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Does that factor in redraw?
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
But, there's a better attack chain for Brutes since they get Gloom.
Follow-Up -> Focus -> Strike -> Gloom (Strike is used for the faster animation time. It has the same base DPA as Slash, according to Mids.) Brute with 75 Fury: 905.98 damage, 180.61 DPS Brute with 100 Fury: 1016.71 damage, 202.69 DPS |
My Claws/WP brute is the fastest, most-survivable, least-prone-to-dying, and easily the easiest-to-level character I've ever played.
Seriously. Playing Claws/WP on a brute is sex without the angst.
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Ahahaha. Claws is the only attack set I have EVER PLAYED that wasn't a storm of misses with massive gaps in the attack chain between level 10 and level 20. I didn't even update to DOs until level 17 because I forgot.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Bill (and everyone else),
When you say Claws is better on a Brute, is that at ALL recharge levels and/or throughout normal gameplay when you are just cruising on generics? Or is it endgame when you may have a ton of global recharge and etc? Or is the (slight) advantage at all levels and all price points?  Lewis |
I didn't need them.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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Adding gloom to a claws chain will decrease the DPS of the chain due to redraw. No way around that.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Does that factor in redraw?
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But in my posts the last few days regarding brute/scrapper damage output, I have been completely neglecting the impact of gloom on sets where it won't cause redraw.
I'm not sure that I'm up to the task of reworking all my old spreadsheets but here's what I suspect:
Claws: Brute still wins even with FU only buffing 30% on brutes versus 37.5% on scrappers. I'll at least redo the numbers this weekend on claws since I love 'em so.
Fire: Due to Fire's DoT NOT being effected by crits while it is affected by fury means that brute fire is going to win. Especially when you add gloom to the mix.
Dark: Dudes... based on the Rikti Pylon threads, scrappers win... but honestly, I don't recall if there were any cranked to the walls DM brutes with Gloom out there. Gloom is SO damn good, it might pull the brute ahead.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Please post it when you do, I'm interested in those results.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Claws: Brute still wins even with FU only buffing 30% on brutes versus 37.5% on scrappers. I'll at least redo the numbers this weekend on claws since I love 'em so.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Fire: Due to Fire's DoT NOT being effected by crits while it is affected by fury means that brute fire is going to win. Especially when you add gloom to the mix.
Dark: Dudes... based on the Rikti Pylon threads, scrappers win... but honestly, I don't recall if there were any cranked to the walls DM brutes with Gloom out there. Gloom is SO damn good, it might pull the brute ahead. |
The conclusion is that the Brute, once SD+AAO is brought into the combination has absolutely no chance of keeping up with the Scrapper.
This is on seamless, top end attack chains using Gloom.
Gloom is amazing, but it simply can not touch what AAO does for the Scrapper.
Its actually something I consider to be heavily unbalanced in favor of the Scrapper.
Scrappers should be doing more damage, and Brutes should be more survivable - but there needs to be a balance point of "how much more damage" vs. "how much more survivable".
The Brute ends up with the normal extra 12% HP or so (guesstimating) but the Scrapper ends up with something like a 20% to 25% DPS advantage. (My Pylon results were in the 240 range for both builds, and most similar Scraps end up in the 285-300 range).
On top of that, Scrapper SC is also wildly stronger than the brute version and I think hits for like 400-450 (need confirmation here) vs. the Brutes cap of around 280-300. if it is 450, that's 50% more damage per usage.
So FM is in the exact same boat as DM for Brutes.
If you add SD into the mix, the crits vs. fury + DoTs becomes irrelevant due to how much better AAO is on the Scrapper as it provides both a higher Damage bonus as well as simply giving the Scrapper more benefit due to their higher melee scalar.
I don't think Brutes should get the Tanker numbers for AAO when they get the Scrapper numbers for DEF & RES, but they do.
I also think the Brute version of SC got nerfed too much when it was the Scrapper version that was breaking 700-800 damage per use.
They both needed a nerf, but I don't think the pseudopet issues and how they interact with fury were taken into account and instead a low scalar was simply slapped onto the Brute version and the devs called it a day.
As for Brute FM/non-SD vs. Scrap FM/non-SD, I'm not sure where the two stand against each other.
The same goes for Brute DM vs. Scrap DM - all of the top times, IIRC, for Scrap DM are DM/SD which will always favor the Scrapper.
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I forgot about redraw. I haven't seen any solid numbers on it, so I don't know how redraw affects things.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Does that factor in redraw?
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Slightly off topic, but I currently have a level 35 Claws/Inv, but was wondering if /wp is better? I don't think it will matter too much, but I'm worried about end late game. I do plan on taking energy mastery for some End love.
One thing about /wp is that I believe I could toggle tactics for more of a chance for build up.
Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by AF_Bill
Slightly off topic, but I currently have a level 35 Claws/Inv, but was wondering if /wp is better? I don't think it will matter too much, but I'm worried about end late game. I do plan on taking energy mastery for some End love.
One thing about /wp is that I believe I could toggle tactics for more of a chance for build up. Thoughts? |
Claws will incur redraw, so you will probably be skipping a patron pool for more attacks.
In which case you can grab energy, which is great for Invuln.
Invuln and WP can both be built to be very hard to kill, they excel in some different situations against each other.
Tactics adds 7% to hit at base, but costs a truckload of END to run.
Invincibility adds 2% to hit per enemy within 8ft up to a maximum of 10 enemies.
So I think you can stick with Invuln with no worries, tuck a kismet in one of your DEF toggles if you want a little extra to hit.
The GSFC Chance for BU will be better in Follow Up than in tactics.
Both are good choices.
Thanks for the notes and advice!
I'm surprised by how many responses have supported the Brute without giving any real numbers to back it up. Typically, powersets with permanent or near-permanent damage buffs cause the Scrapper to do more damage.
For these calculations, I made builds with only three damage IOs in the attacks. Follow-Up is double-stacked in Mids. Triple-stacking is possible for a brief time but Mids doesn't allow it, and I want to keep the calculations simple. Also, the animation time for Brute Follow-Up is incorrect in Mids and it should be the same as Scrappers.
Follow-Up -> Focus -> Slash attack chain
Scrapper: 662.04 damage, 167.18 DPS
Brute with 75 Fury: 646.63 damage, 163.29 DPS
Brute with 100 Fury (not sustainable in most situations): 725.68 damage, 183.25 DPS
But, there's a better attack chain for Brutes since they get Gloom.
Follow-Up -> Focus -> Strike -> Gloom (Strike is used for the faster animation time. It has the same base DPA as Slash, according to Mids.)
Brute with 75 Fury: 905.98 damage, 180.61 DPS
Brute with 100 Fury: 1016.71 damage, 202.69 DPS
So, Claws is the rare case where Brutes perform better DPS in an average situation with a powerset that gives a permanent damage buff.