Stalkers: Regen, Willpower and QR
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-06-20 06:30 in Suggestions and Ideas
I agree with this, and would further like to suggest we extend this to Dark Melee. I'm playing one right now, and was surprised to find the set lacked Dark Consumption. Upon reflection, it kind of makes sense - what else would you give up? So, here's my suggestion - just put an endurance return element to a successful Syphon Life. Not a major one, of course, not even as major as a single target hit by the traditional Drak Consumption. Just something so I have some way to recover endurance as a Stalker similarly to how I do so as a Scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sounds good to me. Call it "Metabolic Boost"?
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If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
This is a tough one...because I love QR.
However, where Regen and WP give up QR...other sets have to give up something else...and they never even had access to QR...so how do you go about giving them back their replaced power?
If the lack of QR is killer for SO only regen and WP builds...then how have the other sets without QR been played?
You can't be saying that all other sets without QR are only played by people with access to IOs and Cardiac Alpha...
If you look at the other sets, usually an AOE damage toggle is what's lost. Wholly different proposition - if anything, they'll have a bit less END usage to worry about to begin with.
With Willpower and Regen, though, QR (additional +recovery) is one of the reasons for taking it in the first place on a scrapper. With Stalkers recent changes providing (more) encouragement to stick around and scrap it out, that loss of more +recovery is more noticable.
Also, for reference, the Stalker secondary sets "Lost" powers:
Dark Armor - Death Shroud. Cloak of Darkness modified to Shadow Dweller since we have Hide already.
Ice - Icicles. (We keep chilling embrace.)
Electric: Lightning Field
Energy: Kinetic Dampening adds the effect of Dampening Field. Lost Energy Cloak (stealth.) Gained Disrupt.
Nin: Nothing lost, unique to Stalkers
SR: Lost Lucky (auto power,) but given Hide gives AOE defense anyway...
So, really, you're comparing apples and antique farm equipment.
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How about Quick Metabolism, reflecting both the regeneration and recovery bonus of the power?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Add Quick Recovery's END modification into Fast Healing. Obviously the power would need a rename, as it's no longer just "Fast Healing."
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Btw, /signed
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A lost power within a set is a lost power within a set...just because you believe QR is better than those other powers lost does not make it unanimously better.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If you look at the other sets, usually an AOE damage toggle is what's lost. Wholly different proposition - if anything, they'll have a bit less END usage to worry about to begin with.
With Willpower and Regen, though, QR (additional +recovery) is one of the reasons for taking it in the first place on a scrapper. With Stalkers recent changes providing (more) encouragement to stick around and scrap it out, that loss of more +recovery is more noticable. Also, for reference, the Stalker secondary sets "Lost" powers: Dark Armor - Death Shroud. Cloak of Darkness modified to Shadow Dweller since we have Hide already. Ice - Icicles. (We keep chilling embrace.) Electric: Lightning Field Energy: Kinetic Dampening adds the effect of Dampening Field. Lost Energy Cloak (stealth.) Gained Disrupt. Nin: Nothing lost, unique to Stalkers SR: Lost Lucky (auto power,) but given Hide gives AOE defense anyway... So, really, you're comparing apples and antique farm equipment. |
You say QR is one of the main reasons people play Regen and WP. Which means you're saying that it's one of the main reasons Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers play these sets...since they are the only ATs with access to the QR within the set.
One can also say that the damage aura in Fire, Ice, and Electric are the main reasons people play those sets.
Maybe...this should be a suggestion for adding +rec as an inherent to Stalkers...so that Regen and WP don't get treated better than the other Stalker sets.
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The function of the power within the set and how it functions with the AT using that set is what we're talking about. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
A lost power within a set is a lost power within a set...just because you believe QR is better than those other powers lost does not make it unanimously "apples".
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Nowhere did I make a qualitative statement about the power being "better," itself a judgement value. You could say Headsplitter is better than Brawl.... unless I'm low on END and just want a fast attack to get rid of the last 2 HP an enemy has, in which case brawl is better.
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| You say QR is one of the main reasons people play Regen and WP. |
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Which means you're saying that it's one of the main reasons Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers play these sets...since they are the only ATs with access to the QR within the set. One can also say that the damage aura in Fire, Ice, and Electric are the main reasons people play those sets. |
However, they boil down to "Doing more damage," which all of the ATs already *have* means of doing, and the Stalker - despite the recent changes which encourage sticking around and scrapping instead of the historic hit-and-run mindset - isn't typically the AT you want *holding* aggro. Therefore, said auras would be counterproductive to the AT's role - which is essentially spike damage, with followup damage leading to another spike where AS can be used as stacks build.
Damage auras, in other words, are not a net positive to (most) Stalkers. Should they get in over their heads, those sets can only disengage from one enemy via Placate. However, having a choice of sets which retain +Recovery - something that serves a completely different purpose - can be.
Plus, the ATs that *have* damage auras also tend to be heavier on AOE damage potential (and be "beefier" still than the Stalker, which still has the lowest max HP of all the ATs,) making those auras far more useful and central to the character's combat style (and the characters themselves can survive the attention longer.)
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| Maybe...this should be a suggestion for adding +rec as an inherent to Stalkers...so that Regen and WP don't get treated better than the other Stalker sets. |
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I can turn that right back around and say, if you (apparently) want to add the damage auras back in, then we need to add damage auras to WP and Regen so they're not left out.
The *design* of WP and Regen is a different form of survivability, one which not including +Recovery diminishes. This is not true of the other sets Stalkers have. SR gives defense, Ice gives defense and slow resists, Dark gives resists and control, and so forth, and Stalkers really lose nothing by not having those damage auras.
I can sort of see this both ways. Yes, Regen and Willpower stalks lose some Endurance recovery. However, they also gain an extra 3% defense, or so, for no cost. /Regen already being toggle-light, I don't think it would need it. I could see some benefit for it in /Willpower, though.
Tangentially related, can we please get recovery debuff resistance put into Quick Recovery? Nothing like being supposedly the epitome of healing and stamina, and yet a single Sapper can bring my blue bar from full to flat in two seconds. I don't even care if it's only a small amount of rec debuff res, as long as it's SOMETHING...pretty please?
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Originally Posted by Dispari
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The Lucky defence buff is rolled into Agile, which now gives ranged and AoE defence. You lose a passive for the health-dependent resistances, but the remaining two passives give a higher resistance bonus to compensate. It doesn't even out entirely, but it's close.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
SR: Lost Lucky (auto power,) but given Hide gives AOE defense anyway...
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Originally Posted by Vitality
A lost power within a set is a lost power within a set...just because you believe QR is better than those other powers lost does not make it unanimously better.
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You can't replicate the effects of damage auras lost for Hide any more than you can replicate the effects of a lost AoE power, but you CAN and probably SHOULD replicate the effects of a utility buff power by rolling those effects into an already existing one in the same way SR retains most of the use of the passive it gives up for Hide. You can and you should.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm pretty confused as to the direction of this suggestion and the resulting argument about "lost powers". I guess there's information that I'm simply lacking.
Instead of trying to roll some lost power--specifically QR--into another power, why not suggest that the AT's Inherent power actually include the freakin' inherent power? Every Stalker is forced to take Hide. Hide is part and parcel of their Inherent power (most of it, anyway). Dominators have an inherent that is a click.
Why can't Stalkers have a 0 end cost toggle as their inherent? No need for any of them to have lost powers. Simplify adding additional powersets to the AT in the future.
Like I said, obviously there's some information I'm missing. Could someone please enlighten me as to why this isn't something they did from the start (or, more realisticly, after Castle left)? It's something I've never understood.
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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One of the things about Stalkers is that, even with ported powersets, they have to give something up. On the primary side, it's usually to make room for Assassin's Strike - they'll usually lose an AOE.
On the secondary side, it varies, but something gets modified or dropped in order to fit in Hide at level one.
For Regen and Willpower, it's Quick Recovery. Now, back when Willpower was in beta, Stalker players tried to convince Castle to fold the functionality into Fast Healing or *something.* (Admittedly this was before Inherent Stamina, so builds for Stalkers were incredibly tight - one of the reasons for Scrappers to take it, after all.) He was absolutely adamant that Stalkers, quote, "will never get Quick Recovery."
This tended to reinforce, for those sets, the "hit and run" play of Issue 6 Stalkers (the same playstyle that made them also-rans on teams for so long.) As someone who ran a MA/Regen Stalker to 50, I can say it was... painful.
This also was frustrating in that, unlike the other "just no" answers we get from the devs (such as AT/Pri/Sec respecs,) we never really got a reason - other than Castle apparently not liking the idea.
Since then, two things have happened that I believe warrants revisiting this idea.
1. Castle is no longer with the company, and
2. Stalkers got a *big* change in how AS works that massively changes their playstyle.
The fact that we have Free and Premium players who are locked out of IOs should also be taken into consideration here, as they lose (or have to pay extra for) the ability to offset the lack of Quick Recovery with IO set bonuses and the Cardiac alpha.
What brought this to mind was revisiting a couple of characters - Piracat, my 50 BS/SR (read: end hog) Scrapper (same one that got a cameo in the old comic, yep!) and that MA/Regen Stalker (also 50.) I was considering re-creating Piracat elsewhere as a stalker since I love the Stalker playstyle now, but wanted to offset BS's END use some.
So, the suggestion?
Add Quick Recovery's END modification into Fast Healing. Obviously the power would need a rename, as it's no longer just "Fast Healing." With Stalkers encouraged to be more active in battles, END use is going to go up some to where it's noticed more (I noticed it as it is as I've pretty much always stayed to scrap it out with my Stalkers.) It'll make life a bit easier for those on SOs, and for those using IOs, it may open up some other slotting possibilities.