7thCynic

The PvP topic is tricky. Im not saying I disagree w/you in any of your points, only that they could have convinced themselves that in the 'long run' the changes would help the game. But I have no doubt that the majority of the feedback on the changes were negative, but I also think that the majority of the feedback on PvP BEFORE the changes were ALSO negative.

I think in that case they actually listened to the feedback in initiating a PvP change (al beit late), but ignored the feedback they got during testing.

Selective hearing maybe?

Altho Horatio - I mentioned him in the 1st post - says theres changes coming, I dount its anything drastic, as he's already stated the 5th wont be showing up as Axis America, as many have requested. If anything, it'll prolly be more dialogue and such. And Im not convinced that will enuff to get people to think the TF is fun (or makes sense), MM temp power or not.

And you know, even tho Horatio is takin the responsibility/blame for the TF, it really shouldnt stop @ him. Someone had to approve it, no? Kinda sad. You know with MA now avail to us, the devs really have to raise the bar in regards to content. A basic starting point may be to take the subjective feedback a lil more seriously.

If the TF was an MA arc, how many stars would it have? Really.

But isnt the new TF/SF a good example of possibly not listening enough? With it being the bulk of i15, I would think it would be quite imperitive that they got it right. Yeah maybe they didnt have enuff time or resources, but in the end, if you want people to love it, youll have to go back and make drastic changes regardless. Which is somthing Im not sure theyre willing/able to do. So were stuck with it like were stuck w/positron. Unless that is, despite the feedback and similarly to pvP, they dont think it needs the drastic change.

Everyone was running ITFs when it came out and still are. I dont really hear any calls for BSFs, and without many changes, I dont think I will.

Excellent point. So then, how are the devs to figure it out? Based on how many are screaming? If so, then i13 PvP should have been a no-brainer, for as you suggest, those that may have liked it, probably didnt bother to say anything.

I suppose thats a good example.

My initial reaction is to say, well maybe others (the non-pvp mass majority) told the devs they liked it. But in thinking abt it, i doubt they were testing it much, especially compared to the hardcore PvPers.

So yeah, you're right.

So how much SHOULD the devs listen to subjective feedback?

I was wondering this as I read a thread that complained that the vines pattern was released w/i15 without any changes. (Apparently the OP thought there was a concensus that it needed a revamp.) Obviously, other posters mention that altho the devs do appreciate that kind of feedback, they're primarily looking for bugs. Sounds right, but should that be the case?

Look @ the Positron TF. Not very popular due to it being long & boring. But when we ask for a revamp, they say theyd rather use their resources into creating new, than 'fixing' old. (This has been their recent stance w/zones as well.) So looks like we're stuck with it the way it is, right?

Now take the new TF/SFs, as far as I know, most people were not happy with them. And altho they have been since tweaked, they were released w/many of the complaints still there. (Yes, I know Horacio posted abt possible furth adjustments.)

So, if you release something that the majority dont like, even tho they tell you so in beta, while knowing that you dont have the resources to modify it later, isnt that just bad business? (Understand I mean story and content, not bugs.)

Should subjective feedback be taken more seriously?

What do you guys think?

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...Riech in the Villain Side of the Storyline is a push over compared to the Heroes one(makes sense since he gets help).

The Hero one is a Wimp Version of Rommy with a weaker stun...

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Hold on, so youre saying:
SF Reich < TF Reich < ITF Rom?

Wow, talk abt different experiences. Ive tackled Rom w/a team of 4 in minutes, SF Reich took over an hour w/a full team.

SF Reich definitely needs to be toned down. If they want to make him tough, fine - but find a better way. This is just boring grinding, which i think is the opposite of what they were aiming for.

Do we need yet another one of these type of threads? Really?

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Devs, I beg you, don't waste more money on "server capacity" for lazy people who don't want any other option, especially on servers that already have more hardware dedicated to them than any other, not to mention special consideration already in the forms of caps in order to attempt to avoid lag and crashing issues.

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Im with Bill.

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I'm not interested in "serious idea's"

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Yeah, serious ideas are soooooooooo over-rated.

Do we know if it will apply to MA missions?

How abt every zone = PvP?

Place various AV/Heroes & defences @ their respective bases in PvP zones (cept for RV, cuz its the future). Make it so if 1 side can raid that base and kill the AV/Heroes, they can enter the other side.

They should add these guys to the game in some way. Either came or just write them in. No need to have nameless heroes on the splash page. Use what u already have.

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I don't see any ... lf sewer team posts.

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Sewer team....isnt that kinda like a farm? Hmmm....

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I would really like to see the level cap raise to 60 over another power set.

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Those that ask for this really dont understand the mechanics of the game. Its just not going to happen. Ever. Period. Sorry.

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Sometimes you don't have to re-create the wheel....or design a new wheel altogether....to come up with something that could bring new interest to a variety of ATs.

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You know, Im not one of those complainin abt how small i15 is, and I wouldnt normally agree w/the subject of this thread. BUT....having read this post - especially the part abt the wheel - made me realize that maybe its NOT that hard for them to do and MAYBE make some people happy. So Im all for it.

(I like the shadow Imp idea too.)

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I don't pay mechanics to put parts in my car willy-nilly and still not have it work.

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No, you are (and have been) paying the dealership for the car, even tho the car NEVER started ever. The mechanic is working for free. He fixed the radiator and added a new stereo, prob is the engine tho.

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Where are all the people that say they like the new PvP?

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Once again, I didnt say that.

I agree that something needs to be done abt support toons. They cant afford to be gimped. I think that DR and travel suppression should maybe be removed from any type of ally buff.

How abt that?

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all this arena options, rewards and fluff don't count they could be added to old pvp too w/o breaking anything

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Here is the issue @ hand. So you wanted extra arena options and rewards, but PvP mechanics left untouched? My point is made. I mean really, why even bother to reply?

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you said that there are more players in pvp now..i would assume from this comment that ppl like new pvp otherelse why would they try to hard to pvp...according to you..sry i have to LOL here.

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I still dont see where the majority is. You know, I dont really LOL, but if I did, Id prolly LOL here. HA!

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So you admit that PvP is more broken now than it was before and the majority of people don't like the changes. Good to see we're finally on the same page.

[/ QUOTE ]Lets put it this way: The car still wont start but there have been some repairs made.

And if by majority you mean majority of those that liked PvP the way it was, then the answer is certainly yes.

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7th, could you please explain why you disliked the old PvP so much? Just wondering.

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Thats a loaded question based on my original, and really only, point.

Lets try this in baby steps:
Its obvious by many posts that those that hate the changes, enjoyed how PvP was before. Thats not to say that they didnt think there were any probs, just not as many as there probably really were. (Sure thats subjective, but its a guaranteed majority opinion.)

With that said, its a safe bet that any changes made to PvP, much less drastic ones, would not be welcome by the more 'hardcore' PvP community. Why overhaul something that was working well, right?

So if I were to list the issues that made original PvP broken, most of those said people would just disagree with me.

Instead, we should try and anwer this question: Why dont/didnt people PvP?
And lets start with Macs list of answers: Because some people...
1. didn't like the lack of reward. (Rewards added - check)
2. didn't like that they had to build their character differently. (Dual builds added - check)
3. didn't like the unpredictability. (And those people still dont)
4. didn't like that their Superman clone could die in half a second. (Answer for that: Slow down the game, as the devs are trying to)
5. just didn't want to PvP. (And those people still dont)
6. might've even been turned off by the people they met while PvP'ing. (Very true, but quite possible that some of those people have since left)

Now let me add my own:
7. didnt like how seemingly unbalanced it was between ATs. (still lingering issues here)
8. didnt like how you had to tailor your toon around pvp, and not pvp around your toon. (read: carbon copy characters w/acro, 2+ travel powers, etc - seems to have been replaced w/hibernate, PS, etc)
9. didnt like the hit-and-run tactics. (travel suppression - check)
10. cant accept others are better than them. (And those people still dont)

I think thats a fair list of possible answers, whether or not you agree with them. Have they all been resolved? No, and some will never be. Did it creat new probs? In some cases yes. But it is obvious that it has gotten generally better, and that the devs have worked, and are still working in PvPs best interest.

Also for additional details on what was fixed, check out Project_X593 nice list on page 9.

Wow you guys are awesome @ spotting sarcasm. Really.

Gibson:
Sure when CoV came out - but I already said that unfortunately - even for me - it died long before i13.

Mac:
The irony of your post is - you have answered the question your expecting me to answer. Why would I need to when you unknowingly already have? Hehehe..

EnD:
Did I say the majority of people like the changes?

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If I'm crying at all, it's because they attempted to fix it - note I didn't say actually fix it. Quite the opposite.

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Isnt that what I said? But whether or not it was fixed was the subjective part that I wasnt getting into. The crying was not.

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Yup, now I'm sure you didn't PvP on Liberty before i13.

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Ok youre right I didnt. I was lying. Bad bad me.

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Whirligig.

Look it up.

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Is that some kinda attempt @ being clever? Cuz if thats the case, maybe Im too dumb to get it. I mean, I know what it means without having to look it up, but Im not sure there ANY use for it in this context.

Are you being spiritual perhaps?