anarchicgorilla

I found this little combo to be more devastating (why ET 2x when you can AS 2 xs):

BU
AS
ET
EP
BS
EP
Placate
AS

Every attack here is buffed by BU in this chain: damage at lvl 50 with 3 SO’s in a BU period you put out 3,055 pts of damage… Not to bad for a first strike where you are targetable for 3.64 seconds.

With only the 60ish endx reduction you use up 40.6 endurance doing so, in a total of 12.31 seconds or 3.3 endurance per second. Having the endurance with stamina that was listed you gain back 2.9 endurance every second before defensive slots. With hide, SR’s 3 defense, tough, weave, maneuver, tactics, and concealment (yep 9 expensive toggles to give worst case) we are looking at using 1.75 endurance per second from toggles if each has a endx reduction around 68%. Here we Use 5.05 endx per second and gain back 2.9 endurance per second for 2.15 endurance per second used after all is said and done. This alone goes over 40 seconds non-stop… add in travel time and things like that (and even a more realistic toggle selection) and you are not going to going to face much endx problems at all.

For survivability you can put out 829 damage per second that you can be attacked in a solo situation (which this chain will likely make it the case even vs 3 mobs. (I not only look at DpS and such for survivability... but Damage per time you are attackable). But I am sure Arcanaville and others will say being able to put out that much damage, while only being able to be attacked for that short of a period of time really does not give that much recharge any advantage. Then again they mainly play and advocate for defense sets... I really wish they would have put this -rchg in the resist sets, or even in health so it effected maily regeneration... been funny to see how "balanced" it would be then for such posters.

Numina's Convalescence & Miracle give 25% recovery together (an unslotted stamina). They both are “unique” so only one. 1 extra slot in health gets them both in your build.

Crushing impact gives 3 endurance IO options for your attacks; and you get your - recharge when 5 slotted so something you’re likely going to take. Taking the endx IO’s you get 61.75% endurance in each attack… add a Dmg/End - HO/Sho and that’s 95% endurance in each attack with capped damage and high accuracy. So the attacks are taken care of to be cheap on their own, likely without a sho/ho.

These are also just your attacks and putting 1 extra slot in health.

Here we got 95% endx in each attack. And we have 25% recovery without stamina. Without changing up a normal build any cept maybe that slot in health.

Here I change no slotting in what I have in my toons already… and get 95% endx in each attack with a + 3 slotted stamina and another + 25% recovery… and then whatever else I do with other powers which there are other recovery IO set bonus I could likely get. However, I think even 60% endx in each attack with 74% recovery is going to cover my endx... especially when my toggles are having endurance IO's in them too.

I am not so certain about that with all the ways to get + endx recovery in IO's and sets. This combined with IO sets that can give upwords of 50% endx in each power have some min/maxed sets looking very powerful and sustainable.

I talked about about a EM/SR stalker somewhere in another thread. I know it was kicking out well over 200 damage per second and things of that nature.

There are other sets that I have "played around with" and created some very nasty toons. Now if I could create this type of thing equally with every AT and every set... well that would be different because if everyone is overpowered equally... well atleast they are balanced compared to one another. However, IO's and certain things serve to highlight some imbalances that already exist and to an extent that makes it much much worse then better.

The purpose of IO's seemed to be to create balance with underperforming sets and things like that... However, the way they look now only looks to make the "uber vs gimp" spread much much more wider.

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So again I take your little "hoarfrost will not be perma" remark and say... yes it will, just like I said before. So if you want to add in all the "factors" for your rage... well then I will add in all the "factors I mentioned" for hoarfrost also.

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Have fun with that, under whatever color sky you dwell.

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So how will it not be perma again. Why talk about the color of the sky, before you even defend your claim.

Again, how (using all that I listed, and wanting perma) will you not be able to get perma hoarfrost... as is your claim. Or is this another one of your... I cannot answer for what I say so I will go off topic to try to avoid it.

What next a green house analogy to further avoid looking at your own statement?

The stacking bonus is not my point of these last few posts. My point is Arcanaville


But to my statement. It is not a single aspect "on its own" that we start to see clear advantages but the combination of many factors. So you have an Ice/SS... With perma hoarfrost, double stacked rage for long periods; hibernate up every 17 seconds, EA up every 17 seconds. Then you start looking at what you can start to chain. And non-SS might be better... You have EM or other sets getting very good with BU at a 10 on 15 or so off ratio.

It is not a single factor type thing. Just because the recharge comes from your defense set does not mean it fails to apply to your assault set. Again it’s not just ice or SR or a defensive set. Given what we have in the powerpools this is going to be open to many sets and across AT's.


We can also look at things like a regen in perma dull pain.... with instant healing at 50/50 For those who like MoG you can have either MoG or Instant healing up all the time. Power Surge for /Elec at 180 on 90 off. Your going to completly counter the - rcharge in granite, and there is much much more. Again it is not simply a isolated picture... that much recharge applied to full builds and then having them built specifically for it will get very very nasty.

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And to be honest, I don't think you're confused. Everyone else knows what I mean when I refer to perma-rage as a generally accepted term.

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This generally excepted type of "perma" is the exact type of generally perma hoarfrost I was talking about. Again here you go using something and not allowing others too. I even said there was roughly an 8 second gap, which will be less with IO set bonus and be made perma. Actually.... looking at the 47.5 set bonus from MajorDecoy we can say we could get about the same thing for ice and add that to hoarfrost too. You are looking at s 120 seconds hasten on and 9 seconds hasten off (450/3.5) for /ice.

So for hoarfrost. You have 360 / 3.5 = 102 recharge. Which it lasts 120 seconds. And then you have 9 seconds at /2.8. This will allow your shorter period of no 3.5 recharge to happen during a “stacked portion of hoarfrost” thus hoarfrost will be perma.

So when adding in the factors I stated could be added in… Hoarfrost is indeed perma even by your definition.

You are looking at 120 * 3.5 + 9 * 2.8 / 129 = An avg recharge value of 3.45 seconds for hoarfrost. 360 / 3.45 = 104 second recharge… Perma… its even going to get stacked for short periods of 15 or so seconds.


So again I take your little "hoarfrost will not be perma" remark and say... yes it will, just like I said before. So if you want to add in all the "factors" for your rage... well then I will add in all the "factors I mentioned" for hoarfrost also.

There is not *issue* Arcanville made a very precise statement and I qoute:

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If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles."


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My point has nothing to do with rage or it being perma... I consider it perma... it has to do with Arcanavilles defination. Whether-or-not a "gap" happens during a crash does not matter by that defination.

Tight... perhaps if you are looking at a normal build and adding in those additional powers. But what we can do is "skip" some attacks and other things too. With a perma 3.7 in each attack... you can start to do things like chain 3 of your highest DPS attack non-stop without gaps and things of that nature.

Shadow Punch - Smite - Shadow Punch - MG - Shadow Punch - Smite- Shadow Punch - (filler like S.L or ToF etc)


Look at a Claws / SR with a perma 3.7 recharge

FU- Focus - Evis - Focus - repeat This will be with a double stacked FU or 20% base THB and 75% + damage... so pretty much rage for 3 attacks and no crash.

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unless you want to split hairs... thats perma.

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For me, perma is perma. But if its different for you, you might want to let me know what's your threshold for perma in terms of seconds of downtime.

If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles."

But if you think that's perma, without the +0.375 speed buff at all, dull pain with hasten and 3-slot recharge averages about 30 seconds of downtime. Is the difference between perma and not perma somewhere between 30 seconds and 9 seconds?

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Now I am confused. In the past you have spoke of "perma rage" in SS.

Rage 240/1.95 = 123 second recharge... and a 120 second duration. So it is off 3 seconds every 120 seconds or in 240 seconds off by 6 second which right online with hoarfrost. Now going straight by your “If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles." I am truly thrown off by you speaking of perma rage.


And to avoid a "I never said perma rage"

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5. With perma-rage tohit buffs.

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And again my hoarfrost example is all without a single set bonus… By your very own definition of "absolute perma" Hoarfrost is going to end up being closer to your "absolute perma” then the very same rage you have called perma. It funny how you wish to apply these very strict standards for defining... except, of course, in regards to your posts.

edited for you to add that:

Hasten will be about 120 on and 29 seconds off. So for 29 seconds Hoar Frosts recharge drops from 3.025 to 2.325 So we have 270 seconds at 3.025 (90 seconds of rchg) and 90 seconds at 2.325 (39 second of rechg). So it recharges in 129 seconds out of 120 and again this is without any of the other bonus recharge that are there. This is also on the second hoarfrost... So you have Hoarfrost up 240 / 249 seconds. Before any additional recharge that is there. So we are looking at a 9 second down time every 4 minutes (again without a single other recharge that is there in sets)... unless you want to split hairs... thats perma.

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Also: Hasten + 0.375 speed + 3-slot recharge is not perma-hoarfrost. Not since I6, anyway.

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Hoarfrost

1.0 - base
.375 - IO
.70 - hasten
.95 - slots

3.025

Hoar frost 360 recharge 120 up. 360 / 3.025 = 119 recharge

Also we are not adding in another IO set recharge or other factors yet.



Hasten will be about 120 on and 29 seconds off. So for 29 seconds Hoar Frosts recharge drops from 3.025 to 2.325 So we have 270 seconds at 3.025 (90 seconds of rchg) and 90 seconds at 2.325 (39 second of rechg). So it recharges in 129 seconds out of 120 and again this is without any of the other bonus recharge that are there. This is also on the second hoarfrost... So you have Hoarfrost up 240 / 249 seconds. Before any additional recharge that is there. So we are looking at a 9 second down time every 4 minutes (again without a single other recharge that is there in sets)... unless you want to split hairs... thats perma.

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7.5% recharge only stacks to 37.5% which very few set combinations could do and even then that's only a bit more than half of Hasten.

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/SR with hasten

.375: from IO's
0.70: from hasten
1.00: base
0.95: enhancements
0.20: quickness.

Total: 3.255
Time needed for hasten to be perma: 3.75
We also have yet to add in "perma IO set + recharge"

Not an advantage... hardly. You looking at hasten have 20 seconds of down time tops... so 120 on 140 off. Even better apply it to ice/* tank with the same numbers - 20% for quickness. In which you will get perma hoarfrost. Or even here for other sets: maneuver, CJ, Stealth, Weave, grant invis. There is 37.5% on its own. Add that to regen or any set with a dull pain for pretty close to perma dull pain with hasten.

Then you can look at some of these:

With SR:
DM: soul drain close to perma,
SS: Rage close perma double stack (/elec)
BU: 10 on 18 off
Then you start looking at adding that much recharge to attack chains and such.

AR/Archery: semi-nukes up 20 seconds
BU/Aim: 20 on 8 off
Power Boost/boost range: 15 on 20 off

Not quite sure how my pets a WS will get out and stacked at same time w/ perma double stacked mires with some shape shifting.

Force Field trollers are going to be pretty interesting too. Kinetic taking a couple defense powers from pools should also have little trouble having perma hasten and adding that with sipheon speed. Then apply that to trollers again or defender and corruptes then add in nukes.

These bonuses when added and including set recharge and other thingswe have yet to see are going to be close to giving a perma speed boost - the speed and with other IO's the endurance too.


Having a perma speed boost would do alot for many of my AT's especially if I could plan and slot around it.

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Set Bonuses are always active. The special powers from IO Enhancements which grant them are not.

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What about in passive powers? If I slot +20% regeneration in Fast Healing do I get that bonus all the time?

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Passive powers are always on, therefore any enhancements of this type would always give their bonus.

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If I slot +20% regeneration in Dull Pain do I get that bonus only when I click Dull Pain?

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Right. A Set Bonus which gave +Regeneration would *always* be active in Dull Pain, while an Enhancement which grants +Regeneration would only work for a set period of time after Dull Pain was activated.

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What about in passive powers? If I slot +20% regeneration in Fast Healing do I get that bonus all the time?[/
So lets say I put the THB buff that goes into a defense of power (likely ment for a toggle) into a power like parry or divine avalanche.

Know does this power have a "activation time" like 5 minutes? Hmmm DA once ever 5 seconds for 5 minutes = one hell of a stacked THB.

Same applies with Toggles. Can I simply turn on/off say CJ 10 times every 5 minutes for super THB?

If the THB from these powers is based off the "pulse" of the power would this still mean this THB would last 10 seconds in DA allowing us to double or triple stack it?

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While not quite on the topic of your post, your thread title makes this a good spot to talk about this.

Most of the Unique Enhancements offer completely new effects to a power they are slotted into. In the Edict of the Master example, your summon power now effectively gives you a 'click' version of Leadership/Maneuvers that only applies to your pets. That's a pretty good bonus, in my opinion.

Now, let's talk about why it has a duration. Since these are enhancements, the system only knows about them when you use the power they are slotted into. Once used, the effects of those powers hang around until their duration ends. If they are slotted into a toggle, the effects are constant while the toggle is running, but end as soon as the toggle is shut off. So, slotting Numina's Convalescence: Regeneration/Recovery into Rest isn't a great idea (actually, it's no longer possible, but it was a good example to use!)

So, making it a 'short term buff' wasn't an arbitrary decision. It is simply the only way to get the abilities to work in all desired cases.

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Are these durations going to apply to more click IO's that may have been thought to be a passive? If so which IO's will have a passive buff, and which will not? Will there be some color system or something to help us to know?


PS:
Fury is still broken in PvP... when you get a chance would you look at it again please?

BTW... how have you managed to make missions more tactical? The only way I have found is to build a toon (mainly /dev blasters) that find the need to use tactics more necessary.

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That's interesting to me, Arcanaville. I enjoy the fights I get and the feeling I get from defeating EBs without the use of any inspirations or temp powers.

That's not even a possibility with AVs. With ANY build.

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I'm still working on a long term feasibility experiment I don't want to discuss a lot yet, but lets just say that I have a build that is soloing things you wouldn't believe without video proof: no temp powers, no inspirations, no nothing.

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It can be done in game too. I have solo'd AV's with out temp powers.

Fire/Elec brute w/ aid self is very very nasty when min maxed strictly on PvE.

All you need is a few things to beat an AV without the above

1) Damage to beat out regeneration rate and health
2) Sustainable endurance
3) Ability to mitigate the damage

EM,SS,FM / Elec brutes can all do the above on paper.

Why I find FM to be the easist is that the longer animation allow one to skip the need for macros to ensure max chain DPS and the cheaper endx cost single target chain allows one to maintain that very high DPS at a cheaper endurance cost. And with the fix to fury vs AV's you can still maintain 90ish fury thoughout the fight.

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my example was Dark Armor, not Dark Melee, and has nothing to do with dark consumption per se.


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Ok, the example was just to illustrate the point that endurance can be and is used to balance sets.

Do the following statements bear any resemblance to your opinions? I may or may not agree with these statements myself, just trying to further discussion and gain a better idea of what people think.

Dark Consumption from Dark Melee has no counterpart in any Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, or Tanker attack set, and Dark Melee has no particular reason to require higher than normal endurance in order to bring it on par with those other attack sets.

Fiery Aura Consume does have counterparts in other Brute, Stalker, Scrapper, and Tanker sets, and it also requires higher endurance use than many (if not all) other defense sets in order to bring it on par to those other sets.

Fire Manipulation Consume does have counterparts in other Blaster secondaries, but does not require higher endurance use than those other secondaries to bring it on par with those support sets.

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Rephrasing those statements as I would put them:

Dark Melee does not have a specific balance requirement to have significantly more endurance than other scrapper primaries, so the inclusion of dark consumption should be seen as a "nice to have" and not a "critical to balance." Therefore, there is no specific requirement for it to be any stronger or weaker than it currently is, because its inclusion in the set is specifically to be a unique benefit to the set.

Fiery Aura does appear to have issues related to its performance relative to its endurance consumption. Therefore, there is every reason to consider the overall endurance management ability of the set relative to its tanker and brute peers. Under those circumstances, its clear that taken as a whole, Fiery Aura has less endurance management capability than other sets with comparable performance, and less performance than sets with comparable endurance management capability. In some cases, it lags in both areas simultaneously.

Fire Manipulation appears similar to dark melee: its performance relative to its peers is not limited by endurance, and therefore like dark melee the presence of consume appears to be a "nice to have" unique benefit, not a "necessary for balance" component. As a result, just because it shares the same name with Fiery Aura consume, doesn't intrinsicly mean it should be balanced by the same criteria.

The devs *could* buff both FA consume and FM consume. But those buffs would have two different net results. The net result of buffing FA consume would be to equalize the imbalance between FA and other tanker and brute sets. The net result of buffing FM consume would be that /FM blasters would be getting a substantial endurance management tool "for free" as a secondary benefit of taking the FM secondary. It would be an out-of-balance addition similar to the DoT damage of Fire attacks (which are considered "secondary effects" by the devs that are not explicitly balanced for in the same way as base damage when designing the various attack sets).

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When you speak about FM consume for blasters and say looking at other sets in its category the buffs not needed to balance or that it is more of a bonus then to off set endx costs I say incorrect.

FM has 2 very heavy endx toggles (/Elec has 1) so if the balance is in regards to offsetting the heavy endx costs in such a set... well fire would be more worthy then /elec.

Both hot feet and blazing aura are part of FM and to say it does not appear to be limited by endx is bogus. It is only not limited by endx if you specifically skip the powers that drain it... Which by that rationale nothing is limited by endx for you can skip all their powers too. To ague otherwise would to be to somewhat imply blasters (or at least a */FM) are not designed to battle in melee, thus their melee toggles are only bonus, to which I would disagree with too.

Buffing FM consume does not get FM any advatage over other sets, what it does allow is for them to use the powers they do get without having a empty endx bar.

I would consider dark consumption in a different class as it is in a assault and not a defense set. However, if it were to be included... I would say remove the damage or thdb. (i would go with damage)

Burn & Bonfire... if they are not auto hits, then make the damage in consume have whatever type of to hit check and accuracy they have. You could also make the damage in consume something like a 80% chance at 5 ticks (with all 5 adding up to current damage).


I donot see consume over powering fire as of now with any combo. Personally even with this change I still perfer ice.

The best improvement I see is a EM/Fire brute... and even here I still think a EM/Elec does better.

My suggestion for change (given the data) would be to make it mirror the energy absorbtion. (auto hit and rchg included)

That way:
Consume has 15 endx gain + damage
Energy absorb has 15 endx gain + defense
Power sink has 15 endx gain + 10 endx gain
Energy drains has 15 endx gain + 10 endx gain

I did the 15 + 10 to show a point... That each has a base 15.. and a secondary effect that mirrors the set... EA + Elec = endurance bonus... Ice = defense bonus; Fire = damage bonus.

So consume would have the same damage, be an auto hit, and have a 60 recharge, with a 15% endurance gain. Which all seems balanced to me.

TY for the post. To me this leads me to be optimistic that once indeed you do get the data points, there is a possibility we can expect to hear some good news.

Well the comaprasion would not be between say eagle claw which has a 12 rchg and head splitter which has a 14 rchg. Each with a different endx cost. This is not the comparison I am speaking of. An example would be:

Ice blast: 4.56 BI, 8 rchg, 8.528 cost and 1 second animation
compared to
Lightning bolt with the same BI, cost and rchg but double the animation time.

Here we see 2x the animation for in effect the same dmg, rchg, and endurance cost and while this is a single power this compounds when we see this trend through a set like ice being quick animaiton and elec being longer thoughout the set. Would this not be a quality issue aswell? This also applies to rooting as many Archery can tell you a 3 second rooting can be the death of you where a 1 second root can make a world of difference.

From my understanding and some of this is based off of replies from Arcanaville, whom I find very knowledgable about stuff pertaining, animations are not (atleast at this time) factored into balance.

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Another post from the Animation Dept.
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Hey everyone. The changes to toggle power animations and the standardization of what does and doesn’t root you should now be up on live. I just wanted to clear up any confusion about some other changes to click powers that also happened at this time. The only intended changes to rooting were supposed to be for toggle powers at this time. We’re in the process of standardizing click powers to follow their own set of rules, but they’re not going to be slightly different than the rules for toggles.

Right now, our intent is to use these rules for click powers:
1. AOE Heals will not root
2. Self Buffs will not root
3. Self Heals will not root
4. Everything else will.

You may have noticed some click powers that used to root you and now don’t. These powers snuck their way into the wrong build (see what happens when we don’t root them), and most of these will change back in the next build that makes it to live. Consider this an official head’s up.

Again, sorry for the confusion this has caused. We’ll get it all sorted out shortly and we thank you for your patience and understanding.

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Out of curiosity just how far does this new balance idea extend? It is clear that rooting times for powers mentioned above were not standardized for balance, no does it appear animation times were/are. The rooting portion seems to be on the fix boards, atleast for the powers you mentioned. However:

1) Can we expect such a fix to trickle down into the attacks also? For example, if blazing arrow has a 3 second rooting and blaze roots for but 1 second can we expect to see some sort of standard where all attacks root for the same amount of time or root for a standard amount of time based on the damage they do?

2) Is there any thing in on the plate that would suggest the rooting fixes will continue and we will see some sort of animation standard for balance issues? So that a set like elect. which has about 2 second animation times balances with a set like ice which has about 1 second animation times as far as the damage per second (dmg / animation) is concerned. This type of balance ties directly to chain potential and to a certian extent burst potential for sets, so can we exepect to see a fix to balance issues regarding these factors in the future?

The simple math is
2X the damage and to-hit buff and
2X the crash

I.E. 2X the crash not just the downtime but the endurance drain too. I think this is what you are saying.