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I've recently been noticing some players with special benefits due to sgs. I even joined one recently with a damage boost. That's a big benefit. However, it seems that's a minority of sgs and most do not have any of these group benefits. I think it would be nice if more, different and lower level easy to get group benifits were available. Even if these benefits were pretty minimal. I now find myself wanting more than just good teleporters in a base.
I also wish there were more/easier temp powers available to make from salvage. Most of my characters can only make one or two at most and the type is minimal like temp knockback resistance.
Last but not least in these post-I5/ED days, it's long overdue for us to get these "balancing" benefits.

Let me make sure I understand what this potentially means for me. I dont care about bling, just things that really affect me in game. Looks like that is only the jetpack, and the jetpack will boost any travel power?
I really doubt I'll pay even $10 just to have a small boost to my travel powers.

I do agree with the guy complaining about the concept breaking aspect of this. It would be nice if you automatically got a visual that matched your origin. For example if you are magic origin and get the "jetpack" power then you get wings that show when it's active instead of the jetpack visual.
But there are many examples of this and it would take a lot more work. Maybe CoX2? BTW, what new game is Cryptic working on and when is it going to be released?

I also agree with the guy who noted how part of the fanbase will cheer whatever the devs propose/do no matter what.

You're usually better than simple insults.

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So you don't want to learn?

[/ QUOTE ] Why are you so unwilling to accept that these powers are broken for many people. One more time, there is no tactic that would make DS acceptable to my team mates except in the most extreme situations. I dont want a power that is either going to upset my team or be extremely situational. The only learning that needs to be done is that you need to learn that some people will never like DS in it's current form. That doesn't make them bad people or dumb people or any other insult you have in mind. It doesn't mean they need to benifit from your great wisdom in all matters dom. It means the power is too situational and/or pisses off my brute friends.

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... there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates ....

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Not only do Dimension Shift tactics exist; we actually discussed them recently.

[/ QUOTE ] Brawl tactics exist too. Sorry, I meant viable useful tactics.
Actually I didn't say DS tactics dont exist, I said there is no way to make my team like DS.

I've tried it in the most appropiate of situations and it simply does't work for them. I should admit I did see DS appreciated once, but that doesn't make up for all the times that it's disliked if not despised. DS isn't really unusable, it's just horrendously situational and it needs to be changed.

Explain to me how making it capable of being turned off would hurt you so bad. It would make the power less situational for me, I might even take it then. How would that power being a toggle hurt you?

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crusades

[/ QUOTE ] . We're talking about adjusting a powerset to be better for the majority even if it inconveniences a few hard core gamers. Not quite the same as the crusades.

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nope, it isnt, nor is it seatbelts but i was responding to analogy, you know 'things done to us for our own good'.

oh, wait. you just wanted something to take out of context to ridicule my and invalidate my message.

my bad.

[/ QUOTE ] No I'm really not dismissing your responses... except when the analogy is that overblown. Sorry but I dont agree with use of any sort of analogy that goes to a far extreme of any version of mass death, politics or religion. Agreeing or disagreeing with me, I think it's best not to bring up that kind of subject here.
So lets move on past that.

Your point is that it's generally best to not force people to do things they dont want to do. I can accept and agree with that, I certainly didn't want ED forced on me. The reason I see a change to grav dom's broken powers or a small boost to doms in general as a good change is that I honestly believe that more people would benefit from it than would be hurt from it. Let's say they boost your damage 15% and you end up killing mobs so fast that you find the character boring and for some reason you dont simply fight mobs a lvl higher than before. Granted your game has been hurt. But if a large majority of people now find that doms have gone from perceived as underpowered to now being perceived as just right (both from players and team mates), then it was a worthwhile sacrifice IMHO.
Same thing can be said for any specific grav power changes like for example reducing propel activation from 4 seconds down to 2 seconds. I have no doubt some people will say OMG I'm killing stuff to fast now!!! But most people are going to say OMG propel is a viable power again.
I think it's even quite possible that changes could be made to satisfy everyone who finds doms currently underpowered while not upsetting most of the people who find doms fine the way they are now. No body here is asking for to be uber.

No doubt it's time for someone to bring up the fact that I have no proof that a majority of people who try grav doms would greatly benifit from an improvment in grav dom's broken powers. True enough, but that is my opinion based on experience, forum posts, guides (see below) and people I've talked to.

I'm not unhappy with the rate at which my grav dom leveled. I am umhappy that I didn't contribute as much to the teams that got me that XP as I could have with any other powerset.

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The saddest thing about this post and the dozens of others just like it over the last several months is that the hours of time spent reading and posting about how your dominator is weak could be spent playing new builds or improving old tactics.

I feel sorry for you.

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I spend plenty of time playing thank you very much.
What I feel sorry for is someone who cant accept that other people have valid opinions that are diffrent from thier own, that is what is really sad.

As for tactics, there is no tactic that will stop propel from locking you down for 4 seconds, there is no tactic that will stop wormhole from scattering your mobs, there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates. Bottom line is there is no tactic that will make this poor powerset into what it should be.

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Gravity: Late blooming but sing and wormhole are as good as it gets. Sing really makes up for the lack of control and lets you focus on damage.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes Gravity is a late bloomer, like lvl 37. Seriously my grav dom is lvl 37 and I am just recently feeling that she is starting to live up to my reasonable expectation. Maybe Ice, Fire, Plant, etc dont have any real issue, but from my personal experience I can agree with all those that point out the flaws in gravity. And that has been done since very early on i.e. the guide mentioned below.

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crusades

[/ QUOTE ] . We're talking about adjusting a powerset to be better for the majority even if it inconveniences a few hard core gamers. Not quite the same as the crusades.

If it were to turn out that most people prefer doms to remain unchanged, I'd accept it. But I honestly believe that most people find them, or at least grav, underpowered, ineffective and full of faulty powers.
Even if I didn't have my own experience to go on, just based on what others have written and what other players have told me I can tell that doms and especially grav are not balanced with the other ATs.

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I rolled a grav/psi simply because it seemed to be a solid choice if I ever got into baseraiding (i still think it is) - and decided i'd level it up to 40 before i passed any more judgement. I found I actually liked playing it a lot, but it played more like a concept build than an effective toon.

[/ QUOTE ]QFT

This week I met a person intent on leveling to 50 without a travel power. He fully realizes that when he is teaming and there isn't someone to tp him, that he will be causing his team to wait or to fight without him.
Personally I think that's a bit crazy but if that's what he wants to do and he accepts the consequences then great. He not only accepts being gimped but prefers it.
That's fine for a personal choice in play-style, but it's not fine for an AT or powerset. You may enjoy playing a powerset that is gimped, you may even convince yourself that it isn't gimped. But when there are a large number of people who say it's weak then in spite of your statements otherwise, something is wrong with the powerset.

It's like a restaurant where 20% of the people say it's the best food in town and they have never been served a bad meal. And there is another 20% that say they get sick when they eat the food from that restaurant. In that situation the thing to do is shut the restaurant down until you can figure out what is wrong. It really doesn't matter that a few people dont have a problem with it. Nor does it make sense for those people that like the restaurant to say "too bad, you just dont have a strong enough stomach" or you just dont understand the food. Bottom line is even with just 20% of the people getting sick... there's something wrong with the food.

Last week someone said Gravity is great because they can go spam Dimension Shift on -10 minions to build up domination and then jump into the pvp zone. Again, personally I think that's crazy. But if that's what he wants to do I have no problem at all with him doing it. What I do have a problem with is my team members being upset with me because they have to stand around while a dozen mobs are untouchable; or I only use DS as an extreme emergency button which makes it extremely situational (and it doesn't even work well in those situations). Bottom line is even though one person has found a personal use for the power, for so many people its unusable. For a powerset to have one power that is so flawed for most people is a bad thing. Gravity has many flawed powers and of course this is all on top of Doms in general being so weak outside of the situational Domination.

No it's simply not good enough to cater to the few people that like the powerset when so many others dont. Especially when most of the fixes that have been suggested will improve the powerset for those that dont like it without hurting it for those that do.

Another analogy, it's like forcing car manufacturers to put seat belts in. You may hate seat belts and prefer cars to not have them. But for the good of the public, car manufactures should be forced to put seat belts in. Likewise, for the good of the dom playing public, the devs should be forced to balance doms up to being as good as other ATs even if there are a few people that dont want it. All the more so since all the suggestions to improve doms wont hurt virtually anyone from enjoying them including those that dont want the change i.e. being forced to wear a seat belt wont hurt you but it will help many others; being forced to have a slightly stronger dom wont kill you.

Anyone who says doms wouldn't benefit from a few more hit points or a little more control or damage, or for gravity that reducing activation time for propel or making DS a toggle so you have the option to turn if off... if you cant agree to a few changes that would help the virtually all players; then we'll just have to disagree and I believe the person who suggested that you just like to argue for the sake of argument.

Very smart point there. Maybe the devs, while plugging numbers into their spreadsheet, considered Control at the same value as Support. In any case, IMHO the devs screwed up with Dominators and most especially with Gravity.

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The problems that doms have with large teams are not anything that can be cured by build advice, however.

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Which is why I recommended asking for advice on build and tactics. Your large-team problems are not universal. Instead of continuing to argue fruitlessly otherwise, get help.

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If I were the only person who felt that doms don't contribute as much as other Ats to large teams, then you would have a point.

With all the dozens of threads and hundreds of comments on this very issue on this forum, however, I think that it is pretty obvious that this is an AT problem. you are free to argue that it is not a problem, but to pretend that no one else sees it as a problem is simply disingenuous, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]QFT

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I just wish I could team with them without feeling like the weakest link.

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Then post your build & tactics and ask for help. Given your extreme comments about controls and relative performance, it seems that you're having a harder time than most dominators. This suggests to me that either you're not playing effectively or you have unrealistic expectations. By asking for advice, rather than complaining about problems, you might actually be able to succeed at your stated goal. Even better, if it works, the turnaround will be much faster than waiting for the devs to change the game.

By the way, the same goes for everyone else who complains endlessly about dominators without asking for advice.

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Maybe with perfectly optimized slotting, rigorously analyzed tactics and enough effort the grav dom might be as good as the average other AT, but that defines the problem rather than indicate that there isn't a problem. On any team of similarly skilled players, a grav dom will always be the weakest link.

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If you try to discuss the subject reasonably people take it as either a personal attack or an opportunity to proclaim how great they are because they can solo some arbitrary obscure situation that occurs at most in .01% of typical gameplay.

As someone who enjoys playing a dominator very much but has trouble dealing with the fact that it is just simply not very good, I'm tired of reading post after post from people who refuse to admit something is wrong with this AT when you put it on a team.

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I agree with you completely. The forum is much, much better than it was a few months ago, though, so there is some hope in that regard. Whether there is hope for doms will be up to the devs. And I say that as someone who loves my doms -- I just wish I could team with them without feeling like the weakest link.

[/ QUOTE ]QFT

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Ack, someone killed me in SC while I was afk at the base typing up that last post. I see your plan.......

[/ QUOTE ] Ah hah, the conspiracy worked!

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Oh and those who think they are useless against AV's when their triangles are up? Our secondaries are there for a reason you know - and they don't do such abysmal damage that it isn't worth hurling everything you've got at them. So what if the base modifier is slightly lower than other members of the team - with a nicely mixed team you should be doing very high damage anyway between all the buffs/debuffs that may well be flying around. Plus your pet(s) (if you have one) will happily pummel away at AV's too of course, adding significant damage to the team.

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OMG I hate this argument, whenever it comes up, so much I could spit...just did so I feel better.

I don't understand this mindset...THE GAME MECHANICS THAT NUKE CONTROL ARE STUPID! YOU SHOULDN'T JUST ACCEPT IT UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO JUST QUIT THE GAME AL TOGETHER.

No way we should just be happy to sit back and plink at the AV/Hero...no way. Not when every other AT gets to use their entire AT's abilites. No way.

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Ok enough beating around the bush, how do you really feel about it?

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adding significant damage to the team.

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Well that's the problem! You've got to stop damaging your team!!!!

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In reality, the controller damage is icing on the cake, the buff/debuff from their secondary is why they are never a bad choice for a team mate.

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Controler controls are quite valuable, more so than doms. But this leads back to Doms (at least grav) having excessivly low combination of damage and control. In spite of that for me, the need to fix the broken powers in grav is formost. But still an increase in either damage or control would greatly help.

Doms in general dont need much to raise them up to the level of other ATs. And Grav doms only need a few faulty powers fixed in addition to that.

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EDIT: just to add, yeah, i got hatemail in my inbox. blew my mind. I'm generally to the point but I don't try to troll. Suprised the hell out of me.

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Well, as someone often accused as a "prodomite", I have never PM'd anyone about a post. If I disagree I post why, but thats really as much so everyone seeing it can get the dissenting opinion, rather then for the sake of arguing.

I have gotten PMs from people who strongly disagreed with me, but even then, it was still trying to convince me of something, wasnt hate mail.

Sheesh. Sorry to hear that.

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I turned off my mail a long time ago. There are many people in the forums that forget this is just a game and people have a right to express opinions that may different from their own. I've seen some people equate an attempt to improve a few game powers with promoting slavery and terrorism. Get a grip people.

I believe that it's not just a matter of Doms loosing a popularity contest. I believe that the grav powerset has several flawed powers that make that set undesirable for most players and most groups.
So yes, I come here and add comments to topics about dom powers. If you want to call that DOOOOOM that's up to you. But I regularly point out, and discuss, the specific flaws with grav. I believe that is what a forum is for. And yes exaggerations like you saying that I'm crying DOOOOM is also part of the forum, but not a useful part. If you want to, instead of yelling "he's yelling doooooooom!", discuss any of the issues feel free. I may sometimes post "unproductively negative", but maybe you should take a look at your own posts. They seem pretty unproductively negative to me.

Your computer analogy is flawed. Doms, especially grav, being unpopular is because they are flawed not in spite of it. Low popularity is just a symptom of the problems. Grav doms compared to other ATs is more like comparing PC/IBM clones and an abacus. Some people may prefer an abacus. But given choices that are supposed to be "balanced" the 'player base' deserves something better - even if that means a few people lose some of their pet tactics.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time the game was changed for the sake of balance. Maybe this time the change can be a positive one for most players.

To review a few of the major points that I've brought up:
<ul type="square">[*]Propel needs quicker activation.[*]DS needs to be less situational.[*]Wormhole should group mobs rather than scatter them.[*]Control or Damage should to be improved slightly.[/list]If that doesn't give you enough "productive" ideas to discuss then read the dom guild that's been in my signature for several weeks.

Funny you can say all that when I'm agreeing with a previous post someone made. As for suggesting things, I've done that numerous times. As for your exaggerated dooom, I've never said that doms or even grav is unplayable. But many people have said that they are less useful, more situational and do less damage than other ATs. If doms have only 6% of players and grav is the most situational and underpowered of all doms, I think that discussing grav flaws, in spite of a few people that like it the way it is, is appropriate. You can call that DOOOOOOM if you like but IMHO the points made about grav are actually quite valid.

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My fire/energy is much more effective than my grav/energy.

[/ QUOTE ] I haven't palyed a fire dom, but I strongly belive that is true.

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But since many people have said that it gets better I will stick with it

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I felt the same way. People kept saying "oh it will get so much better with wormhole" and then "oh it will get so much better with sing". Well IMHO it does get better... around lvl 37.

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Jib, you should of went with Mind/* my friend.

Gravity has Propel, Dimension Field, and 2 immobilizes which are all garbage powers in my personal opinion.

Now with your sentiments towards wormhole...I would almost go with 5, hehe.

so 5/9 of your primary sucks...wow, i would stop playing that powerset completely.

Mind/* has a quicker animating hold and has levitate (same thing as lift, but does MORE damage).

Everything else in Mind/* is a great power. Mass Hypnosis and Telekinesis are considered to be the most situational for PvE...but they are still pretty damn good.

Mind is 9/9 set. I love it.

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I agree. And I still wonder how so many people defend grav so strongly when it so obviously has issues when compared to ... anything else. Just because you can make it work, just because you can solo, just because you held a boss and your team actually appreciated it, just becuase you are happy making the best out of what you've got ... does not mean the powerset is good.