Znail

Lets see, now that Issue #2 is in, wonder how long util the difficulty uppgrade gets in. There is alot of commotion over the nerfs and changes to some villands, so the noise when the difficulty fix rolls in will be amazing

Tankers shouldnt worry too much. Unless the plan is to make Tanker unable to tank for groups so is it unlikely that a Tanker wont be able to handle alot more then 3 minions while solo.

There is one thing amusing here, as a Tanker I never considered 3 even con minions a fair fight. At level 12 I could easily handle 10+ level +1 minions. So I dont know if its ever accurate with 3 minions for each hero.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should have put it a bit more clear. Statistics can be used to prove anything you want, even that Tankers does more damage then Scrappers. It just depends on how you collect your data.

[/ QUOTE ]

Data collection, experimental design, and analysis are all issues of statistics. You can use *bad* statistics to prove anything you want. *Good* statistics doesn't work that way. There are accepted ways of analysis and design.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that we have no *good* statistics to use here. This would require a decently large same, some 100 or so diffrent Tankers and Scrappers filling the same role in a team. Not even the Devs have access to that.

[ QUOTE ]
Nope just wanted to correct you. Don't care about your arguement.

Number of AoE's are unimportant to me. Quality of AoE's are important to me.

For example I don't see why you even bothered listing 'Utility AoEs'

They do not improve kill rate and they don't help offense. They can 'help' defense but you and I both know Offense is King in this game. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I listed them to show wich ones I didnt include as damage, not for any other reason. Just so that none would think I excluded some power that was actualy usefull for damage. Consider that the post I replied to did include those for some reason.

[ QUOTE ]
Throw Spines and Shockwave are both Cones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am aware of that. If you reread my post you see that I included them due to that they got such a large area. Anyway, why are you complaining about something that makes Scrappers look better? I did this to avoid arguments about them, but I guess its hard to please everyone.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Golly, nearly fell off my chair laughing at that. You DO know that generally, all secondaries are capped at 75% effectiveness of the same primary, right? And that tankers generally slot primary damage-mitigating powers, while scrappers tend to slot primary damage-dealing powers?

Man, I've met biased people trying to defend their over-powered class (relative to another) by pulling fictitious statements and facts out of their a**, but you, sir, take the cake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also aware that Scrapper primaries and Tanker secondaries does not share even a single set. The ones Tanker got is slow and harder hitting relative to Scrappers. This is why the actual single target damage per hit is nearly the same. I think you should do some comparison before you draw hasty conclusions. Maybe take a look at the most damaging melee attack in the game, Energy Transfer.

As for slotting, at higher levels Scrappers will most of the time have more slots in defence as they need more to get less.

Maybe you should consider thinking more and being rude less?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do. The upside for Scrappers realy is the crits against bosses. But if the bonus from this change is larger then the 15% crit chance against a boss, then more then just boss killing will be a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the upside for scrappers isn't just crits--though that's nice. The upside is that they get way more AOE's that do damage. Consider the power sets:

Tankers:

Axe: 2
Energy: 1
Fire: 3
Ice: 1
Stone: 1
Super Strength: 1
War Mace: 2

Average: 1.57

Scrapper:

Broadsword: 3
Claws: 3
Dark Melee: 3
Katana: 3
Martial Arts: 1
Spines: 4

Average: 2.83

Right now, AOE damage is king in this game. In a typical permahastened 5 attack combo, the average scrapper can AOE 57% of the time. The average tanker can AOE 31% of the time, about half as often. Combine this with crits and higher base damage, and tanks don't come anywhere close to scrapper damage output.

You have to look at everything a scrapper can do, not just crits. AOE matters, Znail. In CoH as it currently stands, it matters more than any other factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are counting powers that are very poor for damage purpose like Dark Consumption and Souldrain, those have 2min and 3 min recharge times. Their total damage over time is less then even one Tanker pbae! Alot of the Scrapper AE attacks are also tiny melee cones. Here is a more complete list wich doesnt show nearly the same proportion.

Tankers got 24 AE powers, of those are 15 primarily for damage and 11 of those are PBAE.
Scrappers got 22 AE powers, of those are 16 primarily for damage and 9 of those are PBAE (I counted Throw Spines and Shockwave due to large cone here).


Tankers PBAE damage powers:
Burn
Blazing Aura
Icicles
Mudpots
Whirling Axe
Whirling Hands
Combustion
Fire Sword Circle
Tremor
Foot Stomp
Whirling Mace

Scrappers PBAE damage powers:
Dark Embrace
Whirling Sword
Whirling Sword -Katana (dont know new name offhand)
Spin
Shockwave (included due to large cone)
Spine Burst
Quills
Throw Spines (included due to large cone)
Dragon's Tail

Tankers Cone damage powers:
Pendelum
Breath of Fire
Frost
Crowd Controll

Scrappers Cone damage powers:
Slice
Slice -Katana
Headsplitter
Headsplitter -Katana
Eviscerate
Ripper
Shadow Maul

Tankers mostly utility AE powers.
Consume
Rise of the Phoenix
Chill Embrace
Energy Absorbation
Invincibility
Icepatch
Frozen Aura
Handclap
Fault

Scrappers mostly utility AE powers.
Dark Regeneration
Cloak of Fear
Opressive Gloom
Invincibility
Dark Comsumption
Soul Drain

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night I sidekicked a scrapper on my missions. My attacks are pretty well slotted and are full with SOs. My sidekick scrapper is at the DO level. So even if his attacks were all 6 slotted they would not get the same benefits my attacks do (having at least 3 dmg SOs each).

Even when I had Rage running my sidekick was doing more damage. It got a lot closer but he was still doing much greater damage. I didn't run out of END as quickly but that is just due to the fact that I am running on SOs while he is running on DOs

[/ QUOTE ]

Rage kind of gave you away there. It would help some if its not always the worst Tanker set that is used to compare with. Its somewhat telling that its always the best Scrappers and the worst Tankers used in comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but that is a lame response. The scrapper in question was MA by the way. What would you cosider a valid comparison then?

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Fiery Melee, Energy Melee or Battleaxe? Why does it always have to be Inv/SS? Even MA who before this update is considered the worst Scrapper set is still not that far behind other sets. Its the animation times that is a problem, but you wasnt comparing those after all. 3 SO's gives the same bonus as 6 DO's btw so he could get as much bonus as you with only 6 slots.

[ QUOTE ]
?? What's "hard data" as you understand it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hard data is data that is not random depending on person. Like absolut damage, recharge and end costs. There are hard numbers behind those.


[ QUOTE ]
A tanker being rooted is doing less damage *statistically*. You're confusing "potential damage" with "effective damage" here.

Potential damage can be claculated easily (as in DPS = (Damage of a power)/(Recharge Time in Seconds).

Effective Damage is much harder to nail down, and you *need* statistics to find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A Scrapper will also do less effective damage when doing that. What if you do balance damage in the way you seem to want? What about when a Tanker is not acting as a tank and is free to do damage? What if the Tanker now due to boosts that asume he will not try and do damage is better at the damage role then a Scrapper? This is actualy what would happen as the Statistics mentioned shows such large diffrences.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm having a mjor deja-vu to about 2 months ago?

"Statistics can't prove anything"? Uh - what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should have put it a bit more clear. Statistics can be used to prove anything you want, even that Tankers does more damage then Scrappers. It just depends on how you collect your data. Its nothing 'Hard' about statistics, its as soft and easily adaptable to your own views as it can be.

Even if Statistics was actualy a good way to test things so would a bit larger sample then 2 people or so be needed. It leaves a bit too much to those random factors.

[ QUOTE ]
Last night I sidekicked a scrapper on my missions. My attacks are pretty well slotted and are full with SOs. My sidekick scrapper is at the DO level. So even if his attacks were all 6 slotted they would not get the same benefits my attacks do (having at least 3 dmg SOs each).

Even when I had Rage running my sidekick was doing more damage. It got a lot closer but he was still doing much greater damage. I didn't run out of END as quickly but that is just due to the fact that I am running on SOs while he is running on DOs

[/ QUOTE ]

Rage kind of gave you away there. It would help some if its not always the worst Tanker set that is used to compare with. Its somewhat telling that its always the best Scrappers and the worst Tankers used in comparison.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Parsing damage from reasonably high (mid-30s) tanks and scrappers puts tanker damage significantly power than scrappers (far far below the 75% 'target'). At that time scrappers were, interestingly, running at less than 70% of blaster damage as well. I used to think exactly as you did until I went out and got some hard data.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statistics is not the same as hard data. There are alot of random factors involved. Power choises, slot choises and playstyles. A Tanker who is acting as a groups tank standing immobilized using provoke is going to do alot less damage then a Scrapper running around doing as much damage as he can, even if they actualy did the same damage else. So statistics cant be used to prove much here.

[ QUOTE ]
Lies, damned lies and statistics!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m NOT suggesting that mobs run away from scrappers, just that they not try to melee them unless that’s the only thing they do (like a Freak Smasher). Once the scrapper engages a mob, the mob stands and fights. All others try to move away and fire with their ranged weapons. If the scrapper leaves, they follow but from a distance. When the scrapper stops, they attempt to encircle from their maximum range.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would make being rooted with Unyielding Stance more anoying then it is right now. It would also make it very hard to hit anyone with PBAE as a Scrapper. It would take alot to compensate for those things.

[ QUOTE ]
Znail, that is flat out untrue. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not call it a lie this time, but there is simply no comparison between scrapper and tanker melee attack lines, single target or otherwise, unless you completely ignore 3/4 of the elements involved (damage, recharge, end cost, number of attacks).

[/ QUOTE ]

Recharge doesnt matter unless you have run out of attacks to use against a single boss. Endurance cost doesnt matter either unless you run out of endurance against a single boss. Neither of those conditions happen at higher levels. I have no idea what you mean by 'number of attacks'.

[ QUOTE ]
To speak to those worried about us usurping the role of "boss killer" from the scrappers. Well, it has been said before, that no group should need any specific AT. That means that each AT should be able to in some way sub for 1 or more other ATs. Of course not as effectively, but none-the-less, we will be able to adequetly step into that role now, as can most blasters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tankers can already fill that role more then well enuff. Tankers single target attacks do about as much as Scrappers do. The upside for Scrappers realy is the crits against bosses. But if the bonus from this change is larger then the 15% crit chance against a boss, then more then just boss killing will be a problem.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman, you've been hinting at changes "coming soon" to deal with lack of challenge at the mid to upper levels for quite a while now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right after Expansion 2 goes live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, that sounds good as then we can see the effect this has first as this may make Tankers needed again and lessen the need for additional changes.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its only possible at levels 40+ as else it requires far too much sacrifice in offensive powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Znail, its not true. An invuln Scrapper sacrifices nothing to achieve 90% in lethal/smash, fire/cold and energy/neg energy. In fact it frees up 5 slots TI and 4 slots from elemetal and energy resistance. You can 6 slot up to 10 powers after you slot properly for perma-Unstoppable, RPD, elemental and energy resist.

Yes it does take till lvl 40, but eventually most players will be at level 40 or more. Only the most casual players won't make level 40 in a year. The hardcore players have multiple toons at 40+ already.

So it needs to be fixed. I am just curious what the plan for that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

That still limits it to level 40+ and a Tanker has even more slots to spend on other things. This is a problem with Unstoppable, not with Scrappers.

[ QUOTE ]
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is somewhat of an Illusion that is often repeated as truth. Its only possible at levels 40+ as else it requires far too much sacrifice in offensive powers. Will these changes only work for 40+? Its also limited to the current level of difficulty of villans, and if that is fixed then Tankers would have more use of their defensive advantage. Its also an issue limited to Invulnerability that is the reason that some Scrappers can reach the same caps as Tankers. Its far to easy to reach said caps as a Tanker, wich is why Scrappers can do it as well.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Essentially, each hit (if successful) will give you a short term damage buff. Different powers would have different buffs; but if you could string enough hits together you can "peak" your damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well on that note, would Tankers using this still hit their normal "+400%" damage caps? Because many are already there (depending on the group situation), so a damage buff would ONLY be beneficial if it raised the damage cap they could attain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt worry too much about the caps, its not ment to boost damage that much after all. It wil most likely be around 5% bonus from each attacks that stacks, making it around 25% bonus if continious fighting, a similar bonus to that from Followup wich work similarily.

[ QUOTE ]
2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.

[/ QUOTE ]

This somewhat worries me. It will most likely be minor or else it will be too large for the better tanker sets. One of the larger problems with Tankers are the imbalance between the diffrent sets. But if the idea is to add a bit of fluff similar to the 5% crits of Scrappers, then its not likely to be more then minor.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A well prepared group of 5-8 mows through introductory purples just as easily as it mows through even cons. Anything bigger than that is a brick wall due to the purple patch scaling upwards too sharply.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah - this is somewhat unrelated. The game is too easy at higher levels. Larger groups need to hunt higher level spawns in order to find challenge, and therefore fun.

The missions at levels 30+ contain foes -1,0,+1 to the level of the mission holder (or at least the level he was when he received the mission). Those foes are trivially easy for players at those levels. Thus, they go to street sweeping - because the fun is at fighting foes +5 levels - and consequently they receive A LOT of experience points.

The goal (eventually) is to make the +1,0,-1 level spread as fun at 30th level as it was at 10th level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds promising.

EDIT: It would also make AoE less of a soloing tool if large high level groups are too dangerous to handle. This will go a long way to balance things.

I ment Balanced as in both AE and Single target powers, not as in under or overpowered. I thought I made that clear in my post.

Anyway, you dodged the question why Whirling Axe, Whirling Hands, Tremor and Whirling Mace should be better then Foot Stomp?

I am not only comparing with Fire, there are other PBAE attacks like Whirling Axe, Whirling Hands, Tremor and Whirling Mace. They have similar stats and all make Foot Stomp look bad. Fire SWord Circle does more damage thou and has the same cost and recharge as Foot Stomp.

Fiery Melee does have high damage attacks too, Greater Fire Sword does as much damage as the new Knockout Blow. Incinerate also does more damage then Haymaker. Fiery Melee is actualy pretty balanced with both good AE and single target attacks.

Its not that Foot Stomp does less damage then other Tanker AE attacks, its that the end cost is higher and recharge is longer for no extra benifit.