Arcanaville

Arcanaville
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  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flux_Vector View Post
    You don't have to have been around long or been a highly active forum poster to make a good point.

    The point that Arcanaville, despite her intelligence, competence, and past record, should either be hired-slash-headhunted by the dev team, perhaps as a consultant, or else treated with no more seriousness than any other player, isn't a bad one. Not because of anything negative about Arcanaville, but because it's bad public relations on the part of NCSoft/Paragon Studios. It's not an attack on her, her credibility, or her contributions.

    It's pointing out an elephant in the forums' room: the fact that Arcanaville is given a higher degree of consideration by the devs is fairly clear, but how much of a higher degree, and when, isn't. That's sort of the worst possible situation, too, because if it were entirely secret nobody would know; if it were entirely transparent everyone could appreciate being levelled with honestly. With its being an "open secret," people who fall into the category of "not being Arcanaville" are entirely reasonably in feeling slighted by the devs - not only is someone else clearly being given more weight than they are, but nobody's even telling them how much more and on what issues.

    And that's not really fair to Arcanaville either, since it can tend to attract negative attention and argumentation to her posts.

    I do understand that NCSoft/Paragon Studios probably can't afford to match Arcanaville's current salary. It's clear she's very well-educated and skilled, and from what I understand of the gaming industry, most people working in it are doing it out of a passion for gaming and/or because of their creative sparks, not for the big bucks. But really, anyone regardless of competence or lack thereof, whose ideas or outright work was being used this extensively by a development team, should be credited officially at the minimum, and probably paid, too. And if it's not being used as extensively as it appears, that should be clarified, instead.
    Well, I can tell you this. The devs do not value my subjective opinion any higher than any other player, and even if they did, I don't express it without massive disclaimers. They don't do anything just because Arcanaville wants them to. I wanted them to look at MA for five years. QED.

    What I *do* have is the credibility to get them to *look* at something if I feel its important to look at, because I'm a) very consistent, and usually correct, and b) I don't nag them about it once I've alerted them to it.

    However, once they look at it, what happens next is 1 part Arcana, 999 parts Paragon Studios. You have to remember that MMO development is a collaboration. Its not Arcana talking to Paragon Studios. Its, say, Arcana talking to Castle, and Castle talking to the three people on his powers team, and the Castle talking to Positron and War Witch, and talking to the QA team, and talking to lots of other developers. Sure, Castle might value my opinion to a point, but I'm not one voice out of two, I'm one voice out of twenty, or fifty, and an outsider voice at that. *And* then they also consider the opinions of the rest of the playerbase and what they will think, which means I become one voice out of thousands of outsiders and then dozens of insiders, none of which I outrank.

    I shoot things off to the devs, but my credibility extends to being listened to as someone who tends not to steer the devs into wild goose chases. If they wanted me to actually work on the game as an insider, they would hire me to do so and credit me accordingly, as they would anyone else working for them. I don't dictate anything to the devs, and they do not cater to my preferences.


    And for the record, I have been given no specific information about the participation algorithm, so I know very little about its specifics, beyond what I've divined on my own. And in this specific case, me being me is specifically why I'm currently not asking, and why they are currently not telling. If they told me its details, I would be unable to discuss them, and also severely limited in the testing data I could share. So long as I don't know, I can comment on whether or not my testing observations match what the devs say about the system, or are going to say. Not many people are doing direct statistical analysis of the system and telling people about it, and telling me anything would essentially eliminate one of them from the forums.
  2. Quote:
    Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post
    Sorry but that stance is more absurd. She is human and can make mistakes (see her commentary on pvp numbers). At times she doesn't take into effect the human element, which is fine as a lot of numbers people don't.
    I'm accused of it all the time. Its essentially never actually true. I'm fallible, and I don't always see the human element in the same way everyone else wants me to, but I actually consider being accused of being a purely numbers person to be an insult, as there's no actual evidence of that unless you believe being able to *do* math is automatically exclusive of other skills. Most of my board postings regarding the game itself are not numbers posts. They are just the ones most uniquely identified with me. Most of my posts are related to the interplay between the players and the designed gameplay.

    It would probably surprise most people to know that while I do send bug reports and suggestions to the devs all the time that have numbers in them, *most* of my conversation with the devs involves how players will perceive a particular change, or how to craft a change so its perceived in the best possible light. My discussions with Castle regarding MA, for example, discussed what the numbers should be from a balance perspective, but most of my interesting discussion with him was what changes would have the greatest perceived impact. And at the moment, I haven't discussed *any* of the technical details of the participation system with the devs, except my own observations about it. Virtually all of my commentary to them involves how its being perceived by the players, and what I believe they need to do to respond to that perception.

    Fundamentally, I'm a student of game design, and fundamentally speaking, gameplay is the human interface to the game mechanics. Game design is a human interface problem, not a numerical problem. However, mathematics is the language of game design, a least its mechanical components. Not every instance of *using* numbers is talking *about* numbers. I don't think most people fully appreciate the distinction.


    Also, just because you disagree with my opinion on PvP numbers, doesn't mean the mistake is necessarily mine.
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
    I like when people tell me what I experience.

    We ignore the adds. They pulled both AVs to the courts, the adds followed and are mopped up accordingly. Got it?
    Which is why I specifically said the only way that tactic would work is if you pulled both AVs near or onto the spawn point. But that makes this fight not a typical "tank and spank" in yet another significant way, especially because pulling them forgoes a specific set of rewards. Or if you want to look at it this way, there's a strong pulling penalty.
  4. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Every time I take the time to talk or lead seriously, I drop to a common from uncommon. Sorry, proof enough for me.
    There is zero correlation between when I spend a lot of time talking and what my drops are, and I have numbers. If that's proof enough for you, I guess my logs would be proof enough for you that the game hates you, or likes me, because its only penalizing you.


    Quote:
    The master runs I've been on drop me down to common or uncommon, without fail. Sorry, proof enough for me.
    It must really hate you then, because none of mine drop below rare.


    Quote:
    When several people DC and I all of a sudden get a V. Rare table, or my team clears phase 2 of Lambda faster than the other and I get a V. Rare table makes it appear to be a zero-sum.
    I was on a Lambda where my team cleared the entire room, and then went back and helped clear the other room, and I got uncommon. Just the other day I was on a team that went completely haywire and my team only got to *four* of the crates before the other team entered the room. That one was a rare. The game hates you even more.


    Quote:
    I'm expecting a road map out of this fiasco. I expect a promise to make the game fair, not only from a mechanical perspective, but an observable perspective.

    The game and the players deserve nothing less.
    Well, you have a lot of expectations that don't get met. And given the level of proof that you consider definitive, I think you're going to be disappointed again.


    Also, accurate is nerfed in the trials.
  5. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
    I...uh...well...uh...

    I do believe Arcanaville just made a funny.

    (also, have you ever tried translating transcolaminating orthogonal attribmod execution into German? IT BLOWS THE MIND MAN!)
    Just be thankful I didn't go with plan B, which was a Der Untergang video.


    Instead, I have to amuse myself with:



    Positron adderessing the playerbase on the "technical issues" surrounding his incarnate trial participation algorithm
  6. On a serious note, I'm going to summarize what I've said and what I know about the system, before Baryonyx post, just for the record. This is everything I think I know, and the level of uncertainty.

    I believe the participation algorithm can be manipulated in theory. But I don't think people really are doing so as reliably as they think they are.

    I believe profligate use of AoEs - powers that affect multiple foes - helps. But I'm not sure how. I see no direct correlation between damage dealt and drops. I see no direct correlation between the number of targets I *hit* and drops. But I see a moderate correlation between using them at all, and not using them, separate from those factors. I don't know why.

    I am certain the system has a measuring metric (participation) and a random element. Which means I believe even if people think they can game the system, if they are getting *exactly* the same thing over and over there has to be at least some element of luck to that. Across tens of thousands of players, such random incidents can occur.

    I don't think the system is zero-sum. In the strict technical sense its possible the players are in indirect competition with each other: if one person killed everything and the rest of the league stood around doing nothing, obviously that person would almost certainly have higher participation. So if a player were to do that they could cut other players out of rewards. However, I do not believe the participation bonuses are strong enough to do that under normal playing conditions.

    I don't think taking time to lead or talk seriously hurts your participation.

    I do believe the trials are broken down into phases, and participation is measured in them separately and somehow combined.

    I believe completing objectives in the trials accrues a bonus to all players, or at least all players nominally involved. For example, I believe Master runs will tend to grant everyone statistically higher drops because the player complete more "objectives." But because of the random element, that is not guaranteed, just more likely.

    I believe iXP is calculated separately from the reward drop participation system, and obeys different rules. In particular, I believe iXP is *heavily* ruled by damage output and number of targets affected.


    I will note that collectively, some of the above statements contradict reports that players can *reliably* game the system, that indiscriminant tagging without other factors in play has a dramatic effect on the drop table, that pets are a penalty (they might not help, but they are unlikely to hurt by a statistically significant amount), that buffing other players is a penalty (if it is, its miniscule), and that the rewards are zero-sum: if you get the good one, it means you took it from someone else that won't get it, or alternatively if you have a high participation score it can only mean someone else has a commensurately bad one.

    It may contradict the devs if they believe the system isn't being gamed, or it may contradict the devs if they believe the system is being trivially gamed. We'll know tomorrow. That puts me in the position of saying I don't think I know what it does, but I'm reasonably sure it does not do what forum consensus thinks it does. Which is not unfamiliar territory.

    I would expect that the devs cannot completely rewrite the entire system in one day. So don't expect that miracle. They might have been working on changes since release or even before, and some of those might have been expedited which they may be announcing. Beyond that, I would hope what people are expecting tomorrow is a starting point to discuss the future of the system, not a miracle cure for everything people think is wrong with the system.
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
    No one makes the case that they should be able to complete TFs with all the difficulty settings (players debuffed, foes buffed, no insp, no temp powers, etc...) on UBER!! And yet, they could do that. That's not interpreted as Dev-endorsed content.

    If one of those difficulty settings were "Ignore minimum size", then it really shouldn't be a problem, just as long as there wasn't a badge attached to that setting.
    Because that's setting things subjectively higher. Not harder: higher. Setting the minimum team size downward is setting things lower, towards more accessibility. The whole *reason* for asking for this is to allow for more accessibility. And with that accessibility comes a far higher probability of players interpreting that increase in accessibility as being a specific statement about the amount of accessibility the game is "intended" to have, disclaimers notwithstanding.

    We know that there is a percentage of the players that believes this game's manifest destiny is unlimited accessibility of all features: for soloers, time limited players, anyone. There's no slippery slope that says if something can be done, it should be doable under restrictions. There is one that says if anyone can do it, everyone should be able to. If I can solo a task force, that means its intended to be soloable, and if its intended to be soloable, it should be given difficulty options that make it soloable. After all, all the hard work has already been done by removing the team limit. Now you just have to add these difficulty features, and everyone will be able to solo that task force, which is what this game is supposed to be doing.

    Its not like I'm making up that line of thought. In fact, just replace "task force" with "arch villain" and I'm actually just paraphrasing history.
  8. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vermain View Post
    It's also a terribly flawed assumption
    Yes it is.
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
    I want to point out you are on the internet.

    Sociopathy is the norm.
    I'd have to concede that one.
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Positron View Post
    It's now in the hands of Zwill and the OCR department for translating before we post it
    Zwillinger: "What does 'transcolaminating orthogonal attribmod execution' mean?"

    OCR #1: "I think it means 'hit stuff.'"

    Zwillinger: "Put that down. And someone find out what 'epitomistic' means and what the hell it has to do with fun speed."

    OCR #2: "Are you sure that's an F? I think its an R."

    Positron: "Hey Z, any chance I can get that post up by close of business Today?"

    Zwillinger: "Get the &^*# out of my office, Miller."

    Positron: "So, Thursday morning then?"

    Zwillinger: ...
  11. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Supermax View Post
    Another analogy for you. You have a business that competes directly with another person's business. You steal a client from the other person, therefore making money for yourself while stealing it from your competitor.

    Have you "exploited" your fellow human being in this case? The answer is no. You acted in your own best interests, the same thing your competitor would have done if given the chance. This is normal behavior and the basis for capitalism, not something to criticize.

    The only solution is communism, where everybody gets the same stuff. While that has been proven to not work in real life, it most definitely does work in video games. The ONLY way to keep people from acting like people is to remove their option of doing so.
    The problem is we're all in the same business. Stealing from your co-workers will often get you fired.

    Trying to say that if we don't let players screw other players then the free world collapses is innovative, if ludicrous. Also, I *do* run a business that is in direct competition with other businesses. I don't steal customers. I compete for their business, when the customer declares that they are in competitive play. Otherwise, not really. I guess I run a commune, since that's the only other alternative.


    If Adam Smith is the only thing you understand, then I'll translate for you. The free market principle contains as a necessary assumption everyone having access to the correct and relevant information upon which to make any market decision. Failing to disclose information is contrary to the free flow of information necessary for market participants to make an informed decision. I'm disclosing the fact that I consider everyone who screws their team mates for self gain to be a jerk. This allows players to factor that piece of information into their decision making process, and to decide if that piece of information is relevant to their cost/benefit analysis. This disclosure is necessary to ensure people make informed decisions because to do otherwise would hide a potentially material cost of a decision.
  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
    First of all, I was referring to fully decking out a character with the top tier incarnate powers. Sure, you don't have to do that, just like you don't have to level a toon to 50, but if you're shooting for the top, that's what I was talking about.
    If I focused all 40 runs on a single character, I would have tier 4 powers in every slot with resources to spare. I would rather have three characters with major progress in the system, so that's why I'm spreading out the effort. Three characters with tier 3s is better than one with tier 4s in my opinion, because the power difference between 3 and 4 isn't commensurate with their 3-4 times the cost. Those are for people with lots of time and accumulated runs on their hands. But clearly, if I wanted to do that, I would be there or in striking distance of there in only 40 runs.

    The system is really designed so even casual players can get commons, mere mortals can get uncommons and rares, and people who want to pursue the system to the ends of the earth can get very rares. That's why the costs escalate so high on VR but the power level doesn't. Go for it if you want. If you don't, that's also fine.


    Quote:
    I just did a successful lambda, and I got 3 astral merits, which converts to 12 threads, and five threads. Almost enough to make one common component...
    Suppose you got nothing but uncommon drops consistently, which is what the average player seems to be getting. After four runs you'd have 4 uncommons and 68 threads. Almost enough to craft a rare component. Suppose your luck really sucks and you get 50% commons and 50% uncommons. After eight runs you'd have four uncommons, four commons, and 136 threads. If you did one each per day that's also 8 empyreans. That's enough to craft two rare components with resources left over.

    That means while your way of looking at that Lambda is that its not even enough resources to craft a common, my way sees each run as being 25% of a rare component. Quite a disparity. The question is: which one is more accurate?

    Since a very rare component takes four rares, it takes basically six rares to make a very rare incarnate power. At 2 per eight runs, that's no more than 24 runs. Within about 25 runs you would have everything you need to craft the Very Rare power for one Incarnate slot. That means given these very low drop table proportions, you can do it in 100 runs. If you get even 1 rare or very rare drop, the number of runs drops commensurately. As a practical matter, the average amount of time will likely be half that, perhaps 50 runs. So even 100 runs is a very high estimate, because it requires *never* getting a drop above uncommon, in a hundred runs. That's unlikely.

    And that's to max out to tier 4, which is something no one should assume won't take far above average levels of effort to acquire.
  13. Quote:
    Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
    Bull. I'm not screwing someone over when I capture their queen in chess. That's part of the competitive nature of the game. I am not being a dick if I select the job you were going to pick in Puerto Rico and cost you a dozen points as we race for the bigger total at the end.

    The devs are the ones who decided a competitive model was better for the game than a cooperative one. It's a stupid decision, but it's the one they made.

    Maybe I can't bring myself to just randomly tag things without killing them, but I'll be damned if I sit here and let you lay this shitstorm entirely at the feet of the players when they are simply playing the game the developers clearly wanted or at least should have been able to predict.
    I blame the devs for making an exploitable system. I blame the players for exploiting their fellow players. I blame each for the conduct under their control.
  14. Quote:
    Originally Posted by atomicdeath View Post
    Played last night as bots/ff.

    I decided to try instead of buffing the whole league with double bubble like i usually do, to not buff anyone at all. Didnt use any powers at all from /ff except the 2 big bubbles.

    I usually get 80%common, 20% uncommon on good days.

    I ran it 3 times like that. Got one uncommon, and 2 commons.

    So from my experience bubbling the entire league makes no difference. Henceforth i will only bubble my own team from now on.
    The devs may have made a participation system that sometimes rewards being a dick, but only we can choose to be one. If the devs can lead us to screw real people with pretend gear, that's less a reflection on their stupidity and more on our sociopathy.

    No reward in this game is worth enough for me to screw my team/league mates, so under no circumstances will I choose to help or not help my team/league mates based on what a participation algorithm says. Anyone who says they are being forced to abandon their league members is making excuses for their purely voluntary crappy behavior, an excuse I do not accept.
  15. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
    Yeah, I personally think that tying incarnate advancement almost solely to the 2 new trials was a horrible idea. I think the two new trials are good, but having to do them 100's of times for any character you want to advance in the new incarnate powers, is going to wear people out fast.
    Fortunately, no one needs to do them hundreds of times, except maybe the most unlucky person on earth. I've done about 22 Lambdas and 18 BAFs across three characters so far. One has tier 3s in all four slots and still lots of threads, merits, and components left over. One has 1 uncommon and 1 rare slotted, and is 93% done with Destiny and 10% into Lore - with more than enough threads and astrals to unlock both if I wanted to. The other is a bit of a slow poke: I'm still deciding what to do so I have nothing slotted, but Judgment is at 81% and Destiny is at 85%, Interface is currently empty. However, its not that I lack the ability to slot Interface: that character currently has 64 threads, 46 astrals, 6 empyreans, 2 common, 11 uncommon, 3 rare, and 1 VR component. I've also been specifically experimenting with ways to manipulate that character's earnings *downward* (because I think it would be unethical to experiment with pushing my rewards upward if there is a component to that experiment which drives everyone else's rewards downward) so she's actually earning rewards *slower* than everything else I play, the VR lucky drop notwithstanding.

    That's 40 runs across three characters, all of which are making serious progress on the system. I'll almost certainly be completely rare slotted before I get anywhere near a hundred runs. I'm actually considering starting a fourth once the second unlocks Destiny (I'm inclined to unlock Lore with iXP conversions).

    I doubt I'm significantly far from average when it comes to drops. If anything, the average player is likely progressing faster.

    I don't know where this "hundreds" notion keeps coming from, but neither actual calculations nor actual experience comes anywhere near that value. I have to believe that at least part of the problem with some estimates is that not everyone knows Empyrean merits can be converted into rare and very rare drops even in the worst case scenario that a player never gets either, ever, which itself is unlikely over the long haul of doing on the order of a hundred runs.
  16. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quatermain View Post
    The only reason I want more trials is because the five characters I choose to focus on for incarnate content due to time constraints, will have to do BAF between 80 and 100 times for judgement, and another 160-200 times for lore. I realize this is supposed to be our long term-end game, but with one mission capable of giving XP for it, that is going to get real grindy, real fast.
    Um, why?
  17. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
    i agree completely, but i think if a warning is given that this is a task force meant to be for X number of poeple, and if you run with less than that and cannot finish, thats not the devs or the tfs problem. it would be like a disclaimer/liability waiver, they could get a popup warning saying they are attempting to run with under the minimum requirement for team size and if they fail, its not the fault of the system since they are choosing to partake in the challenge

    it would be similar to the ouro mini tfs, but it would follow the standard rules for task forces in that AVs wont downgrade to EBs and cant go below -1 difficulty
    Nobody cares what the game says or what the devs think when it comes to what they believe is "reasonable." The sad truth is that it is generally easier to avoid debatable situations rather than deal with the amount of debate those debatable situations will generate.
  18. In principle, I'm all for eliminating minimum team sizes on task forces so long as there is fair warning and an enforcement of literal minimums (if there's a mission with four simultaneous blinkies, the minimum has to be four).

    However, as a practical matter there are a lot of players who believe that if the devs allow it they condone it, and if they condone it they should make it accessible. Meaning: if you allow two people to start Numina, people will complain two people can't finish it successfully. They'll say there should be a switch to downscale everything including the AVs to just the right level of difficulty to make their duo able to finish it: that it should be tuned for them, because they represent the "normal" players and not the "power gamers."

    I like challenges. I would attempt to solo every task force that was logistically soloable if I could. This is a feature I would make a lot of use of: its been a long time since I've soloed a task force. But not at the expense of having to listen to people complain about the slippery slope surrounding task force difficulty or unlimited content accessibility.
  19. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
    I disagree. Trials still attempt to beat them as quickly as possible but with one catch, kill them within 10s of each other. The speed is still there for sure.
    If I attempted to defeat the AV I was shooting at as fast as possible in almost every BAF I was on that would cause a respawn. Of course the entire league attempts to finish the trial as quickly as possible, but that's not the same thing as saying that everyone attempts to defeat each AV as quickly as possible. Or rather, if this was just a tank and spank, the objective would be to dump as much damage on your target as possible to defeat it as quickly as possible. That doesn't work in the final stage of BAF.


    Quote:
    Going to have to disagree here as well. I've been on numerous BAFs where we only focus on the AVs and the ambushes are ignored, only to be fodder for the AoEs. I will admit that all but 2 of these BAF examples have come in the past few days. I assume this is due to more players earning their level shifts, judgment and lore abilities.
    There has to be more going on than that on your BAFs, because 9CUs are programmed to fire from range: they are not melee-preferred. You have to pull the AVs onto the spawn point for random AoEs to take them out without specific targeting.

    I don't think its a coincidence which AV gets which reinforcements.


    Quote:
    I agree with the underlying principal about innovation, and, to be honest, I had forgotten about the sequestration mechanic. So, you are right in that this trial, BAF, offers more than the traditional Tank and Spank.
    Lambda has acids and pacification grenades, in the Marauder fight, but more importantly has the actual collection phase where the league has to split up and is rewarded if both teams stay at least roughly at the same pace (with extra minutes of time).

    Marauder's leaping also has a tactical manipulative element. If you can deal enough damage to him fast enough so he keeps leaping around, he will actually keep running away from his own reinforcements. On the other hand if you deal damage to him very slowly, even if you have plenty of time and grenades you will find yourself having to deal with more of his reinforcements as they arrive. That's a little different than your typical AV fight.
  20. Quote:
    Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
    I took Void as well for concept reasons. He's a Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper, it's the only Judgement that made any sense at all for him. It's actually kinda cool looking for him, looks like his Death Shroud just exploded.

    It doesn't do overwhelming damage at tier 2, but it does enough to make me smile when I use it.

    I took Ion with my main, who is a Claws/Regen scrapper. It was the closest to a concept fitting power that was available. Of course, my main is a cyborg too, so I can explain damn near anything as simply being an upgrade to his systems. That one feels a little broken, and way more powerful than it should be.
    All the Judgments do the same amount of base damage. Ion can hit more targets, but it is the only one that has a potential stacking problem in teams (and outside of teams the target caps for all the Judgment attacks is plenty big).
  21. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ammon View Post
    The level and extent of analysis given through this thread is far beyond 'commendable', and firmly into the 'astounding' levels. Thank you for it.

    I do have one question though that I didn't see addressed and wondered as to your thoughts about:

    How do you feel about 'late bloom' powersets, and do you believe there is a place for certain powersets that are weaker, trickier or otherwise less than steallar performers at lower-levels, to become more powerful than 'easier' option sets without this being detrimental to game balance?

    In other words, would it not be an acceptable imbalance and overal 'a good thing' (TM) for a powerset to be the most powerful at 50 because it was one that required somewhat more thought and determination to get there? (The controller effect?)

    In particular, I think that some of the powers of Dark Armour come quite late, and the need to gain Knockback protection from another power or from IOs and bonuses may justify it being more rewarding at the top end.

    It might be quite fascinating to look at how the various armours work with only the powers available at level 20, and with only DO level enhances. I think here we'd see SR be far more comparable and perhaps ahead of other sets, while seeing DA a fair bit behind the curve when a large part of its mitigation (a heal that must hit accurately) is both weaker and less accurate. Of course, I think this would only serve again to emphasize much of the superiority of Regeneration in general use.
    To a degree yes, but only to a degree. I'm more inclined to say that its ok if powerset A outperforms powerset B from 10-20 by a small amount if powerset B overtakes powerset A between 20-30 by a small amount, and then eventually reach similar performance levels by level 45.

    I'm also more inclined to allow imbalances at qualitative levels that are debatable, so long as they are reasonably debatable. For example, Regen and Willpower get quick recovery. They therefore get much more endurance than the other sets, even with inherent fitness. That translates to more build options, easier leveling, and more flexible offense. Its *debatable* if its worth having more endurance, if it meant, say, having less alpha strike absorption ability. But that's fine: the people who would rather have better Alpha take Invuln, the people that want unlimited endurance take Regen or Willpower. That gets into the subject of the kinds of choices I believe an MMO should strive to present, which is a different topic altogether.

    But in general, I think its not a good idea for comparable powersets to be too unbalanced at level 50, because even before the incarnate system that was the pinnacle of character development, and now with the incarnate system its the baseline for Incarnate progress. So the level 50 standard slotting balance point is still, I think, a significant one. Powersets can jockey for position on the way up, but by the home stretch from about 45 to 50 they should be roughly even.
  22. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
    Right, it's Tank and Spank 2.0.
    All defeat objectives can be characterized that way: take their damage and deal damage to kill them.

    Except in this case, the objective is not to defeat them as quickly as possible but to synchronize your efforts with another team.

    Also, the term "tank and spank" has connotations, particularly that both tasks are trivial and achievable through brute force. If you attempt to blindly tank Siege while 9CUs keep coming inbound, hoping random AoE damage will just vaporize them automatically, you'll discover its impossible to tank that encounter in that fashion. Siege will get you, or the 9CUs will get you, no matter how strong you are, if you let them have a free shot at you. In the standard content, people generally focus on the AV knowing they can bring it down fast and knowing any reinforcements the AV calls will pale in comparison and be no threat: if you can tank the AV, its minions are usually not significant. Not in BAF.

    Also: sequestration.

    Combat is combat: kill them before they kill you. But if you reduce all of combat to those terms and claim its all the same, you've eliminated the possibility for discussing MMOs in an interesting fashion, or at least all combat in MMOs.

    The question is the intended level of innovation. An innovative sauce on a steak is still a steak dinner. But that might have been the intent. A steak salad is a different kind of innovative way to serve a steak, and its definitely no longer the normal steak dinner. But its still recognizable steak. Turning it into a granulated powder and mixed into ice cream is a radical innovation in steak dining, in that there's no obvious recognizable steak anymore. But its still just meat on a plate.

    So when you say "I wouldn't wave this sort of thing around as evidence of some new or innovative mechanic" I would. For this game these encounters are new and innovative game play mechanics. Sure, they aren't innovative in the sense that the combat is no longer even recognizable as MMO combat any more, but neither the devs nor I think most of the players wanted an unrecognizable encounter. They wanted innovation within the framework of the recognizable game and within that framework we can judge whether something is new and innovative or reused, and to what degree - because innovation is usually a matter of degrees, not absolutes.
  23. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold View Post
    Just an update on the blaster I was talking about above.

    I've gotten every slot to tier 3 except for judgment. Yesterday I ran into a problem. My best guess is that I do too much damage. I ran several BAF tirals yesterday. The ones I ran in the morning I was taking care of the ambushes during a few master run attempts(damn lag during the prisoner phase). In the afternoon during about 4 different master run attempts I was placed on one of the AVs during the final phase. Whichever AV I was placed on would get seriously out of balance, 15-25% less than the other, with the others health in about 20-40 seconds. Normally I would say that the whole team I was on was just awesome and the team on the other AV just needed improvement. However, the last run I did the leader asked me to switch AVs in an attempt to balance the damage being done to the AVs. As soon as I switched over to the other AV the same thing happenned again. It took about 30 seconds but the other AV caught up with and then got seriously out of balance very quickly. The other progressed at an average rate, about the same speed the other team was going when I wasn't over there. The AVs ended up repowering and we tried it again. Once again whichever AV I was on would have its health drop far faster than the other. The league leader caught on and sent me over to the ambush team. From there they had no problem balancing the AV's health and finishing the trial.

    Anyways after the trial we were sitting around in Pocket D and some of the other players asked what the hell was happenning with AVs. The league leader explained that I did to much damage and that when I was moved over to the ambush team the balance problems disappeared. Most of the players were poking a little fun at me or congratulating me on for building such a damaging character. Two players exploded though. I don't keep chat logs so to summarize the paragraph they wrote in their outrage they asked why in the hell I couldnt see that the AV health was getting to low and slow up my attacking. Apparently I cause them to lose some very valuable minutes of their lives and they think I should lrn2play.

    So am I a bad player because my blaster does too much damage and I didn't notice that fact until it was pointed out to me. That and as a Blaster shouldn't I be shaking my head disapprovingly at the concept of too much damage.
    One blaster triple shifted and with all five incarnate powers can be dealing a lot of damage. And you don't necessarily have to be dealing the best damage on the planet to make a huge difference when its two eight player teams trying to balance out damage on two AVs. I was on a BAF attempt going for Separated and I was on the Nightstar team. We ended getting away ahead of Siege and the Siege team asked for assistance. I shifted my blaster from that team to the Siege team at the point where Siege was in the 60s and Nightstar was in the 40s. By the time Siege was down to the 20s Siege has actually overtaken Nightstar and a smart player seeing this teleported me back to Nightstar. At that point we began to overtake Siege again and I just slowed down slightly to keep it even.

    I've switched many times when my target was getting ahead, only to have that target then pull ahead and I have to switch back. But I don't know how many other people are thinking the same thing I am. However, on that Separated run there's no question I was the swing damage. I suspect, though, that any well-slotted Blaster would have been equally significant in that situation. Its just a question of how the teams' damage happens to balance out on that run.
  24. Arcanaville

    Astral Merits.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Breog View Post
    But in seriousness... Commons I have not gotten a single one. So Im left constantly having to convert into commons, even burning Very Rares and Eypheral merits that I have no need for /cry
  25. Arcanaville

    Astral Merits.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Some of us aren't as "lucky". I've seen exactly 1 very rare table both in and out of beta over 100+ trials.
    You're just saying that because every time you do, blam, that's when the reward fairy shows up and starts stuffing your pockets.