Zen_Concern

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slide everything else down a level and make creative level 32 powers for them that are better in line with the other level 32 powers.


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Perhaps something with resistance against Psi? I still like the idea of making a click like Unstoppable that has the same radius as say a controllers Artic Air and provides -30% damage modifier to everything in its effect around the Ice tanker except for say Fire. But everything else would have reduced damage rather than say giving the Ice Tank straight res.

Heck you could to the same for Fire but instead of it being a -dam debuff make it a -acc debuff. You could say that the tanker burns the area around him causeing ash to fill the area around him obscuring enemy vision around him. That would give Fire tankers and Ice Tanks something Unique. It wouldn't have the end regen of Unstoppable but it would be more of a team benefit than just a tanker benefit allowing the tank to do more for the team.

I do believe that there should be a penalty to use this power along the lines of say Unstoppable or MoG. There has to be a negative other than just a long recharge timer.

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Once, twice, three times the thank yous.

For a place. For the acc changes. And for the shout out to me.

The Acc changes are nice... but they're only a start, as they also leave some issues still in place that I'd like to see addressed (specifically regarding accuracy) - each of which are strongly exacerbated by the changes on test:

1) Swarms (both regular and Devouring Swarms) need either a lower Accuracy, a lower rate of attack, or quite possibly both. They're a pet/underling. And yet, because of Taunt Aura's and Punchvoke they will stick on a Tanker like glue, and not let up in a most unrelenting fashion. They need to be reigned in big time.

This is a huge issue for DEF only since they have no way of naturally toning down the damage leaving either Tough or Health as the only ways out. This is more an issue for younger Ice Tankers. Chilling Embrace's Slow doesn't much cut into their attack rate, but its what attracts them, and yet you can't exactly turn it off, since you need it on to help protect you from other things around you.

2) Auto-hit aura's on AVs have got to go (e.g., the Envoy of Shadows). Without anything sitting behind DEF, these powers basically negate any defenses for an Ice Tanker leaving them soft and squishy. Again the only real way to help with them is Health.

3) Mobs that can buff each other's Accuracy or debuff DEF seem to have strong abilities in this area. Devouring Earth Quartz Beacons are a great example, as they seem to impart at least +100% Accuracy to other DE. I did notice that the length of time that Nemesis Vengeance lasts seems to be shorter on Test server right now, which is a big boon here. More changes like this need to come.

4) Base PvP Accuracy is 75%. This means that from the get-go an Ice Tankers Defenses are nullified come I5. Not to mention that 1 Accuracy Enhancer will cap that Accuracy for a non-AoE power. Weapon draw sets get +5% Accuracy. The prevalence of BuildUp, Aim, Focused Accuracy, etc. A DEF based melee set is utterly crippled in PvP. It'd be nice to know if this is going to be addressed somehow.

*****

Now I'd like to dive to other Ice Tanker issues. Many of which were covered in my PM to you, but I'd like to see them answered publically.

For starters... currently on the Test Server Ice Tankers look like this (base values):

Frozen Armor: 15% DEF Smash/Lethal, 30% RES Cold, 10% RES Fire
Wet Ice: negligible DEF, 30% RES Cold
Glacial Armor: 15% DEF Energy/Negative, 30% RES Cold
Energy Absorption: negligible DEF
Permafrost: 20% RES Cold, 10% RES Fire
Hoarfrost: 20% RES Toxic

Max slotted for DEF/RES as appropriate that leaves us at:

33% DEF Smash/Lethal
33% DEF Energy/Negative
134% RES Cold (90% RES Cold w/out Permafrost)
32% RES Fire (10% RES Fire w/out Permafrost)
20% RES Toxic (due to slotting concerns Hoarfrost doesn't get slotted for RES by 99% of people who have it)

So based on this I have a number of questions:

0) Why were Ice Tankers, who were clearly on the bottom of the Tanker barrel to begin with, having been on par with Invuln Scrappers defensively, hit so hard for this Issue?

1) Was the Slow Resistance fixed on Wet Ice? The patch note only mentions fixing it for Energy Absorption, and yet on live Wet Ice has the same bug.

2) Why is Wet Ice no longer offering a measurable amount of DEF? Is this intentional? If not, what can we expect here in the future in the way of DEF?

3) Question (2) but sub "Wet Ice" with "Energy Absorption"?

4) Is this the face of Ice Tankers going forward defensively? You've put us into a range defensively where we're only maginally better than an SR Scrapper (our base DEFs are slightly higher, but their DEF is total coverage, whereas ours is not). And when they pop Elude they end up with a much higher DEF than our totals.

This means our defenses are down in the low end of Scrapper range for I5, and yet we are not being subsequently provided with a compensation for this - Scrappers get their damage, what do we get as Ice Tankers?

5) Can you please! please! please! do something with Permafrost? It just sits there, and because its highly redundant with the RES in our other Armors it ends up not being taken by a large majority of Ice Tankers.

There are two things I could see you doing here:

a) Remove Permafrost completely, then either replace it with something new and exciting, and attractive, OR slide the powers that come after it down one tier (Icicles, Glacial Armor, Energy Absorption, and Hibernate). This would make room for a more exiting and melee oriented power at level 32 (more on this below).

b) Make Permafrost more attractive. Add Toxic RES to it (in addition to what's on Hoarfrost). Maybe throw in some Smashing/Lethal RES so we don't have to pool dive for Tough (a situation that the Test Server changes don't make any less necessary). How about Psi Resistance (the mind is as densly cold as the body).

6) If we are to have such a strong weakness to Fire, why must Ice Tankers also be weak towards Psi? And please don't answer this with more than "Psi is the Tanker weakness", because we both know that Stone Tanks get Psi defenses. Also please don't try to tell me that Chilling Embrace covers this, we both know Psi attacks are all ranged, and CE is a melee range effect on foes.

7) Can Chilling Embrace please be changed to not take level into account when affecting higher (or lower) level foes? It just falls off too rapidly to be as useful as its supposed to be. Even on a heroic mission with other teammates you can see mobs as high as +2, and that 25% drops down to 20% by that point, so it ends up not being as "equivalent" to RES as it should be.

8) If Chilling Embrace is really intended as a RES substitute (which is something I've always felt it was supposed to be), then can it please get a larger AoE for Tankers, to potentially affect more at range. Right now since it only affects melee range, its offers no protection at range at all.

9) The Hibernate lunch list:

a) Can it please not turn off any powers.

b) Can we please be able to turn on powers while using it.

c) In the advent that you choose to leave it the level 32 power, can you make it more melee friendly? Perhaps a Taunt Radius? an AoE "Bitter Frost" that causes a slow like Chilling Embrace? Or maybe just let Chilling Embrace work while its active?

d) Its nice that it heals, but there's no way to make that heal avaialble often enough to be of great use. The best recharge you can eck out of it is 16s and that requires perma-Hasten and 6 recharge enhancements. As most Ice Tanker deaths occur in the span of 5-10 seconds, that recharge time will never be fast enough. It basically has to be useful all the time more or less.

10) Cut the End cost of Icicles by at least half. The 1.5 EPS that it is on live is just way too high.

11) Why doesn't Glacial Armor (E/N DEF) protect vs Rikti Swords (S/E damage)? (please say bug!!!)

12) Despite all the Accuracy changes listed above, this does not at all address the fact that attacks performed by AVs and Monsters are designed to kill characters with capped or very high RES. There are some AVs who have attacks that can one shot a full green health bar of Hoarfrosted health. This has to go. You need to either reign in the attacks of AVs and Monsters to reasonable levels, or you need to provide a means whereby DEF based builds (Ice Tanks and SR Scrappers) do not get one-shot killed. Melee classes have defense, but vs large attacks DEF withouth RES is quite meaningless. And there's nothing a healer or anyone else on your team can do to alleviate this - except perhaps some RES buffs from an SB or Dark Defender, but to say we have to get those all the time is ludicrous. A real solution needs to be provided.

*****

In short, I mostly just want to know what we can expect in the way of actually being made to look like Tankers again? Because right now, on test, we don't look like much of anything anyone would ever want to play or play with.

Thank you for your time.

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I am going to quote this because it is that important. After hearing the Dev response I am getting closer to thinking about a mass PM campaign for Ice Tank recognition. If the Devs have recognized problems with Ice Tanks, then it would be nice to hear that. If they think we are crying for no reason then we would love to hear how they play their Ice Tanks and how much fun they have with them.

Wow, so in an attempt to make Ice a little better you give the resistance sets even more damage mitigation makeing Ice still weaker in comparison?

Uhm, are you going to be nerfing resistance based sets more or is this not the only thing you are doing for Ice Tanks?

Defiance is an interesting ability.

With my own experience the only time I could actually actually, stay in the defiance levels for any length of time was in the 1-10 levels.

Playing with my level 20+ I found that defiance was either never used or that when it was activated I was already running or had already killed the mobs and the damage was catching up to me with defiance trailing behind.

I can't stress how much easier it makes the lower levels, literally allowing us to go through missions and one shot mobs with the second power in our primaries. The sonic set seems to make this even more of an issue.

As others have noted it seems as though it takes awhile for your health bar to register that your health is dropping. While some find this hurtfull I found that it gave me plenty of time to hit a respite. It does not however really let you use Defiance because you are constantly worried that the amount of hits you just took will kill you.

Defiance kicking in when you are so low on health is also an issue. This is a power that few blasters are going to see unless they are about to die. It really needs to start going up the moment a blaster starts losing health gradually, then ramp up sharply at the end.

Waiting to start adding damage until the blaster is at 40 is pointless with blasters who are familiar with soloing and find themselves safe in teams currently. The kinds of playstyles that successfull blasters use tend to keep them from losing a significant amount of HP. I am not sure how to stress this point enough. Waiting till 40% to start adding a damage bonus is not any help at all in the later levels.

A scrappers criticals are far more usefull than the current blaster defiance power when it comes to adding damage. With the increase in scrapper damage, criticals become even greater. Defiance, still seems like too little and far too late.

It would be far better for blasters if they got Mez Protection upon being damaged to 40% that slowly ramped up. Blasters need to move, if they can't then they may as well be dead.

Great! Now when does defiance get explained?

Oh, and was Havoc Punch nerfed in PvE or not. After several PMs we still have conflicting answers!

Let me just expand a bit on what StaticJolt said about immobilizes.

Although a single application of an immobilize will not root a boss, it will snare him (make him move at minimum speed) and this will allow you to move out of melee range. Most of the bosses in the game have strong melee attacks with a few in the late game having strong ranged attacks. While you can't do much against the ranged bosses in the late game with an immobilize (unless you root them then run around a corner and use rain or ignite) you can keep the melee bosses from hammering you or running up to you easily after one of their ranged attacks knocks you down.

Have fun!

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scrapps are frotline fighters, and blaster stay on there sofa chair throwing power until the run away warning.You got to admitt that most of the time your safe and sound( I know that your feel not contributing to the group)

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If anything makes anyone look stupid, it is this statement.

If we were safe and sound, why in the world would blasters be racking up debt faster than any other primary? If we were safe and sound, why do mobs sometimes decide to one shot blasters on sight even though the scrapper has engaged them? If we were so safe and sound why in the world do you think so many people say that blasters are the most challenging AT to play?

The only way you can be safe and sound is if you are around the corner from the mobs and not doing a bloody thing except breathing. While you get xp this way, your group contribution is less than stellar.

On the other hand, my scrapper is in so much danger that I can get off the sofa, head over to the fridge and microwave a burrito, eat it, then come back and finish off the mob. The danger obviously warrents having a higher damage cap. Brilliant, its so obvious to me now. Why didn't I see how much danger scrappers were in while they were herding their own mobs so they could demolish them in a trashcan. Well, I guess it takes a certain kind of perception that I don't have, I am just stuck with reality I guess. Maybe someday I will be able to afford the rose colored glasses that other people see through.

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This is what I would like to see happen to blasters.

1. Impliment PvP damage resist bypass in PvE.

2. Increase the range of all primary powers to be greater than the Diameter of Foot Stomp. Greater.

3. Take all PbAoE status effects and toggles in Blaster Secondaries and make them summonable drops or target toggles. Other than cloaking device of course.

4. Make all current melee attacks have a range of 20 feet, either by changing the animations or just letting them have the range. Increase the damage on Melee AoE attack powers again.

5. (stolen idea) Give each single target attack a -10% res that lasts 5 seconds. This not only helps boost the blasters damage a minute amount but also allows the blaster to help a team. Thus encouraging teaming.

6. Swap the damage caps of blasters and scrappers.

7. Remove the rooting effect from blaster attacks.

8. Faster activation times on powers for blasters.

9. Making level 32 nukes into more useable AoE powers like Head Splitter or Full-Auto and less situational all end consuming powers.

Just my thoughts on where I would like blasters to go.

[/ QUOTE ] Okay heres when stupiditty shows his face,( swaping dmg caps) that just plain stupid I admmit blaster dmg dmg cap is lower than scrapps but theres a good reason why, scrapps are frotline fighters, and blaster stay on there sofa chair throwing power until the run away warning.You got to admitt that most of the time your safe and sound( I know that your feel not contributing to the group) but in my experience I find blaster can be more helpful if they last longer and the devs just make there attacks a little stronger( not swaping dmg cap beacuse thats kinda outrageous especially with scrapps that are losing there defenses and some are just broken) in the end as a scrapp and tank I still approved of the extra dmg upgrade and a little more defense( not defense cap of scrapps totally( universal meaning of defense BTW))

Of course Im always willing to join with any blaster no matter there build( eng not against it but a little problematic for me) good luck getting a better defenses and attack power(no swaping!)

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You quoted the entire thing just to complain about the damage caps being swapped? If you play a scrapper it shouldn't make any difference to you. In the scrapper VS. Blaster thread it was made very clear by several scrappers that they never see their cap so I don't see why you would complain about it.

It is amusing to see a scrapper saying that they deserve the 500% cap though. Especially when scrappers were given defenses so that they could be frontline fighters. Now if scrappers didn't have defenses, then I could see a higher damage cap. Useing the logic that being a frontline fighter is the basis for deserving a 500% damage cap tanks should also have a 500% damage cap, since they are also "frontline" fighters.

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Okay heres when stupiditty shows his face

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If you want to say that my ideas are stupid then please back up your statement with something intelligent.

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A true fact stated by some of the other post our best defense is a offensive one.... if if there are other tactics like divide and conquer, trapped in the spider's web and a few more are in the arsenal of the blasters at any time it doesn't take slot nor power slot: meaning that the blaster greatest asset as well as the controller is there mind we to call in tactics and have patience is like you were given a sniper rifle and you had 2 options ( wait patiently for the right moment or shoot everytime you just have him close to ya and hoping to blow his brains out). I see much more potential in the blaster than just shooting and killing, think plan stalk and pounce on your enemy with them knowing( terain like buildings are the best ya know)with that said its true scrapps are better in sytanding a fight sure I admitt that and as well as tank at tanking( the name saids it all people) we need our mezz protection and our resistance but that doesn't make blaster useless its more like a controller just with particle cannon and less crowd control for the insane dmg....( I bet your saying Im talking crap right? be honest with me).

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I am not sure if you are replying to me. If you are, read my guide down at the bottom in my signature.

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Actualy while I don't like to be in melee range with my blaster, its not a problem to me. What bugs me a bit is how its viewed as being stronger then the primary.

You... ok I... would figure if one was to make a total damage class, damage done by both primary and secondary would both clock as great... not good/awesome.

Hey, you gave me an idea though.

Use AOE strong primary, Energy Secondary.

Primary knocks out the minions and lts of enemy groups, Secondary to take down the bosses. Just need to avoid the one shot KO...

Hmm... time for some planning...

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Congratulations. You are now on your way to becoming a more balanced blaster. The melee was there to take down hard targets fast. Except for Thunderstrike. I don't know what they thought that power was supposed to do besides get used to demoralize a minion every once in awhile.

I was referring to Aracades dislike of melee in the blaster secondary and Aracades dislike of the proportional damage.

Nice summation though.

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I always view .....

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Yes, well Statesman did say that it was a matter of perception so no surprise there.

Honestly, if they just implimented the changes I suggested at the begining of this thread the AT would be much more inline with scraps and tanks. It would be on par with defenders as well in the 40s. That is assuming that tanks and scraps are brought down a peg.

No blaster set has 5 or six melee attacks. Although, if there was one that had 5 hard hitting melee attacks that would be something to behold.

Airman_America, the reason I get little debt is because I have those melee attacks. It allows me to continue a solid hitting attack chain without resorting to AoE (the real agro getter) until I want to. Thus, even though I am pumping out damage like a mad man, I don't get more agro than I can handle and I can help finish off groups for the team.

If I didn't use melee attacks then I would be like most other blasters that don't have them and are not /dev, debt magnets.

The blasters I play that don't get debt, don't get xp as fast as my other characters.

Honestly, I don't play my blasters in a fashion that gets debt so I am not sure how others play. Maybe your experience is different.

The Elec/Elec blaster makes the ultimate blapper. I am still iffy on the blaster part.

Well, they were argueing about soloing anyway. I just felt that it was starting to stray the conversation away from the main point of the thread. Which was: What is the blaster role in teams?

A heroic level mission no longer contains a Boss level mob.

That kinda ends that debate. Moving along now.

It is kinda funny but I was doing a hollows mission with 2 controllers, 2 fire tanks, 2 scrappers , an empathy defender and myself a lowly Ice/Elec blaster.

It seemed as though the only person who could see the bosses was my little blaster. Even the controllers wouldn't bother holding the bosses except when they were the only thing left. At one point one of the team sent me a private tell asking me what I was killing because it was taking so long to kill the minions. I then asked him how many of the last 6 bosses he had killed. When he responded with "What Bosses?" I just ignored him from then on.

Seriously I don't get some of these new players. I think the game is too easy for some classes, extremely easy when I get statements like this from scrappers only in their teens.

Blasters stop having a role, when they stop feeling like Heroes.

For some people that never happens, for others it happens at level 12, and still others lose it after level 35 or 40.

They should feel like a hero from 1 to 50 or this game needs to change its name. This really goes for every class.

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great post overall, however there is just one thing that needs to be said. All over the boards there seems to be a misconception of melee powers. I'll make this short. You do NOT need melee powers when baddies are in melee range. That's like saying I have to put my pistol down when the person I want to shot is close enough to kick me. It's called point blank range people, and I think we should get an acc and dmg bonus for using ranged powers close up. Well that's my rant for the day.

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It is not a misconception but merely useing the tools at hand. When ranged damage gets as good as melee damage then I will go with an all range character. Until that time, if I worry about a mob in melee I will use my melee attack to drop it or knock it back so that my ranged attack can drop it.

If you want to do the most damage to the mob in melee that you can then you NEED melee from your secondary. If you don't care about doing the most damage to the mob then you don't need melee. There is no misconception of melee powers except by the people that refuse to take them in my opinion.

I read this in another tip and decided to expand on it as it is a really good tip.

Talking with your teammates in groups is a very usefull skill to use as a blaster.

Typically a tank or scrapper is trying to lead the team because they are the first into battle. If at all possibly, you want to lead the group. Forming the group to begin with is a great way to make sure you are in the lead.

Why is being in the lead important? The number one thing that kills blasters is when a fight happens in a situation that he does not controll all the factors. Once the blaster steps out of the Heart of the Battle, their life is in the hands of the battle.

When soloing the blaster can pick and choose how he is going to attack mobs. In teams if you are not the leader you can make suggestions but often teams will ignore you if they are used to playing a different way. People rarely want to change their playstyle to something un familiar. Scrappers especially like to prove how scrapperly they are. I have noticed that female players tend to take advice and tactics into consideration more than male players.

To sum all of this up.

It's good to be the king.

Something else to consider is Power Push or Power Thrust and Trip Mine. I prefer Power Push to knock back bosses into a death field. You can then take out minions at your liesure.

You will have to experiment with which villains are vulnerable to knockback and practice a few times on small mobs to get the distance of the knockback down. Some bosses just get knocked down.

Let me start off with one of the most obvious tactics in the book.

Pulling. This is an art that is usefull in teams and solo. Many times you will be tempted to lead an attack with snipe because of its range and its damage. This tactic is viable in the outdoors where you have an open area and plenty of range.

Inside building however you run into a range problem. Typically the mobs will have range on you and since you are stuck in a snipe position and you had to maintain LoS you get shot. Alot usually. Snipes because of their damage do draw alot of agro.

It is in practice easier to pull single mobs or fewer mobs with a low damage attack. The other advantage of useing a low damage attack is that you don't have to maintain LoS. So you can perform this maneuver while jumping behind cover of a wall or corner.

Why pull at all?

You will eventually find yourself in a situation where the pick-up group you are with has run into a scenario where they cannot charge in without alot of people dying. That is a good time to suggest to the group that they should start pulling. The other thing you may want to do is actually pull mobs into a trap.

Many times a tank will herd mobs around a corner to pull them where the group is waiting to unload. Well if no Tank is available you can do the same thing with your blaster. You also get the option of trying to pull just one mob back to your trap and thining the herd where a tank usually ends up with everything whether he wants them or not.

Pulling also allows you to eliminate troublesome mobs like Sappers and their ilk. Not to mention it is nice to get engineers away from their turrets and kill them by themselves then take on the turret by itself.

Devide and conquer is the strategy behind pulling. Range is a strength that you can use to devide and conquer the enemy and I suggest all blasters try to do so.

PS: This has also been found to work in PvP as well. You can hit a scrapper with a weak attack and lure him away from his group into a trap set up by yourself and unload on him with your stronger attacks while his group is not around to help him. Devide and conquer.