Now all we need is Toggle Suppression, and the only advantage human forms will have is more survivability.
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I am sure that some would be inclined to argue over this...I have better things to do.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I'm not talking about player skill because that can't be quantified.
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Btw, if I recall correctly, long ago there was a program that you could run that would keep track of things like the amount of damage each person on your team was dishing out etc.
Stat tracker? Hero tracker?
I don't have the time to look it up. I had it at one point. You may want to search for it and use it.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Obviously I'd rather play with you than a human Warshade who didn't know how to play, because A.) I like playing with you, and B.) You would be more effective.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
For the player, once again, I'm speaking from a mathematical perspective, because we can't quantify player skill. Being able to play well is something I thought was an obvious prerequisite to having an awesome character.
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Because of the trees it is as though you can't see the forest.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
There's no way that a mission, enemy group or difficulty setting alteration can favor an end game tri form build over a human form build, if constructed correctly.
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"There's no way...if constructed correctly."
So, the build that is constructed correctly can do all things (missions, enemy groups, difficulty settings) better than every other build?
It boggles the mind!
Please, tell me of this one human form build that is always going to do all things better.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Every enemy group becomes less of a threat with more durability and more crowd control. I don't think exemping has a place in an 'ultimate build' discussion, because playing below the level cap is going below the ultimate level of play.
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It is also true that enemy groups are of no threat when they are dead. For this reason, AIB's attacks are never set to stun.
With reference to the use of the word ultimate...maybe folks are looking at things in a different way...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ultimate
In particular examine...1a, c and d
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You wouldn't, even with the math right in front of you, because you like playing tri form, and you're good at playing tri form. You've already conceded that human form has the best ST damage- We had a lengthy discussion about that here a while back. I've conceded that tri form does more AOE, having played tri form and seen that first hand.
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"So overall Microcosm was right, the human form chain is higher by about 5 dps, but that's not accounting for form shifts and without softcapped defense might mean you need to use stygian circle or dwarf drain which would lower your numbers quite a bit. "
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=277488
Yeah, the thing is this...how much more AOE DPS can a Triform dish out per second?
For some reason, I think it is ALOT more than 5 dps.
Here is another link with some pertinent discussion...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=273855
As I have related before, if there were something that I "valued enough" and I could only do it on a Human Form build then I would make a second.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I would say that especially with the new Knockdown Detonation, human form's AOE is roughly the same amount behind tri form's as the latter's ST is behind the former's.
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I might be wrong; but I doubt it.
Feel free to do the math. Or better yet, shine forth the Microcosm signal.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
For arguments sake, let's say those two cancel each other out. Now, what else can we look at? I would say survivability. A human form build can get a small purple from the softcap to melee, ranged and aoe damage on a perma eclipse, well rounded build. A tri form build is lucky to have 32.5% s/l defense in all forms. In PVE, defense is more valuable than HP, so even in Dwarf form, the tri form Kheld will be less survivable (again, numerically speaking- not taking into account player skill) than the human form build.
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I have read much of what you have written on these boards and I have spoken with you in game. The progression of your thoughts and your builds have varied a great deal.
It's not that I mind you sailing the seas and experiencing the joys of the islands of Tri, Tri curious, Bi, Bi curious, and Human forms. But, it is as though, upon arriving at each new island, you suddenly decide that all other islands were and are inferior in EVERY way.
Perhaps you think you are making progress...
But I say unto you progress is simply a comparative about which we must decide the superlative.
You see, progress by its very name indicates a direction; and the moment we are in the least doubtful about the direction, we become in the same degree doubtful about the progress.
Since we value different things, a great many of your "progressive decisions" appear to be "regressive decisions."
But, feel free to make them. It's your prerogative.
Oh, and remember when you used to advocate 45% S/L on Kheldians. And then you discovered the 32.5% defense, one small inspiration from softcap, thing?
Was it a, "Eureka!" moment?
Because, I'm just going to throw this out there...you know, building for 20% defense means you are just one MEDIUM inspiration away from softcap.
Did that blow your mind?
For a moment allow me to speak from my limited experience.
1. It is easy to purchase Medium inspirations.
2.I destroy large groups of enemies very quickly
3. Medium inspirations often drop from the +3 and +4 enemies I am destroying.
4. I have Vengeance to use when teaming, it is exceedingly rare for me to be the first person to die on my team...
5. Because I have not sought the 45% S/L or even the 32.5% S/L my stats are higher in a number of other areas than those who have.
6. I have more powers (especially offensive) powers at my disposal because I am not enslaved to toggles.
7. I also have more powers at my disposal because I don't stun with AIB.
8. And yet, I have no "survivability issue."
Serene (my PB) is also very powerful and for those who don't know who are reading when I pop a Med purple with either of my Kheldians, or use Vengeance (which they can perma use with a body), I exceed the softcap in S/L and Psi.
At this point let me just say, Kheldians are magnificent and to borrow from Aristotle, the whole is greater than the sum of their parts.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
It also stands to reason, especially with the help of the Hybrid taunt aura and Provoke, that since the human build can survive better, it can tank better too. Granted the Dwarf taunt is stronger than Provoke is, but you and I have already done an experiment wherein my human form Warshade was able to split aggro with your Dwarf form'd Peacebringer by using provoke, so the next thing we need to do is go back and look at survivability. Whatever build is more durable is obviously a more capable tank (numerically speaking.)
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Hah, that was rich! Starting to get warmed up...
There are many variables associated with taunt and threat rating. I do not feel called to make a thorough examination of the matter. However, I will happily read through your abbreviated report and then decide whether or not to give it my stamp of approval.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Now let's look at utility, since a Warshade's stuns are one of the biggest selling points of the AT. In this department, tri form isn't as behind as it used to be since there's no shift penalty for using Gravitic Emanation or Unchain Essence, but tri form still can't run Inky Aspect. This third layer of stun being constantly applied makes a world of difference in crowd control.
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But you say, "It is for the sake of your team. It is for your utility!"
And I say, "I generally do my best to kill enemies before my teammates die, but if they do their sacrifice is not in vain for I will avenge them by buffing both me and all other teammates with Vengeance."
Oh, and you do know that I raise individuals from the dead too?
Yep...utility...
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Obviously you need to assume max budget and max skill on all counts. I don't know why I need to explain this to you- This is a discussion about ultimate builds, obviously you should be assuming realized potential on all counts. And once again, playing below level 50 is willingly debuffing yourself. You are choosing to be less efficient every time you play below the level cap, so I don't see how that can be relevant in this discussion.
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In my experience, I am quite efficient playing below the level cap with Kheldians.
In fact, I generally melt spawns when exemped....
Yep, self reporting here....
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
First of all, yes you are. You're the best tri form Warshade I've ever played with and you know that. I think you just wanted to make me say it.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
And next, I've actually managed to get my TW/FA Scrapper to 32.5% defense to all positions. He doesn't have a taunt aura until I get him Hybrid, but this would be just as possible on the Brute version of the same sets. A SS/Fire Brute has already duoed the Lambda trial, soloed a GM and soloed a MoITF... Don't underestimate what that build can and can't survive.
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Here's what I think we should do....
We can do some Lev 54 Psi farms with Psi attacks only that are marked to ignore Melee/Ranged/AOE defense
.Then we can go fight some Level 54 enemies that debuff defense whenever they hit
while fighting a level 54 AV that debuffs defense when he/she lands an attack . I wonder if AIB will get to avenge your toons...
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Actually, a human Warshade can lead with stuns and provoke with Hybrid running, and then start to focus on damage output while everything is either mezzed or aggroed to the Warshade.
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"Whenever one chooses for something one chooses against something else."
Decisions must be made. Sacrifices must be made." - The Book of AIB 1:1 (That's right the collected works are going to be part of the "Kheld Canon"
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Warshades can't do that, unless they use envenomed daggers.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Being enslaved to those toggles adds to utility and DPS. It also makes you able to survive extremely tough situations in the first place, and be more reliable as a tank for your teammates.
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Answer the question, Heretic THB, and in so doing affirm the truthfulness found within the Book.
You'd have to elaborate upon what these "extremely tough situations" are and demonstrate (witness) that they could not be survived by others who do not use toggles.
I tank in moderation for I prefer Warshading or Peacebringing.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Edit: *High five* for finding the quote button. :P
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First, I'd like to also congratulate Abe on making full use out of the quoting feature. Much easier on the eyes.
Secondly, THB, don't you know better than to argue with Abe? You just can't win buddy.
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Thank you. |
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
First, I'd like to also congratulate Abe on making full use out of the quoting feature. Much easier on the eyes.
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I am glad that it makes it easier for you to read what I have written.
Hey, that was before instant shapeshift. Now I'm sure to rotate dwarf mire and smite in.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.