I'm way way WAY far from an expert, but I like to try to help. All of the following is IMO.
One thing that I see is that you don't have any slotting for Defense in your Enforcers. I think this can be really important. I can't get my Thugs/Poison to load in Mids right now (I think it's something with Bile Spray) but currently my Thugs all sit at around 40% DEF to everything. That's pretty good. When I respec I'm going to move some slots to Manuvers and that'll get me another percentage, pushing them to 41%. As you get closer to the cap even small additions add quite a lot of mitigation.
I think having two holds is very important, so I like that you did that.
You want to get Noxious Gas recharging as quickly as possible. That turns the Bruiser into a very good tank.
I think you've got some slots where I wouldn't put them. I don't think you need four in Stamina, or two END reducers in Assault, Upgrade Equip, and Equip. Are you having any endurance issues? On the other hand there's some really good slotting here that I will have to look at for my build. I really need to look into the pet purples and more into HO's.
I never knew you could put a LotG recharge in Vengeance! Cool!
I think about doing an immobilize too, but I worry that it'll grab me too much attention. I don't think Thugs/Poison is a Tankermind, I think the Bruiser should be doing that work, mostly with Gas or Gang War to back him up, while I hold or debuff whatever he's beating on. That's why I want to get DEF for my pets.
I'm going down the ACC-Hold-DEF Incarnate road. I've only got the Common though at this point. But I should see good benefits out of all three of those buffs and eventually I'm pretty sure I can softcap the pets.
I posted my build in a different thread last week, here it is if you want to see it. http://boards.cityofheroes.com//show...39&postcount=7
The first thing I need to know is what bonuses from sets and powers transfer over to the pets. If I make my own build to have high passive defense will all of that or only some of that transfer over? So far I've stayed away from a high passive defense build because it would mean compromising on a lot of the other aspects of the build like high damage, extra debuffing and increased HP etc. But If there's a way to get high passive defense and keep those things from the current setup then I'm all for it.
Nox. Gas currently has fairly good recharge on it but I suppose that I could try to get some more out of it if needed. I will have a play around with the build and try to figure out where some can be moved around but there's no point me doing that if I'm gonna completely rebuild it for high passive defense - before I can do too much more I need to e shown either a good way to get what I want from the build WITH passive defense or live on without it but being a more effective MM...
I have found that having an immob is very useful especially when solo to stop the mobs running around and if the pets are in bodyguard mode then you won't get too much agro than you can handle. As a general rule in teams I've not had problems either so I thought that it would be a good idea to keep that in. But is Soul the best PPP group I could go for. Is the shield (Dark Embrace) the best that I could get for the MM or is another one even better?
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This is what makes IOing out a MM sort of sucky. Only the Pet unique IOs for +Def and +Res work on pets. Well, there are a few other exceptions for procs (% smashing from Explosive Strike, % -Res from Achilles Heel). The bonuses themselves though, only for you. The +Def you build up is yours and yours alone.
| The first thing I need to know is what bonuses from sets and powers transfer over to the pets. If I make my own build to have high passive defense will all of that or only some of that transfer over? |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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So if only the uniques and the chance-for procs count for the +DEF (and I have most if not all of them in my build) then how can your pets have around 40% def??
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Originally Posted by Dromio
One thing that I see is that you don't have any slotting for Defense in your Enforcers. I think this can be really important. I can't get my Thugs/Poison to load in Mids right now (I think it's something with Bile Spray) but currently my Thugs all sit at around 40% DEF to everything. That's pretty good.
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Because your second tier pets, the Enforcers, have every Leadership toggle. They come with Manuevers by default and then are given Assault and Tactics with the pet upgrades. And EACH of the two Enforcers has each power. So they each, with slotting, can be providing all of their buddies (and any other Thugs from Masterminds on your team) with 12% or more defense. Total comes to over 24%. Then you can add 10% with the IO specials (you've got both) and all of a sudden you're in the mid-thirties. I added my Maneuvers (why can't I ever spell that?) and I can get them up to the very low forties.|
Originally Posted by Soul Storm
So if only the uniques and the chance-for procs count for the +DEF (and I have most if not all of them in my build) then how can your pets have around 40% def??
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If you look at my build this is why I used HO's for the very first time. I was able to buff both the Defense the Enforcers provide and the To Hit buff they provide from Tactics. And then of course I'm running those toggles too.
Two Thug Masterminds on the same team should have every pet capped, including Gang War (because all that DEF applies to them too) from just the two sets of Enforcers.
I admit I'm hoping for a good reaction from you, this sounds like a part of these pets that you didn't know about. It should be an excellent discovery I hope! You were doing well before, just imagine what you can do now!
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| The first thing I need to know is what bonuses from sets and powers transfer over to the pets. If I make my own build to have high passive defense will all of that or only some of that transfer over? So far I've stayed away from a high passive defense build because it would mean compromising on a lot of the other aspects of the build like high damage, extra debuffing and increased HP etc. But If there's a way to get high passive defense and keep those things from the current setup then I'm all for it. |
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| Nox. Gas currently has fairly good recharge on it but I suppose that I could try to get some more out of it if needed. I will have a play around with the build and try to figure out where some can be moved around but there's no point me doing that if I'm gonna completely rebuild it for high passive defense - before I can do too much more I need to e shown either a good way to get what I want from the build WITH passive defense or live on without it but being a more effective MM... |
One thing though, is that getting more HP for you isn't really going to make that much difference (IO hit point buffs only apply to you). Nor is your Armor. The idea is that you're the crowd control/debuffer and the pets are the damage/aggro magnets. So HP and Armor is nice, but in an ideal situation shouldn't come into play too much.
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| I have found that having an immob is very useful especially when solo to stop the mobs running around and if the pets are in bodyguard mode then you won't get too much agro than you can handle. As a general rule in teams I've not had problems either so I thought that it would be a good idea to keep that in. But is Soul the best PPP group I could go for. Is the shield (Dark Embrace) the best that I could get for the MM or is another one even better? |
I'm SO tempted by the immobilize, the more I think about it. Which of the immobilizes keeps foes from getting knocked back, do you know? That would be really good to have to keep foes in the Arsonists Burn patch and to keep the pets from getting into other spawns. I usually tell half my pets to attack and keep half in bodyguard, so I think I could do an immob, just like you say.
EDIT: In game you can right click on your pets and see their combat stats. That will show you what their defense, accuracy, to hit, and damage buffs are (and more). Plus, like the power screen usually does, you can see the sources of the buffs, so you'll see the Enforcers' Leadership toggles in there.
Well I've gone over the build again and below is the latest incarnation. I added in Maneuvers, changed the PPP back to Mu cos I remembered the Electric Fences is the only immob that will stop KB affecting them (arsonist burn patch). I juggled around a few slots hopefully its alright generally. I removed the hold and moved elixir of life in its place because with Nox Gas and para poison (which has v high rech) I will have lots of holds up anyway. It seems with taking the Nerve Core Paragon I'll also get more def squeezed out as well so it seems to be a win win...
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EDIT: I'm at work now but when I get back later I think I will change Tactics for Antidote and stick some resistance sets with a good bonus in there because with the Nerve Core Paragon alpha there'll be no need for tactics; it'd be a waste.
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My thought was that while I wouldn't need the extra ToHit or Accuracy, my pets, who are -2, -1, and even level to me, might need it. If you're fighting +4's, that's +6 to your lowest minions. I'm doing Nerve for the Hold and Defense though too.
Yeah I've been wondering about that but as far as I can tell the bonus' you get from Nerve apply to the pets (or at least certain aspects of the pet's as powers themselves) already so they'd get that extra 45% accuracy too... Unless of course I'm completely wrong.
For now I've put in Antidote in its place for want of a more useful power.
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It should apply to the pets. Anything that can be slotted to accept those kinds of enhancements should be effected by the Nerve. |
Originally Posted by Soul Storm
Yeah I've been wondering about that but as far as I can tell the bonus' you get from Nerve apply to the pets (or at least certain aspects of the pet's as powers themselves) already so they'd get that extra 45% accuracy too... Unless of course I'm completely wrong.
For now I've put in Antidote in its place for want of a more useful power. |
I'm a little worried that I'm over Accuracy/ToHitting. But really the Hold and Defense will both be providing a lot of bonus too, so I think it's still the way to go. Antidote is far from a bad choice, I may be looking at doing something like that eventually.
The bonus about the Nerve Alpha is, I suppose, that with the extra accuracy you don't specifically have to slot for accuracy as much as you would normally in your powers. I don't think you should be worries about over acc/to-hitting because tactics will give everyone else on your team a bonus to-hit too.
Oh and to quantify why I like +hp on my MM... it's because MM's have THE lowest health of anyone (iirc) and so getting hit by pretty much anything can lower your life expectancy dramatically and if you die it doesn't matter how much your pets are soft-capped to defense.
One thing I need advice on is whether or not i should bother about having personally high defense at all. At the moment the focus is on dmg and debuffs and a little resistance for myself. Should I try to get some high passive def on the mm himself or is that a waste of slotting that would just ruin the build?
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I think it would be really difficult to do. I think you could probably get fairly high, maybe into the thirties even (before Incarnate), but you'd have to concentrate every IO set into getting it and that might leave you lacking in other areas. But I've not really ever tried it in MIDS. Especially since I'm going down that Nerve road that will include defense, it might be worth looking at. I think it would have to include three powers from the Fighting pool and you'd have to choose your APP carefully to get an armor that helps. |
Originally Posted by Soul Storm
The bonus about the Nerve Alpha is, I suppose, that with the extra accuracy you don't specifically have to slot for accuracy as much as you would normally in your powers. I don't think you should be worries about over acc/to-hitting because tactics will give everyone else on your team a bonus to-hit too.
Oh and to quantify why I like +hp on my MM... it's because MM's have THE lowest health of anyone (iirc) and so getting hit by pretty much anything can lower your life expectancy dramatically and if you die it doesn't matter how much your pets are soft-capped to defense. One thing I need advice on is whether or not i should bother about having personally high defense at all. At the moment the focus is on dmg and debuffs and a little resistance for myself. Should I try to get some high passive def on the mm himself or is that a waste of slotting that would just ruin the build? |
Yeah, it would be an interesting MIDS excercise. I'll have to take a look.
Yeah I think I agree with you that it wouldn't really help the build and would somewhat completely refocus it. Below is my current incarnation of the build. I've gone over the slotting to make sure its as focused as it can be and as effective as it can be with the slots i've put down so I'm pretty happy with it at the moment unless anyone has noticed some kind of flaw that I've not picked up on or something I can do to make it even better?
What sort of cost and I looking at here do you think?
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I have no idea on cost, I'm not familiar enough with the market, or with the differences between that build and your current build to give any kind of intelligent guess. Sorry.
I think that build looks really good. In fact there's stuff in there that I'm going to evaluate for my build; I think you've done a better job of slotting than I have. I wish there was a way to see the pet stats in MIDS, but if there is I don't know how to do it. I'd love to see where your pet DEF is going to wind up.
Oh, I thought of something last night regarding you taking one END reducer out of the pet upgrades. I think when we zone it applies the upgrade level of the highest upgrade pet to all the pets on arrival. So it's like a free upgrade if you're in a position to use it. I lost the Arsonist part way through a mission last night, went on without him, then summoned him before I exited. He was fully upgraded for free during the zoning.
Also, and this is totally off topic, but I've been summoning the tier one and two pets and upgrading them completely, then summoning the Bruiser and only giving him the first upgrade. He doesn't have as many powers but he does get himself into combat much sooner instead of chucking boulders (which drives me nuts). Especially with the Gas on him, it's a nice thing. Do you do anything like that?
For such a long time (before you had group MM buffs - you had to apply each tier 1 and then 2 upgrade to all pets) the brute would just keep throwing a boulder and you had to specifically tell him to go into the middle of a mob. You could get around it by never giving the brute the tier 2 upgrade. But they fixed that so now he throws the boulder once and then runs in... if your brute is being funny then dismiss and try again but the code should work now.
Excellent thread, fellas...I'm going to check out some of these builds tonight and see what I can glean for my own I19 respec. Scarlet Toxin, my Thugs/Poison MM, hasn't gotten a lot of play recently while I alpha'd up other toons, but it's about time to dust her off and a respec is definitely in order.
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I used to do the same, but since the 2nd tier upgrade also includes Foot Stomp, I really hate to avoid giving it to Ugly (my Bruiser). The way I handle it is that I have a macro that sends only Ugly to whatever spot I click, and sets him to aggressive. This way he gets most of the aggro, he doesn't stop to chuck a boulder, and I still get the benefit of bodyguard mode from all the other pets. Works like a charm when soloing or in small groups. And if I screw up and click the wrong spot or something, then he usually chucks one boulder and attacks anyway.
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Originally Posted by Dromio
Also, and this is totally off topic, but I've been summoning the tier one and two pets and upgrading them completely, then summoning the Bruiser and only giving him the first upgrade. He doesn't have as many powers but he does get himself into combat much sooner instead of chucking boulders (which drives me nuts). Especially with the Gas on him, it's a nice thing. Do you do anything like that?
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Well a small update lads: I managed to calculate roughly what I could salvage from the current build (around half of the current IO's) and 34 IO's I don't need that I could sell for a grand total of around 500m. Problem is that I also worked out what I need to buy... which even if I did it the long way and AMerited my way to the uniques it would take like a month and still give me around about 1 bil to find to buy everything else. This is with moving the build around slightly (I moved the KB Prot from Vengeance to Charged Armor so I could keep the current IO to save money). So although I want to respec into this build this second I'm going to have to spend a little time fund raising I think.
Thought I'd update the thread with the end figures that my revised build gives (this is before I've had the chance to unlock alpha or slot a common or anything yet). I still have to slot in the LOTG in Vengeance and Maneuvers but even without that my pet's have 36.77% def. I can, situationally, stick in a luck here and there and with the alpha they should reach soft capped levels.
Build: success!
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Awesome! Thanks for the update!|
Originally Posted by Soul Storm
Thought I'd update the thread with the end figures that my revised build gives (this is before I've had the chance to unlock alpha or slot a common or anything yet). I still have to slot in the LOTG in Vengeance and Maneuvers but even without that my pet's have 36.77% def. I can, situationally, stick in a luck here and there and with the alpha they should reach soft capped levels.
Build: success! |
How is this build compared to what you had when you started the thread?
The build is very very good now. Very easy to play on teams and solo (although I still have the same trouble with spike damage I always have done). My biggest problem with the character now is the pain of having the arsonist charge into melee on every single mob and die. I'm actually losing patience with the character because of that alone but that's a game issue not specifically about this build.
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Originally Posted by Soul Storm
The build is very very good now. Very easy to play on teams and solo (although I still have the same trouble with spike damage I always have done). My biggest problem with the character now is the pain of having the arsonist charge into melee on every single mob and die. I'm actually losing patience with the character because of that alone but that's a game issue not specifically about this build.
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I've got my thugs broken into two groups. I have a button that tells the Bruiser, one LT, and one Thug to attack, and another button for the other three pets. That way I can send in three while the other three stay in BG mode (but in teams I can send them all in). What I did for the Arsonist was to keep him in my secondary group, the one that's more BG than attack. It's not perfect, but he does last longer for me that way.
He's kind of the opposite of the Bruiser. It's too bad we can't set the Bruiser for melee only and the Arsonist for Ranged only.
I'd be interested in your bind setup and your help to get that system working for me!
I altered the build slightly yesterday, replacing all the Titanium Coating's except the resistance io with the other two steadfast io's to make a full set. That boosts my def by 3%.
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I just have buttons with the following Macros:|
Originally Posted by Soul Storm
I'd be interested in your bind setup and your help to get that system working for me!
I altered the build slightly yesterday, replacing all the Titanium Coating's except the resistance io with the other two steadfast io's to make a full set. That boosts my def by 3%. |
petcom_name <bruisername> attack defensive$$petcom_name <enforcer1> attack defensive$$petcom_name <thug1> attack defensive
So that makes my bruiser, one enforcer, and one regular thug attack my target, and when done fighting reset to defensive. I love that reset to defensive. So then I have a second button that has the other three pets on it:
petcom_name <enforcer2> attack defensive$$petcom_name <thug2> attack defensive$$petcom_name <arsonistthug3> attack defensive
If I want all the pets attacking a target I just hit both buttons. I can also just have the primary group attack of course and keep the last three as bodyguards, or I can assign one target to each group. I'm pretty sure you could split your pets however you choose, even if you had five in one group and one in another, or three two pet groups.
Use the exact names by the way. For example, my Bruiser is named Romeo, my Enforcers are Mercutio and Benvolio, and my Thugs are Valentine, Tybalt, and Paris (arsonist). So the actual first Macro looks like:
petcom_name Romeo attack defensive$$petcom_name Mercutio attack defensive$$petcom_name Valentine attack defensive
I think my command line to create that button was:
/macro prima petcom_name Romeo attack defensive$$petcom_name Mercutio attack defensive$$petcom_name Valentine attack defensive
That will create a button called Prima that you can then drag where ever you want it to go. That same format applies to all my buttons, just /macro, then the button label, then the macro text. You can also do all of the same things and bind to keyboard keys. The "All about Binds and Macros" in the MM guides can tell you more.
I have a button that targets the Bruiser and puts Gas on him (you have to double click the button): petselect_name Romeo$$powexecname Noxious Gas
And I have a button that you double click to target and Heal the Bruiser: petselect_name Romeo$$powexecname Alkaloid
I had taken a long break from my MM and I have to say that when I came back to her these macros really helped me enjoy her a lot more. I saw this stuff in a guide, so I won't take credit, but I can't find the guide right now.
Okay so I'm currently on a build I'm 90% happy with but it needs updating to take into account the changes with incarnates, the alpha slot and inherent health.
My primary use of the character is a mixture of solo and teaming (has to be able to solo comfortably and also be an asset on teams). Solo I don't want to have any trouble with anything - soloing AV's in a bonus in this build. In teams I want the character to be a pure debuffer and yet have good damage from the pets. I've read around on the forums and I've changed by patron pool from Mu to Soul in order to pick up an extra hold and immob which imo are useful but if you can show me why not I'll think of going with something else.
The build below is currently what I'm thinking of respeccing into. I am not sure whether to go for the Musculature Core Paragon or the Nerve Core Paragon.
Another thing I was wondering about is whether its better to try to go the soft-cap route...
Any advice for me guys?
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Solvent Abuse: Level 50 Mutation Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Poison
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), HO:Nucle(5), EdctM'r-PetDef(5), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7)
Level 1: Alkaloid -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(3), Numna-Heal(7), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(9)
Level 2: Envenom -- HO:Lyso(A), LdyGrey-DefDeb(11), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(13), LdyGrey-DefDeb/EndRdx(13), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(15), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(15)
Level 4: Weaken -- DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(17), HO:Lyso(17), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(19), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(19), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(21)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(45)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 10: Neurotoxic Breath -- RechRdx-I(A), P'ngTtl-Acc/EndRdx(11), P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(29), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(29), TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(31)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- GSFC-Build%(A), Achilles-ResDeb%(23), HO:Nucle(25), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(25), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg(27)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 16: Elixir of Life -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Gang War -- S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(A), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(37), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(37), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(39), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(39)
Level 20: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 22: Aid Other -- Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(A), Mrcl-Heal(50)
Level 24: Aid Self -- Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(A), IntRdx-I(31), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mrcl-Heal(34)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- S'bndAl-Dmg(A), S'bndAl-Build%(39), S'bndAl-Dmg/EndRdx(40), HO:Nucle(40), SvgnRt-Acc(40), SvgnRt-PetResDam(42)
Level 28: Paralytic Poison -- HO:Endo(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(42), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(42), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(A), HO:Cyto(31), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(45)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 35: Vengeance -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
Level 38: Noxious Gas -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam(46), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Soul Tentacles -- TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), HO:Endo(45), TotHntr-Immob/Acc(46), TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx(50)
Level 47: Soul Storm -- Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Hold(48), HO:Endo(48)
Level 49: Recall Friend -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Boost
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(27), Mrcl-Rcvry+(36)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-End%(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(33)