City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

New armor set - vector-based resist

Aett_Thorn

By Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-12-01 03:50 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigman View Post
I should hope that it's correct in S/L are primaries and others are secondaries where applicable. if not that was an oversight. of cource, they weren't intending on having positional resistance anyway.
I'm not sure what you even mean by this. What is a primary and secondary damage? There is no such thing. They all apply equally.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
I'm not sure what you even mean by this. What is a primary and secondary damage? There is no such thing. They all apply equally.
I agree that "the game" doesn't have it. What I am saying is, that for this set, it would apply.
Example: a fireball is launched at you smahing into you(smahing damage), after impact you are engulfed in flame. if you have resistance to a projectile IE: an aura that can (somehow) slow the object. It wouldn't change the fact that you're about to be enculfed in flame. Fire damage unchanged.

The same applies to ice or any other "seconrary" damage.

Now in the case of fire breath (only fire damage) Fire is the primary attack and isn't incased in the projectile. Therefore can be resisted by the same (somehow) slowing and deminishing effect concept.

All that to say. That's how it should work, but couldn't due to the Devs not planning for positional resistance.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigman View Post
Example: a fireball is launched at you smahing into you(smahing damage), after impact you are engulfed in flame. if you have resistance to a projectile IE: an aura that can (somehow) slow the object. It wouldn't change the fact that you're about to be enculfed in flame. Fire damage unchanged.
...even though you also have resistance to being engulfed in flames (AoE resist)?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
...even though you also have resistance to being engulfed in flames (AoE resist)?
That would be "result" damage not AoE. Melee/Ranged/AoE, though they all very in distance, they ALL are incoming attacks. Something that applies to you AFTER impact is non of those 3. Does an SR check for ranged damage, THEN check for AoE (engulf) damage from fire. No, it doesn't. The why would positional resistance?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Accuracy and damage buffs are calculated at the start of the attack (for example, Knockout Blow will do full damage even if Rage crashes halfway through the cast), but resistances are applied when damage is dealt. You can see this when, for example, a Paragon Protector uses Unstoppable partway through your finishing attack.
Then indeed, I had a faulty understanding of the system, and as such, my proposed framework doesn't work. I concede defeat. However, allow me to adress your other points for completeness' sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Your pseudocode example doesn't match up with the explanation you've given. The pseudocode has a separate variable for positional resist, and adds it to the typed resist if applicable to find the total resist value it should use, which I thought is what we're trying to avoid? There's no temporary resist boosting going on at all in the example you wrote.
What I was trying to avoid was a resistance that would get applied to vectors all the time, as a separate value from Type resist the way Positional defense and typed defense are separate. Of course there has to be a record somewhere of the resist value a positional shield gives you, but it has no effect APPART from an addendum to a typed resistance - which I think is the exact definition of a temporary resist. I tried to set it up so that even though your power description said you had 20% resist to melee, it only existed within the code as a +20% applied to your resistance to a given attack at the moment of resolution. Hence, no need to change existing powers, IO sets, etc. But yeah, it has to exist SOMEWHERE in the code, which I tried to represent by this variable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
A similar pseudocode writeup of the current system would have no MeleeResist variable (presumably fetched from the target's attributes, meaning it would have to be a combat attribute, meaning you need to add a MeleeResist stat), and no tempSmashResist to calculate. It would fetch smashResist and use it directly.
Of course. There had to be a variable. But in that way it only had to appear in the code during damage resolution, not in every resist power in the game. There would be an attribute window listing those. For almost everyone it would say 0% the way it lists positional defense at 0% on an Elec Scrapper. There would be steps in the damage calculation parts that would involve those variables if and only if a power granting them was involved. But for every power in the game right now, there would be no need to add anything. Tough would not need to be rewritten to say it adds "0% Melee resist". A sonic Haven would not need to say anything about it. Powers that debuff resistance (as far as I know they all do so across the resistance board) would debuff after the boost had been applied in my pseudocode.

It's frustrating, because it seems obvious to me but I clearly fail at making it so to others. I tried to make it so it would get the effect sought while requiring little to no modification of, say, 97% of the game code. But I relied on two things - immediate damage calculations (which you just proved to me were wrong) and whole damage calculations (ie no DoT). I agree that I made a mistake in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Also note

should be a min(), not a max(). And presumably the 90 is replaced by the appropriate value for other ATs?
My bad on the "max", you're right. And yes, of course, I'm sure there is an "ATresCap" value somewhere that would go there instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Does Full Auto check tohit for each tick? I don't have an Assault Rifle character so I don't know about that specific power, but I know other multi-hit powers like Hail of Bullets use a single tohit check.
I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure FA can Scourge on some ticks and not others, but I can't say for sure if it means each tick is a separate hit. I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
As far as the game engine is concerned, I don't know of any distinction between primary and secondary effects/damage types. Fire Sword is both a lethal attack and a fire attack, neither is the primary or secondary type. Occasionally an attack's flags don't match its damage types - for example, Fire Ball does part smashing damage, but is only flagged Fire and AoE - but that's a different thing. Levitate, for example, is flagged Psi but does only Smashing damage.
You're right. I hadn't noticed the flag discrepancy in Levitate. It seems extremely weird to me that it would be flagged a different type than what it deals. I guess I can understand why in hasn't got a positional flag, but the type flag baffles me.

 

Posted

Twigman, while I (think I) understand what you're trying to say, I believe you're confusing the issue. SR on a fireball does check for AoE defense, and my system would have checked AoE resist. Whether it's fire or other would have had no bearing on either type of mitigation, neither does the fact that it's flying at you before it explodes. And you're also mixing up DoT and dual-type attacks, I think.

 

Posted

Anyhow, after much (very interesting) debate, the idea has been proven to be faulty. I wanna thank everyone who replied for the feedback and arguments, I learned new things and actually had a good time. Maybe someone will come up with a way to make this work one day where I couldn't. If anyone wanna talk about it further, feel free to PM me.

Is there a way to close a thread here?

 

Posted

I think I finally do understand what you're trying to say here, "mechanically".

Right now, as was mentioned, attacks do the following things. A.) Check a set of defensive flags to see if it hits. IF it does hit, then B.) it checks how much type of dmg it does multiplied by your resistance to each dmg type. As far as I'm aware, once the game decides if it's hit you or not, it doesn't care about the defensive flags anymore, only the resist numbers.

What you're saying is this. A.) Check a set of defensive flags to see if it hits. IF it does hit then B.) Check a new set of flags (vector) to see which of your armor set(s) the dmg has to go through before C.) check how much dmg it does against those particular armors that have the normal typed resistances that already exist in game. D.) then apply the damage on the character based on those results.

Instead of having one set of resistance values for a character, your set idea you'd have 4 sets of resistance values. One set of S/L/E/N/P/Tox each for Melee, Ranged, AoE and none vectored attacks. Just a few added steps to the calculations

Logically, the idea still doesn't make sense from my perspective. I'm not sure you'd be able to change that.

Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netphenix5 View Post
Of course there has to be a record somewhere of the resist value a positional shield gives you, but it has no effect APPART from an addendum to a typed resistance - which I think is the exact definition of a temporary resist. I tried to set it up so that even though your power description said you had 20% resist to melee, it only existed within the code as a +20% applied to your resistance to a given attack at the moment of resolution. Hence, no need to change existing powers, IO sets, etc. But yeah, it has to exist SOMEWHERE in the code, which I tried to represent by this variable.
Fair enough. When you said a temporary resist boost I was thinking of something like this:
Attack fires, and says "Imma hit you with melee damage in 1 second!"
At t=0.9s, your melee resist toggle applies a res buff.
At t=1s, the damage hits, and the toggle's resistance reduces the damage.
At t=1.1s, the toggle's resist boost expires.
...which would create lots of problems with timing the resist boost correctly, as well as any attack that lands between .9 and 1.1 being mitigated even if it shouldn't be, and if an AoE attack is landing at the same time, its resist boost would go off too, and you'd get twice the resistance against both attacks. So, just a whole can of worms.

Anyway, although it isn't workable without new mechanics, a lot of recent power sets have had new mechanics - disintegration, acceleration, combo levels, Momentum - so this one isn't totally a pipe dream, depending on how hard exactly it would be to implement (this is where the SCR comes in).

I don't think anyone except a moderator can close a thread, it'll just drop off the front page once people run out of things to say. And then if somebody at Paragon codes a positional resist power at some point, you can necro it up and post "I told you so!"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netphenix5 View Post
Twigman, while I (think I) understand what you're trying to say, I believe you're confusing the issue. SR on a fireball does check for AoE defense, and my system would have checked AoE resist. Whether it's fire or other would have had no bearing on either type of mitigation, neither does the fact that it's flying at you before it explodes. And you're also mixing up DoT and dual-type attacks, I think.

I'm acually not confusing the issue. I just used wrong terminology per this game. So, here's the correction. "Flares" is thrown at you, due to ranged resistance the flare is slowed thus reducing smashing damage upon impact: however, the fire is already past your armor/aura and WILL effect you at full damage seeing that it is not an attack of it's own and has no positional value to check, and you have no fire resistance.

clearer?

 

Posted

Flares actually does no smashing damage, only fire. But even if it did, why can't we just have the toggle apply itself to both smashing and fire? Chi Defense, as presented in the first post, is not an armor or aura that slows projectiles. It "toughen[s] your body against incoming blows".

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Flares actually does no smashing damage, only fire. But even if it did, why can't we just have the toggle apply itself to both smashing and fire? Chi Defense, as presented in the first post, is not an armor or aura that slows projectiles. It "toughen[s] your body against incoming blows".
Insert ranged S/F damage power here ____. You are hit with ____, which does smashing damage, fire damage, and fire DOT. the smashing damage is a result of the ranged attack, the fire is a result of the smashing, and the DOT is a result of the fire damage. Therefore the only damage that can be resisted by ranged resistance is the smashing.

I'm not going to debate the point anymore, if you still don't believe be that this is the way it works, do an expirament. record a water balloon hitting a wall, then watch it in slow motion. Then ask yourself, Is the wall wet prior, during, or after the water balloon smashes into it.

 

Posted

Who cares about the realism of it? We're talking about somebody who can channel chi energy so well that they can shrug off bullets. Arguing the realism of it is totally futile.

In the GAME, the chain of causes you listed does not hold. The smashing, fire, and DoT are all directly the result of the attack, not each other.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
Who cares about the realism of it? We're talking about somebody who can channel chi energy so well that they can shrug off bullets. Arguing the realism of it is totally futile.

In the GAME, the chain of causes you listed does not hold. The smashing, fire, and DoT are all directly the result of the attack, not each other.
OH ... thought you read my comment about "That might be how the game works, but it should be like this ..."

Anyway, I guess you win. Though I wasn't disputing how the game worked. :P

Could you give some REAL constructive thoughts on My rage defense and Psy aura (should be posted tonight) set Hopeling. I would like to be able to make it game worthy and need to know what's over and under powered. If you want to.

 

Posted

I'm disputing that the game "should" be more realistic to the detriment of gameplay. But anyway, I'll take another look at Rage Defense.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeling View Post
I'm disputing that the game "should" be more realistic to the detriment of gameplay. But anyway, I'll take another look at Rage Defense.
The problem with being more realistic is, We would all die so fast ... I know I wouldn't play it. I play to escape the way things really work.

But, perhaps you can explain where you want to go with "more realistic". Make a thread about it, I'll read and reply on it