Mind/thorn permadom without hasten: Is it worth it?

JanusFrs · 12-16-2011 03:11 PM

Hi people!

Recently I was informed that it is possible to acchieve permadom without hasten active, and have thus made a build for my Mind/Thorn with it. My question however; is it worth it on Mind especially to go without permahasten? Or will the extra recharge be more interesting to have the hard controls come up more often?

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Dominator
Primary Power Set: Mind Control
Secondary Power Set: Thorny Assault
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mesmerize -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(25), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Decim-Build%(37)
Level 1: Thorny Darts -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Dominate -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(25), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31), HO:Nucle(37)
Level 4: Skewer -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(5), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29)
Level 6: Confuse -- Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(A), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(7), Mlais-Conf/Rng(7), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31), Mlais-Dam%(37)
Level 8: Mass Hypnosis -- FtnHyp-Sleep(A), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(9), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(9), FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(34), FtnHyp-Plct%(40)
Level 10: Impale -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(11), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 16: Fling Thorns -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(17), Posi-Dmg/Rng(43), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 18: Total Domination -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(19), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(19), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(34), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(40)
Level 20: Thorn Burst -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(21), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 22: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 24: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 26: Terrify -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(27), Posi-Dmg/Rng(34), Posi-Dam%(43)
Level 28: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 30: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Mass Confusion -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(33), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(33), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(33), CoPers-Conf%(40)
Level 35: Ripper -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(36), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Armgdn-Dam%(42)
Level 38: Thorn Barrage -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(39), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 41: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(48)
Level 44: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(48), LkGmblr-Def(48)
Level 49: Grant Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Domination
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-End%(15)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run

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I doubt I'll go live with this very build, as it is VERY end heavy if I so decide to run the toggles (not sure if I will). This is more hypothetical to have something going if it's more interesting to go without permahasten on a Mind dom.

@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)

If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself

_Ail_ · 12-17-2011 10:00 PM

I would go for capped s/l def plus permadom w/o hasten, which should be rather easily achievable with a mind/thorn. Going mace mastery for epic is always the cheapest way to achieve this...

"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

JanusFrs · 12-18-2011 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ail_

I would go for capped s/l def plus permadom w/o hasten, which should be rather easily achievable with a mind/thorn. Going mace mastery for epic is always the cheapest way to achieve this...

Yeah, I know many people often recommend Mace Mastery, but I didn't take that pool on the build because the toon is themed to independent of Arachnos and any other faction but his own, thus no Epic pool.

But really, my question was more if I should go through with the build, with some tweaks of course, or if mind doms need the extra recharge from Hasten for the hard control AoEs with long recharge.

@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)

If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself

Oedipus_Tex · 12-18-2011 03:13 AM

Not bad overall, but I'm a little confused by the build. Not nitpicking, just glacing it over:

- No Hasten, but Invisibility, Stealth, and Super Speed + Stealth proc. If you just want a mule for +Defense, make it Link Minds and Combat Jumping and drop the extra stealth abilities.

- It has Weave, but still seems to have very low defense overall (especially given the cost of the build)

- No APP powers at all.

FWIW I would not skip Hasten on a Dominator (or Controller).

_Ail_ · 12-18-2011 09:24 AM

I would echo OT here:

* Really low defense overall in your build.

* Mace mastery works very well for concept builds because of its subtle effects. No one need know you have scorp shield on and both it and pff can use lotg.

* I am more sympathetic to no hasten for doms because of lag and only one auto power possible.

"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

JanusFrs · 12-20-2011 02:23 PM

Well, some comments on your critique points; will do my best to spread my observations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

- No Hasten, but Invisibility, Stealth, and Super Speed + Stealth proc. If you just want a mule for +Defense, make it Link Minds and Combat Jumping and drop the extra stealth abilities.

- It has Weave, but still seems to have very low defense overall (especially given the cost of the build)

You are right, the stealth powers have been intended as LotG mules, nothing less. I have glared at the Psionic APP before, but seem to remember people saying it isn't that good; I could be convinced to use it anyway, as long as I have the "optimal" amount of recharge in the build.

Regarding the low amount of defense in the set, I am aware of ways to increase it, don't doubt that; in the meantime, is it actually "needed" to be softcapped for the combination to work? After all, isn't the mitigation of the controls "enough" to stay alive through mobs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

- No APP powers at all.

FWIW I would not skip Hasten on a Dominator (or Controller).

Is it actually unusual for a Dom build to not include APP? I mean we all know dom's can do very good damage and, if, to some degree, ignoring Mind and Gravity, have many ways of totally neutralizing all enemies around them. Surely they won't need much other power?

That said, as mentioned above, I have thought about and wouldn't mind getting Psionic mastery instead of all the stealth powers.

Regarding hasten, thank you for answering my core question, the question of whether perma-dom without hasten is worth it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ail_

* Mace mastery works very well for concept builds because of its subtle effects. No one need know you have scorp shield on and both it and pff can use lotg.

Only point I'll comment upon in your thread is the abovementioned.

I can easier accept thinking of mace mastery when being informed of the lack of visible effects in the set's defenses. That said, in the end I think that other concept players can understand my thought that when you have a "planned" development of your toon, roads decided to avoid can under know circumstances be considered walking. The concept of this toon is to be an autonomous rogue, in fact the leader of a sect. That said, he came to power by the help of the mystic power of his sect, not any other means, Arachnos counting here.

So forgive the stubbornness, but I am willing to sacrifice build performance in order to fit the theme :P

@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)

If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself

Snowzone · 12-21-2011 07:03 AM

The way I see it, Dominator APPs are some of the most useful for several reasons:

1) Fast recharging AoE attack
2) Defensive power
3) Debuff power
4) Utility power
5) Self healing power

Basically, it makes Dominators even more self-sufficient.

JanusFrs · 12-21-2011 02:35 PM

So I've been trying some changes to the build to make it more gameplay wise interesting, as I do imagine I would've been bored with the initial build. Oddly enough it was very difficult to get permadom sans hasten with that build compared to the other, as you will be able to see in the build, but it worked anyway:

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Dominator
Primary Power Set: Mind Control
Secondary Power Set: Thorny Assault
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mesmerize -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(25), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Decim-Build%(37)
Level 1: Thorny Darts -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Dominate -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(25), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31), HO:Nucle(37)
Level 4: Skewer -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(5), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29)
Level 6: Confuse -- Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(A), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(7), Mlais-Conf/Rng(7), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31), Mlais-Dam%(37)
Level 8: Mass Hypnosis -- FtnHyp-Sleep(A), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(9), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(9), FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(34), FtnHyp-Plct%(40)
Level 10: Impale -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(11), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 16: Fling Thorns -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(17), Posi-Dmg/Rng(43), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 18: Total Domination -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(19), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(19), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(34), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(40)
Level 20: Thorn Burst -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(21), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 22: Aim -- AdjTgt-ToHit(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(23), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(23), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(46), AdjTgt-Rchg(48)
Level 24: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Terrify -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(27), Posi-Dmg/Rng(34), Posi-Dam%(43)
Level 28: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 30: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 32: Mass Confusion -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(33), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(33), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(33), CoPers-Conf%(40)
Level 35: Ripper -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Oblit-%Dam(46)
Level 38: Thorn Barrage -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(39), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 41: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(42), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(42), LkGmblr-Def(42)
Level 44: Link Minds -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def(45)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Domination
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-End%(15)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run

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@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)

If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself