Archon099

If that philosophy was to rule all changes made to the game, not one power would ever have changed since release. They are always reassessing and rebalancing powers and power sets. We are merely trying to give some ideas on which ways to go about it.

Anyone else know any powers that either don't make sense for their power sets/classes or don't do their jobs?

You need not say more, lol, it's uses are few and it's cost is immense. Not that the power overall sucks, but it's not well suited to a melee DPS or stealth class. Maybe in PvP sometimes, but rarely. Something more useful would be great.

The tanker version is higher because they aren't a damage dealer, and therefore wouldn't be overpowered to have more armor. The Brute, Scrapper, and Blaster (the one I left out of that group but wasn't talking about anyway) versions are weaker because they have heavy damage.

I know you don't see what I'm wanting here... Also, no, I said nothing about Murky Cloud anywhere. I'm not suggesting dropping any of the benefits of anything in either of these two main sets I've been talking about. I merely asked to improve what people already have and give more options to people who don't want to follow what YOU want to do. If you want to be stealthy then be stealthy. By all means. Just don't leave it as our only option when stealth is meant to be a personal choice. Pools are in the game for the purpose of personal choice beyond what your class is designed for. For example, tanks are not required to take Fiery Aura if they want to travel by super jumping. The nice thing about pools is you get four of them, for a potential of 16 powers. Primary and Secondary sets only have 9 choices. Don't limit our primary/secondary choices to powers we can get with our much less important and much less restrictive pool choices. If melee classes got a version of stealth on par with Energy Cloak, and Energy Cloak was replaced with some AoE aggro grabbing aura, you could then choose to be the exact character you were before, at no cost to you! How can you NOT like getting something else for free??? Then those who wanted to play a tanking brute build could get the other power and not have to worry about their primary or secondary set being limited to only 8 armor powers because a sneaky brute fan couldn't bare to have access to more (tanking OR sneaking) sooner (Stealth at 6).

The sets are not completely balanced. I've used every armor set in the game up until having access to every power. I've used Dark Armor with a scrapper and have a rougly equal level Regen scrapper, Willpower scrapper, Invuln scrapper, and SR scrapper. Dark Armor does not last as long in a fight, and he has this stealth power everyone raves about. He has both CoF and OG, using them when applicable. I also have several high level brutes with Energy Aura, Shield Defense, Willpower, and Fiery Aura, and the Energy Aura one can't tank. It's not that he can't take hits, but he can't hold aggro. It's the only armor set brutes get without an AoE aggro grabbing toggle. Before you say "SR doesn't!", look it up, it does for brutes, so obviously they intend for them to at least have this capability. If you honestly feel that every single power set in the game is completely and perfectly balanced, not only would you be wrong, but you would also be prolonging the problem to try to bash any idea that remotely attempts to help with balance.

Anyone who has used WP knows it is one of the most godly tanks ever, even if a brute is the tank in question. Heck, my WP scrapper can replace most tanks and do better. Energy Aura can't even attempt to stand up to it at tanking. You call that balanced. Not all tank in the same way I'll admit, but EA doesn't quite accomplish tanking without taunt slotted with lots of recharge (since it's your only means of mass aggro gathering, no toggle aura).

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Again with the hostility, lol. Seriously people, there is such thing as an open mind and a smile once and a while. Contrary to what you may think, it can be beneficial to not freak out on someone for voicing their opinions. Maybe someone did it to you one day and you felt the need to vent by doing it to someone else, I won't presume to know exactly why, but it's really not necessary. I've even thanked these attackers for corrections to things that changed during my break from the game over the summer, but still catch more hostility for hostility's sake. I left middle school over a decade ago and I'm not looking to revisit, thanks.

Have I trashed any of your ideas in any threads you were discussing? I have only found a total of four different ideas proposed in this thread:
- Stalker/Energy Aura/Repulse
- Tank (not necessarily tankER) Stealth powers
- Knockback on MM pets instead of Knockdown (especially in the case of Necromancy, which has melee pets chasing those tossed by the lich)
- Tankers getting AoE sleep moves in Epic Pools
(forgive me if I forgot anyone, these were just off the top of my head)

None seem to be proposed by the people dissecting my every post to try to make it out to be meaningless despite not even understanding the concept. Then the moment I reply to one of these ideas posted, the trolls descend yet again to attack my support of their idea. They never attacked the original poster really, but my I must be a tasty morsel. Forgive me for treading on your bridge.

Shadowfall offers both fear resistance and protection (mag 3.7 something), and Steamy Mist offers both confuse resistance and protection (same magnitude protection). I checked the numbers. I forget the exact numbers, but they do offer both duration resistance and magnitude protection if you scroll to the bottom of the detailed stats for the power.

I said PRECISELY this in my posts. Perhaps you should have read them. This was the whole point of my post saying that they should be changed to accommodate this issue.

This would make sense if they made Tough/Weave offer better stats for Scraps/Tanks/Brutes, but they didn't. They changed the powers to benefit some classes more than others because they would be overpowered on some. They made Leadership better for support classes because it's their job and because a scrapper offering the same bonus would be not only survivable and damage dealing, but would now have buffing to add to his stellar repertoire. Look at Epic Pools. People complain that scrappers have some of the worst moves compared to others. Why? They already have the best of both worlds: damage with armor. There isn't much they CAN'T do besides ranged moves and support.

Controllers on the other hand have amazing Epic Pool powers. Why? They have no armor and low damage (in most cases, no nitpicking please, mine do damage just fine, but they have few "purely attack moves"). So what epics did they get? Blaster moves and Tanker moves. Now check what they get benefits to in pools. Tough and Weave offer them more stats than Tanks and Scraps. Why? Because those guys already get armor. Pools were not made to be better for some classes simply to support what they are good at; they were also tweaked to make some better at things they AREN'T good at. They gave controllers improved pool powers in almost all areas because of this. Better Tough/Weave and better Leadership (a tad under defenders). Pools were altered for BALANCE IN GENERAL. Not for any one particular rule.

My point about changing Concealment: Stealth for melee classes follows this idea and the idea that since melee class stealth moves don't suppress, they obviously DON'T WANT them to. I am merely asking them to do what they ALREADY did in a way that won't cause problems for others.

You will still have stealthy brutes and tanks, and the people who want to tank will have their durable tanks and brute, and everyone will be happy. I've never seen such resistance to an idea with no negative side-effects. You're happy. I'm happy. Do you hate being happy???

LOL, sorry for that oversight. Mine is the same on my character because of my Acc IO I put into CoF. I was quoting that instead of the base, my bad.

Why so hostile? :-/ I'm trying to be nice here and voice an opinion and you are acting like I'm trying to convert you to another religion and condemn you to hell or something.

Concealment: Stealth does NOT provide more armor for scrappers/tankers/brutes. It provides about 2.5% defense and 35 ft suppressing PvE stealth and a minor speed debuff. To all classes. It has NO benefit for melee armor classes. The numbers are exactly the same. Tough provides 15% base smash/lethal resists to classes with primary or secondary armor sets and provides about 20% base resistance to controllers/defenders/blasters. THAT is a difference intended to help a build that doesn't normally get something.

What I'm saying is that if YOU want stealth, YOU can choose the pool power. I don't want them putting weird versions of Fly and Teleport into my power sets in place of moves my character class is meant for. Why not take out all the good AoE damage from your blaster and put in a move EVERYONE can choose at will at level 6 and up. That's just retarded, and that's why I am calling it stupid for them to leave what is essentially a pool power in a high-tier armor power space when you could give someone, I don't know, maybe some real armor. If I can almost duplicate the effects at level 6 with ANY class, why make it a late-game move for one particular class? Why don't we just take out your Stalker's last melee attack and give him a glorified Aid Other? That's the level of stupidity in stealth armor.

I'm not saying that my opinion trumps all and you should lose your option to do what YOU may want to do. I'm not going to stop you from giving your tanker Aid Other or your Mastermind Provoke, but at this point you are saying that because YOU want a certain thing in your build, EVERYONE has to suffer through it, lol.

My solution to the problem is something that would give YOU exactly what you want/already have while giving people who like other play styles that option, which is why pools exist. So YOU can do what you want, and I can do what I want, and no one has to be forced into an unnecessary play style or forced to give up a power option to suit the minority of builds who deviate for their own amusement. I love changing up my class's purpose as much as the next guy, but it shouldn't be forced into our primary and secondary power sets.

Again, I still don't understand where the hostility comes from. You act like I told you what to name your firstborn under penalty of death, when I was merely posing a solution to make everyone happy. "Everyone want some cake?" "YOU SUCK! DIE! Don't force your cake on me!" Sweet jeezus, let's get along, lol.

Not because only "I" want it, but because it doesn't suit the class's primary purpose in the sense of tanks, and it doesn't provide enough of a benefit for how late it comes in the set. I am all in favor of them doing stuff to allow diversity, but that's what POOL powers are for. Pool powers have different effectiveness based on the class that chooses them. Why not give Concealment: Stealth this same benefit? Make it so if a melee class takes Stealth, it doesn't suppress, doesn't slow you down, and costs a tad less to make up for armor toggle costs. They made Leadership buffs better with defenders and melee pool attacks capable of scrapper crits and tanker gauntlet. Why not do the same for Stealth to keep the people who WANT stealth happy while still giving the people who want their build to perform for another primary purpose happy as well?

Is that so wrong? Heck, they could even throw in graphical effects for stealth in the costume creator so you can make it look the same as CoD or EC. Move the beneficial effects like +perception and immobilize protection over to a different Dark Armor power and add a more beneficial power to the build.

This would give melee classes the same option of functionality without having to limit their power choices within their Primary and Secondary sets. Then sneaky brutes could be sneaky, and tanky brutes could be tanky, and everyone would be happy! Besides, that's the whole reason Pool powers were put in the game: to allow personalization of a build beyond it's normal potential, like stealthing, healing, flying, etc.

I would just like to take a second to say that I also really like the Dark Armor set. The only point I've tried to make about Cloak of Fear, which many people like, is the fact that it has the same accuracy as Oppressive Gloom, but even if it's status effect doesn't overpower their defenses to it (stun/fear protection), CoF at least offers an accuracy debuff. OG does nothing but hurt you if it faces immunity. This alone gives CoF more applications. Also, Dark Regen is not a regeneration bonus, it's a heal. +Regen is not a part of the power, and even if OG is providing 30 DPS, the enemies attack at maybe once every 4 seconds or so for 100 damage, making about 25 DPS. Even the fastest melee attacks aren't often less than 3 second recharge, and jaegers are no different. If your DA scrapper/tanker/brute has a regen rate of 30 hp/sec, then it would be effectively reducing your regen rate to zero. That same effect would require 2 stacks of regen debuffs from Kinetics: Transference. All I'm saying is that CoF at least has a fallback plan and more than one effect. I'm not denouncing the use of either and in fact use and alternate between both depending on the situation.

My argument against stealth for Brutes and Tankers is that they cost large amounts of endurance for such a small effect. It costs as much as any typical armor power (and with the number of toggles in Dark Armor, this can be an issue). It also offers stealth ratings on par with a pool power. Even Medicine: Aid Other can't stand up to Empathy: Heal Other. It's interruptibile, slower at recharging, and costs more end, only to offer the same amount healed. Heal Other is a drastic improvement over this move. (Imagine the Empath being unable to heal because of Snow Storm interrupting it 24/7).

The only benefit that the armor set stealth moves (not referring to Hide here) have over Concealment: Stealth is that they don't suppress. Sure the cost is minimally less and the minuscule speed debuff isn't there, but you hardly notice those. They made it so that Pool powers have class-specific changes, like Leadership buffs are better for defenders, Tough/Weave are better for classes that don't already have armor, and pool attacks can get scrapper/stalker crits, Scourge bonuses, Containment bonuses, etc. Would it be so hard to make it so that in the event an armor-using class wanted Stealth, they could merely take the pool version and have the end cost reduced (to help with armor end costs), the suppression removed, and the speed debuff removed to be on par with Cloak of Darkness and Energy Cloak?

This would give melee classes the same option of functionality without having to limit their power choices within their Primary and Secondary sets. Then sneaky brutes could be sneaky, and tanky brutes could be tanky, and everyone would be happy! Besides, that's the whole reason Pool powers were put in the game: to allow personalization of a build beyond it's normal potential, like being sneaky, healing, flying, etc.

True. I know stealth isn't an aggro eraser, but it does limit the aggro radius. I just feel the tanker could benefit more from a move that has more to offer than a smaller radius, since having a smaller aggro radius than your teammates can cause problems.

My DA scrapper changes toggles all the time too, and I know that's part of how the set works, but I feel that there are far better moves in the armor set arsenals than just a minor stealth and defense buff. Even auto powers offer more. True Grit, Dodge, etc., all have more or better bonuses, no end cost, and don't cause aggro issues.

The same was claimed of Brutes because they also said they didn't want there to be any one specific role to any one class and wanted soloing to be more even. Brutes were also intended to have tanking capabilities not only by the words of the developers, but by the powers and power changes they were given:
- Brute: Primary: Taunt (not Confront)
- Brute: Super Reflexes: Evasion (added an AoE taunt effect, unlike scrapper/stalker versions)
- High threat level

I'm not saying to use stuff on what it isn't meant for, and I'm not simply saying don't use stuff for what it isn't useful on. You are oversimplifying my point again.

What I mean is that you can't call a move that debuffs accuracy as well as interrupts enemy attacks with fear useless. For the record, I almost always have little white ghostly faces popping up on the enemies around me, and even if I don't, the acc debuff is better than the defense buff of Cloak of Darkness by 50%. If the disorient of Oppressive Gloom doesn't proc, it still hurts and does nothing additional. I love both moves and use both moves, but they have their purpose in different places. From my experience I mitigate more damage with the fear aura than with the disorient one, but the disorienting one is cheaper.

I'm still not quite sure why this was an issue, since I was merely trying to defend Dark Armor while still asking for it to get just a little more fluff to make it comparable in effectiveness to other armor sets. You seem to keep attacking Dark Armor and frankly, if that's the route you want to go, by all means run with it. Maybe they will be more likely to improve it if the set seems worse than it is. I don't wanna fight, hugs all around, I just want Dark Armor to get a little love like Energy Aura and Electric Armor received recently.

Again, you are missing my point. According to that picture posted recently they did change melee class stealthing (thank you, Leo G, I was not aware of that change, but that's good news in some cases). Even if they did change it, it is worse for a tank than I had originally thought. Since it no longer suppresses for Tankers or tanking Brutes, it now means that unless your team has non-suppressing stealth as well, they will have aggro that you don't. Heck, I'd rather my tank's aggro radius was bigger than have it be smaller than the rest of my team's.

Here's the scenario you seem to be in favor of: Two enemy spawns are too close together, so you turn on Cloak of Darkness and charge the first one. You don't aggro the second. This is where you are stopping and saying it's good. Now hold on a second. The scrappers, stalkers, dominators, and whoever else might come into range, are NOT stealthed by your Cloak of Darkness. Even if they DO have Concealment: Stealth, it will suppress and leave them visible to the other spawn. But the tank won't suppress, meaning his aggro radius will be smaller than that of his team. This is not good for a tanker. My earlier opinion was that at worst it would be annoying, and at best it would be unhelpful. Now at worst it would be the death of frailer teammates. Don't get me wrong, this is good for scrappers and non-tanking brutes, but for a tank it's bad.

As for the thing about MMs without forcefield, I already mentioned that Dark Miasma can be used to debuff in place of using armor to tank, which was a point I made in an earlier post, and you still chose to bash on it despite now supporting the idea yourself. :-/ I'm starting to think you are trying to be belligerent here. I merely made a point of noting an issue with giving a tank a stealth move instead of a tank move. I'm not here to start a war. I don't want to dissect post after post to trash on ideas. I'm not calling your opinions or ideas asinine, and would appreciate the same respect in return.

Defense does not suppress when stealth suppresses. The two stealth values you were looking at were the PvP range (the larger number, you can be seen from farther away by players than by NPCs) and the PvE range (the 35 is the distance NPCs can see you, which is smaller, providing better protection against computer characters than against other players).

I've checked the numbers on this. Any character of mine that has a stealth power ALWAYS has that stat being monitored in the Combat Stats window of the game, which I keep under my health/end/xp bars. The moment I attack from inside Steamy Mist, my stealth in BOTH numbers drops to zero. Same for every other stealth power I've used. They fully suppress when you affect an enemy (damage/debuff on enemies, not heals/buffs on teammates) or when an enemy affects you (damage/mez/debuff from enemies, but not heals/buffs from teammates). Some debuffs do NOT break stealth though, in the case of Shield Defense: AAO and Willpower: RttC. They always hit, and therefore they made them not affect stealth, otherwise stalkers would be unable to assassinate users of those powers.

Yeah, unless you have Robotics/Forcefields, your pets shouldn't be let loose on aggressive and expected to tank that well, lol. My tank personally uses Defensive stance and the pool power Provoke to taunt, so he gets all aggro. He spreads the damage to his pets, then uses Twilight Grasp to heal it up. AoEs are still a major issue for any MM tank. Brutes luckily don't have to deal with that, which is why I say they are "more often" the better tank choice if you feel your team needs a tank.

Hehe, true, it doesn't "fully" replace Cloak of Darkness, but Stealth does replace Energy Cloak with the minor speed debuff that you can barely notice, especially if you got Swift anyway. Not to mention I COMPLETELY forgot you can get those patrol stealth moves from PvP zones, lol, and used conservatively they can last quite a while.

As for Dark Armor, I have never made one who didn't have Leaping, so I always had CJ too. I didn't really need DA: CoD until perception is involved, at which point it was the only purpose besides something like 2.5% or 3% defense... for the end cost, that's pretty lame considering most defense auto powers offer at least 8%.

Hey, I'm a huge fan of unconventional teaming. My Earth/Storm/Ice controller can replace a tanker and keep the team alive just fine. I don't believe EVERY team NEEDS a tank. That's ridiculous. What I have been discussing is TANKS, not necessarily TANKERS. There is a difference in terminology there. A tank has the job of taking the aggro, and a tanker is a durable hero archetype with average damage. Not the same thing.

In the event that your team IS following a tank-n-spank tactic, the Brute is one of the classes that can fulfill the role of Tank. The other villain class that can is only able if it is designed to. Forcefield MMs can shield up their pets and let the pets soak up aggro, and that works as a tank too. Making those pets invisible might make their job harder though, which supports my point. My Robots/Dark Miasma Mastermind actually uses Presence: Provoke to taunt enemies while his pets remain on defensive, and he AoE heals any damage that is spread out across them, and he tanks better than most brutes, using debuffs instead of armor and pet HP as part of his own HP pool (via defensive stance). My Shadowfall DOES suppress (to all the naysayers out there who say it doesn't), and my MM tanks great. In his case though, his stealth power is still providing TONS of benefits beyond mere stealth. It gives him more defense than Energy Cloak or Cloak of Darkness, it provides scrapper-level resistance to neg. energy, energy and psionic, and it offers fear protection. This benefit applies to everyone around me, and it gives people nearby the option of ceasing attacks in order to re-stealth and drop aggro. Now if Energy Cloak was a group AoE stealth toggle and did more than give minor defense, I could maybe understand it on a tank.

Try having your non-robotic pets tank for you on aggressive stance if you have a set other than Forcefields. Especially thugs, dang those things die so fast. For example, Thugs/Poison, or Thugs/Pain Dom. You are saying that since a few builds of MMs can tank, MMs are tanks. That's like saying that since some builds of defenders can heal, defenders are healers. When it comes down to it though, if you DO want to use the tank-n-spank tactic with villains, you are MORE LIKELY to have a brute tank than a MM tank. With the number of buff sets (Thermal, Cold Dom, FF, and Sonic Res shield buffs) villains began with access to (I know proliferation gave them to heroes now too, but still), even a brute can reach the stats of a tank or better. Throw in some minimal heals to help out maybe and you have a tank. Not all MMs can claim that status. I wouldn't call my thugs tanks if someone threw fire shields on them and popped out some Warmth moves every few seconds. Brutes can at least manage that. Heck, I have a Willpower scrapper who can tank without being built for it; you can't tell me a Willpower brute (having more damage and HP, but the same armor buff numbers) couldn't at least do that.

I stand corrected. I meant to say that it stacks nicely in the sense that teammates can throw even the weakest fear up and it will afflict bosses as well. Even the pool fear powers will overlap. The other nice thing about a fear aura is the fact that it will affect other players in PvP very reliably because not many armor sets provide protection to it. A stun aura doesn't quite accomplish that.

Yeah, you turn it off, and turn on Cloak of Fear. You merely showed the numbers to justify why I said Cloak of Fear has situational benefits over Oppressive Gloom.

You call 60 damage every second laughable? How much damage does a Dark Blast: Gloom do per second? I doubt it's 60 each tick, maybe with a fulcrum shift. You're saying that having that melting away your hitpoints (EVERY SECOND, mind you), in addition to the damage the enemies deal because they weren't stunned in the first place, isn't a problem? Have you fought warlocks in World of Warcraft? DoT is not to be ignored. It's essentially a HP Regen debuff. How many Dark Armor scrappers have 60 HP regen per second? Let me know when you find one and I'll call completely negating your regen and hurting you on top of it while not providing the desired stun effect is laughable.

Again, as I said I turn it off when there is a hard hitting boss or other stun resistant enemies because it has LESS use than Cloak of Fear in that instance. I didn't say that it would kill you, but that it will be WORSE for you. I was merely defending Cloak of Fear, not bashing Oppressive Gloom. I have and use both where they are applicable.

I'm a programmer, lol. Continual upgrading, fixing, and re-balancing is a part of the MAINTENANCE of a piece of software. I'm looking at it right here in one of my old textbooks. Maintenance is the updating of existing software to keep up with demand and functionality. When you download a Windows Update, it's a maintenance issue, even if they are changing something that was "originally intended" when Windows came out.

You missed my point. I am saying stealth does that in ALL cases, like you are. There are others saying that's not true, despite my first-hand experience with it. They are claiming first-hand experience that says otherwise. I said stealth suppresses end of story, in all cases. The reason I said stealth was useless for the tank is that at no point during the fight does the tank want his stealth to unsuppress. What tank would turn on PFF knowing full well his team would be next on the menu? He WANTS his stealth to suppress in order to do his job and keep his team from dying, but if that's what he wants, then why have that the primary purpose of a power for him? If he doesn't even want the +stealth effect, why not leave it out and put something better into his +minor defense toggle? The stealth effect is at worst annoying (causing you to not maintain aggro long enough to herd or not letting enemies see you, who will instead see your team) and at worst ineffective (suppressing the moment you affect an enemy or are affected by one, which happens 24/7 in a tank's world).

It's for this reason that I don't care if a teammate casts Grant Invisibility on my tank, so long as they grant it on EVERYONE else so that we all get the benefits, but if I'm charging in and someone who isn't stealthed is too close, they won't get hit before mine suppresses. Again, that's more an issue of the teammate's intelligence (i.e. waiting for the tank to have aggro before charging in), not so much an issue of invis being a problem. It just opens the doors for that problem.

LOL, ok, I give you that. Stealth and +Perception are great PvP effects for tanks and brutes, but are somewhat minimal in purpose in PvE. Not that you'll never use them, but I don't get flood insurance when I live in the mountains, and I don't get avalanche insurance when I live on the beach. In PvP there is no such thing as a bad insurance policy. Any edge is an edge in that situation. Even a tank doesn't really get to "tank" in PvP; he just is doing what everyone else is doing in PvP, which is to kill before dying.

Taking a tank into PvP is always fun when he's invisible, lol, messes people up big-time. I just have yet to see it do what everyone loves it for in PvE. True it can hold off the alpha strike until you are very close, but is half a second head-start really worth a full power selection when you have options like other tanks have? Shield Charge, now THAT'S a head-start, lol. Chilling Embrace? That move comes so early and is so incredibly awesome. But stealth? It comes late and the benefits are just... meh. When a pool power can fully replace your move, it's defeated its purpose.

I'm pretty sure all stealth powers suppress. My controller with steamy mist can attest to this. My Dark Armor scrapper can attest to this. The nice thing about steamy mist is that if someone else on the team, like a blaster, wants to drop some aggro, after ten seconds of safety from attacks while not attacking and standing in steamy mist, he is stealthed again. If you attack during that time it suppresses again, so it gives people a fallback point without making them panic and run out of the room away from potential heals. It also provides a wealth of resistances, status protection, and minor defense. Cloak of Darkness and Energy Cloak provide that of Concealment: Stealth, with a tiny bit smaller end cost and no speed debuff (albeit also minor). If it weren't for the immobilize protection and +perception in Cloak of Darkness, I wouldn't see too much reason to get it over the pool equivalent. Energy Cloak is even more lacking, making stealth seem the better option (can pick up Invisibility later, since anyone getting Energy Cloak didn't want to be seen anyway).

I mean, I do understand possibly wanting one, but when the pool equivalents are the same but with follow up powers like Invis and Phase Shift being added to your potential choice list, I don't see much reason for a Primary/Secondary power set stealth move in a tank.