Yeah, by all means, give it a shot. Maybe you'll love it. As much of a min/maxer as I am, I still end up loving the strangest things like how fast my Regen can die, the sound that Poison Dart makes on my widow, or my main brute's costume. Maybe you'll love having your enemies all cowering in fear, even if it does technically slow you down a bit. A character you love is going to level much faster than a character you hate, that's for sure.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I've always rather liked the Presence Pool, and took it on my DM/Regen and used it all the way to 50. Something just feels "scrappery" about using Intimidate to bellow your presence to your foe before you take him down, and Invoke Panic's animation just screams badass.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Well said. As I think someone else said nothing is set in stone, and worse comes to worse I can just try out the Presence pool and if I don't like it or just don't find it very useful I can always respec and take the Fighting pool instead or whatever.
The best way to find out if something works for you is try it out yourself. |
Having said that, notice I talked about the animations there and not the performance? Yeah - see what Umbral said about the presence pool and scrappers. If you take it for the fun of it then have a blast - it's a very fun pool to use. Don't expect a stellar performance. I wouldn't slot the first two powers in it at all, and I would at least slot two lv 50 Generic Accuracy IO's in Invoke Panic, or you might as well rename it to Throw Tantrum, because it'll miss nearly everyone in the spawn.
Even slotted for accuracy it'll only get about two-thirds of the spawn cowering, but man is it fun to do! It's very good for getting the li'l suckers to stand in place for multiple soul drains, if for nothing else.
Eventually, though, you'll look at your lv 50 DM/Regen and think "I wonder what else I can do with this one?" And then you'll respec out of the presence pool for something that will actualy improve your scrapper's performance. I did.
Until then, have a blast with it.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Heh, or I could utilize dual builds and have my "fun" build with the Presence pool and a different build for more serious stuff.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I've always rather liked the Presence Pool, and took it on my DM/Regen and used it all the way to 50. Something just feels "scrappery" about using Intimidate to bellow your presence to your foe before you take him down, and Invoke Panic's animation just screams badass.
Having said that, notice I talked about the animations there and not the performance? Yeah - see what Umbral said about the presence pool and scrappers. If you take it for the fun of it then have a blast - it's a very fun pool to use. Don't expect a stellar performance. I wouldn't slot the first two powers in it at all, and I would at least slot two lv 50 Generic Accuracy IO's in Invoke Panic, or you might as well rename it to Throw Tantrum, because it'll miss nearly everyone in the spawn. Even slotted for accuracy it'll only get about two-thirds of the spawn cowering, but man is it fun to do! It's very good for getting the li'l suckers to stand in place for multiple soul drains, if for nothing else. Eventually, though, you'll look at your lv 50 DM/Regen and think "I wonder what else I can do with this one?" And then you'll respec out of the presence pool for something that will actualy improve your scrapper's performance. I did. Until then, have a blast with it. |
Also, when you mentioned not bothering to slot the first two powers did you mean the literal first two powers (the taunts) or a taunt + Intimidate? Just wondering because my build is pretty tight on slots and I wasn't exactly sure how to slot them. I wasn't going to put any more slots into the taunt but I was thinking of putting some into Intimdate and I have 5 slots currently set to Invoke Panic.
It's weird. Most builds I plan I have more slots than I know what to do with but this build is actually pretty tight.
While I agree the general notion of "play what you enjoy, not what everyone else says you should play", I've found it a lot less enjoyable to unwittingly push ATs into what they're bad at than what they're good at. If you know you're making an odd build, enjoy it, but if it plays funky, that's why.
The Fighting Pool debate is similar. I've leveled my DM/Regen to 50 without the Fighting pool, but felt a dramatic difference once I respecced into it. A large part of that might be my suicidal-tendencies with my Regen, but Tough and Weave have saved my **** more times than Instant Healing and MoG together.
Like pretty much everyone else that's commented here, I found that I needed Dark Consumption or Stamina, but not both. I disliked DC. I spent far too much time worrying about my end when I wanted to be worried about my DPS. Stamina lets me never worry about it. I can run Tough and Weave, and still have the slack to keep up Super Speed outside of AV fights. You might call that excessive though 
Well, one of the guides I read on DM described it as "the utility set of the scrapper primaries", so I figured playing it more for utility than a straight up damage juggernaut might be fun.
Like I said though most likely I'll have my "fun" build and another build for more intense gameplay.
I gotta say though...DM/Regen is a headache to slot. I probably shouldn't try to plan out my entire build with little experience with the sets but I've been able to do it for all the other characters I've made. I decided to take it slower and just get my build situated up to like lvl 40-42, but I'm still up in the air on a few powers about just how many slots they need/what to slot them with etc.
Took the time to put together a build and I'm actually quite pleased with it, so I'm editing this post to include it instead of my previous crappy generic build...
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Presence
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Darkness Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg(A), F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg(3), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(15), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(34), S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(46)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(7), Heal-I(7)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(3), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(19), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(A), H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Tr'ge-Heal/Rchg(5), Heal-I(23), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg(A), F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg(13), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(37), S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(46)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg(A), F'dSmite-Dmg/EndRdx(9), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Dmg-I(17), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(34), H'zdH-Heal(40)
Level 10: Quick Recovery -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(11), EndMod-I(11)
Level 12: Touch of Fear -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A)
Level 16: Integration -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(A), Acc-I(19), Dmg-I(29), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 20: Dull Pain -- H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(A), H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Tr'ge-Heal/Rchg(21), Heal-I(23), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 22: Provoke -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Intimidate -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(A), Acc-I(27), Dmg-I(27), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 30: Invoke Panic -- N'mare-Acc/Rchg(A), N'mare-Acc/Fear/Rchg(31), N'mare-Acc/Fear(31), Hror-Acc/Fear/Rchg(40), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg(A), F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg(33), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(33), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(36), S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(43)
Level 35: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Petrifying Gaze -- EoCur-Acc/Rchg(A), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(42), Hold-I(43), Hold-I(46)
Level 44: Torrent -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(45), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 47: Tenebrous Tentacles -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(48), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(48), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(50), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Resilience -- ResDam-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Any thoughts or comments are welcome. Yes this is just a cheap frankenslot build for the most part.
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I want to address something here, because I've been called down for this before (I believe the exact words were "Dude ur a scrapper build for dmg"). |
Originally Posted by Harkness
While I agree the general notion of "play what you enjoy, not what everyone else says you should play", I've found it a lot less enjoyable to unwittingly push ATs into what they're bad at than what they're good at. If you know you're making an odd build, enjoy it, but if it plays funky, that's why.
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The person who wrote the guide Neg_Rogue was talking about here:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Neg_Rogue
Well, one of the guides I read on DM described it as "the utility set of the scrapper primaries", so I figured playing it more for utility than a straight up damage juggernaut might be fun.
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All too often in the scrapper forums we like to talk (or in my case - read) about maxed-out, AV-killing end-game builds, and I think this leads to the impression that this is the only way to build a scrapper. Now don't misunderstand me: it's the only way to build a scrapper who can solo Archvillains, but soloing Archvillains is not the kind of help Neg_Rogue was asking for (and it's also not the kind of help my guide was meant to give).
Bearing that in mind, using the presence pool - or any "controllery" powers on a scrapper is not so much a means of making a scrapper into a pseudo controller, but as a "controllery" means of doing more damage. Some folks might be surprised to hear me say that a scrapper should focus on doing damage, but there it is.
There is, however, more than one way to be efficient at it. Combat in this game has a rhythm. It begins when a team of players (or a solo player) chooses a target and fires off that alpha strike. The individual ai's of the spawn respond by choosing their targets and doing the same. Players choose targets based on specific criteria, and mobs choose targets based on a programming formula incorporating the most recent damage done to them, taunt effects, threat level, etc.
From there it's a recharge/target/fire rhythm. A player's power will start recharging, he/she will select a target - whether the same one or a new one - and fire off another power. Same with the ai. This is the rhythm I'm talking about. From here it would be more or less mathematics that determines the outcome, except that there are also added elements that disrupt that rhythm. If your rhythm is disrupted enough, your damage output slows, and the mathematics work against you.
Now if you're rich and/or very experienced, you build for IO's that give speed and recharge, with a few damage bonuses thrown in with the hope that you can weigh the math so heavily in your favor that it won't matter if your rhythm gets interrupted. Throw in some defense bonuses and you're covered from even that.
If you - like me - are an average to slightly-above-average player, you don't have the influence to buy the expensive sets needed to accomplish the above. That's where utility comes in. By bringing more utility into your build in the forms of what few controls a scrapper can get, you're not looking to control the spawn or even the individual mob - you're looking to break their rhythm while at the same time preserving your own.
In the invoke panic example, the way it works is this: You jump into a spawn and hit Invoke Panic, and it fears roughly half to two-thirds of the minions. What you've just done is given up the small advantage of the first burst of damage in return for putting that initial burst off and cutting their responding damage by about a third (considering the bosses and lt's won't be feared and do more damage). This means that while those minions are feared you're heavily outweighing your opponents in the damage equation. If you can keep the spawn off balance by repeatedly interrupting their rhythm, you can virtually guarantee victory.
To a point.There's a fine line between using control to enable you to deal damage more effectively and giving up your position as a damage dealer for the sake of a couple of semi-fancy tricks repeated ad-nauseum in every spawn. Never forget your primary role as a damage dealer. While I'm sure no one creates a scrapper with that in mind - and no one in this thread has said anything resembling that - I feel like it needs to be emphasized because it's easy to slip into that habit without even knowing it.
The best rhythm-breaking powers scrappers get are passive, like Cloak of Fear. Turn it on, leave it on, let it do its thing. Click powers like Invoke panic, Intimidate, Provoke, Confront, and any of the holds/immobs in the epics have more of a learning curve, and knowing when and how often to use them is key.
But please don't anyone read my guide - or anything I post, for that matter - and think you can make your scrapper into a mini-controller by sacrificing damage, speed or defense for a few tricks. They're useful tricks, if used properly, but in the end you're still a damage dealer.
Bearing all of that in mind, Neg_Rogue, I'll have a look at your build in depth (if someone hasn't done so already while I"ve been typing this) but off the top of my head please don't frankenslot Invoke Panic. Put five Glimpse of the Abyss in there for the recharge bonus and call it a day. And don't bother slotting the other two at all. I'll look at the rest shortly.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I have good news and bad news.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
I don't know something about jumping into a spawn, hitting Invoke Panic then hitting one boss with ToF and the other with Intimidate just sounded really cool to me, but as someone else pointed out Scrappers aren't Controllers. It probably just had more to do with me never seeing a use for the presence pool and finally seeing a use for it that would make me a unique snowflake :P
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The bad news is you're not going to be a unique snowflake.
The good news is I find doing that pretty much as fun as you describe :P
Yeah, it might not be the greatest min-maxed build around, but it's still unusual, and it suits the character and my playstyle. Which, at the end of the day, is more fun for me than just hitting things over and over.
I also took the ranged hold from the dark mastery epic pool instead of torrent for even more controllery goodness, and is useful with intimidate to shut down annoying lieutentants in a spawn.
At the end of the day, do whatever is more enjoyable, and certainly the secondary build idea is an excellent way of finding out.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
"....so I headbutted the blind chick."
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[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / transference.org / xenogamous.com / wytedragon.net / quantam sufficit ]
Thanks Smiling_Joe. I have to admit I was getting frustrated with some of the responses I was getting. At this point I'm not really concerned with making some "crazy uber powerful" scrapper. Sure, I might be eventually, but like I said that's the power of dual builds 
Anyway, I do have a couple more questions for you...
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So..would throwing out ToF/Intimidate right after IP to fear bosses be seen as crossing that fine line, or would it be better to work them in after a few other initial attacks first?|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
To a point.There's a fine line between using control to enable you to deal damage more effectively and giving up your position as a damage dealer for the sake of a couple of semi-fancy tricks repeated ad-nauseum in every spawn. Never forget your primary role as a damage dealer. While I'm sure no one creates a scrapper with that in mind - and no one in this thread has said anything resembling that - I feel like it needs to be emphasized because it's easy to slip into that habit without even knowing it.
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Quote:
| Bearing all of that in mind, Neg_Rogue, I'll have a look at your build in depth (if someone hasn't done so already while I"ve been typing this) but off the top of my head please don't frankenslot Invoke Panic. Put five Glimpse of the Abyss in there for the recharge bonus and call it a day. And don't bother slotting the other two at all. I'll look at the rest shortly. |
Keep in mind that I'm the type of person that likes to get a decent build put together before I really start leveling my toon, so my DM/Regen is still pre-10 at this point xD
Quote:
You're going to want to use the IP>ToF combo right at the start simply because it will allow you to prevent all of that damage. Using it late doesn't really hinder you much, but it's kinda pointless to do damage first and then control when the target is half dead. Your best bet would be to jump in, pop MoG, use ToF on the boss while letting everyone group up around you, and then dropping IP for spawn controlleryness. Keep in mind that fear won't keep from from attacking like a hold will. If you're dealing damage to them, they'll break the fear every 5 seconds or so to throw an attack your way.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
So..would throwing out ToF/Intimidate right after IP to fear bosses be seen as crossing that fine line, or would it be better to work them in after a few other initial attacks first?
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Quote:
| Didn't you say Glimpse of the Abyss was a pretty expensive set though? If so I probably wouldn't slot it in until 50 because I'm very poor. The build I posted was more about getting the most out of my powers, not really about set bonuses. I'll start thinking more about set bonuses at 50. |
Quote:
Umbral pretty much nailed that one on the head, but I'll expand a bit on when you could use intimidate and/or Touch of Fear.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
So..would throwing out ToF/Intimidate right after IP to fear bosses be seen as crossing that fine line, or would it be better to work them in after a few other initial attacks first?
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One of the best uses I found for intimidate on a DM/ scrapper is as a teammate's panic button. I team mostly with my wife, and when I was on my DM/Regen she was on her Emp/Elec Defender. Needless to say, there were times when she'd shout across the couch that she needed help.
I found it very handy to select her name in the team window, hit intimidate or provoke, and go back to killing. The mob attacking her would cower in fear just long enough to permit her to make an escape and for its aggro target to switch.
Touch of Fear is best used on annoying mobs like mezzers and sappers. Especially sappers. You can use it on a boss if you like, but it'll only bring your dps down.
However, ToF also carries a hefty 12% (unenhanced) ToHit debuff that lasts an obscene amount of time. If you're ever in trouble from a boss, elite boss, or some other single target, it is possible to temporarily insert ToF into your attack chain to almost floor their chances of hitting you, giving your regen enough time to recover from a damage spike.
Coordinating them with IP so that they stack in the way you described, while fun, isn't the best way to deal with a spawn. Let your friendly neighborhood Mind or Illusion Controller fear the spawn. All you're interested in doing with powers like that is breaking their rhythm.
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Didn't you say Glimpse of the Abyss was a pretty expensive set though? If so I probably wouldn't slot it in until 50 because I'm very poor. The build I posted was more about getting the most out of my powers, not really about set bonuses. I'll start thinking more about set bonuses at 50. Keep in mind that I'm the type of person that likes to get a decent build put together before I really start leveling my toon, so my DM/Regen is still pre-10 at this point xD |
As far as getting the most out of your powers, I honestly think that with the exception of Siphon Life, you'll be just fine slotting generic IO's and whatever appealing recipes drop.
Speaking of Siphon Life, there was a discussion here not too long ago that covered the best ways to slot it. It's still around, but if your search fu is weak I did summarize it in my guide (with full credit to the posters, of course).
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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This actually confused me more. So, Umbral pretty much hit the nail on the head in that I do want to start a fight with IP+ToF, but at the end you say that isn't the best thing to do?|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Umbral pretty much nailed that one on the head, but I'll expand a bit on when you could use intimidate and/or Touch of Fear.
One of the best uses I found for intimidate on a DM/ scrapper is as a teammate's panic button. I team mostly with my wife, and when I was on my DM/Regen she was on her Emp/Elec Defender. Needless to say, there were times when she'd shout across the couch that she needed help. I found it very handy to select her name in the team window, hit intimidate or provoke, and go back to killing. The mob attacking her would cower in fear just long enough to permit her to make an escape and for its aggro target to switch. Touch of Fear is best used on annoying mobs like mezzers and sappers. Especially sappers. You can use it on a boss if you like, but it'll only bring your dps down. However, ToF also carries a hefty 12% (unenhanced) ToHit debuff that lasts an obscene amount of time. If you're ever in trouble from a boss, elite boss, or some other single target, it is possible to temporarily insert ToF into your attack chain to almost floor their chances of hitting you, giving your regen enough time to recover from a damage spike. Coordinating them with IP so that they stack in the way you described, while fun, isn't the best way to deal with a spawn. Let your friendly neighborhood Mind or Illusion Controller fear the spawn. All you're interested in doing with powers like that is breaking their rhythm. |
Also, how does using ToF on a boss lower my dps any more than using it on a mezzer or sapper? Mezzers and sappers are lts right? (Sorry, not familiar with high lvl mobs since the highest I've gotten in this game was 45..I have alt-itis something fierce in CoH...). I mean, it has the same animation time on a boss as it does another mob so I don't understand why you say using it would only lower my dps on bosses?
Quote:
Sorry - I thought you were talking about this:|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
This actually confused me more. So, Umbral pretty much hit the nail on the head in that I do want to start a fight with IP+ToF, but at the end you say that isn't the best thing to do?
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Quote:
| I don't know something about jumping into a spawn, hitting Invoke Panic then hitting one boss with ToF and the other with Intimidate just sounded really cool to me, but as someone else pointed out Scrappers aren't Controllers. It probably just had more to do with me never seeing a use for the presence pool and finally seeing a use for it that would make me a unique snowflake :P |
Quote:
| Also, how does using ToF on a boss lower my dps any more than using it on a mezzer or sapper? Mezzers and sappers are lts right? (Sorry, not familiar with high lvl mobs since the highest I've gotten in this game was 45..I have alt-itis something fierce in CoH...). I mean, it has the same animation time on a boss as it does another mob so I don't understand why you say using it would only lower my dps on bosses? |
A boss is a longer battle, though, requiring more than one attack chain cycles. When you insert ToF into your attack chain, it eats up animation time that could be used for attacks that do damage, thus bringing your dps down. Using ToF in boss fights is best done at the beginning and not again unless absolutely necessary.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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No. I wasn't thinking of using it regularly, just at the start to stack with IP to fear the boss to reduce his damage output. It was never my intention to use this pool to somehow increase my own damage, or "rhythm"..whatever you call it. I just thought it would make a good mitigation tool both for solo and on teams. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Usually, when you use ToF on a mezzer or sapper, you either interrupt their alpha attack, giving you time to two-shot them, or you move on to the boss and let someone else take them out. In either case, you'll never have to cycle through your attack chain more than once on them, and so no loss of dps.
A boss is a longer battle, though, requiring more than one attack chain cycles. When you insert ToF into your attack chain, it eats up animation time that could be used for attacks that do damage, thus bringing your dps down. Using ToF in boss fights is best done at the beginning and not again unless absolutely necessary. |
I think you guys might be overanalyzing my intentions. I'm not some super-smart scientist looking to carefully mix together the right chemicals to achieve the perfect result. I'm more like a 5 year-old with a lollipop in one hand and a stick of dynamite in the other....if that makes sense (it probably doesn't).
If the fighting pool doesn't feel right to you, you CAN skip it. It isn't ESSENTIAL by any means. It's just good. This game isn't so hard that you can't play what you find fun instead of what some number crunchers tell you is optimal. Your friends are right about that.
The best way to find out if something works for you is try it out yourself.