Another_Fan
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
On an MoITF, more people in melee means more people that the healing nictus can make use of and def debuffs on a Scrapper can add up to danger even faster than a Brute or a Tank; LGTF has plenty of instances where melee is less useful (and a potential weakness, like with the 4 Riders that cause fear and -end, making it easier to fail); and Kahn has Reichsman, who does do a good amount of damage up close and has that PITA stun attack that mezzes through mez resistance. Of course tanks have to worry about this as well (*sighs* my Fire/Fire certainly did last night), but it is another reason to limit how many people you have up close to a hard target.
Good Scrapper players can do fine up close on those mobs, but they're also the easiest to get into trouble: especially with the average player, and even on a well-played one. Melee damage gets pity spots if you're really trying to min/max. Heck, everything other than extreme buff/debuff does for min/maxxers... there really are a few sets out there that are nutty for what they can do.
Most people separate the healer from Romulus for that. -
Quote:With Blasters this is especially untrue.Originally Posted by Arbegla
It doesn't matter how you chain the attacks together, as the blaster as more attacks available more often then the scrapper does. Faster recharging attacks do better DPS (and Damage per cycle) then slower recharging attacks. Even if said slower recharging attacks hit much harder (look at inferno's damage per cycle for example, which ironically enough is higher then shield charge)
You want the highest Damage/time attacks to come just after aim and buildup. If your combo doesn't have aim and build up, you want highest damage/time attacks come at peaks in defiance.
The above is only valid if you are optimizing your damage against targets that will either be up long enough to need highest damage over/time for several attack sequences.
I am sorry you have missed what was being shown.Quote:Luckily for the Dev's, there is no such powerset that can cycle 150+ damage attacks in 5 seconds, or less. You bet best is a elec/shield scrapper, and even them, at best case, fully IO'ed have a 30 (not 3-4) second gap on their massive AoE attacks, as the other attacks do much less damage, in a much less area. -
Quote:Da bum pish,Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
On the unintentional humor scale, where a 1 is:
You typed "Your" when you meant "You're"
and a 10 is:
"I'm going to kill two people in cold blood, then spend the rest of my life trying to find the real killers, mostly on the golf course and in Las Vegas"
He ranks 5-ish. Not worth clicking a button, in my opinion.
I am here evenings two shows till thursday gentlepeople, remember to tip Yomo.
Edit: In a WC fields voice, That's at you son not with you -
Get good at judging distance and target something at the back of the mob.
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@Arbegla
When you say cycle time, its not how fast an attack recharges its how often the sequence of attacks repeats.
Second I know this may seem obvious but for AoE damage to be meaningful there has to be more than 1 thing left to hit.
Lets take a look at my simplified example
we have 2 attacks that do 150 and recharge in 5seconds
The base is
Attack 1
1s
Attack 2
2s -300 pts of damage delivered
wait 4 seconds
6s
Attack 1 again
That total does 300 points every 5 seconds or 60dps/target hit. Using even con or better enemies it takes 7 seconds before the first anything is killed.
Now lets look at your fire/fire example ill be rounding up
Fire Ball_ 80
1s
Rain of fire 125 (allowing it does all its damage at once)
3.24 s
Fire Breath 110
6.14 s
At this point unless adding in another attack really ups the damage you are already doing far worse than the hypothetical.
Adding most of the other attacks is actually going to bring down your damage output/unit time.
Now for the second part of the picture
Once you have done 400 and 800 points you hit changeovers because at 400 the minions are dead and 800 the lieutenants are dead.
So when I say you can't compare the AoE output of the elec/shield its because its killed everything small in 3-4 seconds (tiny hyperbole but not far off) then its on to its st attacks for whatever is left.
Edit /fires real gems are hotfeet and blazing aura -
Quote:I'd have to ask Strato Nexus how he used the term, the inclusion of AVs in the same sentence made me think he meant anything up to bosses.Originally Posted by Arbegla
You do realize, 'Regular Game Content' is 0/1 right? Ya know, as thats the balance point. Anything higher then that, is irregular game content, and can't be counted as such?
Edit: The inclusion of Fire/Psi doms in the comparison also would seem to suggest he wasn't talking about /1
And to be clear, I can't think of anything that can't handle 0/1 at a rate that killing things isn't the problem, but travel,zoning, and running the map are. Maybe some sort of emp that didn't take attacks. -
Quote:I am sorry I was trying to let you work this out for yourself.Originally Posted by Arbegla
AR/fire blasters have 11 AoEs, and you can count Full Auto, as it doesn't crash. 2 ranged AoEs (M30 Grenade, Ignite) 2 medium range cones (Buckshot, Flamethrower) 1 long range cone (Full Auto) and 4 PBAoEs (Combustion, Fire Sword Circle, Consume, and Burn), plus 2 damage auras (Blazing Aura, and Hot Feet)
Assuming the damage auras only tick once and they stay in ignite for the full duration, the total possible AoE damage is 1,075.78 damage, which is about 35% higher AoE damage then fire/ but its assuming much more. (ignites fear component pretty much means its never going to go through its full duration)
Fire also gets access to aim, which as previous listed is a 13.75% overall damage increase, AR does not.
Adding up the total damage from all the attacks is not a good way to measure damage output.
Just as an exercise Lets make a new powerset call it damage
If the powerset only has 2 AoE attacks, the rest are single target attacks, Each of the does 150 points of base damage, recharges in 5 seconds and takes .83 seconds to cast does this do more or less damage than fire or assault rifle ? -
Quote:Actually I didn't notice the post you are talking about, I was just referring to the 25mil+ inf/ hr postsOriginally Posted by Arbegla
Let me quote this part, that i think you missed:
So, he took the squishest, non farming build possible, and still managed to solo a council empire map (that map's huge by the way) at 0/8/no bosses, and pulled in 12.4 million inf/hour, and your willing to call that underperforming? If anything, its a testiment to how durable blasters are, where even in the squishest state possible, they can handle 0/8 council, and still pull a pretty decent profit.
Specifically I listed that thread to reply to the above.Quote:A Fire/Fire blaster will kill faster than all of those, easily
You mentioned 0/8/no bosses
Which would go to this part of the original post
Quote:Nothing in the game kills as fast as a Fire/Fire blaster for regular game content and they are very good at killing AVs as well -
Quote:http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...re#post3058889Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Are you talking about damage output or survivability? A Fire/Fire blaster will kill faster than all of those, easily (by enough to "balance" out the survivability difference, I'd say no, but I think that is unbalance-able as long as it is a goal to keep blasters very squishy). Fire/Psi Doms could keep pace before the Psy Shockwave fix. Nothing in the game kills as fast as a Fire/Fire blaster for regular game content and they are very good at killing AVs as well, since they have near top of the heap single target DPS.
I was responding to the which is easier question, a blaster to get survivability, or a scrapper to get more AoE damageQuote:Originally Posted by Arbegla
Arbegla's very detailed post on the power attributes:
Now taking your examples, If I were to say that AR/Fire is able to do more AoE damage fire/fire because it has 11 AoEs available opposed to fire/fires 10 ?
If that isn't the case, let me ask you this, when does just adding up the AoEs stop being the way to measure AoE damage ? -
Quote:No one has ever said they can't contribute, the question is are they in balance.Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
No, the counter is that Blasters can zip through content and contribute solo and on teams, so they are fine there. If there are corner cases where other powerset combinations challenges their damage too much, it's more of a case that perhaps they're overpowered and need a reduction, or that it's an out of the norm build for the regular player, so it doesn't matter. Debuffs are also an issue that adjusting Blasters to face would be a tad ridiculous, depending on how you approach it.
Arbegla covered the Scrapper AOE stuff well enough. Scrappers can do nice AOE in melee range, but they're still not on the level of what my Blasters can do. And I say this as someone with a lot of Blasters that I like.
If you can cheer the brute nerf and the tank buff as helping the game, you can't not look askance at where blasters stand right now.
Its also really hard to see how anyone can reasonably compare fire/fire to something like shields /electric, shields/fire, on scrappers or super strength/fire on a brute. -
Quote:http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Pyre_MasteryOriginally Posted by Biospark
When looking at pools and ancillaries to enhance the counter aspect, who has an easier time of it;
A) The Blaster looking for self-defense powers like defense, resistance
or...
B) The Scrapper looking for Ranged attacks and more AoE damage
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mace_Mas...er_.2F_Stalker
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mu_Maste...er_.2F_Stalker -
Quote:LOL but when you are right and someone is being snarky to you, its so much fun.Originally Posted by DSorrow
I'm wondering if you're as snarky in real life when people point out to you that you're wrong. People with a good self-esteem can accept they're wrong if it's pointed out. Take that as you will.
Unlike the other poster in this exhange, I laid out what I gathered from actually reading the report, for anyone to judge.
Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its pretty clear what happened in the flash crash, you had a low latency trader that managed to set off an exponential price decay in the shares of the 500 largest companies in the U.S. economy. The market makers decided it was better to get out of the way, and let the fall hit stop loss orders.
The question is was it deliberate on the part of the people that started it ? Well you are planning to sell a large volume of X anything you can either have your strategy to sell less as your sales cause price declines or you can sell more as the price declines. You don't have to be Milton Friedman or Adam Smith to figure out the effect of either strategy.
When you program your strategy into the financial equivalent of a BOLO and allow it to act as your agent executing trades with times measured in mili seconds, it can very easily wreak havoc.
You can go back to the use of Super Dot and the crash of 87 to see the problems that this can and does cause.
vs
from http://www.usatoday.com/money/market...ash04_ST_N.htmQuote:Analysts criticized the SEC and CFTC for taking five months to issue a diagnosis of why the market went haywire without also including how to fix it. The report detailed the fallout — loss of liquidity, a computer-driven domino selling effect, massive mispricing of stocks — caused by a large sell trade of futures contracts that mimic trading in the S&P 500 index. The trade was executed "extremely rapidly," using a computer algorithm. "I'm not sure this report does much to placate investors," says Larry Tabb, CEO of Tabb Group.
And just to continue the snarkfest maybe Yomo can get Mr. Tabb to make him coffee and I have no doubt Yomo takes flack for his mopping
Just in case you aren't familiar with the corresponding terms in red. S&P 500 = The stock index composed of the 500 largest publicly traded companies in the us. Financial equivalent of a BOLO (robotic tank) =computer algorithm. Domino effect = selling hitting stop loss points when other sells went into effect (stops). Superdot was the electronic order entry system in place at the NYSE during the crash of 87
Edit: Just a note the usa today article came out a t-4 hours as I write this -
Quote:Does this line actually work for you in real life ? I mean the whole "Do you know who I am" shtick , you are trying so hard at ?Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Hahaha, you win!!! You are better and smarter than everyone on the interwebz! (There is even no such thing as the Interwebz! It is a hybrid form of the Internet and the World Wide Web and a crazy Z for fun!).
Oops, rather you are better and smarter than I am. Gratz!
p.s. the Earth really does go around the Sun. But you'll have to verify that yourself.
And if you can make me a latte, that would be super. -
Quote:Claim:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
And I would expect you to profess equal knowledge of oncology, and boil down a 102 page report on a patients condition to two sentences that support your position. When disputed complain "Pasteur couldn't talk about germ theory on the internet"
Apparently I have a better memory than you as well.Quote:Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Hahaha. I haven't shown any tendency towards this in the past on these forums, but feel free to make stuff up. As is your right.
Judge me all you want. You can probably make a better latte than I can. You can probably juggle better than I can. I'm sure that you mop better than I do. (I'm an awful mopper).
But please, for all that's holy to you, don't pretend you know something you don't. Picking random things from the interweb does not make you an expert.
http://xkcd.com/386/
best of luck to you with your rants!
Example:
And really setting yourself as an authority of as comparable stature as Stephen Hawking has in Astronomy, in finance when you didn't get the concept of the capital gains tax ?Quote:Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
No no, not at all. I'm just trying to explain that, in real life, market makers provide stability. When they stop participating, things go badly. And I can explain briefly what happened and why in the Flash Crash, but if you don't know or care, I can't convince you otherwise. It had nothing to do with a bear raid.
Of course, flipping ice in this game isn't the same as market making.
Stephen Hawkings himself can't convince someone that the Earth goes around the sun on an internet forum!
Or that it is only paid on profits ?Quote:Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Ok, trying really hard not to be a jerk. Yes, I know that. You know that. EVERYONE knows that. Still trying not to be a jerk, but you are making it really hard...
Next, where do you live in real life that ST cap gains tax is less than 10%? Is there housing and high speed internet access available? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
That's cool. You can believe whatever you want. Just don't expect that what you believe is correct.
If this were a post on treating GIST cancer, I would expect that your response would be something like:
"But the ulna is connected to the femur, and the meosis contradicts the mitosis, so therefore glandular issues should be the primary issue."
I understand now why many people have you on ignore. I'll stop trying to educate you now. It's a little sad, but hey, ignorance is bliss.
And I would expect you to profess equal knowledge of oncology, and boil down a 102 page report on a patients condition to two sentences that support your position. When disputed complain "Pasteur couldn't talk about germ theory on the internet" -
Quote:We have had examples on this thread where other ATs can outdamage, outsurvive, and provide more team benefit all at the same time.Originally Posted by Arbegla
A_F, I've think i've listed plenty of ways where blasters are not underpowered relative to other ATs, so whats your reasoning behind it? Especially when you've agreed with my listing of things.
Blasters are more AoEs then any other class or combination, thus allowing them to dish out more overall damage then any other class or combination due to the sheer numbers of attacks available to them.
All the blasters primary, and secondary powersets add damage in one form or another, where as other ATs primary and secondary powersets may or may not mesh together to equate to solid damaging attacks. (/shield adds damage via AAO, and shield charge but BU/aim equates to about what AAO provides, and shield charge is only 1 attack, where /fire on a blaster adds 6 solid AoE attacks, 2 of which are damage toggles.)
Nothing can out AoE a blaster, due to limitations on recharge. Yes, LR + SC on a elec/shield may wipe that whole mob, but best case, you'll have to wait 25 seconds to do it again. on a fire/fire Fireball + firesword circle does the same thing, and you have combustion plus fire breath to wipe another group, then Inferno + consume for the third group, all within the same recharge, with little to no waiting in between.
The counter seems to be, "that the game is easy enough that you can use anything and still win so mathematical balance between the ATs is unimportant"
Just on the example of your fire /fire blaster vs the electric melee/Shield defense the EM has 2 other AoE attacks available, plus it has the survivability to laugh at the bosses and simply drag them with it into the next spawn and repeat till it AoEs them to death.
If you are bringing in inferno or any of the crashing nukes except blizzard that is an entirely different matter. At that pointy you have an attack that is on a very long base timer, and requires very good support from the rest of the team. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Nethergoat
the comedic prospect of AF lecturing on IRL finance is ALMOST enticement enough to take him off ignore....Almost as comical as contrasting these statements.Quote:Originally Posted by Nethergoat
basically everything I know about economies I learned by messing around with this market- before I got interested in the CoH economy I hadn't paid attention to or given any thought to how such things functioned on a macro scale.
I have no difficulty believing, that you can find stupidity easily.Quote:Originally Posted by seebs
I can get higher quality stupidity elsewhere. He's inept, but he's not actually saying enough interesting stuff to be funny. I mean, come on. I've actually been harassed by real Usenet kooks. This guy's barely even cranky. -
Quote:Nahh when I get a seminar from an investment guru it usually comes with a buffet, and a pitch for a bad investment.Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
erm, I'm not going to bother telling you where and how often you are wrong. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to work you past your random samplings of Investopedia.com
hint: you are wrong a lot. Both in frequency and amount. Seriously, send me a PM and I think I can help you understand some things. -
Quote:I have to agree with you on increasing the blasters damage output. If it was made as high it should be on just keeping overall combat effectiveness equal for damage dealing classes a moderately competent blaster would be able to burn through the game. The biggest problem blasters have is that their defensive capabilities scale very very poorly.Originally Posted by Oliin
I do think however, that devices looses a decent chunk of its usefulness when it's introduced into a larger teaming environment. Though I suppose it may well be something of a perception issue. I always feel like I'm not contributing as much when I'm on my energy/dev as I do when I play my other blasters in those situations.
Honestly, I'm unconvinced that blasters specifically need buffs (or more specifically I think increasing blaster's damage to a level justifying their relative fragility would 'break' chunks of the game) but I do think some of our powersets could stand to be improved, devices being one of them. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Dragon Kat has a long post where he calls other people trolls, and tries to spin his participation in the thread.
Short reply, blasters may be fun, but they are increasingly underpowered relative to other ATs. -
Quote:Yes but you aren't Milton Friedman, and I'm not Adam Smith. Anyway market makers and specialist firms provide stability when they feel its in their interest to do so.Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
No no, not at all. I'm just trying to explain that, in real life, market makers provide stability. When they stop participating, things go badly. And I can explain briefly what happened and why in the Flash Crash, but if you don't know or care, I can't convince you otherwise. It had nothing to do with a bear raid.
Of course, flipping ice in this game isn't the same as market making.
Stephen Hawkings himself can't convince someone that the Earth goes around the sun on an internet forum!
Its pretty clear what happened in the flash crash, you had a low latency trader that managed to set off an exponential price decay in the shares of the 500 largest companies in the U.S. economy. The market makers decided it was better to get out of the way, and let the fall hit stop loss orders.
The question is was it deliberate on the part of the people that started it ? Well you are planning to sell a large volume of X anything you can either have your strategy to sell less as your sales cause price declines or you can sell more as the price declines. You don't have to be Milton Friedman or Adam Smith to figure out the effect of either strategy.
When you program your strategy into the financial equivalent of a BOLO and allow it to act as your agent executing trades with times measured in mili seconds, it can very easily wreak havoc.
You can go back to the use of Super Dot and the crash of 87 to see the problems that this can and does cause. -
Quote:I read it as 18 pages of people talking about just what are the strengths and weaknesses of the AT, and a few people getting very upset about them doing so.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Seriously?
EIGHTEEN pages of people arguing about whether or not blasters are useless? -
Quote:I want the twirl mustache emote. I'd also like a tied to the train tracks emote for NPCS. Maybe a paragon orphanage that players can foreclose on.Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
It may be wishfull thinking, but I read that as Beer Raid.
Alot of the people in this very thread do more educating how to make influence than bragging that they swindled old Mrs Templeton out of her pension cheque. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
Flipping salvage is awesome money! You can make a billion in a week! True story! I posted how to do it earlier in this thread.
*roll eyes*
You need to read that in context. Yomo was saying his job was that of market maker or specialist firm, or day trader ? It gets really hard to tell with such a broad claim. Then he implied that there weren't enough people doing his job. What happened was the people doing the job decided it would be most advantageous for them to do it at a more profitable level, or they looked at where things were going and decided to play the momentum.
The other way to read it was he was upset, that I said " someone with a large sum of money decided to rock the market and succeeded", and that's what he does for a living
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Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
I am still completely confused why anyone even gives a **** about salvage. I really am. If it hurts you this much to purchase it from the market... don't buy it there. *boggle*
Go to AE and roll some up. Use your merits and roll some up. Or *gasp* go play the game and get some for free. You have choices here people. Yet, you treat this like the market is the only way to get salvage. Its not. It is the most convenient, and therefore *gasp* you pay more.
Are you the kind of people who go to the local convenience store and ***** out the clerk for the price of their milk / bread / whatever because it costs more than the grocery store?
If you are petitioning for the rights of the poor in a video game, you've got some serious issues that need to be addressed. Its a game. Its not real life and it most definitely not the store or the stock market or anything else that's "real". Its a game.
I'm here for the entertainment value. That and to try and figure out who Nethergoat had in mind as the target of his joke. The people that hate flippers or the flippers ? Currently, I think its both.