I think it should be a perma-pet, although I could live with a 4 minute duration (I think Dark Servant and Voltaic Sentinel should be perma as well, though; only Warshade pets should have an expiration). If we keep it as a pet that expires, then it should have a longer duration, but possibly a longer recharge as well. Something where you could reasonably keep out two of them and maybe a third (150 second duration, 180 second recharge for example).
I like the idea of giving it one or two more actions. Web Grenade, Taser, maybe a small Flamethrower effect (since we apparently can't make it not go melee anyway).
The cast time should be reduced dramatically, its current cast time is, frankly, terrible design for this game. The end cost should be reduced dramatically, its current end cost is, frankly, terrible design for this game.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Persoanlly I'd say just decrease the cast time to ~2 seconds (non-interruptable). I don't think the Drone itself needs anything other than an AI fix (DO NOT GO INTO MELEE!).
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No other traditional pet can have more than one copy of itself out at once. Why would they break that rule for Gun Drone?
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
but possibly a longer recharge as well. Something where you could reasonably keep out two of them and maybe a third (150 second duration, 180 second recharge for example).
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You can already have 2 gun drones out.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
No other traditional pet can have more than one copy of itself out at once. Why would they break that rule for Gun Drone?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Huh. I highly doubt they'd continue to allow that if they added debuffing capabilities to it, however.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You can already have 2 gun drones out.
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Personally, I don't think the Gun Drone needs to do more. It just needs to suck less. As such, I have four suggestions, any three of which should be enough to make the power taking:
1. Slash the cast down to no more than 2 seconds
2. Cut the summon cost down to no more than 25
3. Up the duration to at least 3 or 4 minutes
4. Make it uninterruptible
I'm a firm believer that powers don't have to AMAZING in order for them to be my favourites. What they have to be is "worth" using. Excessively situational powers, excessively cumbersome ones or excessively penalised one are not fun regardless of what they actually do. "Too awesome to use" is rarely good game design.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What Sam said. Same as Timebomb; just make it suck less.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yeah. Heck, for Time Bomb I'd say replace it with an Omega Maneuver clone. Sure, Omega Maneuver is not exactly a hugely popular power either but at least it's fun to use.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What Sam said. Same as Timebomb; just make it suck less.
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I'll tolerate low effectiveness in a power if it's fun to use.
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I would normally agree, but Gun Drone is the Tier 9 of the set. Even if they made it not suck, it would still just randomly spam Chain Gun around and not really get a lot done. In fact, I'm pretty sure even if you improved the end/recharge/cast time, Voltaic Sentinel would potentially be the better power of the two. In other words, Gun Drone still wouldn't be worth using for me.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm a firm believer that powers don't have to AMAZING in order for them to be my favourites. What they have to be is "worth" using. Excessively situational powers, excessively cumbersome ones or excessively penalised one are not fun regardless of what they actually do. "Too awesome to use" is rarely good game design.
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Also, Too Awesome To Use really mostly applies to things that have some sort of finite use (such as Inspirations, to an extent). I'm not clear how that applies to any version of Gun Drone, theoretical or not.
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Let it keep burst.
And give it Full Auto.
Problem solved. It can fire quickly at single targets and debuff defence....and then barrage a whole mob.
Or add in Heavy Burst. Something to make it a little more impressive.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Actually it doesn't attack with burst, it uses the NPC exclusive power 'Chaingun', also used by Longbow chasers and Sky Skiffs.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Let it keep burst.
And give it Full Auto. Problem solved. It can fire quickly at single targets and debuff defence....and then barrage a whole mob. Or add in Heavy Burst. Something to make it a little more impressive. |
So we might even be able to make it decently impressive if we just let it have burst too. Though I'm not a good person to ask on how to improve gun drone, I'd probably just turn it into a TF2 Sentry.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I tend to see Gun Drone as a damage aura that doesn't require the Blaster to actually be in melee range. It adds a not insignificant amount of damage, and it's a pretty tough bugger, too. Yeah, it can't really serve as a tank, but it can help out.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I would normally agree, but Gun Drone is the Tier 9 of the set. Even if they made it not suck, it would still just randomly spam Chain Gun around and not really get a lot done. In fact, I'm pretty sure even if you improved the end/recharge/cast time, Voltaic Sentinel would potentially be the better power of the two. In other words, Gun Drone still wouldn't be worth using for me.
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More than anything, though, look at something like Regen's T9 power. Moment of Glory is a very strong buff, but it only lasts 20 seconds. "Defence Build Up," they call it. If the power had a 1000 second recharge, cost 50 points to activate and needed 7 seconds of interruptible animation, that power would be complete garbage. Instead, it costs 2.6 points of endurance and recharges in just 240 seconds. It's not something that will make you an unstoppable god capable of outlasting an AV, but its cost is low enough to where it doesn't matter, and you can still use it anyway.
Or look at your typical Blaster conundrum between proper nukes and mini-nukes. You have fans for both sides, but there's no denying that mini-nukes are popular and that they see a LOT more use. People don't feel cheated because they got Full Auto or Rain of Arrows or Hail of Bullets, because those are solid powers at not too great a cost. Gun Drone could be that kind of power - not very amazing, but pretty cheap, too.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Also, Too Awesome To Use really mostly applies to things that have some sort of finite use (such as Inspirations, to an extent). I'm not clear how that applies to any version of Gun Drone, theoretical or not.
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How this applies to Gun Drone is that, at the current stats of the actual gun drone, it's a pretty solid power. You have a strong pet with consistent damage. Hell, if I could, I'd keep one out all the time. But I can't. I can't because the Drone costs a hell of a lot more to summon than it's actually worth, I can't because the thing dies way too fast, I can't because I'm afraid of being interrupted and wasting my endurance, as for some strange reason the game drains endurance BEFORE the power activates. Making the Gun Drone have an opportunity cost of 0, or at the very least having a much lower opportunity cost altogether, would make it a very solid power that I don't have a laundry list of reasons for not using.
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With all of that said, I'm not against improving the drone. Far from it. However, I'd be much happier with a decrease in the power's cost, rather than an increase in the power's performance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm undecided if Regen is a bad example to use or a great one.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
More than anything, though, look at something like Regen's T9 power. Moment of Glory is a very strong buff, but it only lasts 20 seconds. "Defence Build Up," they call it. If the power had a 1000 second recharge, cost 50 points to activate and needed 7 seconds of interruptible animation, that power would be complete garbage. Instead, it costs 2.6 points of endurance and recharges in just 240 seconds. It's not something that will make you an unstoppable god capable of outlasting an AV, but its cost is low enough to where it doesn't matter, and you can still use it anyway.
Or look at your typical Blaster conundrum between proper nukes and mini-nukes. You have fans for both sides, but there's no denying that mini-nukes are popular and that they see a LOT more use. People don't feel cheated because they got Full Auto or Rain of Arrows or Hail of Bullets, because those are solid powers at not too great a cost. Gun Drone could be that kind of power - not very amazing, but pretty cheap, too. |
Keep in mind that Regen has been through so many revisions that it simply doesn't follow traditional set design anymore. Instant Healing became the set's true god-mode along the way and Moment of Glory used to be the Tier 9 that actually reduced your survivability, and simply had to be changed into something that wasn't absurd and broken.
On the other hand, if you convinced me that Time Bomb was Device's true Tier 9 (and after examining the numbers on it, I'm not really clear why it's quite so loathed), I might change my tune.
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| I tend to see Gun Drone as a damage aura that doesn't require the Blaster to actually be in melee range. It adds a not insignificant amount of damage, and it's a pretty tough bugger, too. Yeah, it can't really serve as a tank, but it can help out. |
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| How this applies to Gun Drone is that, at the current stats of the actual gun drone, it's a pretty solid power. You have a strong pet with consistent damage. Hell, if I could, I'd keep one out all the time. But I can't. I can't because the Drone costs a hell of a lot more to summon than it's actually worth, I can't because the thing dies way too fast, I can't because I'm afraid of being interrupted and wasting my endurance, as for some strange reason the game drains endurance BEFORE the power activates. Making the Gun Drone have an opportunity cost of 0, or at the very least having a much lower opportunity cost altogether, would make it a very solid power that I don't have a laundry list of reasons for not using. |
There's also the tangle that "Too Awesome To Use" is more about expectations and lack of fore-knowledge of the game ahead. It's about holding onto your I Win Button as you weather fight after fight, because surely you'll really need it later on down the line and yet that situation never comes. Have you ever actually said to yourself "I better not summon Gun Drone right now, I'll need it later."?
I don't disagree with your points really at all, just the misuse of a trope.
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| With all of that said, I'm not against improving the drone. Far from it. However, I'd be much happier with a decrease in the power's cost, rather than an increase in the power's performance. |
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But you don't play blasters... |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
With all of that said, I'm not against improving the drone. Far from it. However, I'd be much happier with a decrease in the power's cost, rather than an increase in the power's performance.
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Because they perform too low...
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Or...let it go into melee -- but put a big damn bayonet on it.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't think the Drone itself needs anything other than an AI fix (DO NOT GO INTO MELEE!).
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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Time Bomb as it stands right now is garbage. Whoever designed it was SO AFRAID that anyone would actually, you know, use the power that he decided to kneecap its utility so bad that what is ostensibly an AWESOME power has been reduced to a power you can almost never use, and in the chances you get to use it, you're better off using Trip Mine anyway. If Time Bomb's usability issues are fixed, then the power would very easily become the set's true T9, because it's a power with shy of a nuke's damage that doesn't drain you completely.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I'm undecided if Regen is a bad example to use or a great one.
Keep in mind that Regen has been through so many revisions that it simply doesn't follow traditional set design anymore. Instant Healing became the set's true god-mode along the way and Moment of Glory used to be the Tier 9 that actually reduced your survivability, and simply had to be changed into something that wasn't absurd and broken. On the other hand, if you convinced me that Time Bomb was Device's true Tier 9 (and after examining the numbers on it, I'm not really clear why it's quite so loathed), I might change my tune. |
I went out of my way and did more than most to try and salvage Time Bomb and use it for SOMETHING, and yet all the time I felt like I was cheating myself when doing so. It's just badly designed. Redoing it into something akin to Omega Manoeuvre would be nice.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Gun Drone is a tough bugger, but also dies too fast? Sorry, that contradiction jumped out at me.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
There's also the tangle that "Too Awesome To Use" is more about expectations and lack of fore-knowledge of the game ahead. It's about holding onto your I Win Button as you weather fight after fight, because surely you'll really need it later on down the line and yet that situation never comes. Have you ever actually said to yourself "I better not summon Gun Drone right now, I'll need it later."?
I don't disagree with your points really at all, just the misuse of a trope. |
Again, I wouldn't be opposed to making Gun Drone not suck, but I want to focus on making it less costly to use first and foremost.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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90 seconds, actually. But yes, it's quite annoying. Not sure which is more annoying - resummoning Gun Drone or Voltaic Sentinel.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I misspoke. It's hard to kill, but it TIMES OUT too fast. The pet only has a 60-second life span, which means I can only ever really use it for one fight, two if I hurry. I simply have to spend that absurd amount of endurance very often if I want to get any mileage out of the power.
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You're offering solutions to make the power more awesome while keeping much of its current cost, that's what I'm referring to. At the opportunity cost that Gun Drone has right now, I'd expect it to be WICKED AWESOME! The problem is that if it were that, then it would simply become too awesome to use, and I'm not a fan of that. Again - I'd rather have a mediocre power at a mediocre cost than a huge power at a huge cost. Again, I wouldn't be opposed to making Gun Drone not suck, but I want to focus on making it less costly to use first and foremost. |
That's pretty close to what I suggested for Gun Drone, excepting the recharge/duration, which I suggested as I did to slightly restrict slotting options. I wouldn't be opposed to bumping the duration up a bit, however.
(Your first example comes close to Too Awesome To Use, but as long as Gun Drone is perma-able and the costs are tolerable, it still really doesn't apply...)
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Quick point -
Unless I am remembering incorrectly, doesn't the Gun Drone move very slowly? Would you really want it to be perma in that case?
Still, looking at it... it needs to be summoned faster, and it needs to either cost much less endurance, or do more damage when it is out, to make it worth the current End Cost.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
I love this pet when it was the auto turret back in the day and I like it now that its a drone even more. It already is an awesome pet.
BUT
They need to remove that stupidly long activation timer and make it instant cast much like alot of other traps and devices; time bomb and trip mine also need reduced activation times.
I don't want it be a perma pet though because then you wouldn't be able to have 2 or more at once like you currently can with high recharge builds.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
...And also worth some of its flaws.
Right now, what you get in return for spending 39 endurance and a 7 second activation time (which is interruptable) is...lacking. It feels like Gun Drone (and formerly Auto Turret) was balanced around the idea that it could possibly draw aggro away from the Blaster who summoned it, which in the old balance metrics was probably not just a bad thing, it was cause for Defcon 1. (This is also likely why Voltaic Sentinel is untargetable and defers all aggro the Blaster.)
Nowadays, Blasters get access to far more powerful pets from the Incarnate system, not to mention the veteran buff pets with their amazing taunt aura. Plus the likelihood of Auto Turret actually out-aggroing a Blaster was always pretty low to begin with.
I think instead of turning it into some kind of offensive juggernaut, they should turn Gun Drone into the Dark Servant of Devices. What do I mean? Give Gun Drone the ability to fire: Web Grenades, Smoke Grenades, and use Taser. Possibly even let it deploy Caltrops and use Cloaking Device, but that may be overdoing it. Point is, if you make it into a mini-Devices user, I'd be chomping at the bit to keep it active.
As part of this, also reduce its activation time slightly (5~ seconds), reduce its endurance cost slightly (25-30 end), reduce its recharge time slightly (enough so that two SOs make it perma, perhaps?), and reduce its Defiance bonus significantly.
What do you think, Sirs?
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