Rikti Pylons, Giant Monsters, Procs, and a bit of everything else...
By
Combat,
Posted on: 2012-01-26 23:55 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Most powers, even attacks, can obtain sufficient enhancement value with 5 slots or less. This means you can often slot a proc and give up nothing you'd miss. Don't go overboard on this - most attacks are best with either zero or one procs.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
First, I've traditionally avoided procs in general (as far as damage and -Res procs go), in favor of more effective overall enhancement values. My logic has always been that I will get more use over time out of better enhancement values than the unreliable nature of procs, however effective they may be when they work. Am I delusional? Should I be throwing procs in everything I can? Will I even notice the difference?
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| Off the top of my head, I know I can (if I can afford it) put an Achilles Heel proc in Ablating Strike on the DB/Ice. I would most likely drop either a Mako's Tri or Quad to do this. Would this make a significant difference in my sustained damage output? |
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| Second, is it even *possible* for a set dealing exclusively (outside of Interface DoT's) Smashing and/or Lethal damage to output enough damage (short of edge cases like maybe a Stone/Shield Brute or very expensive purple/PvP builds) to solo a GM (or Pylon for that matter), or would you need to add in large amounts of either -Res or -Regen? Street Justice doesn't count, because everyone already knows that it's broken. lol |
If you're limiting yourself to S/L only, probably not possible, because that rules out /Fire or any damage aura. GMs have huge regen, around 300 hp/sec for the higher level ones, if I recall, which means you need to do 300+ DPS to make any progress at all, and far above that if you want fights under 10 minutes long.
If your definition of "soloing" includes inspirations, Lore pets, and/or easily-obtained temp powers (Envenomed Dagger), this admittedly becomes dramatically easier.
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| Third... The build for the Fire/Dark Scrapper is, shall we say... Unusual. Long story short, I resurrected it from the depths of the last page of my characters on Virtue, because I was bored, and wanted something "different". However, I didn't like any of the sword attacks. So, it's attack chain consists of Incinerate>Cremate>Scorch>Fire Blast. I have Fire Ball and an unslotted Fire Breath (I took Fire Breath at 49 because I couldn't think of anything else) for AoE's as needed, and may be able to drop Fire Blast from the chain when I scrape up the cash for the 3 LotG's I have in the build. The damage output is... Rather scary, but I'm coming from playing mostly tanks or damage dealers dealing exclusively Smashing/Lethal, so I might be impressed at nothing impressive. The question is, have I totally gimped myself by not taking Fire Sword, Greater Fire Sword and Fire Sword Circle? Or am I better off with the chain I have now, since I have the recharge I need to chain it without pause? According to Mids, Incinerate crits (and it seems to do so quite frequently) for a total of 662 damage, not counting the Touch of Death proc. |
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| Related to the MA/Dark mentioned above, does anyone know how effective the -MaxHP of Degenerative Partial Radial is against AV's/GM's and such? Would it be worth taking, or would I be better off with Total Radial for the higher chance of damage? |
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For the DB/Ice, I can throw a Touch of Death proc in Nimble Slash by dropping a Mako's tri or quad. Ablating Strike is currently slotted with 4 Smashing Haymaker, plus the Mako's tri and quad to even out the values. If I add the Achilles proc, would I be better off keeping the quad, or replacing it with a proc (Touch of Death) as well? I'm probably looking at this the wrong way, but if my math is right (which it probably isn't, I'm beyond terrible at math), I would be adding a total of 125 damage per use of Attack Vitals (roughly 5 seconds to complete the entire combo, and not factoring in the DoT) by slotting the Achilles proc. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Most powers, even attacks, can obtain sufficient enhancement value with 5 slots or less. This means you can often slot a proc and give up nothing you'd miss. Don't go overboard on this - most attacks are best with either zero or one procs.
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I could fit a ToD proc in 5 attacks on the MA/Dark (since I'm six-slotting Crushing Impacts in everything on that)... Which might end up being worth it, especially for the example of Jurassik, since he has reduced NE resistance.
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| I'm not sure what you mean about StJ, it's no more broken than any melee set, and dramatically less broken than, say, TW or SS. |
[/quote]If you're limiting yourself to S/L only, probably not possible, because that rules out /Fire or any damage aura. GMs have huge regen, around 300 hp/sec for the higher level ones, if I recall, which means you need to do 300+ DPS to make any progress at all, and far above that if you want fights under 10 minutes long.[/quote]
Not "limiting myself" per se, I'm just trying to complete the given task with the tools I already have. I'm trying to use this topic to determine if I'm trying to drive nails with a hammer or a chisel. Like a shop teacher once said.. "Son, you had better stop using that chisel as a screwdriver, or else it'll never work as a hammer when you need it to!" If all I have is chisels and screwdrivers, I might have to invest in a hammer, if you know what I mean.
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| If your definition of "soloing" includes inspirations, Lore pets, and/or easily-obtained temp powers (Envenomed Dagger), this admittedly becomes dramatically easier. |
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| Incinerate-Scorch-Cremate-Scorch should be a superior chain to the one you're using, but not dramatically so. You can build a decent chain (like the one I just named) without the single-target sword attacks, so those are skippable if necessary, but I would hate to skip Fire Sword Circle. Your concept is your concept, though. |
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| Degenerative's -hp is basically trash against AVs and GMs. It caps at -150 hp per stack, making it far weaker than Reactive's res debuff, and either will be weaker than the Reactive DoT for all but the most extreme (and extremely expensive) builds. |
Thanks alot for the help, I really appreciate it!
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If you have Musculature, 4 Smashing Haymakers will ED-cap your damage. If not, the 4 Haymakers plus the Mako quad will. If you need more acc, end, or rech the triple is nice, but many attacks can get by without it.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
For the DB/Ice, I can throw a Touch of Death proc in Nimble Slash by dropping a Mako's tri or quad. Ablating Strike is currently slotted with 4 Smashing Haymaker, plus the Mako's tri and quad to even out the values. If I add the Achilles proc, would I be better off keeping the quad, or replacing it with a proc (Touch of Death) as well?
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| I'm probably looking at this the wrong way, but if my math is right (which it probably isn't, I'm beyond terrible at math), I would be adding a total of 125 damage per use of Attack Vitals (roughly 5 seconds to complete the entire combo, and not factoring in the DoT) by slotting the Achilles proc. |
As a rough estimate, you can pretend that the proc is a constant -4% resist, which is reasonably accurate if you use the attack with the proc about once every 10 seconds. So if you do 150 DPS without the proc, you'd therefore gain ~6 DPS using the proc, according to the rule of thumb. Using the proc more often will see a larger gain (but with some diminishing returns, since it can't stack), and less often will be a smaller gain.
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| I could fit a ToD proc in 5 attacks on the MA/Dark (since I'm six-slotting Crushing Impacts in everything on that)... Which might end up being worth it, especially for the example of Jurassik, since he has reduced NE resistance. |
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| Sorry, I'm just slightly biased against a certain StJ Stalker I know, who frequently reminds me that he can hit Romulus with Crushing Uppercut for something like 3,000 damage. >.> |
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| As I mentioned somewhere in the wall of text I posted (I know, I'm long-winded), I'm eliminating Lore pets, red inspirations (and other artificial damage boosts) and temp powers of any sort from the equation. |
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| *tries to do the math... fails* If it's -150hp per stack, and my math is right... And assuming that I keep a constant 4 stacks... That would reduce Jurassik's (keeping with the example) health regeneration by... 3 HP/s. Yeahhh... Worthless. lol |
Again, I greatly appreciate the help and explanations!
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Yeah, I was more worried about the Acc/End/Rech than the damage. I noticed the damage was already ED-capped.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
If you have Musculature, 4 Smashing Haymakers will ED-cap your damage. If not, the 4 Haymakers plus the Mako quad will. If you need more acc, end, or rech the triple is nice, but many attacks can get by without it.
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Careful with that calculation - that's how much the proc is worth when it goes off, which is only 20% of the time. Since the proc rate is the same as most IO procs, you can compare that value directly to the damage from, say, a Mako's bite proc. The Achilles' Heel pretty much always comes out ahead in that comparison, by a wide margin, so it's better than a damage proc. To figure out how much it does for your chain as a whole is a bit more complicated. As a rough estimate, you can pretend that the proc is a constant -4% resist, which is reasonably accurate if you use the attack with the proc about once every 10 seconds. So if you do 150 DPS without the proc, you'd therefore gain ~6 DPS using the proc, according to the rule of thumb. Using the proc more often will see a larger gain (but with some diminishing returns, since it can't stack), and less often will be a smaller gain. |
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| Other than for hunting Jurassik and similar negative-vulnerable foes, I'd use the Mako proc instead, personally. Lethal resistance is much more common than negative resistance, but not by so much that a negative damage proc's average performance is better with a 1/4 lower proc rate. If you deal lethal damage yourself, it might be worthwhile to use the ToD proc, to hedge your bets a little against lethal resistance. You can also consider damage procs from your secondary effect sets - Touch of Lady Grey has a better negative proc than ToD, Explosive Strike has a smashing proc which is less resisted than the lethal from Mako, etc. |
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I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that it will overwrite/refresh the duration.
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Originally Posted by Scirion
Since it would be going in Ablating Strike, and Ablating Strike comes in at the start of my chain, I'd be using it roughly every 6 seconds, give or take. If it procs again while still active, does that just refresh the timer on the existing proc, or does it just ignore the would-be proc until the next chance?
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Sorry, coming back to this one briefly. I checked my current build in Mids, and am officially confused.
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| Incinerate-Scorch-Cremate-Scorch should be a superior chain to the one you're using, but not dramatically so. You can build a decent chain (like the one I just named) without the single-target sword attacks, so those are skippable if necessary, but I would hate to skip Fire Sword Circle. Your concept is your concept, though. |
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but... Since Fire Blast does just over double the damage of Scorch (334.5 for Fire Blast, 165 for Scorch), I'm not sure how that works. >.> Now... Why this fact did not occur to me earlier, I have no idea. lol
Unless Mids is wrong about EPP attacks again, which is... Not completely unheard of... *glares at Stalker EPP attacks*
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Mids is wrong about both Stalker and Scrapper EPP attacks, and in the same way - it adds all the crit damage together, including the guaranteed hidden crit (yes, even though scrappers don't have Hide). If you mouse over the damage, it shows how the damage breaks into its component hits: unslotted, it does 62.56 damage, plus a 5% crit for the same amount, plus a 10% crit for the same amount, plus a guaranteed crit for the same amount, plus the DoT. This all adds up to the much-too-large figure of 154.5 damage.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
Unless Mids is wrong about EPP attacks again, which is... Not completely unheard of... *glares at Stalker EPP attacks*
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In reality, Scrapper Fire Blast deals 62.56 damage, and a 5% or 10% chance (depending on target) for another 62.56 damage, plus the DoT. Against 10% crit targets, this means its average damage will be 62.56 + .1*62.56 + 4*6.26*.8 = 88.8, and so its DPA will be 61.19 with Arcanatime. This is nearly identical to Scorch's base DPA (61.3), but Scorch costs less and also casts more quickly, and therefore benefits more from procs like Reactive. The difference between the two chains will be small, though, and there are occasionally some benefits to having a ranged attack that don't show up in an attack chain calculation, so you'll probably be fine either way. If you're short on slots, the all-melee chain only needs you to slot 3 attacks instead of 4; on the other hand, maybe you want a certain set bonus from Fire Blast anyway, and you do still need it for Fire Ball.
Ill/Cold/Mace Controller. The best of all worlds.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
Just popping in to say that the formula for the effectiveness of -res procs is
10 / (Time of chain/number of procs in the chain)*4+10)
For instance, a chain of 11.88 seconds with 2 achilles heel procs (perhaps from the using the power twice in one chain, or two different powers with the proc) would be
10 / ((11.88/2)*4+10).
Also, procs tend to do wonders for DPS, though I understand not using the because of their randomness. However, I've found that giving a low end/activation time power 3-4 procs and getting it to the damage cap can create a lot of DPS. Where procs really hurt is in end efficiency. You can make up recharge fairly easily with IOs, but it is hard to get back the end that a */end IO would give you.
Also, Ill. controllers and MMs (specifically /trap MMs) tend to be the only builds that can solo GMs at the lower end of investment (and no lore/reds/temps). I've soloed GMs on couple of melee characters (my TW/Elec and DM/SD), but on many I've had to use lore pets, especially if they have resists.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Ooh, very interesting.|
Originally Posted by Combat
Just popping in to say that the formula for the effectiveness of -res procs is
10 / (Time of chain/number of procs in the chain)*4+10) For instance, a chain of 11.88 seconds with 2 achilles heel procs (perhaps from the using the power twice in one chain, or two different powers with the proc) would be 10 / ((11.88/2)*4+10). |
I'm not certain I understand what this equation is telling me, though - your example gives .29, does that mean it's 29% uptime on average? Does the spacing of the procs in that chain matter?
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Yes, the formula is for uptime. Average -res % would be|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Ooh, very interesting.
I'm not certain I understand what this equation is telling me, though - your example gives .29, does that mean it's 29% uptime on average? Does the spacing of the procs in that chain matter? |
Strength of -res (20% for achilles heel I believe) * formula from before.
Spacing in the chain should not matter long-term.
TW/Elec Optimization
Uh oh. We're introducing math now. You're confusing me. >.>
I get the number of... 16.79, if I have this right.
I came to this conclusion by doing...
10/5.89(total activation time for my chain)/1(one AH proc in Ablating)*4+10
Is that correct?
Edit: On a related note... Is there any way to factor in the damage from Attack Vitals? If my math is right, (which is probably isn't, but we'll just pretend it is), Ablating>Weaken>Repeat does slightly more damage (specifically,13.23 total) per cast time than Ablating>Attack Vitals>Repeat, but I'm assuming Mids can't account for the bonus DoT from Attack Vitals... I'm assuming (and we all know what happens when you assume) that the faster total cast time for Attack Vitals (5.89 compared to 6.96 for Weaken) plus the DoT would actually result in significantly higher damage... But I'm also terrible at math, so I could be wrong. :/
Also, figured I'd reply to this one as well since I'm here:
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I took it so I could six-slot Fire Blast with Devastation/Thunderstrike (4/2 slotting, respectively). Char is 5-slotted with the PvP Hold set, because I can. Fire Ball got 5 Posi's+Javelin Volley Acc/End/Rech. lol It was one of my few builds where I sat around for a couple minutes trying to figure out what to use extra slots on. *shrug* As it turns out... Skipping 4 out of 9 powers in your primary set gives you a TON of slotting options. >.>
| If you're short on slots, the all-melee chain only needs you to slot 3 attacks instead of 4; on the other hand, maybe you want a certain set bonus from Fire Blast anyway, and you do still need it for Fire Ball. |
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No, because that would mean you had 1679% uptime |
Originally Posted by Scirion
I get the number of... 16.79, if I have this right.
I came to this conclusion by doing... 10/5.89(total activation time for my chain)/1(one AH proc in Ablating)*4+10 Is that correct? |
Be careful of the nesting of parentheses - it looks like you did 10/5.89/1*4+10, but you need to do 10/((5.89/1)*4+10)=.29, or ~29% uptime, which means you're effectively getting ~5.8% -res average.
I warned you. I can't do math.
In an effort to avoid cluttering up several different threads, and/or starting several of my own, I figured I'd save some space and just lump everything into one tidy thread... With that said, I have a few somewhat related questions. Mostly relating to the Rikti Pylon thread in the Scrapper forum.
It has dawned on me that despite having my fair share of damage dealers and/or debuffers in several forms, I have nothing capable of truly soloing a Rikti Pylon (or lower-class Giant Monster like the Clockwork Paladin. Exception being my Kin/Dark Defender which can solo the Paladin thanks to Diamagnetic's -Regen, in about 15 minutes, if I recall correctly). By "truly solo" I mean no Lore pets, red inspirations, temp powers, or outside buffs/debuffs. Other inspirations (purples or blues to keep me going, etc), EPP pets if I have them, etc are acceptable to me, as is Destiny/Judgement/Interface.
That said, I have tried the Pylon test with the following characters, and encountered the following issues with each:
MA/Dark Scrapper - Given enough time, might be able to do it, but lacks the survival necessary to avoid using Dark Regeneration frequently, dropping my DPS significantly. I'm running Reactive Partial Radial right now, I'm debating switching to Degenerative Total or Partial Radial.
DB/Ice Stalker - Simply not enough damage, despite being able to endlessly chain Ablating Strike>Attack Vitals>Repeat, throwing in Build Up when it's available. Between the Toxic DoT from Degenerative, T2 Musculature, and the added DoT from Attack Vitals, this was "the one" I was most expecting to be able to do it. I left disappointed. Also has the issue of having 0% Resistance across the board other than F/C, and Toxic when Hoarfrost is up. Icy Bastion can't be relied upon, for the obvious downtime issue. I suspect that being all-Lethal damage (other than Degenerative) may also be a contributing factor.
Fire/Dark Frankenbuild Scrapper (details on this one later) - I'm fairly certain this has the damage output for a Pylon (and I suspect I might be able to take Jurassik as well as far as DPS is concerned), but severely lacking in the survival area (no Incarnate stuff of any kind yet), and drains endurance in no time. I'm hopeful that Cardiac (when I finally get the shards I need) will help with the endurance issues, but I still don't think it will have the prolonged survival necessary for either task.
I've tried it with a few squishies to even more impressive failure.
Now, on to the questions...
First, I've traditionally avoided procs in general (as far as damage and -Res procs go), in favor of more effective overall enhancement values. My logic has always been that I will get more use over time out of better enhancement values than the unreliable nature of procs, however effective they may be when they work. Am I delusional? Should I be throwing procs in everything I can? Will I even notice the difference?
Off the top of my head, I know I can (if I can afford it) put an Achilles Heel proc in Ablating Strike on the DB/Ice. I would most likely drop either a Mako's Tri or Quad to do this. Would this make a significant difference in my sustained damage output?
Second, is it even *possible* for a set dealing exclusively (outside of Interface DoT's) Smashing and/or Lethal damage to output enough damage (short of edge cases like maybe a Stone/Shield Brute or very expensive purple/PvP builds) to solo a GM (or Pylon for that matter), or would you need to add in large amounts of either -Res or -Regen? Street Justice doesn't count, because everyone already knows that it's broken. lol
Third... The build for the Fire/Dark Scrapper is, shall we say... Unusual. Long story short, I resurrected it from the depths of the last page of my characters on Virtue, because I was bored, and wanted something "different". However, I didn't like any of the sword attacks. So, it's attack chain consists of Incinerate>Cremate>Scorch>Fire Blast. I have Fire Ball and an unslotted Fire Breath (I took Fire Breath at 49 because I couldn't think of anything else) for AoE's as needed, and may be able to drop Fire Blast from the chain when I scrape up the cash for the 3 LotG's I have in the build. The damage output is... Rather scary, but I'm coming from playing mostly tanks or damage dealers dealing exclusively Smashing/Lethal, so I might be impressed at nothing impressive. The question is, have I totally gimped myself by not taking Fire Sword, Greater Fire Sword and Fire Sword Circle? Or am I better off with the chain I have now, since I have the recharge I need to chain it without pause? According to Mids, Incinerate crits (and it seems to do so quite frequently) for a total of 662 damage, not counting the Touch of Death proc.
Related to the MA/Dark mentioned above, does anyone know how effective the -MaxHP of Degenerative Partial Radial is against AV's/GM's and such? Would it be worth taking, or would I be better off with Total Radial for the higher chance of damage?
That's all I can think of right now, although I know there was something else I wanted to ask. I'd appreciate any insight anyone can give, and if you want to see the builds for any of the mentioned characters, just yell, and I can put them up.