Techbot Alpha
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Quote:Personally, I'd say 40 shards and maybe one or two of the other Incarnate components. And that'd be it.Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
QR: Ok Techbot, now that you have gotten that out of the system...
How much should a Notice cost to *craft*.
Remember it will be available to ALL players as well.
You need 1 for a Rare. You need 3 more for a Very Rare AND the othe parts to craft the two commons, two uncommons and two rares needed for a Very Rare. That is NOT an insignificant time investment as it is.
And, lets be honest here, doing the WST is NOT a hard option. It's honestly not, unless you have atrocious luck with team mates or honest to god do find it that hard to play well.
In the above model, Teamers are STILL faster than soloers, and doing the WST is STILL the prefered option, because you haven't just spent 40 shards that could have gone towards making a Favour of the Well, or other components you need.
As I said before, gating Notices of the Well to once per week (If the Devs want it to stay that way. Im not psychic, so I dont know.) from any source would stop exploiting of the system, while leaving bot hthe WST and teaming as the 'fastest options by far, while at the same time not doing the equivelant of flipping the casual soloers both birds at once. -
Quote:I love it when people turn out to be psychic...Originally Posted by Vanden
That's not what he meant. He meant-
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Quote:Unable to Team! = Not Wanting to TeamOriginally Posted by Atomic_Woman
It doesn't matter, because even if there were no 'speed bumps' on the Incarnate stuff you still wouldn't be able to get it because you refuse to team and/or do TFs. Nobody is 'robbing' you of your 'progress' except yourself.
Yes, there are people out there who are genuinely strapped for time. I'm arguing on their behalf, nothing more. But people seem set that those filthy, filthy soloers only do it because they want to, and hate all teams and life as we know it.
Which is about as realistic as making my left boot president... -
Quote:*sigh*Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
This is really what it boils down to. Apparently some people think getting their Incarnate stuff completely solo shouldn't be much slower than doing it via the WTF. Considering that the entire Incarnate system is described as an end-game, team-based system, I think the devs are being generous giving the 'soloists' a second option at all, but it seems proponents on the other side don't feel that's enough.
Point out ONE incident, any incident anywhere, where anyone has argued that the solo option shouldn't be slower than the WTF method.
I will then promptly laugh at them and call them mad.
No one that I have seen (bar maybe one nutjob in another thread) has asked for that.
That does NOT mean 'over 400 hours solid if you're insanely lucky and play the market' is an acceptable fob off.
Slower Than Teaming! = A major grind that will likely have you die from boredom first.
That's like saying;
"Hey, people have been wanting a new travel option to Las Vegas for some time now. We've installed a footpath for 'em! Sure, it'll take you a month of hiking and you'll be near dead by the time you get there because we didn't put any shops along the way, but hey! It's an option, right? =D" -
Mega /Signed
This needs to happen Yesterday. I mean it. -
And while the rest of the forums is touted as some of the best in the industry...
This one thread has reminded me just what utter scumbags people can be when sat behind a monitor.
Well done. Very well done. -
Quote:I've never said that. I was in fact giving someone a light grilling in the announcement thread because they basically were asking for the Alpha slot to not only be soloable to have it faster than team players....which is pants on head retarded, frankly. Teaming has and always will be the faster option in game. Of that I do not doubt and do not contest.Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
And this hasn't changed. You can still team or solo as you so wish. Even for your Incarnate stuff (not this very second, but we know it's coming).
However, expecting the 'anti-teaming' option to be anyway near as fast as the option that the devs are actively trying to encourage is pretty much folly.
That does not mean I accept 100mil and 88 shards as anything near 'Reasonable', though. I'm hoping that it is indeed a case of 'Test, then scale down' here. -
Quote:Borderline pedantic I may be, but I'm also not arrogant enough to argue with The ArcanaOriginally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is that Notices are not gated at one per week even now. Its the WST that is so gated in terms of its rewards using task force diminishing returns code, so far as I know. Unfortunately, the evidence I have for this is against the forum rules to discuss.
Everyone who thinks they can write two lines of pseudo-code thinks they know how the engine is written. While you are thinking about how easy or hard it is to add this feature to the game, let me give you another problem to think about. Back in I9 I discovered a bug in Pool B drops. Pool B drops were supposed to have a 10% chance to drop per mission complete. So I'm sure somewhere in the game, using your pseudo-code logic, there was a statement that said if random > 0.1 then DropB.
The bug: the drop was actually happening 7.14% of the time. The devs confirmed the bug, never told me what it was, and never told me what the remedy was. But they *did* tell me at the time that it was tricky enough that they were leaving it like that for the time being. So I don't even know if it was *ever* fixed.
Must have been a really busy week, that they couldn't just change the 0.0714 to 0.1 in the code. And that was a really strange typo to make.
I never pretended to understand the code, though. The pseudo-code line was just an example of intent.
If it is honestly that difficult, then fair enough. That doesn't detract from it being a method of ensuring balance of Notices, however. I doubt any method of balance would be an easy one, t'be honest. And I still think that current itteration is not exactly realistic to achieve for those it is supposedly aimed at. -
Quote:I'm not arguing against that. Not one jot.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Have you ever wondered why that is? I have. I used to play this SOE game called Everquest Online Adventures. You simply could not solo effectively past level 20 in that game. Most quests at that level and above were too difficult to complete without at least 1-2 other people. I used to be angry about this. But then I started looking into why MMORPG developers promote teaming.
And no matter how hard people try to ignore it, for the majority of people teaming experience, engaging with others to complete tasks, tend to be the experiences that people who play these types of games find the most rewarding. Sure, this doesn't mean everyone thinks this way, but it's enough people that MMORPG designers have almost to the one decided that while soloing is an important playstyle that should be supported, grouping should always be preferred. Read the blogs of MMORPG developers, read the scholarly articles. It's all there.
However, I've seen a lot of people both here and in-game who play CoX for the exact reason that, in the past, it has offered both standard, Team-based MMO fare and also made it so that soloists can still plod along, doing there thing and having their fun too.
For them to stop doing something they have previously done well, re:Enabling both team and solo players with relative equality, is both a bad thing for players and a bad thing for themselves, because people who might previously have played the game with solo friendly options may be put off by hearing people say "All the new stuff they are making is team-only" or, the more likely one given internet rumour-milling, "Their copying (Other Game) and only putting in end-game raid content now."
That is what I object to. -
Quote:Except I haven't. I said "I would be damn surprised if they didn't stick to 'One Notice a Week'" otherwise, why would they have made it that way in the first place?Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
You've already spoken on the devs' intentions in thsi thread, why shouldn't they?
That is looking at what they have already done and assuming that they will not suddenly overturn that the very next issue for no discernable reason.
Geko is saying 'Won't and shouldn't'.
Theres quite a large difference there. And it was also on an entirely different tangent to the point you are arguing. -
Quote:Oh really?Originally Posted by EvilGeko
There is no personal vendetta. There is folks trying to get people to look past their tortured sense of entitlement to see that the developers shouldn't and won't give people who refuse to consume the content they provide a pass.
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Quote:No, not really.Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
This is (at least) the third time this thread you have either ignored half of a post to make your point, or deliberately twisted something to try to make a point.
Please state where I said MMO meant only team content was acceptable. Having some content require teaming doesn't suddenly mean that you can't solo. It only means that you can't solo that content.
I'll do it step by step here;
Quote:Originally Posted by Ardrea
What soloers got here, so far, is recognition they have a legitimate concern. Now, we're working out the proper and just redress. Of course the process will take a while.
Saying that because the game is an MMO means that there has to be teaming gates on progression is a non-starter -- that's a design decision, not a law of nature.
Bolded for emphasis.Quote:Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
A design decision made when it was decided the game was to be a MMO instead of a MO or some other type of game, true.
Now, granted, the requirements for this conversion will probably get tweaked before it's finalized, but the fact is this is a secondary way to get stuff added in for the people who just refuse to do it the 'normal' way, and it shouldn't be as easy or as quick. As mentioned earlier in the thread, if it wasn't noticably slower than doing it the normal way you'd end up with people who got pieces from TFs and also converted shards to rare components, which runs the risk of screwing up progression for them as well.
I've already addressed the 'One Notice Per Week' point, which is (or at least should be) very, very easy to counter with the limitation mechanics already in game.
I ONLY quoted the MMO comment in my post because that was the part I was specifically addressing.
It is a complete fiction that the 'Normal Way' is teamed content. It is purely viewed as such because that is the way the majority of the industry and MMO players see it as such. And just because the majority see it what way does not make it a truth.
To reiterate; I'm not saying that the solo avaiable method of getting Notices should be faster. I'm saying that;
1) It needn't be quite such a huge penalty as it is. Let's be honest here, for those who can and want to do so, running one WST a week for a notice is NOT hard. It's just an arbitrary time limit on progress.
2) Using already available mechanics should prevent abuse/breaking of the system by leaving Notices at one a week, if that is the arbitrary barrier the Devs want to create.
All clear now? -
Quote:I'm pretty damn sure you won't be able to magically get more than one Notice a Week when/before this hits live.Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Notices from the Weekly Task Force are gated, once per week. Notices from that conversion recipe don't seem to be (it's not mentioned in the recipe at least).
I fail to see how, even if the above were not true for some reason, it would be hard to expand the gating from the WST to the conversion method as well, so that both of them would trigger the 'Once Per Week' gate. -
Quote:Bollocks. Nowhere, in ANY definition, does it say that MMOs only have Team content, no matter the circumstances. That is 100% a design decision. It's just that the majority of the industry seems to conform to it like some sort of Holy Writ.Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
A design decision made when it was decided the game was to be a MMO instead of a MO or some other type of game, true.
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Quote:It's completely hand waveable if Notices are gated at ONE per week. No matter the source. I'm pretty sure that isn't some sort of coding Holy Grail would consume a silly ammount of resources to implement.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The people who team could easily earn one NotW from the WST, and a second one from shards, and end up earning them twice as fast as the devs originally designed the notices to be earnable at. That's not a hand-waveable concern.
40 shards is a lot for a low activity soloer. Its trivial for someone who teams a lot to earn in a week. The problem is that at the moment there is no actual "solo path" there is a path that doesn't require teaming. Its a path everyone can theoretically use, and in fact teamed players are always on automatically, on top of whatever else they might be doing.
It actually is not as easy as it looks to get this right.
If Week Cycle; Notice Reward = 1 then; Disable Notice Conversion and Notice Reward Option until Next Week Cycle.
Etc. -
Quote:Except, from the VERY start, the Devs made it perfectly clear that they wanted everyone to be able to partake of the Incarnate stuff. This myth that 'Teaming only' was stated is some sort of Chinese whisper that has got mutated into fact.Originally Posted by Lothic
The Devs basically bent-over-backwards to offer a compromise that would meet the soloers part-way without disrupting the core plans for their end game system. I'm just saying based on my experience living though the Isolator saga that I pretty much expected that any "concession" the soloers got from this was going to be something they still wouldn't be overjoyed about.
And 'bent-over-backwards' is a seriously gross exaggeration. Tweaking a few numbers to add a conversion option to the already created crafting window for the Alpha is NOT bending over backwards. If they had designed and entirely new series of solo-only tip missions that provided the Notices then that WOULD have been bending over backwards.
Honestly, what is this whole personal vendetta people have against those who happen to want to solo or those who are simply limited in hours by RL? It's really quite pathetic. -
Quote:This is Alpha to all units; calling off the raid. The subject is secured. Tell 'Mother' she has a new play-thing.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
My plans for the weekend Coh-wise have been ruined by the devs forcing me to take part in the BAF Trial sneak peek - I was going to run a few more WSTs, but it looks like I'll be spending the gaming part of the weekend locked in the BAF hospital.
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Quote:Now yer talkin', 'oomie!Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I already have a pretty decent desktop (non mac
) at home...although since the boys are now getting to an age where they've started playing computer games, it's an excuse to "hand down" my old one to them and build another one...
/muuuuahahahahaha
Make it red. Red wuns go fasta!
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Rommy's stun has always been a tad glitchy. I was getting clocked by that on and off even before I19.5, so thats nothing new. Since Im behind the wall anyway and outta danger, I tend to just lean there until its over and then get back to mauling him
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I don't think the OP screenshots Notice conversion is TOO unreasonable...
Except for the Inf cost. Despite the supposed ease of market use these days, which doesn't always pan out in practice I fidn, 100mil is NOT a small number by anyones rec-
Ok, 100mil is NOT a small number for those for whom this is aimed at, usually.
Even cutting out the Inf cost, or at least a large chunk of it, it would still be faster for those who team to simply do WST, while not heavily penalising those who solo or get to team less often.
Heck, make it just 40 shards. Thats still a large time investment, especially jsut for one Rare. Given you need 4 notices for the Very Rare, thats still 160 shards needed just for the notices. I don't think anyone could call that 'faster than the WST'
Oh, and make the conversion like the VG merits for Gr'ai Matter; can only be done once a week.
Voila; equality and balance restored. Is that really that hard? -
Quote:Wisdom from the Arcana once more.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There should probably be a slightly more moderate path in the middle.
I'm not going to repeat my position on that score, since you know what that is (and I yours). Regardless of the fact that it was inevitable that "any path is better than none" would turn into "what lunatic designed this path" its probably objectively safe to say that exactly as I warned would happen the quick and dirty solo path would have to be scaled initially too high, just because of the rule that its easier to scale down than ramp up. The best thing to do is probably to let the inevitable venting occur because it is inevitable, while the system's balance is analyzed more carefully.
Just because people got what they asked for, doesn't mean they got what they deserve. Reward systems should be arbitrated, as Ross says in A Few Good Men, without passion or prejudice.
I remember the 'scaling down instead of up' thing being talked about one Beta, as well.
Doesn't stop my eyebrows doing a little jig at the current implimentation though
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Your mind is ours, fleshling! Welcome to the Asylum! Kyahahahaha!
You hereby have orders to whip the art team harder and more frequently! Make those monkeys work!
Except David. David is God. You do not question David. That is all.
Zwilinger Status: One of Us
Absorption; Mental Network: Complete
One of Us
One of Us -
Quote:Cost less and less hassle overall.Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
I can't believe people still use DO's and SO's. I just craft Generic IO's as I need them, they never expire, so you never truely "lose" a bonus, make a better one later.
Just my 2 cents
I say that, though...scrolling through bloated menus and having to right click to double check your buying the right bamboozle Mcguffin (I hate some of the names, even as an RPer) to slot, not something that looks the exact same but is actually a jump SO not a Hold SO.... -
Quote:Are you listening to the feedback people are giving on it, though?Originally Posted by War Witch
[LIST][*]Watching the excitement that players are expressing about the Animal Pack (I know, get it out already!)
- See? We heard you!
Such as non-snarly heads, better scalers for the heads (huge model, espec.) and better scaled feet (current and 'Big' options prefered)
However, yes, it is good.
So release it already! D= -
Quote:This, really. Some of my characters are getting powers 'above and beyond'. Some are just developing counter measures to those with them.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This question is about as arbitrary as asking whether a character "deserves" to reach level 47, or whether a character "deserves" to have a travel power. It's all part of game progression. You progress as far as you feel makes sense.