Unless you are building a farmer, I don't see putting tough into a build. With controls and debuffs a controller is fine with an epic shield (if any at all) alone in most cases in pve.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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First . . . do whatever you need to do to take Volcanic Gasses! It is one of the best holds in the game! Far more important than Stone Prison. Slot it up to the max with Hold Duration and Recharge. And by the way, it is "Earth Control" so the set is referred to as "Earth" rather than "Stone." I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but "Stone" confused me for a second, and it may confuse others.|
Originally Posted by Stardrive
OK, just looking for some opinions here...
I have a Stone/Thermal troller. She's a great debuffer, and using Forge and the two shields on the Animate Stone along with throwing Melt Armor and other debuffs at baddies makes her a monster support toon and good at soloing very small mobs. She's level 44 though, and I'm trying to decide what to do to toughen her up. She has Tough, and just got Rock Armor. They sort of fit with her backstory/concept. But her defense still stinks, since they only cover Smashing and Lethal damage. So do I shift her to a different Epic Pool for better defense, or drop it completely and add a few extra control/offensive powers? I have all of the Stone set except volcanic gasses and Salt Crystals. Most of what she has on the Thermal set is the two shields and the debuffs. Either way, she needs better protection OR to be able to kill faster/control large mobs a bit better. In a large team the problem isn't TOO bad, but in a small team or solo, she's an aggro monster from hell with those stone Immobolizes. Honestly I'm leaning towards just dropping the defensive powers and adding one more control and some offense from the Epic Poool. Outside of the Animate Stone, she has the (figurative) DPS of a level 6 scrapper and it drives me nuts. |
Second: How are you using your Stone Cages? In general, Earth Controllers operate with three AoE controls. (a) Stalagmites followed by Stone Cages. (b) Earthquake. (c) Volcanic Gasses. All of them can have Quicksand cast underneath them to stack -Defense and the slow will catch any foes who somehow get away. Each of the three have strategic times when that one is better than the others. Stalagmites+Stone Cages is the best at stopping the "alpha strike," but will usually not hit bosses. Earthquake will often knock down bosses, as long as you don't have knockdown resistant foes. Volcanic Gasses will even hold bosses, but it takes a few seconds for it to stack enough mag.
It is pretty common for Earth Controllers to take a few hits. Stalagmites may miss a few. Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses may take a few seconds before the group is controlled. But no controller primary has better AoE control than Earth. Whenever possible, let the Tank grab aggro first. If you don't have a handy tank, then use your AoE controls and hide around a corner to reduce the damage you take until the group is controlled.
Third: It sounds like you haven't taken much from your secondary. It may be that your secondary has good stuff that will help your character be more effective (I haven't played Thermal very far, so I'm not as familiar with it as other sets.) I'm not a big fan of the Fighting Pool on a controller, as usually there are powers that can make you be a better controller. It might be a good idea for you to post your build so folks can make some suggestions. Without a build, we're just guessing.
Fourth: The Earth APP set's Rock Armor has the highest Defense you can get from a power. And yes, it is only Smashing/Lethal, but most attacks have a Smashing/Lethal component, so the Armor will apply. Switching to the Ice Armor will give you slightly lower Defense. Fire, Psi and Primal are all Resistance armors. If you insist on keeping Tough, then Primal has the highest Smashing/Lethal Resistance to stack with Tough. I'm not that crazy about the other powers in the Primal set for an Earth Controller, but that's just me.
Earth Control is very low damage. Only Ice is lower. Thermal doesn't add any damage powers, either. If you want to solo, you will probably want some other damage powers. If you like Fly for travel, take Air Superiority. The APP sets have damage powers -- the Earth APP has Seismic Smash, a great melee single target damage power that also has a hold built in. However, if you want to stay at range, which may be a good idea, consider the Fire or Ice sets. Fire lets you choose between Fireball and Fire Blast at level 41, so do you want single target damage or AoE? Then Fire has Fire Shield with Lethal, Smashing and Fire resistance, Consume for recovering endurance and Rise of the Phoenix, a self Rez power that does damage. Ice has a good single target blast, and then two AoE damage powers in Frost Breath and Ice Storm -- plus a nice "panic button" power in Hibernate and a defense-based shield.
There are lots of options depending upon your playstyle and what you want. Take a look at my Earth/Rad guide for some good information and strategy on the Earth set, and Thermal has some similarities to Rad in a few areas. Then work up your build in Mid's to post, and folks will help you out with it.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Good advice in both cases. Yes she did farm a bit at first, any farming she does now will be VERY secondary to RPing and running missions with my SG however.
I could shoot myself for missing Volcanic Gases now. I could have swore it was a PBAoE not a targeted, and I have a thing about letting a huge mob get close enough to pound my face in before I slap holds on, lol. That combined with a couple of attacks from the Earth Epic pool should balance her out nicely and up her survival greatly.
And yeah, on the Thermal secondary, I took Warmth (the default level 1 starter heal), the two shield powers, Forge, Heat Exhaustion and Melt Armor. All the nice buffs and debuffs. The other few powers that were essentially duplicates of Empathy set powers I figured fell more to the role of any Defenders on the team to handle.
Anybody has any further advice I'll be checking this thread a few more times over the next day or so. 
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Why is that? Defenders shield and debuff as well but you took those powers.
| The other few powers that were essentially duplicates of Empathy set powers I figured fell more to the role of any Defenders on the team to handle |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Earth control is simply not a farming build. Fire and Plant have decent AoE damage, but not Earth. It can "farm" slowly with a lot of investment in procs, but you will sacrifice some of your best aspect -- superior ranged AoE control.|
Originally Posted by Stardrive
Good advice in both cases. Yes she did farm a bit at first, any farming she does now will be VERY secondary to RPing and running missions with my SG however.
I could shoot myself for missing Volcanic Gases now. I could have swore it was a PBAoE not a targeted, and I have a thing about letting a huge mob get close enough to pound my face in before I slap holds on, lol. That combined with a couple of attacks from the Earth Epic pool should balance her out nicely and up her survival greatly. And yeah, on the Thermal secondary, I took Warmth (the default level 1 starter heal), the two shield powers, Forge, Heat Exhaustion and Melt Armor. All the nice buffs and debuffs. The other few powers that were essentially duplicates of Empathy set powers I figured fell more to the role of any Defenders on the team to handle. Anybody has any further advice I'll be checking this thread a few more times over the next day or so. |
Like MM, I feel that you generally should get the most out of your primary and secondary. That may change with a character built for a particular team, but it applies in standard situations. MM has played a Thermal up to 50 and I haven't, so I would take her advice on Thermal, as she is (almost always) spot on with what my opinion would be.
From what you describe, it sounds like you prefer to stay out of melee. In that case, you probably want to look at the Ice or Fire APP sets rather than Earth, since Seismic Smash is melee and Fissure is very short range (virtually melee). The Psi set's main benefit is mez protection, and Psi Tornado is decent AoE damage over time. Primal's AoE damage is limited to Torrent, a cone, but Conserve Power and Power Boost can be very nice for many builds -- I like Primal for Mind Controllers. Obviously, concept wins out over practicality in many cases, so if your concept fits with the Earth set, stick with it.
On the Earth side, I generally skip Salt Crystals and Stone Prison. Most of the time, Fossilize or Stone Cages will do the job that would be done by Stone Prison. Salt Crystals looks nice, but is not very effective.
You may want to consider fitting a Stealth IO in your build somewhere. It is almost like adding some defense.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I'm finding it hard to imagine room for Tough and it's precursor in an Earth/Thermal build, although if you don't have veteran attacks it is handy to have at least one slotted pool attack to help kill things. Earth Quake has an accuracy debuff that is slottable, so you can get some global defense for you team out of that. Hasten + VG + 4 x Accuracy/Hold/Recharge + 2 damage procs = win. Earth Quake and Quicksand slotted with damage procs can also help to throw out a fair amount of aoe damage when fighting more than 3 or so mobs. Add in a proc or two to Stone Cages, and you will have quite a few operating while you single target focus on the Bosses and Lts, the minions just sort of melt.
I tend to concentrate on Ranged Defense set bonuses and then make sure I never get within melee distance of a mob that's not held first. That lets me not have to take the Stone APP armor ( freeing up another power slot ) and still have pretty good defense numbers when stacked with Earthquakes slotted accuracy debuff. Granted Thermal isn't probably what I'd use to farm with, but Earth slotted right can be an ok farmer in the mid to late 40s with APP damage powers to help its great control. My Earth/TA can sort of Farm, she takes on large spawns with ease, as does my Earth/Storm. I'm pretty sure if you work it right you can get the Thermal to work for you as well - I would focus more on control and damage and debuffs than Tough and Armors.
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Earth Control doesn't need the Immobilize to function. The damage is negligible, so you're really only using it to set up containment. A great way to avoid agro? Stop pushing that button.|
Originally Posted by Stardrive
she's an aggro monster from hell with those stone Immobolizes.
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In a team Quicksand + Earthquake is usually enough control to keep the main pack you've focused on busy. Hang on to Stalagmites + Stone Cages in case you need to lock down a second pack. Drop Volcanic Gasses under them and the Stalagmites should give it time to hold most of the pack before the stun wears off.
Bear in mind that VG works differently from Cinders/Glacier/etc. You drop the gas patch, and it holds 5 targets every couple seconds, so it can take a while to ramp up to holding a pack of baddies. However, it can also hold bosses by itself and apply holds to foes who walk into the gas patch after it's been cast, so it gives up the reliability of an instantaneous AOE hold for flexibility and duration.
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I disagree. Can you get by without Stone Cages? Yeah, but you are missing out on one of your better tools. My Earth/Rad guide has a section on strategy for using Stone Cages effectively as a control power. Generally, I use Stone Cages with Stalagmites not for Containment but to prevent foes from wandering. Stone Cages is faster than Quicksand -- and in the time difference, foes can wander away. Then I throw Quicksand underneath it all for a massive Defense Debuff and to slow any foes who may have been missed. Using Quicksand alone, sometimes foes near the edges will get away. Quicksand alone does not keep the foes from spreading out of range of my debuffs, because when the stun from Stalagmites runs out, I still have the foes locked down with Stone Cages + Radiation Infection -- they can't move and they can't hit me or my team. Stone Cages alone can be very effective control if you cast it and then hide behind something.|
Originally Posted by Hart
Earth Control doesn't need the Immobilize to function. The damage is negligible, so you're really only using it to set up containment. A great way to avoid agro? Stop pushing that button.
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| In a team Quicksand + Earthquake is usually enough control to keep the main pack you've focused on busy. Hang on to Stalagmites + Stone Cages in case you need to lock down a second pack. Drop Volcanic Gasses under them and the Stalagmites should give it time to hold most of the pack before the stun wears off. |
A poorly used, frequently spammed AoE Immobilize can be a problem for many teams. But properly used, the AoE Immob is your only control power that recharges so fast that it can be used over and over again, and it can be very effective. Of course, add some procs and it becomes very, very effective.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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That's a totally different situation. Yes, holding things together for a toggle debuff is a great use of stone cages. The same goes for burn patches or other similar mechanics.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I still have the foes locked down with Stone Cages + Radiation Infection -- they can't move and they can't hit me or my team.
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However, for a Stone/Therm, they don't provide any benefit beyond holding stuff still and they make the aforementioned stuff angry.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Stone Cages alone can be very effective control if you cast it and then hide behind something.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I mostly agree here. I use Earthquake + Quicksand all the time, but Earthquake doesn't recharge fast enough for it to be up every group.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
A poorly used, frequently spammed AoE Immobilize can be a problem for many teams. But properly used, the AoE Immob is your only control power that recharges so fast that it can be used over and over again, and it can be very effective. Of course, add some procs and it becomes very, very effective.
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I wouldn't advise skipping the power, because it's a very useful tool that can frequently help a lot. I would advise a lot of discretion in using it. I think one of the best ways to develop that discretion is to deliberately play without it unless exceptional circumstances warrant using it.
With a good meleer on your team, aggro shouldn't be an issue from any power.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I wish that were true. |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
With a good meleer on your team, aggro shouldn't be an issue from any power.
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I have a friend that plays a plant troller who has the same complaints. She can peel aggro off of most tanks with little problem.
Granted a BIG part of my own problem was not paying attention to Volcanic Gases & how it worked. Huge noob error there.
Otherwise I think I play fairly smart though. I lead in with Earthquake (when it's up), then throw Quicksand, then Stalagmites. Stone Cages only got thrown in AFTER Earthquake went down completely or right after Quicksand otherwise. AFTER Stalagmites, I throw Melt Armor and Heat Exhaustion
Between the way mobs tend to break and run so quick lately, and my playing on teams that tend to be AOE heavy, my Troller tends to be in constant lock em down mode though, generating a good bit of aggro. Again though, Volcanic Gases should do a ton to fix that.
Well, in my experience with controllers and dominators it's very true. No matter the makeup of a team, with proper aggro control (from the controller and melee types), immobs have no/zero/nada effect on survivability.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
Hmm . . .|
Originally Posted by Stardrive
I wish that were true.
I have a friend that plays a plant troller who has the same complaints. She can peel aggro off of most tanks with little problem. Granted a BIG part of my own problem was not paying attention to Volcanic Gases & how it worked. Huge noob error there. Otherwise I think I play fairly smart though. I lead in with Earthquake (when it's up), then throw Quicksand, then Stalagmites. Stone Cages only got thrown in AFTER Earthquake went down completely or right after Quicksand otherwise. AFTER Stalagmites, I throw Melt Armor and Heat Exhaustion Between the way mobs tend to break and run so quick lately, and my playing on teams that tend to be AOE heavy, my Troller tends to be in constant lock em down mode though, generating a good bit of aggro. Again though, Volcanic Gases should do a ton to fix that. |
My experience is that opening with Earthquake, Volcanic Gasses or Quicksand makes it likely that you will get some aggro, unless the tank is competant and gets the aggro first (or an Illusionist uses PA, or a few other options). Stalagmites+Stone Cages is the opener I use if I want to avoid aggro -- you only get hit by those few who are missed, including bosses. Since Stalagmites alone isn't enough stun to get a boss, I use Earthquake more often if there are multiple bosses -- and hope there is something to hide behind.
If we have a decent tank, I'll let him get the aggro and bunch up a group. Then I'll lay down Quicksand for the defense debuff, to make sure that Stalagmites hits more reliably, then Stone Cages. While the AoE damage deallers wipe out the now immobile and stunned group, the tank can actually go on to the next group, and I can follow him with Quicksand-Earthquake this next time (since Stalagmites won't have recharged yet).
My guide discusses the strategy that I generally use. My choice of opener depends on the situation and the team. Most often, it is either Stalagmites + SC, or Earthquake. I keep VG in reserve for tough groups and groups with bosses. Quicksand goes under everything. Stalagmites+SC+Quicksand is such a huge amount of defense debuff (65%) that it makes Blasters feel they are in AoE paradise.
I rarely have to chain controls . . . in part because Earth/Rad has the debuffs that provide quasi-control for the last few survivors. My Earth/Storm plays a bit differently, but I still use Stone Cages quite a bit, and find that it does not draw aggro when used in combination with other powers.
However, I don't "spam" stone cages. I only use it in the right combination situations. So in that, we agree.
I don't like to generally make recommendations based upon late game max builds with huge amounts of recharge -- everyone doesn't spend that kind of time IO'ing out their characters. So, I assume that the recharge on Earthquake is only fast enough for every other group.
Try using Stalagmites+Stone Cages, followed by Quicksand as your opener. You might like it ... besides, the "stomp-Clap-BOOM" animation is fun.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
OK, just looking for some opinions here...
I have a Stone/Thermal troller. She's a great debuffer, and using Forge and the two shields on the Animate Stone along with throwing Melt Armor and other debuffs at baddies makes her a monster support toon and good at soloing very small mobs.
She's level 44 though, and I'm trying to decide what to do to toughen her up. She has Tough, and just got Rock Armor. They sort of fit with her backstory/concept. But her defense still stinks, since they only cover Smashing and Lethal damage.
So do I shift her to a different Epic Pool for better defense, or drop it completely and add a few extra control/offensive powers? I have all of the Stone set except volcanic gasses and Salt Crystals. Most of what she has on the Thermal set is the two shields and the debuffs.
Either way, she needs better protection OR to be able to kill faster/control large mobs a bit better. In a large team the problem isn't TOO bad, but in a small team or solo, she's an aggro monster from hell with those stone Immobolizes. Honestly I'm leaning towards just dropping the defensive powers and adding one more control and some offense from the Epic Poool. Outside of the Animate Stone, she has the (figurative) DPS of a level 6 scrapper and it drives me nuts.