AlienOne

The latter part of the quote (bolded for emphasis) is what got my wheels turning... I am personally guilty of being the sort of person who not only never takes the "chance" IOs in any of the sets, I sometimes in the past have encouraged others not to, "because it's not worth it."

Now, chalk that up to my habit of always "5-slotting" a set (because the 6th set bonus--especially on purple sets--never seems to be worth it) and wanting to get "as much damage as possible" from the power.


But... am I really getting as much damage as I can from a power by avoiding the "chance" IO? Well, technically, according to a "spreadsheet" that never trusts the *reliability* of "chance", yeah... I am. As an added note (that may also have bearing on my choice), I've never been the "gambling" sort of person.

"Always go with the sure thing," I say.

But, what is chance? And is taking the chance worth it?

I was extremely satisfied with the "continuous, never-ending, health/endurance bars always full" build that I had...

However, I thought, "It would be cool to see something pop off like that in my normal attack chains... How would it affect them? If one or two procs popped off at the same time, would it shave 3 or 4 seconds off the *usual* time it takes to take a mob down... randomly? This would be interesting to see!"

First, I decided to check and see what kind of actual numbers I'd be changing on each of the powers, and overall in the "global" numbers...

Let's take (for example) the "Gravity Well" power... With Hetacomb 5-slotted in it (without the proc IO), it did 383.8 points of total damage at any given time. Well... Since I already had it 5 slotted, how much would taking out the Hetacomb: Damage IO hurt it?

Not a heck of a lot. Taking that IO out took the overall damage down to 363.8 total points of damage. Hmph. 20 points is 20 points....But, is it worth a tradeout with a proc that has a 33% chance to do an extra 107.1 points of damage on top of that?

I was convinced. I wound up changing out ALL the straight damage IOs (losing a few overall points here and there) for a LOT of "chance."

On top of that, I even traded out my Gravity Shield for Gravimetric Snare, based off of a recent build by Princess Darkstar (which I was a bit hard on). That not only saved me some slots to put elsewhere, but yet another "chance" for some damage mitigation (the chance for hold proc)...

"Who knows?" I thought... "Maybe one 20% chance for something to proc seems like a little thing... But, how about seven or eight 20-33% chances for something happening working in tandem?" Something's bound to happen, right?

Sure enough! During the next few missions I did, I had to sometimes double-check my buffs just to make sure I wasn't being fulcrum shifted or something...

I'm converted. I'm a believer. I'm gonna have to alter my guide and my guide's builds a bit to reflect this newfound knowledge, thanks to you guys...




...You remember that "you know you play too much CoH when..." thread? Yeah, this is how I know I play CoH too much...

Here's the new build.

So, how do you view "chance?" Has it proved to be worth it to you in-game?

"Alien"

*EDIT*
Using the same "chance" philosophy, I decided to respec my tri-form build as well...

LoL, you really are the type that likes to pick fights aren't you?

Do you honestly think personal statements like that aren't as derailing to topics as a comment about bunnies or a rick'roll?

lmao.

"Alien"

...and continue with the discussion.

If you can't admit to your own friggin' recorded words....lol...I guess this debate IS over.

"Alien"

Seriously, what does that mean? That if a "final, most uber awesome ultimate optimal build" is finally somehow created (most likely by your 'genious mathematical skillz'), then all anyone has to do for any future advice for ANY build is to just link to what you've put together in Mid's, and have proved 'beyond the shadow of a doubt' is "the perfect build?"

Screw giving advice. ANYONE should be able to do "normal content," right?

I have one question though: Why do people still come for Kheld advice then?

Most people I've seen coming for Kheld advice (whichever form it may be) aren't wanting to build an "AV soloer" or a "+4x8 soloer."

They're just wanting advice on what the community thinks about different builds, why they would/wouldn't take certain powers, or (to quote Justaris) find a build that's "viable."

So, if "by most people's definitions" (or the definition you just laid out in your own quote--you said it, I didn't) 'not sucking' is doing stuff on basic level content, by that standard alone, that proves human-forming Khelds are damn awesome.

But... If a human former (by that definition) is that good, then...

Why say giving human-form advice is "pointing out a mediocre ways to play?" (your own quote provided below for your own lack of search/remembrance skills)

While we're talking about that, why don't we discuss this next point?

You're suggesting here that people who "build how they like" don't care about performance?

Please explain.

So, are you suggestiong that any build that anyone on these forums have ever suggested (since they are "sub-optimal") WASN'T suggested with the "best performance" in mind?

Let's take the OP for example. He asked for a "best performance" human-only build.

Your response to anyone giving a build in this regard (because of your already stated hatred for human-forming) is that it is "mediocre" or "can only handle basic level content"....Correct?

No? Then why make a statement like is, as if the Kheldian community DIDN'T have "good performance" in mind when giving a build, whether it's human-only or not?

So, by them coming to ask for advice, then we are suggesting they can do content at a HIGHER level on our builds, correct?

I know my builds can handle the higher level content. They're human-only builds, but.... *somehow*, by some magical essence of some kind, they are able to handle content well above "normal basic level content."

Need I say more?

In that last quote, you were specifically addressing me.

Can you explain to me exactly how I'm supposed to take that?

Please do.

If I'm reading that correctly, you're suggesting not only that playing a human-form Kheldian means that I don't care about performance, you're also saying that I can't do anything above basic level content. On top of that, you're also saying that because I can't do anything above basic level content, there's no sense in coming up with any build advice FOR a human-form Kheldian.

All of those statements are patently false, incorrect, and borderline defamatory.

It's all there. Read your own words for yourself.

I couldn't make this junk up if I had a year to sit and think about it.

"Alien"

I have not, because I say the same things in any thread asking about tri-forming. In fact, as stated before, I've said the same thing in my human-only guide.

So, in fact, you're the one ignoring what I've been saying all along. You seem to think that I have trouble admitting to that. I do not, and have stated as such many times.

Then why do you make statements like it will get "slaughtered?" You're contradicting yourself.

And, I'll also add that while it's "sub-optimal," it's not "very much so" sub-optimal. That is suggesting that it can't do anything "above standard level content." Which you have ALSO stated.

So, have you stated in so many words that you think it sucks?

Yeah, pretty much.

Absolutely agreed. No arguments here, and has been something that I've always supported.

As stated before, I have no problem with people pointing out the strengths of a tri-former. I do the same.

In fact, I don't get "annoyed" at someone pointing out the strengths of a tri-former.

What I DO get annoyed by is the fact that you keep presenting human-forming as some sort of "mediocre" or "sucky" or "can only handle basic level content" way to play (Which you have also said, and I can quote if necessary).

That is, in fact, a bald-faced LIE.

And you damn well know it.

Absolutely agreed. I have no problem with this. But, to add to that, WITHOLDING facts to make human form seem like "teh suck" (like witholding the fact that human form is perfectly capable of handling the SAME level content just as easily) is just as much of an error as not presenting any facts at all.

If anything, it proves your knowledge of human-form gameplay is somewhere between "slim" and "none."

"Alien"

I'm going off of what you have implied throughout just about every post referring to human-only play.

I don't think it takes a whole lot of work to see that posting "you'll get slaughtered" is pretty much the same as saying "anything less than 'optimal play' sucks."

If you're going to get "slaughtered" if you play anything less than tri-form, then it "sucks," right?

I think anyone (except you, evidently) could see that.

"Alien"

Yeah, that may be the case with me, as my fire/rad does happen to be a tiny lady, and I've got a pretty deep voice...haha!

"Alien"

Yes, but you've already mentioned that you don't take Light Form either, which offers (sometimes) superior resistance to Dwarf Form.

If one had Light Form in a situation like that, you could easily go on a *kill rampage* when the tank dies without much worry of dying, and therefore still survive.

With a human-form Warshade, I've built a team to do a TF specifically WITHOUT a tank to see if I could take all alpha strikes and most of the aggro (including the AVs), and done so successfully.

However, I think that may depend on the AV. There are situations where having a taunt of some kind from your Dwarf form (either WS or PB) will benefit a team in a situation like that.

I recall a specific situation where the tank DC'd on the final boss fight against Lunaruu the Mad from the Faathim the Kind Task Force. I was on my tri-form build for my PB at the time, and the team never lost a beat nor had any deaths, due to me immediately switching to Dwarf form and taunting him. Same thing happened against Ghost Widow once on an STF. I was on my tri-form build with my Warshade, switched to Dwarf the moment the Stone tank DC'd, and was able to "save" a "Master of Statesman's Task Force" attempt. By the time the tank returned, GW was already down, and we still had no deaths.

So, yes... It will depend on the situation. Dwarf (on teams) I think can prove to be invaluable, but in my experience, a human-nova bi-form approach has proved to be the *most* effective damage-wise (imo) when soloing (referring to PB here--WSs are a different story, due to mires), although I will mention that it doesn't really matter which way you choose to play (human-only, bi, or tri-form), as long as you have a well-built Kheldian, you're going to be highly surviveable.

"Alien"

I would appreciate that more than you could possibly know.

Obsidian asked a while back if I could start "admitting" that performance from a tri-former is better (or accused me of not doing it, whichever it was), and I did so. In fact, not only have I included the "disclaimer" in posts for any first-timer that asks, I also included it in the beginning of a guide that has absolutely nothing to do with tri-forms.

All I ask is the same from the tri-form community. Sure, performance from a human-former may not be "as good," but gosh darn it if you can't be a little less negative in your approach about it... Any reader who hears how you approach it could more than easily get the impression that playing human-form all but blows.

When I read a post that presents human-forming like that, I can't help but jump in (albeit a bit too abrasive) and clarify some issues.

Sure, I may prefer to play human over tri-form, but I don't present playing tri-form as "pretty much the worst possible route you could go."

You may prefer to play tri-form, and that's cool. Just don't go around telling everyone that may be interested in creating a human-form build that "if you do, you won't be able to do anything more than "basic level content."

Because that's a lie.

"Alien"

I disagree. I don't think that "most people" coming to this section of the forums (and even more so to the "forums" in general) are all looking for "teh pwnz0rs wai 2 p14y."

I think that's a pretty broad (and incorrect) assumption to make.

YOU may think it's "easy" to build a Kheld, because you've played them for so long. Others may not. Even people familiar with Khelds seem to still ask me for advice on *gasp* tri-forming... There is already more proof in the amount of posts there has been over the years in this section alone that people can easily get frustrated with building and playing a Kheld, regardless of whether or not they're on "the easiest difficulty setting."

All kinds come to these boards. Not JUST the "number crunchers." Not JUST the "human-only" crowd. Not JUST the "fun factor" people.

It sounds to me that you're pretty closed-minded when it comes to "alternative ways to play." You say "you don't care," but then you get all into trying to accuse me of encouraging people to "play with mediocrity."

If I didn't care about "performance," then I wouldn't have written a guide to optimize human-form Warshading. That's a pretty big assumption you're making there.

If posting videos that prove I'm doing content at +2 or higher isn't proof enough for you that I'm doing things above "basic level content," I truly don't know what to tell you.

But, that's my point. You seem to think playing human-only is "mediocre." That "it will get slaughtered." That it "can only handle basic level content."

That is absolutely incorrect, and is what shows that you not only don't know what you're talking about when making any reference to human-only play, it is you who might need to "check your facts."

If a human-former can't handle more than "basic level content," how am I doing it?

If a human-former is only "mediocre," why does it seem "awesome" to anyone who's seen me play it?

Maybe you should look beyond your personal hatred of the playstyle and try to see what it's actually capable of.

That's essentially what I was just saying in my earlier posts... You just happen to be able to say it better.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering... If Obsidian considers anyone who isn't constantly running at +4x8 while solo "the suck," then maybe I'd slightly understand where he's coming from.

I say "slightly," because you'd still have to consider how many actual people in-game are running at those settings...

I consistently run at +2x8 or +3x8 myself (whether solo or teamed), but that doesn't mean I believe everyone else should as well, or "they're mediocre." That's ridiculous.

As a side note, it's interesting to note that most fire/kins who "farm" that I've run across, refuse to run content higher than +2x8, unless they have at least 1 or 2 other "pocket lvl 50s" helping them....

Hero 1 said himself at this year's Comic-Con that the +4x8 setting was/is meant for people who like to "maximize" their builds or just test their surviveability. Obsidian seems like one of those people. I know I am one of those people...

But, placing "anyone who comes for help" into that same category is very narrow-minded.

If someone comes on the forums and says "give me the best human-form build," you do what? Give him the best human-form build.

You don't berate him for going that direction, neither do you make it appear that he would "suck" in any way, shape, or form, because that would be, in fact, absolutely false.

According to Obsidian, yes.

According to myself, no.

That's the basic disagreement.

If his build can do 100DPS more than my build, he wants the title of "teh best," regardless of whether or not we both just took a mob down in less than 30 seconds, with a possible 10 second disparity between our times. Regardless of whether or not I died or had fun doing the same thing he just did (but a few seconds longer), my build would still be considered "inferior."

Exactly.

The "casual player" seems to be some sort of "anomaly" in the mathmetician's "calculations"...lol

That's exactly where the heart of the problem is...

By saying "there's only one true build," you're actually limiting people to a bland, "one way to play" universe. That's taking away "options." It's taking away, in come cases, "the fun factor." It's taking away "diversity."

Why? So you can say you are the person who came up with "the ultimate way to play?"

I believe the devs are against this thought process, and that's why there is a "power selection" screen in the first place! Why? Because you have a choice in how you want to make your character. If this weren't the case, the devs would have created "ready-made" heroes that just unlocked access to those "necessary" powers as you leveled up, without there being any sort of choice as to which power you'd rather have. Sure, some powers are better than others, but if you've already developed a "single best way to play," then what's the point in having a choice in the first place?

If Super Speed is, say, "the best way to travel," then why pick any of the other travel powers? You wouldn't be able to "maximize your speed" if you didn't pick it, so... Let's say someone picked "fly." Are then now "gimped?"

Hell no! They just picked, based on the various options available to them, what's called "their own playstyle."

Now, I truly do understand where you're coming from... I actually live by that philosophy myself: "always try to be the best that you can be in whatever you do."

I think that's a great philosophy. However, I live by that philosophy in the parameters of whatever in this game that's made me happy. So, if playing a human-form Warshade makes me happier and more satisfied than playing a tri-form Warshade, then I will "strive to be the best that I can be while playing a human-form Warshade."

Just because someone has chosen a different playstyle does not mean they cannot live by that code. Even suggesting that they can't is ludicrous.

"Alien"

I apologize if you thought everything I was saying was directed at you personally. I have a tendency to be pretty abrasive at time, especially when something I've put a lot of time and effort into (human-only forms) is being blatantly attacked with a "omg, if you pick that playstyle you're going to get slaughtered!" point of view.

It's simply not the case, and no matter how much time I've placed into playing, respec'ing, helping other people build theirs, writing guides, and yes, 'running the numbers,' people still seem to have this skewed view of "how much it really sucks."

Well, I've got news for them: it may not be the "best of the best of the ubernicity-wow-holy-mother-of-all-that's-sacred" way to play, but it's still pretty darn good.

And I'll come on the boards and re-state it for any new guy who comes on the boards and gets bombarded with the "stay away from the leprosy that is human-form play!" BS.

If someone asks for a tri-form build, do I jump in the thread and start yelling nonsense about "omg, this way to play is stupid, because I think it is! You really should go human form!"? No!

Sure, you're entitled to state what you want on these boards (within certain restrictions), but....why?

If the eternally-argued point of "it's much easier to level up a tri-former than a human-former if you're a first-time Kheld" has already been laid on the table, and both parties can agree on that, then.... Why? Because you have some kind of self-entitled notion that everyone should follow your particular playstyle/build choice?

I say "no" to that. And I'll continue to do so until the devs see fit to ban me from playing Kheldians because I love them too much.


Actually, I'm not. What I should have done was specify that the negativity isn't just coming from the boards, nor specifically from you guys... For every person sending me a PM asking about the build that's on VestigeOne, there are 6 ridiculing me for playing a human-only form in the first place. I'm not bothered by comments directed at me, I'm bothered by the overly negative tone/view on human-form play.

It's a little more than strange... It's almost prejudice.

This is where we disagree the most, I think. I believe we're coming from different viewpoints here, because you're thinking in terms of "I can continually fire attacks until my endurance is drained, no matter if that drops me out of the forms, because I can just hit stygian circle by that time," and I'm thinking in terms of "a human former has anywhere from 5 to 8 toggles running at any given time."

Therefore, thinking in terms of "I could go down to 1 endurance before having a 100 endurance refill" is very incorrect when referencing a human-only build. While, I'm sure that theory works for a bi or tri former, it most certainly would not for a human-former, unless you're a big fan of re-activating 8 toggles after every mob.

If I can illustrate what I'm talking about, maybe you'll get a better picture:

Running into a mob of, say, +2s won't pose much of a problem (unless there are heavy mezzers involved, in which case you'll have to start factoring in '40 second mez times'...lol). You'll basically be able to hit Gravity Well (and maybe an Ebon Eye) on one minion and you've got your first dead body for heals. Doing a regular attack chain will get all but the bosses down in a matter of seconds.

+4s are a different story, again, especially if there are mezzers. You may be able to get a minion down almost as quickly, but since not just the minions are taking longer to kill, it's everyone in the mob that's taking longer to kill, you're going to start running into problems, because at some point during the fight, you may find that the guys you WERE able to get down "quickly" have already disappeared, and you're stuck with a useless Stygian Circle.

It's also worth noting that when fighting bosses at those levels, THAT is where you're really going to run into the biggest endurance draining issues. Fighting a boss will almost assuredly (during solo play) take longer than it takes for the bodies on the ground to completely disappear--again, leaving you with a useless Stygian Circle.

On top of that, I'm sure you're already aware that Stygian Circle actually costs endurance to use, and therefore proves that one can't "use 99 endurance before a 100 endurance refill." You could technically cue up the power, and when you have enough endurance in your bar for it to activate, it will re-fill your endurance bar... However, doing so on ANY human-form build will immediately drop your shields for lack of the proper amount of endurance to run them, which brings a human-former back to the "stone age" way of playing, back before the devs fixed the "toggles suppress" issue.

Therefore, it is with this thought process that I say a set like "Impervium Armor" actually DOES improve a human-former's build, because it both ups his endurance recovery rate (which he'll need to run all those toggles and fight at the same time--a problem most "form dancers" don't run into, and the viewpoint I assume you're coming from) and it ups his overall endurance capacity.

This makes for overall better "continuous performance" (especially during boss fights), and ultimately "better numbers," than just franken-slotting, in my opinion.

As an added note, I'd say that although I agree that I probably wouldn't make a build "specifically for endurance sapping enemies," I would say that it's prudent to build any AT for "all situations," and considering that it's universally agreed upon that any other "human-form" kind of AT in the game is "gimped" without a bit of extra endurance recovery, I'd say a human-form Kheld is no exception to the "rule."

Silly me.

I sometimes forget that I'm also taking into account that I'm using other powers some people don't have access to (i.e. Nemesis Staff), and that could be the reason why I don't ever get around to using my Ebon Eye before my "big" powers are already recharged...

You're right.

"Alien"

This is exactly how I've seen Khelds from the beginning, and what I will fight for until the end of time.

If you want a "clear-cut, no-bones-about-it, 'single build to rule them all,'" play a damn scrapper.

This is the way Khelds used to be, and the way I'd like to see them return to. I remember a time when bringing up the search bar to build a team would show several Khelds with the search comment of what they were: "tri-former," "bi-form/tanker," "human-only."

...And it didn't matter which one you were getting... They'd still do a good job.

Hell... what am I saying? It still doesn't matter "which build" of Kheld you're getting... they're still going to be a big contributor.


As a side note, I also think that Khelds, although some think they are "strictly a damage AT," Khelds don't really lend themselves to the whole "DPS is what makes them awesome" argument (see Bill Z Bubba's thread on PBs).

Therefore, creating a "build to rule them all" based solely on "this is the best damage per second/fastest recharge you'll achieve, and therefore THIS is the best build," while ignoring all of the other utilities a Kheld has in his arsenal, is just ignorant.

"Alien"

That only happens if you actually SAY them.

I tend to take things at face value, so if you say something "figuratively," and don't explain that what you're saying IS figurative, I will take it as a "literal" statement. (example: the simple statemtent "Black Dwarf does better damage than Human form." I'll call BS on it every time. However, if you say "a Bi-former properly using Dwarf form specifically for the double-mire can achieve a higher DPS than a human-former," I'll say, "You are correct, sir.")

Not sure if that's what you meant by "adding a lot of things I didn't say" though...


Also, I'll add this:

It depends on what you think a "mountain" and a "molehill" is. That's purely an opinionistic statement (and one you're entitled to make, even if it's not true) based on what you personally think is important in this game.

I happen to think "freedom of build expression" is the most important *flagship* I must "bear," mainly because the "majority" thinks that there is only *one* way to do things "right."

I happen to disagree, and would add that this thought process goes completely against what Khelds are about (and is most likely why I tend to like this AT better than any others).

So, if someone jumps all over someone else about "oh, you can't/shouldn't do this because it sucks" or "my way of doing it is WAY better," then I will jump headfirst into that boat to "rock it," because I believe that to be wrong.

You may disagree, but I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

Thing is, my opinion seems to tread too harshly on other people's opinions, due to the fact that I have to continually prove that their opinions aren't "always fact." They're opinions.

Personally, I could give a damn if someone is afraid I'm going to call their bluff when they're spitting BS.

They can just send me some more nasty comments or PMs if it makes them feel any better.

It's not going to change my stance on "sticking up" for the "alternative build/DPS-wha?" community one iota.

Youre opinion isn't proven "right" based on a "community popularity contest."

Your opinion isn't made "right" based on if you have a lot of friends who like you.

Your opinion isn't a "fact" based on whether or not you like me or think my opinion sucks.

Your opinion is quite simply this: an opinion.

As is mine.

And if you don't like it, tough beans.

I'm here to stay.

"Alien"