Bountytaker

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if I were to wax philosophical for a moment – I wonder whether it’s the genre (super heroes), the medium (City of Heroes) or the nature of the internet which has led to a greater demand for individuality.


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I would definitely lean towards the first two, rather than the last. Whenever I talk to friends about this game, whether they play it our not, they always have these great individual concepts for heroes. Non-players have amazing concepts from their own imagination....players have these great concepts inspired by the games options/design. And everyone I know uses the net, to varying degrees....but some don't have a creative bone in their body.


It would be an interesting study, I have to agree with that.


What I'm curious about, Statesman, is, with this topic in mind: What other ways is the desire for individuality driving your current design philosophy? You obviously talk about it a bit in your paragraph, but mostly you focus on your previous design ideas. What about now? Are individuality promoting systems taking a higher priority, say with power customization moving up the list of additions? Or, is it a last "check" on any new system?

I'm always intrigued to hear more about the long-term design/goals for this game....it provides more proof as to why this game outclasses so many others.

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There's one that I haven't seen here. During the 5th column event, I suggested on the boards that they put in event specific badges... shortly thereafter the first halloween event occurred, badges and all.

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Wait, huh.......

The first Halloween event was before the 5th/Council event. Actually, the first "event" the game ever had was the 2004 Halloween event.

And, yes, it did have badges.

I put a thread over on the comic/culture forum for the "winners" to post the story/background of their "winning" character.

story time

Oops, almost forgot:

1) Congrats to those that did make it in...

2) Happy B-day LiquidX

Was really hoping Orca had gotten in there.....ah well, someday.

BTW: I thought there were 32 "winners"? The list only has 30...

Did you know....

originally, the only entrance to Striga was in Talos. But, at the time, Talos was the laggiest zone in the game, and so, at the players request, a second entrance was placed in IP.

The hero org. vs. villain org. argument is an interesting one....maybe someone should start a different thread for it.

In case no one does, here's my initial thoughts on it:

Heroes belonging to an overarching organization is really no big deal. Casually aligning yourself with said organization is perfectly acceptable, since basically, all hero organizations have the same goal: fighting evil.

So, whether Superman stops a robbery for the good of the citizenry, or in the name of the JLA, doesn't really matter, since he's performing the duties of a hero either way.


Villain groups are different, IMO, since the goal of the organizations are usually not as simple as "fighting good". Instead, villain organizations goal's are personal happiness though any means(evil means being the easiest). Following this philosophy, any villain that joins an organization with a villainous head, *should* be looking to promote the goals of the organization OVER their personal ones. If not, then they shouldn't join up.

So, if Destro joins COBRA, then robs banks for his own personal gain, while letting COBRA'S coffers dry up, he's not fulfilling his duty, and should be thrown out!

Back to CoH/CoV: As heroes, whether we work for Freedom Corps or not, our actions are fine, as they live up to the ideals of that org. As villains, if we're working for Arachnos, or any of its main lts., and our actions aren't primarily in their interest, we probably shouldn't be joining them, and they shouldn't have us.


Interesting tangent on this topic.....nice job to whoever started it.

Did you know....

...The Tanker power "Unyielding Stance" (the primary mez protection for Inv. tanks), used to be a rooted power. Meaning, when it was toggled on, your character couldn't move.

...(spoiler!) Statesman and Lord Recluse are brothers-in-law!

Grab yourself a bit more salt....here's a bit more info from Bridger over on the UK forums.

One poster stated:

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I thought it would be better if the Patron Powers give each AT powers suitable for them, as opposed to just giving them the same, so basically each Patron has 4*4 powers = 16, 4 each AT...


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And Bridger's reply was:

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That's how I understand it, although there are 5 ATs, so it'll be 5 pools with 4 powers in each pool, as far as I know.

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So, from what Bridger knows, Ghost Widow has one power pool for each AT, with 4 powers in each pool. Scirocco has one power pool for each AT, with 4 powers in each pool. Capt. Mako has one power pool for each AT, with 4 powers in each pool.

And so on, and so on.......

Which would mean that, once you've selected your Patron, you only get to choose from 4 powers.


Again, you took the salt, so you agree to go easy on each other with this info

Did you know....

There was a different "Sister Psyche" that handed out the TF in independence port. Aurora Borealis, who had the mind of the current Sister Psyche trapped inside of her, was the TF contact, and a hero named Malaise was the trainer.

Also, did you know that there was a special TF in the game given by Calvin Scott (Aurora Borealis' husband), that explained how the current Sister Psyche was returned. In the TF, you fought Malaise. That TF was removed with I4.

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takes out tent and prepares for warfare flames from others

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Um....tents are flammable......so, good luck with that then

Before you read the rest of this, please take this grain of salt.....


Okay, now, here's a little more info from over on the UK forums, where this is also being discussed:

In response to this comment from a poster:
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I'd very strongly think that we will have more than 4 choices even per AT, 4 is too limiting if you can not change the pool at all.


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Bridger, the UK board mod, said this:

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I believe that each Patron offers four powers to each AT (in the same way that each Ancillary pool for heroes offers four powers).

As Positron has said, the choice of Patron is permanent, but I see no reason why you won't be able to change the actual powers you choose to take via a respec - your choice of Primary and Secondary power sets is permanent, but you can change the powers you choose from those sets via a respec.

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Now, since you took the grain of salt, you are hereby forced to recognize that Bridger is not the final authority on this, and therefore, his answer should not be treated as rock-solid fact. However, he is more likely to have the correct final info than most of us here, so his answer is notable....


Enjoy

A bit off topic, here, but some things I was contemplating:

1) I wonder if this design decision was influenced in any way by the possibility of a "Legend's System" or post lvl 50 content?

2) I'm curious to see if this same design is applied to heroes when/if they receive a "Legend's System"?


Just wanted to spit that out.....feel free to return to the normal discussion

I'm quite shocked by this, partly because I spoke recently with Arctic via PM, and get any type of vibe.

As said before, you came with big shoes to fill, and you did so admirably. I thoroughly enjoyed your work, and I hope you'll keep us up to date on what else you'll be doing.

I do regret that you never really got to write you OWN story. Granted, you put your mark on the villain backgrounds you did, but I was really looking foward to a completely Artic_Sun imagined article. If the little newspaper piece on the PDP rave flier was any indication, you've got some great skills that would have translated well.

So, good luck Arctic, and Alexa....here's hoping you continue to find challenges and fun in your future endeavors. Stop by once in a while and let everyone know what you're up to.

Best wishes



(BTW: Nice to see ya Gil, even if it is under not so happy circumstances. Might want to be carefull about when you pop by, otherwise you'll start getting called a bad omen )

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Skills are shelved.

Inventions? :-)

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Not to be a jerk, but....this is a perfect example of the kind of info drop that leads to the situation we had with the I7 preview. Back when I7's info was released, and the boards got slightly chaotic, I was trying to explain how I felt the way some designs were announced played a part in that reaction. This looks like an example of the bad method. When you hint and suggest multiple design ideas, even with little context and fanfare, people remember. They become rumor and hope and wishes. Eventually, if enough don't come through, a lot of people will feel it.

Basically, when you give this little bit of info, with no context, it creates tons and tons of speculation. People will start attaching suggestions for it, and speculate what issue it will be with.

Then, if it has to get shelved, or takes extremely long to come about, it'll get added to the list of things people are disappointed about. Eventually, the boards hit a breaking point and go haywire with doom and gloom and arguments.

Now, of course, the forum members have a responsibility too. We have to be wary of how and what we do with this info, and we shouldn't get carried away. Let's not assume and start dreaming of systems that may not even be in the opening stages. Take Statesman's statement at face value, no more.

Still, IMO, this is an example of a bad method of passing along info to the players, even if it is supposed to be fun.



Otherwise, I am intrigued by an invention system I also agree with those that are wary of a loot system.

I thought it was another solid addition, although I agree that the Skull's backgrounder had a bit more flair to it. Still, more solid work from you, Arctic....keep em coming.


BTW: Really liked the "rave flier" for the V-Day event. Good to see some non-background stuff out there. I didn't say it before, but nice work on that one too

Thought I would give it a try....

I'm not a big fan of Valentine's Day, though....


Almost put up a heart that had not-so-nice things to say about WoW....but chickened out

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That was my assumption as well. Granted, it's late, I can't remember where I heard it, but somewhere I thought States or Recluse or somebody said that i7 for CoH would also be i1 for CoV. Combining issues like that might mean one issue would have a little more hero content or villain content, but the first issue after CoV launched would be to get the villains to level 50 and bring the hero graphics up to CoV's levels.


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I'm almost 100% positive the quote said the I6 would actually be the first "combine issue". Meaning I6 was really CoH I6/CoV I1, and so on.

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It makes sense to even them up before working on them evenly. I have no doubt that future updates will be more or less even, the next may even be a bit CoH weighted

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But, as others have pointed out, even after I7, CoV will still have fewer zones and fewer powersets.

So, if I8 came out, and it had mostly zones and powersets for CoV, I'm sure the argument could/will be made again that CoV was behind and needed to catch up.

Which is why I wouldn't mind hearing from a dev what their vision of "caught up" is, and, perhaps, when they forsee that happening.

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"...while CoV was still under pre-release development" is the bit that I (still) think everyone's missing. Don't misunderstand, I'm not exactly thrilled that CoH isn't getting more with the new issue. I'm not terribly disappointed either since I've personally yet to exhaust the existing game... but that's a whole 'nuther issue.

I just think the "seperate developer team" quote was a specific statement addressing a specific timeframe and that people have subsequently blown it way out of proportion.


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Yep...my comments fall exactly into line with what you've said.

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States: It would have been beneficial to have this cleared up earlier. I totally admit to working under "assumptions", so much fault lies with me, but the fact that many others here feel just as disappointed suggests that the info we were given wasn't as clear as the dev team thought.

Ok, now, where are we going from here? Will Issue 8 be a combined issue? Issue 9? How many more content issues do you currently see as being necessary for CoV to catch up? A little heads up would go along way.

And, how about clearing up the "time issue". A lot of quotes from you/dev team are being thrown around re: the time between Issues now. But, much like the "combined issues" statements, it's pretty unclear. Has the dev team nailed down an expected range of time between issues, and will that range of time include Issue 8?

Finally, just noticed that shields, newspaper missions, and server transfer continue to be a ways off (at least, that's what posts from devs suggest). I can personally say, then, that I do not know what the next big design addition is for CoH. I'm willing to bet a lot of others around here wouldn't have any good guesses either. So, is there any chance you'd put out a list of the top 5 additions currently in development for each game? Just so that in the future, we aren't surprised when we find out that X feature was put on the back burner.


Thanks for your time

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dev speak "...but we have all this great stuff in development that we are going to let you all in on "soon"..."

Two Issues later

/dev speak "...we still have some great things in store for you, but I can't give too many details now. You'll be hearing more about it "soon"....."

Another Issue passes

/dev speak "...yep, we haven't forgotten about you. There is some really great stuff on the drawing board that you'll be hearing about "soon". No, really. I have it all listed on the white board behind, just be patient."

Another issue rolls around.............

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That's not what usually disappoints me. Its when I find out that, in some little thread, or in some unknown article, a dev says that a feature has been indefinitely delayed.

Usually, someone else has found the comment, and drops it on me in some thread....and my heart breaks a little

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So, bascially, we have NO idea what's still being worked on for CoH. Perhaps a list of the top five things currently being developed for CoH would help us. It could be updated monthly or bi-monthly, perhaps with explainations as to why things drop off or move up.


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Thats asking an awful lot Bounty. As it is we're lucky if we get patch notes that aren't filled out mostly by players. Then there's the whole Known Issues section of the site that is grossly incomplete...


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Yeah, it's a long shot...and there are some "cons" to be worked out....


But I still think it'd be a great PR move, and would help control some of the assumptions/emotions on the board.


Oh...and it should work out better than the "vague" hints about development that the devs drop on the boards anyway.

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Jack himself said that there were CoH-specific pieces considered for I7 release... so, fine. Throw the heroes a (small) bone, one that won't disrupt I7 and I8 schedules too much. Pick one nifty piece of CoH functionality that's close to release, isn't mired hip-deep in balance issues, and can be easily "broken off" from the rest of the I8 development (and QA) effort. Then, bend the unwritten rule that content updates get saved for updates, and work that chunk into a patch when it's finished... preferably, no more than a month or so after I7 goes live.

There. Done.

That's all I'm asking for right now, the rest can wait. Is that such an unreasonable request? I don't think it falls under the heading of "Issue Hysteria".


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Well said.

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Is the plan to make CoH a "finished" game, because that's not what I expected from an MMO.


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Ok, this is the sort of conversation thread that is going to cause the devs to roll their eyes at us.

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It wasn't directed at the devs....it was directed at a poster who suggested that CoV needs more attention because CoH is practically "finished".

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The people complaining need to lighten up. CoH has five issues of content for you to play with; it's almost a finished game, for all intents and purposes (I say 'almost' because of the lack of 35-40 content to get people over the hump). It was known for a long time that I7 was going to be devoted primarily to completing the villain game.

It's been four months because the bar is set higher. CoH just had to install the 40-50 content at first. Taking all its other updates into consideration, CoV has a lot more to add than just a few new zones and missions. The Patron Powers surely required a fair bit of development, as do the new villain power sets.

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Then I guess I would like to know:

1) Is the plan to make CoH a "finished" game, because that's not what I expected from an MMO.

2) How many "issues" is it going to take to complete CoV? 3? 5? I was under the impression that the issues were "combined". If not, that's fine. I would just like to know how long I'll be waiting for significant additions to CoH, so I can maybe plan a break from it.


And, again, I understand that the process to upgrade CoV is the same as it was for CoH back in '04.....but don't forget, back in '04, the devs didn't have a bunch of subscribers playing another game while CoH was being improved. That is the case now, however, and should probably be factored into any planning for updates.