Arilou
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Posts
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Joined
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It's not an alternate dimension, but I love a Medieval World (like we have Roman World!) with King Arthur and his knights and stuff.
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Quote:But his name is Fluffy, and he's not very good at his job.Originally Posted by LISAR
And there is a guard dog. -
Quote:I do see people spending great deal of effort getting the rularuu swords nad the vanguard laser blades.Originally Posted by Jophiel
Having spent considerable time in the parts of the forum dedicated to art and costume creation and showing off concepts, this doesn't really seem the case with this game. For instance, I almost never saw people showing off costumes using Vanguard bits until it was made universally available. I almost never see people showing off concepts using the Roman armor or Rularuu weapons.
Conversely, I see people using paid booster parts all the time. I don't doubt that people who hit 50 and accumulate A/E merits will get these bits incidentally just because they're there. I don't have any real objection to their being there. But I don't have any real reason to believe that any significant number of people will stay with the game and push for 50 with these pieces being any real motivator. -
Quote:Why do you think they give you that "Why did you quite playing?" survey?Originally Posted by rsclark
Only if the player's voice only has two volumes - shouting and totally silent.
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Quote:It's probably more of a case of "If we do costume pieces are we going to gate them?" Yes/No.Originally Posted by Ashen_EU
I know the economics behind it, partially understand them too (I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by pretending I'm an economic expert). But it still strikes me that unless you have an art department with nothing worthwhile to do then assigning them to something that will probably not add a noticeable length of play-time and is a gamble at improving customer satisfaction is a mistake.
Anyway, I'm off for now. Getting late and I've got work. Been a pleasure having a reasoned discussion on an internet forum, been a while.
Take care of yourself Arilou.
Ashen Out.
With a side-order of "Let's make something special for 50's to show off to shwo they're 50's. -
Quote:Those people are mistaken. You can't convert threads or thread components to shards, although theother way is possible.Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I have a related question: I have been told by many people that one can convert salvage you get from Incarnate trials to Shards. Now I see where one can convert Threads to Shards, but not the other way around?
Am I just not seeing something, or are these people mistaken?
I know Shards are a bit out of fashion, but I have several people with Incarnate unlocked who have almost no shards, and cant slot their Alpha even at tier 1.
You CAN however unlock your alpha slot powers using threads and thread components (and evenmix and match, say craft tier 1 alpha with shards and tie 2 wih threads)
The thread recipes are found by scrolling down the shard recipes, like when you select what combination of T3's you need for a T4. -
Quote:Ah.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, that's just the rub - what I want more than anything else is power customization and powerset proliferation. More realistically, I want COSTUMES. At character creation, more specifically, so I can be inspired to make more, newer characters. I find that the game has more than enough content 1-50, personally, even for a solo player. I'll never refuse more, but I'm not really all that much a content person. I care about my characters, less so about the world around them.
That is to say, I'm not a content person provide enough content exists, which it doesn't in the case of the Incarnate system, but I'm pretty sure "enough" will never exist for it as it does for the rest of the game.
Personally, I want more ways to customize my characters. More custom animations, more custom effects, more colour option on existing effects (Curse you, Ice powers!), more costumes as broadly available as possible, more mounting points on our characters, a more extensive character editor which allows for greater asymmetrical design. I want muscular women, I want bubble face helmets, I want jet packs, I want back packs, I want wraparound cloaks, I want butt capes, I want skirt robes and long skirts, I want better long hair for men, I want a greater selection of non-robotic options for Robotic Arms, I want more types of Monster legs, I want better animal faces with selectable muzzles as face details, I want more faces with higher-resolution textures.
I could replay this entire game, as is, a thousand times over counting from now and never get bored if I had enough freedom to replay it with a truly different character every time, a character that matched what's in my head as perfectly as possible. I don't need new things to DO, I need new things to BE, and a decent game to be those things in will suffice.
The problem for you is that you want some of the most demanding stuff for the devs to create, that at the same time provides some of the least returns (I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that gameplay>cosmetics for most people)
Powerset proliferation I expect to get at some point: It's at the other endof the spectrum (good returns for relatively little work, at least compared to costume parts)
Personally I'm the exact opposite. I have my characters and aren't really interested in grindig through the entire game again (with it's incredibly varying-in-quality stuff) I might roll another alt or to, but mostly the idea of grinding through 1-50 fills me with disgust. I want stuff to do, new challenges and new things.
And so how are the devs going to satisfy us both? They really can't. They're going to have to prioritize, and each of us is going to whine i the ohter is prioritized. -
Quote:Wrong. It has different specific strategies but it's really very typical.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's the thing - City of Heroes is not your typical MMO. .
And they still hae that toolkit, they just have to go and get it. (and mind, some people probably LIKE that you have o go through some arduous tasks to earn the epaulets or whatever, just because it makes them look special an serves as proofs of their "mighty deeds")Quote:I remember in the days of old when we used to pat ourselves on the back how we're here as much because we like THIS game as because we don't like OTHER games. Now that City of Heroes has competition, a lot of why people come here is exactly what sets it apart - the customization. That's a large reason why I find that stuffing customization behind gates is a bad idea. The broader the tool kit players have to work with, the more powerful the customization.
I don't think the game can remain competitive forever simply becuase the engine is getting old. So yeah.Quote:Personally, I don't think competing with conventional MMOs in conventional ways is a good idea. City of Heroes simply isn't competitive, not against the more popular MMOs out there. If I wanted raid grind or costume drops and greater challenge, I would not have come to City of Heroes. I'm here because this is the only game which allows me to eat my cake and have it, too.
I have no idea if they're actually making a good or bad decision (I can see their reasoning, but not neccessarily the outcome) but if the game ever gets boring... Well, I'll leave, not as if I haven't done it before. I find it more fun to play now than I have i years, though, I'm getting a steady diet of new stuff to do and new things to unlock, that keeps me satisfied.Quote:I've been accused of being selfish when I say this whole thing is moving the game in a bad direction for everybody, accused that I'm saying it because only I don't like it. But I feel that Paragon Studios aren't playing to the game's strengths, and haven't for a very long time. They're trying to invent brand new strengths for the game, and for a seven year old game, I honestly don't see that having nearly enough of an impact to justify the immense cost of development.
And this particular thing? It' not as if it hasn't been a part of the game since day 1. Capes. General's epaulets. Witch hats. Auras.
I think you have the casuality wrong. Some people are going to wear t *because it is gated*. As a way of showing off.Quote:These costumes are a prime example. Yes, they look... Decent. But how many people are actually going to use them? Now how many CAN - lots of people have 50s. But how many WILL? Matt Miller seems to regard these costume pieces as somehow objectively "better," and as such worthy of being a level 50 unlock. In this, Matt Miller is provably wrong, because there exists no such thing as a costume piece which is "better" without the context of the rest of the costume it exists in, the theme of the character using it and the aesthetic preference of the player behind the wheel.
No, I don't get it either, but some people like that. -
Quote:Issue 18 had Praetoria, Issue 19 had two story arcs, I20 didn't have much, true, but I21 will have a new zone.Originally Posted by Mirai
Issue 19 had a little variety. Issue 20 was all Incarnate stuff. And maybe some other team-required stuff that I didn't notice. Oh, wait, Issue 20 also added some black helicopters. Whee.
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Quote:Of course it is.Originally Posted by Ashen_EU
Cut out my tongue, sew my mouth shut, cut off my fingers and lobotomise me. Until then my voice as a player is how I choose to talk to the devs and game staff, whether on the forums or through other channels.
I, and I would imagine a lot of people, pay for this game because we love it. We love the freedom involved and the ability to create that exists far above any other game on the market. The fact that I continue to pay for this game has nothing to do with gated gear, especially not gated gear that does NOTHING. I'm not going to raise a huge fuss about this because, frankly, it isn't worth it. I'm also not going out of my way to try and use it. Honestly, bar the immediate surge we will see in what will probably be the first couple of weeks I would be interested to see how many characters will earn and subsequently ignore this armour.
If they want to keep people for any length of time the best way is to make genuinely interesting content, whether story arcs, trials or power sets. Gated, non-functional fluff is fine in a micro-transaction model but for a lot of people not in a monthly payment model.
It's not even as if most posts I've seen are asking for instant access with no work, many would prefer an account wide unlock, hell even the voucher system for the auras would work. For this to actually add ANY real amount of play-time to a persons account it would have to be so expensive to unlock as to shame the Incarnate powers.
But that's just my opinion. Take it or leave it.
The thing is, genuinely interesting content takes work, and time, and money. They're trying, but the meantime they're putting out these small little incentives, they're not expecting them to do much on their own, but with a lot of them they might...
They can't get by on just doing genuinely good stuff (because then we'd get an update every two years and half of the players would quite in-between) and that's assuming they're capable of pushing it out: There's just not enough resources.
So they have to rely on all these litle gimmicks to keep people playing. And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, and it's different for everyone what does and doesen't work. -
Quote:People like different things. Film at eleven. A company takes a classic turn-based strategy franchise and decides to turn it into an FPS set in a completely different time perid. Some people like it, I certainly don't, and sure as hell won't buy it. But does that mean that no one is going to like it? No.Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
I'm willing to argue there have been mis-steps in that regard in the past; bases, PVP, and arguably AE. The fact that "it's the direction things are going" is not the same as, "it's the best possible choice".
It might be. I dunno. But you don't, either. And we're both hoping the Devs do.
I just think it's unfortunate that what you propose is the best path for the game is the worse (not worst, mind) path for me - and others. -
Quote:I'm just curious: What DO you want? The last big updates we've gotten pretty much every kind of content update (story arcs, tf's, trials, low-level content... The only thing lacking is PvP) I'm genuinely curious. (The two things that they've kind of put on a back-burner is of course customization for pool powers and power proliferation, but I'm fairly sure they're going to get working on that at some point)Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
While my disappointment has been going stead for about six months now, if not more, I'm pretty much in the same boat. My thought process went something like:
1. Oh, cool, costumes!
2. Wait, there has to be a catch.
3. They're level 50 only.
4. Son of a #$%!
5. Fine, whatever, another patch note I don't care about. What else is in there?
6. AoE Buffs. Huh... Well, that'll make my Masterminds a lot less tedious. Cool. -
Quote:What players though? Where? You're not neccessarily representative. (You might be though)Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Oh, they do have a choice. They can either attempt to "give the players what they want," as Positron once promised, obviously to the best of their ability and keep people coming back because they're satisfied... Or they can build their game on Skinner box design and keep people coming back because they are clinically addicted. One design approach makes for a better game than the other.
And the way to see if the players are satisfied is... *drumroll* if they keep playing. (Mind, thre are a bunch of other factors that don't directly tie in to the game itself to why people play or don't playbut that's a different matter)
The devs are trying to catch as many players as possible, but that's not possible (and it's not just amatter of limited resources either: Some people just like different things) -
Quote:Well, yes. I'm cynical when it comes to these things. Doesen't mean the devs aren't trying to make a fun game, but they need to make money. And there's always a tradeoff: How much work do we have to put in? The devs aren't your friends. They're selling you something, and they want your money. They're providing a service in return, but to expect them to forgo making changes that might earn them profit (which means contiung tooperate the game, mind) is naive.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You have a very strange view of a business model. The kind of view which sees customers as cattle to be herded into whatever position earns you the highest revenue while keeping them as docile as possible.
And that's fine. You're not responding. But some people are. Are more people like you than people who like unlocking stuff? (And remember there's a bit of an exclusivity thing as well "look, I'm special!") I don't know. Maybe the devs datamine these sorts of things.Quote:What keeps me playing the longest is being allowed to play the character I want when I want to play that character for as long as I want to play it. Making me play characters I don't like with the vague promise that I may like them more some day is about as convincing an argument as making me keep striking my thumb with a hammer with the promise that I'll stop feeling the pain eventually. If I'm dumb enough to do it even once, I'm not going to want to suffer the pain until it improves.
Keeping me from my costumes keeps me from playing the game. In fact, I have a thought experiment for you: Take away ALL costume pieces out of the editor and force everyone to start the game in their underwear until they start unlocking pieces at level 10, one by one through specific tasks. Then tell me how many people stick around for your "business model."
The trick of course is to always give you a taste of something: Not give you everything atonce (then you'll get bored and stop playing) and not too slow (then you'll give up in frustration) of course, that sweet spot is different for everyone, and for the devs it's largly a guessing game.
They're doing that too (Steampunk pack). They're not putting all their apples in one basket in this regard. But some people prefer paying directly and some indirectly (and some do both)Quote:So here's a thought - LET ME SPEND REAL MONEY FOR THIS. Don't gate it behind arbitrary limits. Put a dollar price on it and I'll probably pay it. Put a time price on it, and I probably won't. Seriously, how much time do you think this will buy for anyone? -
Quote:The jangling of their wallets IS the voice of the players.Originally Posted by Ashen_EU
Fair point, though it would just be nice to think that the developers listened to the people playing and not just the jangling of their wallets.
Like I said, I don't mind. In fact for me this update has nothing I can physically use bar the aoe buffs. It would be nice to be able to get the auras, but my disappointment lasted all of five minutes.
Generally though this move will probably annoy quite a few players, several of them quite vocal, though I have no real idea what sort of portion of the population that would entail.
And it's not as if the devs have a choice: The game needs to turn a profit or they won't get paid, and thus can't offer any kind of content at all. -
Quote:Of course they know that, and that's why they're doing all sorts of content updates as well. (not neccessarily what you personally find fun at the moment, but then again, resources are limited) but a lot of people are willing to pay for new shinies.Originally Posted by Mirai
See, I'm more likely to keep playing if I have a variety of fun things to do. Tricking me into playing unfun stuff by dangling nice looking fluff just wouldn't work on me. I suppose that kind of thing does work on a lot of people.
But I have plenty of fun things to do in the game anyway, so I don't plan to leave anytime soon. I feel a bit sorry for people who will only keep playing if they can work to unlock fluff. -
Quote:Except that people have proven themselves wlling to spend a lot of time (and time=money in the MMO world) in order to earn cosmetic rewards.Originally Posted by Ashen_EU
The argument could be made that changing pieces of clothing that do nothing for stats, abilities, function or general game mechanics in any way does not classify as "character progression". I don't particularly care either way about the armour (I think it's ugly) but I think that's the main problem people have with the level lock.
The abilities and level shifts? Fine, they're effectively new levels. The ability to wear slightly shinier shoulders that do nothing? Kind of odd to lock it.
Like I said, I don't mind about it at all (well bar the auras, dislike the way they're handled but I'm not gonna raise a fuss) but that was what I was getting from people. -
Quote:It's the same thing: A reason to keep paying that monthly fee. You might not be one to do that, but others will. And making them actually play the game makes people more likely to keep paying.Originally Posted by Mirai
Incarnate slots are character progression. Incarnate costume pieces are fluff. Even if I unlocked them, I tend to doubt that I'd use them on any of my 11 level 50 characters.
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Quote:If people play this game for the character creation they are going to gate custom parts behind content, so that those people *keep* playing and thus earn them money.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
For powers. Not costume pieces. Not in a game who bills itself as having the best customization around. Boy, it's like I'm looking through a wormhole into Jack Emmert explaining gating Capes at level 20.
That's the MMORPG business model.
EDIT: The alternative is selling it directly, and yes, they do that too. But then people complain about having to pay for costume pieces (although they have to do s anyway, just different payment methods) so the devs alternate the methods to keep everyone... Not happy, but at least give everyone something and keep them paying. -
Quote:Honestly, the only part of the game I've experienced as excessively laggy is the BAF under certain conditions (last patch seems to have improvd it a bit, although the escape part is till laggy, probably for the same reason ITF is: Eg. OVerlapping auras)Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And your point is?
People kept running Hami when it was an absolute slideshow. When "playing" Hami meant "Get the leader targeted, put on follow, and put some power on auto, because you're not going to be doing it yourself in your 5 seconds per frame Hami raid." People kept running the ITF despite the lag. People keep doing Rikti raids despite lag.
What makes you say, other than wanting a strawman about people quitting, that lag makes people avoid anything? They complain, yes, and properly so. -
Quote:"locked behind arbitrary gates" is kind of the point of MMO's. It's called "character progression".Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Aha, I found the the perfect quote that sums up everything I feel is wrong with the game at present. OK, then. Thanks to Matt Miller's explanation, I now know not to waste my effort on those pieces. I guess when they gave out the Vanguard pieces at character creation, they had to have SOMETHING which was locked behind arbitrary gates, but knowing that makes it easy to ignore.
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Quote:If the issue is JUST raiding you can get the stuff relatively quickly just by doing WST's and the notice and shard conversons. Expensive still, but it's still doable purpling stuff out in a cople of months.Originally Posted by Anchor
The percentage of people who shun all other player contact might be tiny minority, but the percentage who don't want to raid in a game that didn't have mandatory progression-by-raiding-drops system until six months ago is probably bigger than you think.
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Quote:Two Hours? Isn't the record for KHTF something like 10 mintues and fo ITF something like 17?Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But that's like only 2 hours playtime
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Quote:That's time to spare to run a trial, though. (at least on Virtue) they usually take about half an hour.Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
I support this 110%.
/signed.
I only get about an hour to an hour and a half to play every 2-3 days. This would let me go Incarnate, if I'd like.
Great idea. -
Quote:Not to say that the trials are very hard (they really aren't) but they're also pretty easy to screw up by not paying basic attention to what you're doing.
For something billed as a challenge, the trials often aren't, or at least they aren't enough of one that everybody actually has to be up to the challenge.