Beef_Cake

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So what you're saying is that there can only be two types of badges: Special event badges that only exist for a limited time and long-term badges that should be available to all characters at any time (not counting perhaps some minimum requirement, such as level)? Why can't there be more types?

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I never said there coulnd't be more types then the two I described.

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Why can't there be tutorial-only badges?

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I never said there coundn't be a tutorial badge. But I went through tutorial but I never received a badge for it, and I even killed over 100 contaminated, but because no datamining was in play when these badges went live I could not go back and defeat what I had to, to earn the badge.

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Should the devs be forced to make every new thing they add to the game available to all existing characters, regardless of level?

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Of course, that why we pay our monthly dues, to enjoy content.

Since we are talking about badges I will try to use an example here.

If the devs put in a badge such as the Halloween badges this upcoming year and they say well lets put it in a zones that require you to be level 20+ then that excludes all heroes below level 20 and it would not be fair to them as they play and enjoy this game as the rest of us do.

Yeah some badge do require you to be of a certain level to gain access to the zone such as Creys Folly, but those badges are always there so this would not fall under my example. Because eventually you will get to the level to get these badges.

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Just as it doesn't make sense to have the event badges available outside of the events

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Well I have these badges, but I am not against the devs bringing them back the following year, that way people who were not here do get the chance to get them again. Im not like the Anti-Isolator people who are in this thread who are dead set against the Isolator being available to members who missed it.

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it doesn't make sense to have tutorial badges available outside of the tutorial.

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I agree with you. but again I say, many preI2 never had the fair chance in getting this badge so they should be given the chance to earn this badge as a new hero can.

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I have no problem with the devs adding another badge for killing 100 contaminated outside of the tutorial

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Im glad you do not mind, as Im sure the heroes who missed this badge appreciates your opinion.

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but part of Isolator is that you get it with a new character, and changing that would destroy the badge.

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No, it would not destroy the badge. If preI2 heroes were awarded this badge and then leave the badge where it is as it is, no harm would be done, because back in Issue 2 if Im not mistaken, you were forced to go through Outbreak as you are now in CoV. So everyone had to go through Outbreak so I feel the preI2 heroes should get the badge.

I feel if the devs would just award the badge to all the pre issue 2 heroes, the Isolator threads would stop all together.

And the devs should really consider adding something in the tutorial letting people know of badges. making them aware of them because it is a part of the game.

But thats my opinion.

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The Isolator badge is a "defeat #" badge! It is NOT a special event badge and in no way compares to Celebrant, or the Winter, Halloween, or Valentine's Day Event badges, because it's a totally different type of badge!

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um, all of the holloween and Winter badges from the first year were defeat badges. So they are the EXACT same type of badge as Isolator.

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Ok lets get technical since you seem to be doing so.

Yes, they are all kill (x) badges. So in a way it is in the same .

But it is not the same because Isolator is not a Event badge as the others are such as the Winter, Halloween and the celebrant badge.

These badges were for a limited time. Isolator is still currently in the game. The special event badges are not. So in fact they are not exactly the same. Only way they are similar is because of the kill (x) attached to them.

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But outbreak is a limited time thing - just like the events. Once your past outbreak, your are past it. Even if other people can still enter it, they cannot re-enter it.

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It is still not a special event, I don't care how you look at it.

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The Isolator badge is a "defeat #" badge! It is NOT a special event badge and in no way compares to Celebrant, or the Winter, Halloween, or Valentine's Day Event badges, because it's a totally different type of badge!

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um, all of the holloween and Winter badges from the first year were defeat badges. So they are the EXACT same type of badge as Isolator.

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Ok lets get technical since you seem to be doing so.

Yes, they are all kill (x) badges. So in a way it is in the same .

But it is not the same because Isolator is not a Event badge as the others are such as the Winter, Halloween and the celebrant badge.

These badges were for a limited time. Isolator is still currently in the game. The special event badges are not. So in fact they are not exactly the same. Only way they are similar is because of the kill (x) attached to them.

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When Issue 2 and the entire badge system was introduced the devs really should have awarded Isolator to ALL characters created between Issue 1 and 2, because as the badge says, we all "began our career on a high note."

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Only if you actually defeated 100 contaminated in Outbreak, and odds are most people didnt. So no, it shouldn't have been auto-awarded.

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Actually if this badge was given, not earned but given to every her oin this game for creating a account, this badge alone would introduce to the many new and old players that badges can be earned in this game.

So I would not see a problem with this as well.

I defeated well over 100 contaminated when I started this game. Because when I first started this game I know I ran the mission with friends many times to help each other out, not counting the contaminated you had to kill from the other contacts.

So do I deserve this badge? I think so, but I do not have it and I know many others fell into this category as they too did not receive the badge when badges went live because no datamining was done.

So to eliminate many problems maybe they should just award this badge to all new heroes and old for having the game, a welcoming badge if you will. because every hero start off his career on a high note

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As it stands, my pre-issue 2 toons have no chance whatsoever to get Isolator.

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Each and every ONE of my characters have no chance whatsoever to get Hallow Spirit, Malleus, Celebrant, Toothbreaker, and the like.

So ... your point is?

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Where did you see someone say these events will never happen again?

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Celebrant, at least, is inherently an event that will never happen again. Sure, COV may have it's own parallel - but it won't be the same badge.

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What makes you think another celebrant badge might not come for the year 2 or 3 or 5 ect..ect.. If it does then people will have the chance to get the badge again providing they do not change the art work or description.
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There has to be some reason why you feel you will never get the chance to get these badges on your heroes.

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"The event during which they were available has ended." Sounds simple enough to me.

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Really? WOW! I didn't know that thanks! My question still stands what makes you think these events will not happen again in the future? If they do then guess what, you and everyone else will have the chance to get them for a limited time yet again.

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See right now, Isolator is known by everyone, so if they roll a new toon, they can easily delete and re-roll. For us veterans who missed it, we do not have that option now, because if we were to reroll, we would be giving up even more badges then what we would be gaining and not have the chance to earn what we lost until the special events rolled around again.

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If you're so sure that the events WILL roll around again that you can dismiss my entire "what about X, Y, or Z event badges" concern ... then hurry up, delete, and re-roll.

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If I knew for sure then everyone else would know don't you think so?

And even if I knew it was coming out again I still would not re-roll i've spent too much time and effort into collecting what I have not to start over.

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As it stands, my pre-issue 2 toons have no chance whatsoever to get Isolator.

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Each and every ONE of my characters have no chance whatsoever to get Hallow Spirit, Malleus, Celebrant, Toothbreaker, and the like.

So ... your point is?

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Where did you see someone say these events will never happen again?

There has to be some reason why you feel you will never get the chance to get these badges on your heroes.

My point is, one of the winter badges were re-issued to the game, so it is very possible you will see them in the upcoming events.

At least with the special even badges you have a chance to get them again in the upcoming years if you missed it.

Isolator has been here since issue 2 and has not been avaiable to people who missed it, so they can actually say there is no chance in the world they will get it until someone actually makes it avaiable in game.

See right now, Isolator is known by everyone, so if they roll a new toon, they can easily delete and re-roll. For us veterans who missed it, we do not have that option now, because if we were to reroll, we would be giving up even more badges then what we would be gaining and not have the chance to earn what we lost until the special events rolled around again.

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Another idea for Isolator!

The Abandoned Sewer System is underneath the entire city, so why not have an entrance in Outbreak!

IIRC, heroes that reach level 35 can enter the Abandoned Sewers. They would have to find the route to Outbreak and would exit a manhole cover in the street. They would be autoexemped to level 1 upon entry.

They could take out 100 contaminated, get the badge, and the only way back to the city would be back through the Abandoned Sewers.

The manhole would only work for L35+ so level 1s wouldn't be able to use it.

This would also be a way to help teach friends that are new to the game. You could meet them in the tutorial and show them the ropes!

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Liquid & Celtic,
What do you think of this idea?

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I hate it. Why? Well, because it lets the squeaky wheel get the grease.

You [censored], whine, moan, and further prod just to get something your way, and people are [censored] tired of it! You're being selfish in having a "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!" mindset, and what's it for? A bit of virtual stupidity!

In two-five years, this game may not even exist anymore. Hell...it may not exist as of this Sunday, and yet, all you can think about is wasting, yes, that's right, WASTING, company resources for a tiny, insignificant item that doesn't give you anything other than a title (one that most people won't bother using).

Seriously...nobody is going to think "Ooooh...that guy has isolator AND all of the other badges...he must be cool"; if anything, they'll be saying, "Wow...he's taken the time to get isolator and every badge in the game? It looks like somebody needs a life."

As to wasting company resources, many of you have said, "What about the other events? Pocket D? PDP?" Well...I have news for you--I don't like those either! The PDP actually had a use, though. It was a preliminary test for the devs to see how they could make, and intrigue people into going to, a neutral zone. That zone would later turn into Pocket D, which is a neutral zone which has actual use for both villains and heroes.

The isolator badge, though? It has no real use.

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Damn hoss, could you be any more rude?

people are sharing ideas and thoughts and all you can do is criticize.

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Look at what I quoted...it asked me my opinion on it.

I gave my opinion, and you may not like it, but it's not going to change. It's called the other side of an arguement.

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Fair enough, but your opinion doesn't give you the right to be rude about it. There are more productive ways to get your opinion across to someone without making them feel like crap.

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What I wouldn't be adversed to, however, is Puretones suggestion. Setting up two "versions" of the badge, with alternative text. If you get one version, you wouldn't be able to get the other. While it would be defeating the purpouse of having Isolator as an "Easter Egg" of sorts, I think it would make for an acceptable compromise.

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I too would be happy with this idea, as long as there is a equal to the isolator.

Have the badge named the same "Isolator" but as you said have 2 different descriptions. This I could live with and Im sure others would.

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Another idea for Isolator!

The Abandoned Sewer System is underneath the entire city, so why not have an entrance in Outbreak!

IIRC, heroes that reach level 35 can enter the Abandoned Sewers. They would have to find the route to Outbreak and would exit a manhole cover in the street. They would be autoexemped to level 1 upon entry.

They could take out 100 contaminated, get the badge, and the only way back to the city would be back through the Abandoned Sewers.

The manhole would only work for L35+ so level 1s wouldn't be able to use it.

This would also be a way to help teach friends that are new to the game. You could meet them in the tutorial and show them the ropes!

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Liquid & Celtic,
What do you think of this idea?

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I hate it. Why? Well, because it lets the squeaky wheel get the grease.

You [censored], whine, moan, and further prod just to get something your way, and people are [censored] tired of it! You're being selfish in having a "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!" mindset, and what's it for? A bit of virtual stupidity!

In two-five years, this game may not even exist anymore. Hell...it may not exist as of this Sunday, and yet, all you can think about is wasting, yes, that's right, WASTING, company resources for a tiny, insignificant item that doesn't give you anything other than a title (one that most people won't bother using).

Seriously...nobody is going to think "Ooooh...that guy has isolator AND all of the other badges...he must be cool"; if anything, they'll be saying, "Wow...he's taken the time to get isolator and every badge in the game? It looks like somebody needs a life."

As to wasting company resources, many of you have said, "What about the other events? Pocket D? PDP?" Well...I have news for you--I don't like those either! The PDP actually had a use, though. It was a preliminary test for the devs to see how they could make, and intrigue people into going to, a neutral zone. That zone would later turn into Pocket D, which is a neutral zone which has actual use for both villains and heroes.

The isolator badge, though? It has no real use.

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Damn hoss, could you be any more rude?

people are sharing ideas and thoughts and all you can do is criticize.

I agree with you, because seeing a progress bar you can not complete makes my OCD kick in and my neck starts twitching...lol

But hey, if they do not add it no big deal, but if they do its just another badge on the belt

Im just glad I didnt start farming Amy in the pvp zones only to not get the badge.

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Thanks Posi, you just saved me a boat load of Amy farming...lol

Its nice to know that we will have a future way of getting this badge.

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Actually, he just said that he was making the badge impossible to get until they add some cabal Rogue side. Not that they will.

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Im sure we will have a future way, we always do. or that badge would not even have a bar on the villain side.

But hey, thanks for clearing that up for everyone

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Another idea for Isolator!

The Abandoned Sewer System is underneath the entire city, so why not have an entrance in Outbreak!

IIRC, heroes that reach level 35 can enter the Abandoned Sewers. They would have to find the route to Outbreak and would exit a manhole cover in the street. They would be autoexemped to level 1 upon entry.

They could take out 100 contaminated, get the badge, and the only way back to the city would be back through the Abandoned Sewers.

The manhole would only work for L35+ so level 1s wouldn't be able to use it.

This would also be a way to help teach friends that are new to the game. You could meet them in the tutorial and show them the ropes!

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Now this idea I really like. But I think the auto exemplar would have to be level 2 because heroes in Outbreak can reach level 2 by doing the tutorial missions. So we wouldnt want to take away a level from the newcomers.


/signed!

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For the Overseers badge (the eyeballs are the Rularuu Sentries, the boss Sentries are Overseers), have you tried killing Overseers that are at least level 40 or higher? In CoH, they don't naturally spawn under level 40, so that might be what's causing the problem of no badge showing up.

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Yes, Im aware of the difference, Im a badge nut I should

But to answer your question our mobs were spawning at level 42 so yes, they were the right overseers. They just weren't counting towards the badge.

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This is awarded for defeating Rularru Sentry Bosses. Is there a mission in CoV that has access to Rularru Sentry Bosses? I don't know off hand.

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Yes, there's at least 1 from Technician Naylor. It's "Rescue Rimsey" in the 35-40 contact chain.

Edit: Just to clarify further, it does indeed spawn the eyeball Overseer bosses.

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And to make you aware of the situation, I tried to get this badge yet again yesterday and killed over 20-25 bosses and the bar never appeared. I have defeated over 200 so far according to my count and have not yet received a badge for this.

So I would think it is not working.

Thanks Posi, you just saved me a boat load of Amy farming...lol

Its nice to know that we will have a future way of getting this badge.

hey if I could get enough heroes to donate their temp powers for a few villains, I would gladly get some teams going. But Im not about to go around asking everyone in broadcast to cast a Amy pet so I can kill her...lol

I would not do this unless I have a team of villains that would join me on Pinnacle to do such a task.

I have 2 accounts and a few others that I could work on getting the temp power which some of them already have them. So it could work. But not without others to team with me to get the badge along side me.

If I make the effort to get this badge I want others to benefit from it as well.

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I just had a thought.

"Kill X" badges - they normally count the efforts of ALL team-members, yes?

...

Has anyoen considered rolling a new hero, doing the whole tutorial EXCEPT THE LAST MEETING WITH THE FINAL CONTACT ... and then teamign with a friend's L50 main ... before happily heading off to bash Contaminated skulls?

...

Might that be a workable way to get those badges, without requiring a change in code ...? Or are my fears of "different zone, doesn't count" all too true ...??

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Holy crap, would this work? I'm not sure. I'll tell you what though - Em, if you're on tonight, I'll be glad to test this. If it works, I'll post it - and then everyone and their grandmother who wants it but doesn't have it better get it because you can guess they'll batten down that hatch quickly.

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This will not work, all participating heroes must be in the same zone in order for the kills to count.

Sorry, but it would be a nice way to make it work, but they would have to recode the rest of the game for this to work as well. And that will not happen.

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Wow, there's a lot for me to catch up on here. ^_^ I hope nobody minds if I don't reply in entirety to their comments, but it seems like that's a lot of ground to cover.

Firstly, Beef_Cake:

Unfortunately, I don't think the exemplaring system was created to allow players to go back and access content they may have otherwise outlevelled (although it did have that additional side-effect.) Exemplaring was, indeed, brought about as a kind of 'reverse sidekick' facility; i.e. it allows a higher hero to team on the level of a lower hero. Having said that, Positron did - at one point - show some support for the popular 'flashback' notion, even going so far as to adopt the term 'flashback' itself from a forumgoer that originally suggested the premise.

As I understand it, the flashback premise is currently dead in the water; however, then again, so is the SSOCSS. Therefore, I am much more inclined to believe that this may be a result of such issues as time, resources, and techinical implementation difficulties.

I would say that as it is possible to pick up souvenirs and badges by exemplaring - a practice that could have been cut short by Cryptic - that at the very least, they do not mind people revisiting missed content. (If anything, they went to some lengths to try and ease problems exemplared heroes suffered with the TFs.)

The crux of this particular debate would appear to be: do the Developers want you to be able to go back and revisit missed content by sending the same character 'back in time'; or do they want you to experience that content with a reroll or alternate character? The answer to that - being cynical - most likely lies in whichever answer offers to keep people subscribed the longest. (Bearing in mind that overall player satisfaction can have quite some bearing on the matter.)

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Well here is where I got the impression of the flashback and exemplar system and why I say what is was originally for...

Positron Answer On Flshback
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What is up with the FLashBack system?

The FLashBack system was a system I designed that enabled you to go back to Contacts you missed and do their Story Arcs and Missions in a “FLashBack mode” where you Auto-exemplared to the mission’s level.

This is an example of something that got half-implemented. The Exemplar system was born of this, and because we put in Exemplars, we needed to make them work with Task Forces. And because we needed them to work with Task Forces, we couldn’t make them exploitable, thus the “auto-boot” when you lost your Aspirant.

What happened there? A lot of disgruntled players. Since FLashBack kept getting back-burnered due to other, higher priority items, we put in the Auto-exemplar feature for Task Forces. It was the least we could do since we put badges on them and took away the souvenirs.

So this system has been slowly implemented. Perhaps someday the rest will come to pass too. (Fingers crossed).


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So if players were not meant to expieience all of the content then why was this sytem even thought up or why was the exemplar system even introduced? Because it gave 2 purposes.

1. player could go back and do things they missed to earn a badge.

2. more teaming options for friends and others.

Yet the exemplar system still does not allow you to obtain the Isolator which was a let down to many of the badge collectors but also a great plus for us in teaming.

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Em... bro your analogy (while I understand your point) doesn't fit.

We're talking about a (realistically) pointless badge. It's not nor will ever be part of an accolade. It's just one more bauble. Do you need it to boost your ego that bad? ::ducks::
**THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS IN REPLY TO ISOLATOR IN IT'S CURRENT FORM WHICH IN ITS DESCRIPTION *CLEARLY* STATES HOW YOU GET IT**

Now that that's out of the way... see my other post a little ways up about how they SHOULD change the badge (remove Isolator in its current form) to make it something that CAN be rewarded to pre-badge era toons and still make sense.

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Well keep in mind these badges are not pointless to the many players out there that collect tese badges on a everyday basis. or use badge hunting as a part of the game to keep themselves occupied until the next issue.

And you are right, it will never be a part of a accolade. But that is not a valid reason as to why it couldnt be made available other then Outbreak.

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With exemplaring this allowed you to go back and complete certain TFs you missed, Trials..ect..ect.. all in which offered a badge for you to award yourself with once you have completed it.

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I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that exemplaring was instituted so that high level SG players could play with lower level SG players (or non-SG for that matter). The 'content experience' was an added benefit.

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Actually the exeplar system was created from the idea of the flashback system which would allow players to go back and complete missions, contacts and other content they outleveled or missed all together. The teaming with friends was not introduced until the flashback system was put on the back burner and then exeplaring was created as a partial fix for people to both team with lower level friends as well as completing TFs and trials that they have missed.

But all in all the system was originally meant to aalow a player to go back and complete content they missed.

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I think they just need to auto award this badge.....

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I will take it ayway they offer it.

Be it a flashback system, Giant Contaminated Monsters, a Portal mission I do not care. I will do what it takes to get it.

Not a copy and paste answer huh?

I say BS, I have received numerous email replies from GM with that exact response word for word.

So if its not a copy and paste scenario, then it must be some little monkey sitting on a branch and the GM asks the monkey what to say and they type in what the monkey told them to say.

But all jokes aside, the GMs on this game know nothing of the game itself, they seem to be employees hired from the street only to read from a computer program and give you response on things they find from the computer, they do not know the game and therefore can not answer the player base with a true answer other then what some lame computer answer they get from their machine.

I too wish they would hire a staff that knows more about the game rather then a person who knows nothing.

Hell I bet 90% of the player base knows more about this game then the GMs and it truly is sad.

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Replayability? It's not often that I disagree with LiquidX, but here I have to. CoH is a roleplaying game, and that element plays strongly for me. I have a main character, and this is the character I want to accomplish things with. If I miss a badge mission or story arc somewhere in the 30s (and this has happened, to me and some friends, because the story arc system was bugged to hell), I'm supposed to reroll a brand new character and play all the way up to those missions again, just so I can get the badge? Badges damn well better do more than just look pretty if I have to go through that to collect them. "Oops, missed a badge at level 39. Better start over, I was sooooo close that time!"

That's not replayability for the simple fact that many people, myself included, won't participate in such a timesink. Not to mention that constantly watching for the next badge mission can really kill the immersion factor. Who's going to brag about the fact that they have "All the badges, spread over 6 characters!"

Sure replayability is important, but what does it matter what character I replay the game with? I've got almost more hours logged on my main character, a level 50, than my other 3 level 50s combined. THAT'S replayability. Not running through the same generic warehouse full of Skulls or Rikti or Family or Tsoo or CoT, or Malta, or Carnies, or Sky Raiders, or whatever, but actually finding things you like to do in the game (and hopefully doing them more than once), and finding the game continually interesting. If replayability is not established on the player's terms, then it's not replayability. It's just a timesink.

If you like badges, and you like to hunt badges, then you should be able to. No harm in that.

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One of the more common complaints from people on the forums is that simply choosing new powersets is not enough to justify playing through the game. New things to do are needed. The way I see it is that (In my opinion) two important things need to be done:

1) It needs to be impossible to get every single badge on one character.

2) It needs to be impossible to do every single mission with one character. (Or be unable to experience the full scope of the mission if exemplered down/sidekicked up)

What *I* ultimately want to see are branching story arcs, with badges that can't be obtained if you have a different badge.

For example, lets say you have a Contact named... John Jacob Jinglehymer Smith, who asks you to find out what the freaks are up to. The Story arc at some point could branch with a choice. Say, either going to "interrogate" a Freakshow for information, or instead taking a coded message you located to a cryptogropher to decode it.

Your choice would lead to one of two completly different endings, different temp powers, and ultimately a different badge depending on which ending you recieved. Once you got one, you would be unable to get the other for that character.

In the end, I think that would help *improve* the game.

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That is a great idea too, but this will not happen as it would take them more time and money to recreate every contact and put new missions in.

Besides, no one would complain if thats how the game was initially intended. And by doing missions such as you explained to get either one of two badge that would be up to the player's choice in which one he or she earned. basically a equivalent badge to each other.

Example... Player X had badge 1 and Player x has badge1a. Both are from the same contact but are different in the way the mission holder chose to go about doing his or her mission.

Isolator has no equivalent badge, its not by choice all of the prei2 players still in this game has not gotten isolator, it was a bad choice on the dev team to make this one single badge for that 1 zone and thats it.

And to badge collectors there is no equal to the isolator because it doesnt exist, thats why many still want to make this badge obtainable elsewhere other then Outbreak

But I do really like that idea you have, too bad they didn't start off the game like that

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So with all due respect the devs never said you can not experience all of the content in this game with one specific hero. And to tell your player base this as a company would basically in so many words be telling your player base we want more of your money for making new alts.

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With all due respect, I remember reading the post by one of the Devs where they said that.

One character is not supposed to experience all fo the content.

Perhaps someone with better Search-fu than me can find the quote, but I haven't.

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Well if that is the case, then there are many players in this game that have proved the devs wrong when they made this statement.

I know quite a few heroes that have completed everything in this game. So I guess they broke the game design when they completed everything.

So that statement is obvious incorrect wouldn't you think?

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Emerald_Fusion TYed:
Thank you Pamprin! Excellent!


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You're welcome. ^_^ The point stands too... putting aside some of the other anti-Isolator etc. arguements, nobody here is demanding the earth itself be moved just to make a badge available in an ongoing manner. We are really asking for a very small amount of effort... one that also seems appropriate as a means of reversing a so far quite disliked design decision. (i.e. introducing Isolator knowing full well it would not be available to the older characters generally ill-informed newer players.)

And secondly, even if you already have the Isolator badge, introducing a small Portal mission is giving everyone in Paragon another little slice of content with which to occupy themselves... it's not like this is something exclusive to the badge-hunting crowd we are proposing. In fact, I'm thinking that there's a good chance quite a lot of players are going to get a real kick out of facing off against the Contaminated once again, in much the way that it's fun to revisit the Clockwork King later on in the game. Plus, it retroactively strengthens the backstory of Outbreak. Not a bad return for throwing together a few pre-existing assets, eh?

[ QUOTE ]
Pax_Arcana replied:
Ah, but MMOs differ from thigns like Super Mario in this way: new content is always being added. There's always another event to look forward to (or to be surprised with, like the Valentines Day event kinda did - no advanced fanfare, just "oh by the way - have fun, guys!").

I think that enhances replay value. Sure, your first Hero didn't get isolator, and DID get lots of the Halloween badges. That was then, this is now - your NEXT hero can get Isolator, and won't gtthe Haloween badges. Already, right there, wihtout looking at Origin, Power Sets, choices WRT TFs and the like ... your experience with the game will be different.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are quite right there; MMOs are indeed a very different beast. And furthermore, I am only too aware that my own expectations of how a game should work do not gel perfectly with the MMO genre in particular. And you are quite right; it is entirely possible to interpret the creation of two heroes - one 'then', one 'now' - as representing two divergent playing experiences, just by looking at the divide in badges. That is, technically, a different experience second time around; and therefore should incite replay value. ^_^

Now, I'm going to digress a little, but I hope it makes sense. ^_^

Psychologists have spent a fair bit of time looking into the condition of human reasoning, and one of the interesting conclusions some have come to is the idea that most human beings are slave to their unconcious - at least so far as decision making is concerned.

Effectively, a human being will make a decision - driven unconciously, almost on impulse - and then they will begin the process of adding a framework of logic and reason to support their decision, often entirely ignoring rational fact where it cannot be integrated into ideas. Quite simply, people think that they arrive at a conclusion by a process of considered and logical thought; whereas the thruth is, they create their conclusion and then work backwards.

Think of a heated argument you once had with someone; I'm sure the more time you had to think about it, the more reasons you could come up with as to why you were in the right... right?

I said I was going to digress. ^_^

Now, I don't mention this to invalidate your ideas or thoughts on this particular matter. I will say quite clearly - I am human, and I too am subject to this process of conclusion-then-reasoning. What initially started out - in my mind at least - as well-rationed thought became the target of greater introspection. Now, I realise that whilst some of my arguments have merit, they are primarily motivated by two concerns:

1. I am a perfectionist, and in turn a completist. I want to collect all possible badges, for the sake of having all possible badges.

2. I am greatly opposed to the idea of any content, within a game, being made permanently unavailable. (Except, obviously, once the game is 'complete', i.e. everything there is to do, is done - as games are humanly finite. Furthermore, 'finite' is perhaps not the best term to throw around so far as an MMORPG is concerned, but certainly, as I'm sure the clamouring end-game content-crowd will happily tell you - sometimes it is possible to do almost all of everything. ^_^)

I would not blame you if, at this point, you wonder where I'm going with all of this. ^_^

We all have our own unconcious motivations. Mine are above. ^_^ And we have certainly we have talked about the idea that one-shot badges being made readily available once more would create a 'cheapening' effect for those that already own them. (I think your comparison to a coin mint / market situation was quite succint on this point. ^_^) Simply put, to have something in limited supply is a good thing. ^_^ I'm no pop psychologist, but there we have a motivation - that to you, there is a special quality inherent in a limited supply model.

I point this out because I am afraid that if we do not look at our underlying motivations, we are in danger of simply going around in circles. We can be very polite about it, but nothing comes of a discussion (at least I generally find) we are able to understand, *really* understand the opposite side. What I am not afraid of, is to say that I do not understand your side of the discussion. But I do not say that as a critique of your arguments; rather, that my own inability to understand is derived from the mental block that I hold. I am however *willing* to understand; and I would much rather see a proposed solution crafted that addresses the concerns of all (to the best of our ability).

Which is funny, considering how much of this is moot anyway. ^_^

Essentially, what I hope for is more of a directly-logical discussion on the pros and cons of the solutions being thrown about, in terms of some established goals - such as, would such a solution make more players more satisfied with the game, or less? Would such solutions increase the game revenues, or decrease subscription durations? Is it going to ultimately lead to better numbers for Cryptic and a happier population of people can go back and get their character a badge... or if they reroll an alt and get it with them instead?

This, I think, is what really needs to be talked about. ^___^

As I recall, from reading about the badge:log the character in during that month, and get the badge. It's a point of "yeah, I've been playing this character for a loooong time"; a '50 with Celebrant impresses me slightly more than a '50 wihtout that badge. The "With" is obviously an old hand, who's been playing COH for quite a while now.

[ QUOTE ]

Ah, but you see ... I don't have that badge. Never will, either. I wasn't part of COH back then ... I didn't even have a computer that could THINK of running COH at the time, and as for ISP ... lol ... I was still on 56.6 dialup (at best), right up until this past september.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha, no, I totally understand! ^_^ I was on 56k too for the longest time, and it was through NetZero too. (I don't know about everyone else, but I found them to be just a terrible, terrible company. Personally I'm (weirdly) for outsourcing in the sense that the world is globalizing anyway - but for pete's sakes, if you are going to move your entire customer service operation to a country that does speak, as a primary language, that of your customers - then make sure your new employees are bloody well fluent before giving them what is primarily a communication-based role!) And after that, I had to switch my machines around... so now I'm running CoH with an Intel onboard video solution. O.o

As so far as the Celebrant badge goes... I was there, and collected it on my three characters. (Did I mention that already? I felt like I did... weird deja vu moment, sorry.) I think it struck me particularly because compared to many of the other event badges, it just didn't seem that 'special', in terms of the requirements needed to acquire it. But I also think this particular line of thinking came about because I saw 'special' as to mean 'requiring a great feat to acquire', whereas I can see now that you use the term more to describe a limited supply situation. ^_^

[ QUOTE ]

But those beads aren't specific to the year in which you went to Mardi gras. And Mardi Gras is every year, not "once and once only".

So a better analogy, IMO, would be ...oh, heck, how about (since I'm Boston born and bred) your tickets to the World Series, proving you were there when the Sox finally won the darned thing again.


[/ QUOTE ]

See, I knew if I brought in an analogy, it would be 'amended'. ^_^ Hehe, nah... I realise now that when someone modifies another person's analogy, what they are really saying is "Hey, you see the situation like this... but this is how *I* see it." And I see what you are getting at, too; that Mardi Gras is indeed an annual event, as opposed to - say - the Winter Lord event, which has so far taken place all of once.

I think where we diverge here is that I don't see a "Winter Lord Event", so much as an "Xmas Event". Does that make any sense? That essentially, in my eyes, the Winter Lord is as intrinsic and annual (in Paragon) as Christmas trees and candy canes. Similarly, I was rather surprised that they did not bring back the Winter Lord this year (which adds some credence to your view of you things, so far as they are in line with the Dev team, mayhaps) - but this may have also been driven by the "Winter Lord XP Farming Frenzy Bonanza" incident.

So, to try and turn the discussion a little more along the lines I discussed earlier... To me, at least so far as the Winter Lord is concerned; to never reuse that particular piece of content just seems somewhat inefficient and wasteful. I think we are all quite aware by now that Cryptic has (understandably) limited resources, and the time of the Developers is at a premium; therefore, we do not want to waste their time. This is why some would argue against paying any particular attention to the Isolator badge, purely on time and effort grounds.

At the same time, there is a marvelous giant monster that is currently gathering dust. And certainly, repurposing and reusing content is a great deal more efficient than building it entirely from scratch. Sure, we could chalk this one up to some wayward design (mistakes do happen but still; is the situation worth salvaging? And if so, surely players will want to see a badge attached to such a creature?

At this point, it seems to me that the question is more on of "Should we have Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) / Celebrant (3) set of badges?" versus "Should we have a (generic) Celebrant badge?"

As for the baseball analogy... I'm sorry, I really don't know that much about baseball or the World Series! ^_^

[ QUOTE ]

Or, a truly more direct parallel - in the military, being part of a military operation in a specific theater, during a specific span of time, gets you a service ribbon for that place/time/etc. The only folks sporting service ribbons for Desert Storm are the guys who were THERE - even if they were "only" supply clerks sitting a hundred miles or mroe behind the lines. Doesn't matter if you were a 20+ year career soldier, or a wet-behind-the-ears kid fresh from basic training ... if you were playing in that particular sandbox, you get the ribbon for it. They were there, "on the day" if you will, and that's all it takes.

Guys that retired three months before then, or who weren't deployed to Kuwait? No service ribbon. Doesn't matter if they're bloody Generals with more political connections than you could shake a stick at ... no service ribbon. They just weren't there at the time.

That is what event-limited badges are like, IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

Definately getting you now. ^_^ Like you said, once you've missed the bus, you've missed the bloody bus. By way of comparison... I agree, but I feel that if you wait for a while, another bus comes along. ^_^

So I think we see where we are each coming from on this. You espouse a degree of supply-related quality; whereas I believe that (within the practicalities of actually doing the legwork) that it is more important not to limit supply. Now the question becomes, which way is better for the players, the game, and the Developers?

[ QUOTE ]

"Elite" is perhaps a bit strong of a word, but ... I'd say I see a certain value in the very fact that some badges ARE in limited supply.

Perhaps it will help you to understand this, if I point out that in my youth, I was an avid (if horribly naieve and amateur) numismatist. Er, that means "coin collector". I still have a few of my early prizes,too ... hung onto because of their relative scarcity, and/or the interesting historical relevance some have.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, 'elite' is definately a bit too strong... but all the way through this post I've struggled to come up with a better term. So far, "supply-related quality" is the best mouthful I've managed to create... all suggestions gratefully welcomed. ^_^

Also, the example of numismatism did help me understand; thank you for raising it.

[ QUOTE ]

For example - I have an extremely poor-condition coin, a copper disk about an inch-and-a-quarter across; it's an 18th century British copper penny. It's been physically abused (not by me, mind), and looks like it was hit in the middle with something - hit quite hard, because there's a sizeable dent (the fanciful side of me wants to say "maybe it was shot by something", heh). All told - it's just a dented disk of dark brown-black copper. The bit that makes it so special?

The date is "1_96", with either a 7 or 9 in the "_" spot; it's so worn down there, it's very difficult to see. I can tell you, though, that it is definitely a "7" there - because the name on the coin ...? George III. Yeah, the very guy the U.S. rebelled against. Kinda neat to have found that coin, here in America, nearly two hundred years later (at the time I found it tucked away in an old box from a flea market, anyway).

Of course, it's "just" a silly bit of copper, worn almost to unrecognisability, badly dented, and bearing the discolering patina of centuries of neglect and abuse.

I also have some paper currency, oneof which I particularly like;it's Austrian, from sometime around 1930 or 1940 - yep, it's worth precisely diddly as money, 'cause it's in Reichsmarks.

All 500,000 of them.

I like it 'cause it's a paper note with a face value of "one half million", PLUS, it has mild historical significance. In reality, of course, it's justone of many tens of thousands of identical piees of equally-devalued paper. (Inflation being what it was, I'd be surprised if that note would have bought more than a half a loaf of bread, at the time. If that much.)

...

But those two things, still consider to be special. There aren't that many objects of their nature in the world, and I - little insignificant unimportant me - happen to have them. That's incredibly cool.

I view "event limited" badges much the same way. It's like collectible coins ... if you mint more, they stop being worth as much. The value comes from their being in limited supply.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was extremely helpful. ^_^ There's not much for me to say here, as I will be retreading some of my earlier comments. Suffice to say, I have a much better understanding of your position, and I am thankful that you gave the time and effort to help me understand where you are coming from. ^_^ Also, as a side note, I hear those Reichsmarks used to make the most wonderful kites.

[ QUOTE ]

You misunderstand how I respect someone with, for continued example, "Celebrant". I don't assume they're any good at the game ... but I become cognisant of the fact that they've seen thegame grow and develop for far longer than I have. (Or if you prefer, they have weathered more Nerf-Storms than I have. ^_^)


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha, yeah! I'm beginning to think they should have a badge for Regenners, "I Live For The Bat". But I understand; that to hold the Celebrant badge is essentially to carry a visible mark of (relative) veteran status. I think the problem in particular for me lies with the fact that one had to actually log in to lay claim to the badge; as has been mentioned, there are those players dating back as far as the beta that do not, for one reason or another, have the badge. In my mind, I would rather have seen the badge awarded to characters automatically via a data-mining operation; or even have it set so that any character from an account with a suitably-veteran creation date receives the badge the moment they log on. Unfortuntately, without thinking about the matter too much, I also suspect both posibilities are on the side of "More effort than it's worth."

Thinking about it, I suspect I have issues with Celebrant in particular more because of the way it was designed, handled and distributed, rather than anything else. And also, thinking about it... the badge actually has a very distinct number '1' as part of it's design. So I think your idea for a Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) etc. is very much the manner in which the badge will be awarded in future.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd say this shows something:

You have the badges, and so, they're nothing special to you. Thus, you don't see any risk of a loss of value inherent in everyone having them.

I don't have the badges, and thus see them as something special - thus, I immediately become concerned that allowing "cheap knockoffs" to flood the market would cheapen the badges themselves.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... it's definately an interesting idea. ^_^ Truely, I find that once I've picked up a particular badge, my thoughts turn not to how I am going to enjoy said badge, but rather, which badge is next on the list... Having said that, before or after getting the badges, I was unconcerned with any sort of 'cheapening' scenario. If anything, I've always tried to encourage as many people as possible to get the badges; be it by dropping out of a team and giving my spot to someone else for collecting Devilfish; or offering the infamous fortune teller mission to as many people as possible with no concern of monetary reward.

I just enjoy collecting the badges; and in turn I hope to amass the the most complete collection possible, simply for the sakes of having a complete collection. My thoughts as such turn mainly towards helping others do the same, irregardless of whether or not they had the same (time-based) opportunities that I did.

Another interesting point to make, just as I'm thinking about it... When I first started playing CoH, I had a good deal of spare time on my hands. I collected the badges, I had fun with the special events. ^_^ (Although the Halloween and Xmas / Winter Lord events were very difficult, as my two alts were still quite low level as a result of being Isolator-rerolled.) Now, over the last nine months, my time has evaporated to a premium. There have been times when several weeks alone can pass before I log in; I simply don't have the time to do anything else but work myself into an early grave. Sad, but true.

(Thank bloody heavens for things calming down this week, too.)

When Xmas 2005 rolled around, I went and found what information I could about the badges; and then I went at it. One badge for picking up a jetpack; another badge for completing the Heros versus Villains mission. Two badges! Excellent work. Log off.

Except, of course, there were three badges - I'd missed out on Toy Collector, because the information on it was a tad scarce. I only found out about it towards the end of the event, and promptly went to work opening the necessary two hundred presents (which, personally, I thought was something of a silly amount.) It took me just under two hours. And I simply didn't have time to do it with my alts too... so for the first time ever, I missed out on a badge with them.

Now fast-forward to Valentine's Day. I picked up the three badges for my main; and it was fun too, as I was able to do much of the missions alongside a really great villain. ^_^ Even Snaptooth wasn't too bad, as - after being horrified and beaten down by his super-hard third incarnation - I discovered I could keep him knocked down most of the time by throwing Air Superiority into the mix.

My alts?

Didn't even log in with them.

I mean, what was the point? I'm sure there are plenty of forumgoers at this point that think I'm being melodramatic and childish; they may even tell me so. And quite frankly, they may well be right; the idea of having "everything or nothing" is something that popped up in my childhood. (Not, coincidentally, in a Varuca Salt-esque setting.)

But the remaining fact is, as I stated earlier - I am a completist. I am a perfectionist. And to me, missing one badge - just one - is tantamount to failure. It is disheartening, and demoralizing. I want to know that if I play well, and take it slowly, then I can make it through to the end of the game with what amounts to a 100% record - but on two characters now, that is not - and never can be - possible.

So I could have been playing on for a couple of extra hours with my alts, just getting them the Valentine's badges. But I didn't. It no longer appealed to me. So instead, for the first time in a long time, I got back to levelling my main, and getting a little bit closer to the end of the game. I could have been busy entertaining myself with a well-crafted timesink... but not anymore.

Like I said, it's just a tad melodramatic, and bit childish. But I think the question here is not so much "Wow, what on earth is wrong with this person?" so much as "Just what percentage of population does this person actively represent?"

Therein lies to me the answer as to whether or not badges should be retroactively available.

Would it help, or hinder?

[ QUOTE ]

Kungas displayed great understanding:
As for the latter, as a sometimes substitute teacher, you have my sympathy. But compared to the obviously HUGE amount of feeling the obsessive collectors are holding on this issue . . . it just doesn't justify denying them.

I don't understand why Isolator is so important - or why any badge without a power attached is so important. But the people who care most about badges, and there are a lot of them, want this.

Just let them have it.


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I don't think there is anything I can add other than, bravo. Not for agreeing with the aims of the pro-Isolator crowd... but for coming into a charged environment, keeping a clear head, and showing sympathy and pragmatic support to a group that otherwise do not conform to your worldview. em/ applaud. ^_^

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The_PMD answered:
It's honestly the attitude I hear from most of the people in this thread. "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!"

There's no other real reason why the devs should put this in. Some people think they are entitled to ALL the content in the game, and think they're being ripped off if they don't have access to it all. I disagree with you that this is a reasonable position. I think it's very unreasonable and unrealistic. This is an MMO...the devs are attempting to give us an ever-changing ever-expanding world to play in. As such, there is NO WAY that all the content would or should be available to every single toon. Toon and player are different. Isolator is available to every PLAYER: go roll an alt and get it. But to expect any one toon to get all the content is unreasonable. The devs are all but telling us this, and it's central to their concept of the game. Look at the evidence: They have limited edition badges. There are a wide variety of Archetypes. The character creation is the best part of the game. There is virtually no post-50 content. What does it add up to? THE DEVS WANT YOU TO ROLL ALTS! They don't want you to be able to do every bit of content with one character. The game is set up so that you experience all the content across MANY characters.

Giving Isolator to pre-i2 toons isn't going to happen unless the Devs fundamentally change their ideas about how this game is to be played and enjoyed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... I still think that 'Varuca Salt' is a bit harsh. She was the greediest of the greedy; a child spoiled rotten to the core. And I'm certainly not looking to stir the pot, but it seems to me that the louder, more brash responses had, so far, come from the anti-Isolator side of things. (Although to be fair, I am biased; also, it seems that in this respect, things have evened recently or even gone completely the other way with some more... 'impassioned' persons throwing their hat into the ring.)

Now, you raise some interesting points, and I don't think I am going to be able to answer all of them in this post. But I do look forward to talking about it a little bit more in future. Suffice to say, I think you are right that the Developers want to push forward altoholicism; after all, that was the very reasoning behind the creation of the Kheldians and whatever other epic archtypes may be coming down the pipeline.

Let's just say, I agree in principle to the idea that not every character is going to be able to enjoy every piece of content. That makes sense to me... I think the problem I have is that I do not agree with where the lines are being drawn that divide one player's experience from another. To expand on this...

To begin with, every player cannot experience all of the content. When you first roll a character, you must pick an origin; and that origin determines the first (five?) levels of content that you experience. There is no way, at present nor I doubt in future, to change your origin and enjoy a different... 'path' of origin-based content. And this is just the start; the Devs have been talking for some time about introducing far more origin-based material outside of that first introductory experience.

Heck, now players even get origin-based temporary powers to set out with! I never got that when I started. ^_^

However, and here is an important difference, I feel: we do not mind this so much; because there are no long-lasting implications of that early content. Irrespective of being a Technology Blaster or Magic Controller or a Natural Scrapper; one will still be able to enjoy the same task forces, collect the same badges...

To put it another way - despite this 'seperation of content', everyone is still in the same boat. This is something (as seen in my choice of formatting!) that I think needs to be strongly emphasized. I don't mind that you got to do missions only a Science hero gets to do; you know what? I've got some Mutant missions, and *you* don't get to do those.

There are no Haves and Have-Nots; just a Swastika-esque situation where all paths, though different, ultimately lead to the same destination.

I would *love* to see more path-dependant content. I would love to see more origin-specific missions, more AT-specific objectives... to me, that seems like a really great reason to go back, roll a new character and enjoy everything the game has to offer from a totally new perspective! Some elements of this approach are already to be seen in the Kheldian AT.

But this not the case with, to my mind, the current badge situation. What we have here is a problem whereby an activity - that I am almost *sure* is designed to take advantage of a certain anal-retentive (here's hoping the censor didn't just eat that) mindset - actively works against the very people it is aimed at. And it seems like a very small degree of effort need be expended to resolve this problem.

What I see - again, coloured by own experiences - is a problem where, at present, there is a group of first-class heroes, and a group of second-class heroes. And for an utterly arbitrary reason - the creation date - one group of heroes may NEVER attain something the other group has. You want to set it up so that the game provides replay value by presenting multiple content paths? Go for it! You want to give the game replay value by haphazardly and actively introducting uneccesary divides into the player population? Hmm... I can't say that seems like the best way of promoting a reroll-replay approach to me.

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Excellent Post if I may say so myself. I couldn't have said it any better thank you!

But I can say this, I have talked with many in game and read quite a few posts in this thread saying that no one is to experience all of the content and to ask for that is unreasonable.

Well I have to say this, if this was the intent of the developers of this game then why did they introduce "exemplaring"

Easy, to allow players to go back and lower themselves to play with other friends and heroes to experience the content they couldn't before exemplaring was introduced.

With exemplaring this allowed you to go back and complete certain TFs you missed, Trials..ect..ect.. all in which offered a badge for you to award yourself with once you have completed it.

So with all due respect the devs never said you can not experience all of the content in this game with one specific hero. And to tell your player base this as a company would basically in so many words be telling your player base we want more of your money for making new alts.

If I recall the devs did say there is a lot of content in this game and it is possible to miss certain things and that is to be expected, but they never said you can not experience it all. Thus exemplaring was made available

I too am a completist and I feel the same as many avid badge collectors, I have completed "everything" in this game except for the isolator and I would like the chance to get this badge to complete my hero.

I have every contact completed, I have every souvenir, I have had all the temp powers, the only thing I am missing is this one badge. Why? because I did not know this badge was even going to exist when I was in the tutorial. When badges were implemented, no dev or red name ever made a post saying that this one badge in all of CoH gaming history would only be given in the tutorial, and never in the actual game itself other then Outbreak.

If this would have been mentioned I would be right there saying no leave the badge where it is, but it wasn't and many heroes have done the exact same thing as I have. When the badges were introduced we were excited and kept collecting badges, completing badges..ect..ect..

Anyway, it would be nice to get this badge to complete my hero. If not then thats something myself and many other badge collectors will have to deal with. But I see no harm in bringing this badge to the many who missed it.

[ QUOTE ]
Should your previous heroes be allowed a chance to get the badge? Well look at it this way: I play a male hero during the Valentine's event and get the Handsome badge. A female companion gets the Beautiful badge. Does that mean we should get the chance to get each other's badges too? Hardly... and the same logic applies here, whether you believe that or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

See this makes no sense to me, because the Handsome and Beautiful badge if one in the same badge with a different title to the badge reflecting the gender of the Hero.

There is no isolator equivalent, so there is no comparison as to what you just tried to explain.