I would definitely suggest aiming for a lot more positional defense, mainly melee defense. Passive regeneration and recharge does not go nearly as far as increasing your defense does.
Also power wise, you're taking Dull Pain way too late its also underslotted.
Moment of Glory is also underslotted as well, it will save your tail more times than you can count.
Over all it looks like you're sacrificing a lot of slots to go into Dark Mastery and its causing you to give up a lot in terms of survivability.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Well I'm level 25 now and so far I haven't needed Dull Pain. I could get 2 more slots for it but I lose 20% regen if I do. I can place it earlier if need be. It just wasn't high on my priority list because I never had a need for it. I could slot Moment of Glory more towards recharge too and get it down to 90s. Kismet was a leftover because I felt I needed more accuracy but now that it seems to be more into my comfort zone already, I can slide it out.
The whole purpose behind the build was not to have to go into purples. If I had, I could up defense too but what would be the point? Then I go into basically the same builds everyone else has/wants and regen really should stand on its own. With the help of darkness mastery, I was able to make use of what it allows me to do to increase recharge by even more to get even more benefit from what regeneration allows me to do.
So I juggled a coyple of things around with what you mentioned to get a bit more out of Dull Pain and MoG and got 22% more health regen.
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What I'm saying is that passive regeneration alone will not help your survivability all that much without some positional defense.
The reason why a lot of people focus on recharge and defense is because it works, but you can play your character how you like which is the beauty of this game.
But with that said if you are looking toward improving your character in specific aspects I'd suggest mentioning that in your first post because 95% of people on the scrapper boards will give you suggestions that will give you the best performance possible minus everything else.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
This is what I am confused about. Are you saying Regen by itself is no good?
No I am saying that passive regeneration(meaning without clicking any of your heals or using inspirations and just allowing your health bar to fill up on its own) will not help you nearly as much as regeneration + defense + recharge. Recharge and regeneration will help some but not nearly as much. Regeneration the set is arguably one of the best secondaries for scrappers.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
That wouldn't that make it the worst secondary if it wasn't for IOs? Without them, it doesn't seem like you'd be able to get any good defense out of it.
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Well... I wouldn't put it so harshly, but... yes. Pure regeneration of health, on its own, is not going to get you very far. The Regeneration secondary, by itself, without selection of powers designed to complement it, is not particularly powerful.|
Originally Posted by Shadowraithe
This is what I am confused about. Are you saying Regen by itself is no good?
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Originally Posted by Shadowraithe
That wouldn't that make it the worst secondary if it wasn't for IOs? Without them, it doesn't seem like you'd be able to get any good defense out of it.
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Originally Posted by Shadowraithe
...I could up defense too but what would be the point? Then I go into basically the same builds everyone else has/wants and regen really should stand on its own....
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In general, the best strategy for survival is layered mitigation - defense, damage resistance, and healing or regeneration. Some secondaries emphasize one at the expense of the others. Regeneration is all about the healing and regeneration, while Super Reflexes is mostly about the defense. Generally speaking, those secondaries could be described as "out of balance". They're a stool with only a single leg. Granted, you can just build up that one leg if you wish, and it'll be playable. But from a survivability perspective, you're best served by working on the OTHER legs. For Regeneration, that means adding defense and resistance (recharge helps a whole lot too, but doesn't really fit the analogy, so analogy fail). The easiest way to add a lot of defense is with Broad Sword or Katana. But you can also grab Combat Jumping, Weave, and so on. A Gaussian set and the Steadfast Protection unique are probably in range of most players. While grabbing Weave, you'll want the even more important Tough for smashing/lethal resistance. No, you won't be a soft-capped 75% resistance monster with Regeneration. But adding some defense and resistance will still help balance out your survivability.
Now obviously, you can play what you want. When I was leveling up Werner (Katana/Regen) years and years ago, I was going for absolute maximum regeneration at the expense of everything else. I knew that it wasn't the optimal approach, but it was what I wanted to play. And I enjoyed it a lot. So I'm certainly not telling you to play differently. I'm just saying that there are good reasons that people are bumping up their defense and recharge on Regeneration builds. It isn't herd behavior, though there could be some of that as well. It's well-considered build optimization.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Regen survives just fine on it's own, mine is only moderately IOed and is nearly unkillable in any sane situation.
What Santorican is getting at is that when you start adding IOs you should focus on the things Regen does NOT have rather than improving what it already has scads of.
Regen already has a metric butt ton of passive regen. I like adding some because I don't like hitting my heals when I'm fighting minions (I prefer to save them for things that might actually hurt me), but it shouldn't really be a priority.
Regen has almost no resistance in the set and no inherent defense at all. If you are getting hit with everything coming your way, all the passive regen in the world isn't going to keep you alive. But, if some of that stuff is missing you, all that passive regen gets a lot more valuable. Since only Resilience has any kind of resistance in it, all that stuff hitting you is going to be doing full damage, or close to it.
After recharge, a regen should start looking into defense bonuses so regen and healing isn't the only thing keeping you alive. If you look through all the really good scrapper builds posted on the forums, a common theme you will notice is that the truly standout ones all have more than one layer of mitigation.
My own BS/DA is softcapped to all positions. When my defense fails me, it is backed up by good resistances, which are in turn backed up by a massive heal.
A Regen that focuses on recharge and passive regen really only has healing as a means of mitigation. The major downside to that is, there are things in the game that can kill you faster than you can react to them (coughDr.Aeoncough). Also, if you're relying on nothing but your heals to keep you alive getting hit with a large amount of recharge debuff really screws you. There are a lot of slows in the game, and they are a regen scrapper's worst enemy.
Not saying you're wrong for building you character how you want to, just saying that layering your mitigation is better than having only one source of it. Because that source WILL fail you eventually.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Thanks you two. That helped break it down for me
I take it this would probably work out better then?
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I don't want to give up on fire melee yet. I like its damage.
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Not really. Remember, you should focus on either positional or typed defense. Getting both is rather pointless since the game takes only one or the other. Secondly, the only */Regen power that benefits from the +heal set bonus is Dull Pain, and the only part of that that gets any benefit is the heal portion, not the +hp. +Heal set bonuses are pretty much only useful for empaths, therms, and pain doms. Another point, stealth sucks. Don't grab it. It's much better to just go with Fighting because Tough + Weave is awesome.|
Originally Posted by Shadowraithe
I take it this would probably work out better then?
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Try this build on for size. It's focused on positional defense for 32.1% +def(melee), manages 120% +rech (just shy of perma-DP), and plenty of endurance. You'll have great damage by running the Incinerate>Scorch>Cremate>Scorch attack string. If you really want more AoE damage, you could switch out GFS for Breath of Fire (probably go for a 5 piece Posi so that you'll that little bit of +rech you need in order to get perma-DP; the extra slot could go into Tough for a 4 piece Impervium Armor or SJ/SS for the 3 piece BotZ), but I found FSC to be plenty on my FM/SD.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.621
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Scorch -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(3), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), T'Death-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Cremate -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(9), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), T'Death-Dam%(11)
Level 4: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(13), EndMod-I(13)
Level 6: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal(17), Dct'dW-Rchg(17)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(50), Winter-ResSlow(50)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal(21), Dct'dW-Rchg(21)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48)
Level 16: Integration -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), Numna-Heal(25), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(25), Heal-I(27)
Level 18: Fire Sword Circle -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(27), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Oblit-%Dam(31)
Level 20: Build Up -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(31)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(33), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Incinerate -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(33), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(34), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), T'Death-Dam%(36)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(36), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dct'dW-Heal(37), Dct'dW-Rchg(37)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 32: Greater Fire Sword -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(39), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(39), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), T'Death-Dam%(42)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40), LkGmblr-Def(42)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(42), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(43), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45), GSFC-Build%(46)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(46), P'Shift-End%(46), P'Shift-EndMod(48), EndMod-I(50)
Level 47: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 4: Ninja Run
Good stuff, Umbral. You da man. Thanks alot. I was trying to work into something like that but I couldn't get it quite right. Good eye.
One question. Why no stamina? I thought stamina would be better than physical perfection?
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One reason would be that you can't have 5 power pools (the build I gave you has Speed, Leaping, Leadership, and Fighting). Fitness got kicked in order to bring in Leadership.|
Originally Posted by Shadowraithe
Good stuff, Umbral. You da man. Thanks alot. I was trying to work into something like that but I couldn't get it quite right. Good eye.
One question. Why no stamina? I thought stamina would be better than physical perfection? |
The other reason would be that, the way I've slotted Physical Perfection, it actually grants more +recov than Stamina does because the Heal set procs benefit from the slotting of the power they are in, and, before anyone tries to tell me the devs "fixed" that, they didn't: all the devs changed was a bug wherein enhancing either healing or end mod enhancement in a power was enhancing both of the Numina's proc's attributes. It has been fixed so that it now only enhances the single appropriate aspect (heal enhancement benefits +regen, end mod enhancement benefits +recov), and all of the other procs were left completely alone.
Using advice and tips from Umbral, I think I managed to come up with a build for fire/regen/dark that works for me. I didn't go with purples because of cost involved although the build is still by no means cheap. Purples would improve it greatly though. But I did pull off around 59% recharge with 709% health regen. Think that is enough?