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Originally Posted by Edana
Bonfire only pulses every 2 seconds not 0.2. Since targets can't be knocked down after starting their get-up animation this can leave a significant, and often synchronised, period during which the targeted mob is free to act.
Also, this is hardly the first time an IO has dramatically changed the usability of a power. The Theft of Essence proc in Dark Regen is probably the most obvious example, but several of the ATO sets have similar effects. An FF, Cold or Sonic Defender turning a mediocre attack into a fairly reliable healing aura is set changing. The global chance for heal in the second Kheldian set and the Blaster +Mez protection IO change the viability of entire ATs. In context turning Bonfire into a semi-reliable soft control doesn't seem outside the new paradigm. |
You're right about the 2 second pulse. I had read it as 0.2 (same as Ice Slick). So, my mistake there. Although I do think Masterminds with such a reliable mezz is a big mistake. Fire Controllers need to cage things, Masterminds don't. This isn't a big win for Controllers, its a big win for things that don't need Containment damage. It's better than nothing for Fire Controllers, but Ice Slick with a 50% longer duration + damage in an APP for Blasters and Masterminds.
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| Since targets can't be knocked down after starting their get-up animation... |
I haven't gone back into the game to check, but it always seemed to me you couldn't knock an enemy while it is currently in a knock state. Once they stabilize, from what I think I've seen, they are knockable again. I watched Ice Slick carefully for a while and what I thought I saw was enemies only being knocked down once they completed the initial falling animation. They land flat on their back, then their legs fling back into the air and they fall again without fully standing. But, I will have to have a closer look to remind myself.
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The good news there is that since all versions summon the same entity they're still stuck with controller damage.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
You're right about the 2 second pulse. I had read it as 0.2 (same as Ice Slick). So, my mistake there. Although I do think Masterminds with such a reliable mezz is a big mistake. Fire Controllers need to cage things, Masterminds don't. This isn't a big win for Controllers, its a big win for things that don't need Containment damage. It's better than nothing for Fire Controllers, but Ice Slick with a 50% longer duration + damage in an APP for Blasters and Masterminds.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Are you sure about this?..
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What I always thought was happening there was that the animation started playing and was halfway done when they went flying. When that happens with knockback, the kb still applies but the animation plays.|
Originally Posted by Edana
I might be wrong. Now I'm thinking about it levitate and knockout blow are both knockup not down. I am sure I've had no end of things finish going through their get up animation while airborne.
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For example, if you ever get knocked back while using a particularly long animation it's possible for the animation to keep playing but you get pushed backward. You may also seem to land on your feet, but you still can't do anything for a while. What I always thought was happening is that animation priority kept your character in his or her "attack" animation but all of the penalties of a KB were actually applied, just not shown visually.
Other weird situation: sometimes if you knockback something that is about to teleport, it will play the teleport animation anyway but still fly backward from its starting location.
With Lift and Levitate specifically, I believe you can't knock the enemy back or up again while it is still traveling upward, but once the knock up ends and it starts to fall you can hit them and they will go up or back from midair.
Well I pulled a mind/stone dom and a stone/ea brute out of retirement for some testing. I would hesitate to call the results definitive but here's what I've got:-
- You can't knock down something that is currently ragdolled or playing a knockdown animation. Once it starts to get up you can knock it down normally but you can't ragdoll it or knock it down using the low mag knockup backflip animation.
- The movement portion of knockup/knockback is completely detached from whether the corresponding ragdoll is applied.
- There are some oddities with animation priority like the guaranteed knockdown in fault failing to occur in some cases where the power stunned the target and it began to drunkenly stagger instead.
If you use Bonfire on +5 mobs the KB is reduced to KD and you can see EXACTLY how it would work with the KB->KD IO. Assuming that it all works as advertised it makes them flop like fish out of water. I've used it several times that way and it totally eliminates the need for any other control for most spawns. I'm assuming it'll get nerfed HARD unless Ice/ gets a hefty buff.
S'ok, I'm looking forward to KD tornado almost as much. 
Arg
Who knows? Maybe not? Fire needs the Control/Mitigation. I have yet to be able to get the KB IO and you're not allowed to convert it : /.
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Well it's not like it couldn't do with one.
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Originally Posted by Argentae
... unless Ice/ gets a hefty buff.
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Well THAT sucks. Converters are my fav drop! |
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Who knows? Maybe not? Fire needs the Control/Mitigation. I have yet to be able to get the KB IO and you're not allowed to convert it : /.
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Arg
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Yeah, sadly my friends are to busy to all get on beta at the same time so I guess I will have to sit this one out until it hits live.
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Originally Posted by Argentae
Well THAT sucks. Converters are my fav drop!
Arg |
Since the thread now talks bout KB -> KD
Does anyone know if you slot it into Singluarity , its repulsion field changes and rather than knocking back mobs , it will just knock down ?
Also, this is hardly the first time an IO has dramatically changed the usability of a power. The Theft of Essence proc in Dark Regen is probably the most obvious example, but several of the ATO sets have similar effects. An FF, Cold or Sonic Defender turning a mediocre attack into a fairly reliable healing aura is set changing. The global chance for heal in the second Kheldian set and the Blaster +Mez protection IO change the viability of entire ATs. In context turning Bonfire into a semi-reliable soft control doesn't seem outside the new paradigm.