If you are going with all claw attacks for concept reason, I think Follow Up is better than Build Up (I call it Blood Widow build). You can stack more +dmg on yourself and just rely on Spin and Eviscerate.
Eviscerate hits pretty hard as a cone attack. Its cone arc is pretty wide.
If you team a lot, I am sure other people have aoe too. Sometimes you just need to run in and focus on a few targets at a time.
You have options for AoE. Dart Burst is a typical one. You just need to run back and forth a bit. Scream is good too and it debuffs -recharge. If you don't want cone aoe, then most people take Soul Mastery's AoE attack. It's faster but recharge is long.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I had both eviscerate and spin for a while on my build, and they work wonders paired together. However, I just recently dropped eviscerate from it for a few reasons: first being that since it's a cone it meant I'd have to do a lot of repositioning during combat (I'm lazy!), second being that spin + evis takes a good chunk of endurance and on my perma-hasten build it just cost too much to spam.
Don't get me wrong, eviscerate is a killer attack and I am thinking about trying to reincorporate somehow w/o having to use the cardiac alpha (I went the muscular route). It hits so hard that it can be used as a single target attack (it is the second hardest hitting attack available to NWs, even before considering multiple targets). Luckily for me, spin is just bad*ss ennough where it can carry my build's AE requirements for the moment.
Also, to support Jibikao's position, followup IMO is what makes a NW a NW. Double assault + double stacked FU = a contant + 90 damage in your chain. It makes for a killer dps combo (I just cracked a 6min 55 sec pylon time with it in my build, something I couldn't do using build up). It just takes a few seconds to work up to the damage is all. I leave the burst of build up to my banes and stalkers, and let the widow have the DPS bragging rights with follow up =D.
I'm not taking all claw attacks, they just generally happen to be the best ones available for Night Widows. I take Build Up because it synergizes so well with mask presence's crit capability--I've tried both, since I take Follow up while leveling before the respec, but tend to prefer build up. I'm not really sure which is better from a dps perspective, likely follow up, but ehh. I'm not inclined to use follow up unless it's shown to be a huge difference in sustained dps.
So most people also do double assault? I plan to take the widow assault power but not the pool assault as well. It also seems a bit crazy that you're only at 7 minutes for soloing a pylon--I expected much better from a NW..
Thanks, though, you two! Pretty sure I'll be dropping Eviscerate at this point, but not sure if I want to replace it with another AoE, or drop it altogether. I could potentially get double assault in that case, and have five more slots to put into other powers..
I think it's best to consider Eviscerate a single target attack that can sometimes hit bonus enemies, than consider it a reliable AoE attack.
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I run double assault only because it meshes so well with follow up. Also, I've gotten pylon runs down to 4:57, but to do so required running the recovery serum temp due to the spamming of shatter armor (which I only have one slotted with a Hecatomb 53% damage IO). At almost 18 end per usage I run out of juice quick if I spam it, so it's usually reserved for robot bosses or EB+ mobs. The 6:55 time is with maintianing the end to keep it going w/o outside help. Either way, it's 240-260 DPS between the two, which is DM/FM shield scrapper territory. Not too shabby.|
Originally Posted by Stolid
So most people also do double assault? I plan to take the widow assault power but not the pool assault as well. It also seems a bit crazy that you're only at 7 minutes for soloing a pylon--I expected much better from a NW....
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As for the "best" NW attacks, I think you have the bases covered. Strike, lunge and slash are all monsterous attacks. I took swipe over strike only because there was a slight gap in my FU/slash/lunge/strike/FU/ strike/lunge/slash routine, and it was due to strike having about a 1/2 sec too long recharge for the chain. I swapped it for swipe and now it works flawlessly. I think I have figured out a solution for strike's gap though, gonna have to head to test next weekend and find out. If it works out, Pylon #17 better be on its toes...
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From dps perspective, Follow Up is a lot better but from "assassin" point of view, Build Up is better. If you prefer BU + critical Spin, then keep it. It fits the assassin theme really well. |
Originally Posted by Stolid
I'm not taking all claw attacks, they just generally happen to be the best ones available for Night Widows. I take Build Up because it synergizes so well with mask presence's crit capability--I've tried both, since I take Follow up while leveling before the respec, but tend to prefer build up. I'm not really sure which is better from a dps perspective, likely follow up, but ehh. I'm not inclined to use follow up unless it's shown to be a huge difference in sustained dps.
So most people also do double assault? I plan to take the widow assault power but not the pool assault as well. It also seems a bit crazy that you're only at 7 minutes for soloing a pylon--I expected much better from a NW.. |
If you want more dps, you can drop Eviscerate and get double Assault.
Double Assault and double Manevuer is what makes SoA so good on a team. However, the endurance cost is also very high and that's what Cardiac is good for. Cardiac is AMAZING.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Do any of you happen to use something other than a Cardiac Alpha? I know it's good at all, but it also seems like the Musculature alpha would be great (the very rare being equitable to running double assault, minus the end cost), and I was thinking of doing that.
I also decided to go another way with things: Drop Strike and Eviscerate, pick up Gloom and Dark Obliteration in their places. Gives me three ranged attacks (two single target + DO), four single target and two good AoEs, a bit more versatility for hami or what have you.
Anywho, thanks for the feedback and insights!
With Muscle you will have end problems even with the end mod because your attacks still cost the same end. Cardio is really the only way to go since it reduces end cost of all powers. If you are running double assult and follow up you will be doing plenty of damage.
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Here is my take. |
Originally Posted by Stolid
Do any of you happen to use something other than a Cardiac Alpha? I know it's good at all, but it also seems like the Musculature alpha would be great (the very rare being equitable to running double assault, minus the end cost), and I was thinking of doing that.
I also decided to go another way with things: Drop Strike and Eviscerate, pick up Gloom and Dark Obliteration in their places. Gives me three ranged attacks (two single target + DO), four single target and two good AoEs, a bit more versatility for hami or what have you. Anywho, thanks for the feedback and insights! |
1. Most lvl 50s already have sets and the typical sets like Thunderstrike and Positron already push +damage so high that Muscle will not make obvious difference.
2. I am going to experiment Muscle but for me to take Muscle, it has to be an AT with at least 1.00 damage scale (which applies to SoA and Stalker) and I won't push +damage % so high (no full set of Thunderstrike). This means my choice will be adding Proc damage/effects to the attacks and let Muscle push damage % closer to 99%. The only AT that makes sense to me is Stalker so far. SoA has too many useful toggles that cost a lot of endurance and Corr gets better use of +defense from a full Thunderstrike and +recharge for secondary powers.
3. Inspiration Usage is extremely important in this game. Of all the inspirations, Blue feels like the weakest to me because it only adds 25 (small) and if your build doesn't have a lot of -end, that 25 won't even last more than 10s. Other inspirs like Red (damage), Purple (defense) and Orange (resistance) all last 60s. So, if you really want that extra damage from Muscle, you are probably better off carrying more Reds (and way less Blue) and use Cardiac to negate most endurance problem.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I am using muscular core paragon (45% damage with 2/3 passing ED) and have no endurance issues, but I had none before alphas too. I -can- run out of end if I spam the wrong attacks (like shatter armor, which costs 18 end and I have no end reducers in it), but the chain I typically use I can solo pylons without end woes.|
Originally Posted by Stolid
Do any of you happen to use something other than a Cardiac Alpha? I know it's good at all, but it also seems like the Musculature alpha would be great (the very rare being equitable to running double assault, minus the end cost), and I was thinking of doing that
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If you chose this route, you need to build for it. I only employ two "heavy" endurance attacks in my chain, spin at 15.44 end and slash at 14.25. Both are 6 slotted, five slots for IO sets and that 6th for a lvl 50 end reducer, which puts them at 96%+ end reduction. Lunge, FU and tough are @ 78% end reduction, and MP/ TT:M @ 58%. The other two toggles I run are leadership:assault w/ two 50 end reducers and TT: assault with one.
With the level shift and the 45% damage alpha I can shred most critters with just FU/strike/lunge/spin. I utilize slash primarily for taking down bosses or one-shoting pesky mobs out of hide (like malta sappers). Running an endurance friendly widow is completely possible, but you need to understand how to slot for it/ not to spam the end heavy hitters like psy scream+ eviscerate + spin + dark obliteration every chain/ account for variables like hasten's crash/ etc. Also, having the +end accolades, the +end uniques, the PS proc and the "ultimate" end recovery bonuses from the purples sets helps big time.
Slotting Cardiac would of course solve most of your issues, and it makes good sense to go that route. I chose muscular because I know the limits of my build and can make it work. If I need more endurance (say to spam shatter armor on an AV battle) I have elude and the temp recovery serum on standby.
EDIT: BTW ---> muscular is pretty nice to have. It helped drop my pylon time from 9 minutes to under 7 minutes by itself. Also it is the only thing that will affect the upcoming Judgement slot's damage output, something to consider if you want to really bring the hurt.
Is there perhaps a compromise to be found in the Musculature Radial Paragon, by any chance? Anyone have experience with that one? It adds less damage, but would boost your recovery from stamina some to help with endurance issues (I got an additional .11 end/sec with it.. which is not a whole lot, but would take several +rech set bonuses to get).
Right now I'm looking at my build having roughly 3 end/sec gain over what the toggles drain, is that anywhere near where you're at, Person? I know some of this has to do with how much endred is in the attacks themselves, but I've slotted them all as best I can with endred while going for the set bonuses I was wanting (mostly +rech/+hp/+regen).
Also it really annoys me mindlink causes redraw, just as an aside. Seems so silly that it would. :/
I considered the Radial as well, but figured if my intent was to go over the ED cap I might as well go witht he 45% alpha over the 33%. I wanted as much damage as possible out of the deal, even if it meant a gain of only 4-5% from the core over the radial. I am probably in the minority with this idea because, as pointed out earlier, cardiac benefits widows on a much larger scale than muscular does. Muscular involves compromises that actually go against the problems that cardiac is suppost to solve. It really boils down to what can you live with: a slight edge in damage, or a considerable end discount?
I'm running slightly less end recovery than you (2.85) with 5 toggles running: MP, TT:M, tough, and double assaults. I have the PF proc in stamina, which helps. The key will be to make sure you have sufficient end reduction in your toggles and attacks. Slash, spin and dark obliteration together are about 50 endurance to cast... that's only 3 attacks! One reason why cardiac is such a game changer for widows.
BTW, just for comparison: slash's damage is 336 at 97% damage slotting. With Core muscular this becomes 391. If you add build up + double assaults it's 579.... before a crit (960ish I'll guess with crit vs a non resistant foe). As you can see, muscular does add some sting to your attacks. It's great to have and I love it, just remember tho that it is probably more of a "little icing on the cake" rather than the massive boon cardiac can become.
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It's good to see "numbers". My level shift Stalker actually uses Muscular but he hasn't got the 4th tier yet. I haven't really looked at his number before and after Muscular. I know it's higher but just don't know how much higher. I picked Muscular on Stalker because Stalker really just needs more damage. |
Originally Posted by Person34
BTW, just for comparison: slash's damage is 336 at 97% damage slotting. With Core muscular this becomes 391. If you add build up + double assaults it's 579.... before a crit (960ish I'll guess with crit vs a non resistant foe). As you can see, muscular does add some sting to your attacks. It's great to have and I love it, just remember tho that it is probably more of a "little icing on the cake" rather than the massive boon cardiac can become.
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If your Slash's damage jumps from 336 to 391, then that's a pretty big jump in the end. My Bane tried Muscular at first tier and first tier doesn't really do much and Bane has endurance problem because I carry a lot of toggles.
I am going to experiment Muscular on my Soldier build that uses proc damage. He'll be carrying less toggles I think.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Like you I play a ton of stalkers (have seven lvl 50s on Virtue alone), so taking the muscular route on my VEATs was a no-brainer. Yeah, widows have big endurance woes but it can be mostly worked around. Muscular allows me to sustain 225 DPS indefinitely, and with just a change to my attack sequence I can up this to 255 DPS for about 45 seconds vs. a single target with no lethal resists (longer if I pop elude/ blue insps/ activate recovery serum). And lets face it, if I can't kill a single mob in less than 45 seconds I'm prob in way over my head to begin with lol (<--- not considering things like pylons of course, but does include EBs).
Widows are a pure damage class in my mind's eye, which is why muscular was the only path for me to travel down. Life would be soooo much easier if I had taken cardiac instead, but widows are "easy mode" to begin with so I see endurance management as one of their few real challenges.
Just my take on it.
Just checked my Kinetic Stalker. Concentrated Strike's damage is about 53 higher with 3rd tier Muscular. I believe I used full Mako set.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
My original plan for my VEAT was to take Poison Dart, Strike, Lunge, Slash, Spin, and Eviscerate, to have both a solid ST attack chain and to have more than one AoE power.
But in practice, I'm not thrilled with Eviscerate as an AoE (although admittedly, I haven't slotted it yet, and I'm just judging its AoE potential by how many targets are usually hit by it--2 normally, 3 sometimes).
So the question to other players of Widows: Do you take more than one AoE power, and if so which ones? A Build Up + Spin out of hide is pretty great, but typically more than one AoE seems wise since I'm going to be teaming.