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I am not sure what you're saying that went wrong at second attempt, as I wasn't there:
The one who dropped or the empath not doing his/her best?
Anyway, I am up for third attempt (my second), if I know when will be done beforehand, I am able to make it and you still want me...
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Before any pulls were made I said pre-hand that in a worse case scenario should all 4 come, we wouldn't have trouble doing them all together as long as the squishies stayed ranged but with 80ft as a guideline, its a guideline to have people stay far enough back from 2 shots mainly.
If squishies stayed back, then the only ones needing fort with good aggro control are those in melee. The Tanks and the Scrappers, you can pretty much perma fort 3 at a time, an Emp having to choose which 3 as a result of controllers in the mix is not good. Mix Squishies needing help and any distraction, then, with imperativeness on Tank, the scrappers lost out on much needed proper intention and it was the scrappers that were to me, let down.
A squishie not buffed was up their butts and died near their feet.
"Unless you are equipped to be in a certain area then don't be found so far in it."
Both Tanks added me to global, both tanks know they are capable of getting the MoSTF done more than comfortably, your tank Saxtus can tank the MoSTF more than comfortably, between enough people gaining enough experience to making the right tactical decisions no matter what crops up, it'll get done.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I'm unlikely to be available this Sunday 
due to an existing commitment as well as a house full of people. Which is a shame, because I'm really seriously up for this - having seen how well we did last night, I know it is an achievable goal, even with such a disparate team.
I have to admit that on last night's attempt, the spot where it fell down was when we had all 4 AVs in one spot. No issue with the tank, who did an absolutely bang-up job, but for something like MoSTF, where the aim is not to rush through it, but instead to ensure success, needlessly taking on all 4 AVs simultaneously with what amounted to a PuG TF team was what spelled disaster for us.
I'm sure it can be done, but if it doesn't need to be done, I see no reason to do it.
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4 AVs on one spot is nothing to Defiant players I've teamed with. It didn't have to be a big deal last night. People can get things done by making the right tactical decisions on an outcome.
Live, learn, get over it but you really don't always have to keep splitting them. The tank was happy with all 4 anyway. He was buffed well enough.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
While I am certain that there is no problem with fighting 4 AVs on one spot, since there was no issue with the tank handling it last night, and you did a fine job of keeping him tanking, but here's the question:
Would it have been easier if we'd taken them one or two at a time? Would you have had more time to heal up anyone who accidentally strayed into range at an inopportune moment?
My point is that I am not disputing if it is possible. I'm sure it is. I'm 100% positive that it is. But it is a risk. It increases the risk of someone making a poor tactical decision, because communication from the empath is reduced to effectively nil while he works to keep the tank active. I believe that the increased risk is not worth the time-saving that taking on all 4 AVs represents. And that's all it is - the time taken to pull. Because while focussing on a single AV, the others are not being significantly harmed. There is effectively zero improvement in efficiency on taking them down, except that you are saving anything from 30 seconds up to 3 minutes per AV after the first. I would rather we had taken 9 minutes more and succeeded than failing as we did last night. I would rather have taken an hour more.
So, the important question is this: If we had not had all 4 AVs at once, do you think we would have succeeded, given that it would have represented less pressure on the tank and the Empath, and therefore the death that occured may have been avoided because the Empath would have had more leeway on healing the damaged player?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Would it have been easier if we'd taken them one or two at a time?
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With that team make up? Yes sometimes and no sometimes but in many cases it should be much slower. You get no guarantees doing anything. All 4 together can increase your speed. Ideally the squishies would of been back to whatever their max range was as I worked out even 67ft is still closer than needs be most of the time. One could then properly maintain fort cycles on all those in melee without squishies to worry about. AoEs are heavy by any single AV, if your not equipped to take them then you can die.
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Would you have had more time to heal up anyone who accidentally strayed into range at an inopportune moment?
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People were spread, ideally you would have melee in melee and those ranged in a tight group around the empath. You can't play everyones characters for them. Positioning is important and timing is important when it comes to knowing when to enter a threat zone and when not to enter a threat zone. AVs are predictable, the AI is constantly being ridiculed by many but I think some of it is just right for people atm.
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My point is that I am not disputing if it is possible. I'm sure it is. I'm 100% positive that it is. But it is a risk. It increases the risk of someone making a poor tactical decision, because communication from the empath is reduced to effectively nil while he works to keep the tank active.
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Tactics were discussed before hand if the worst case scenario comes up. Enough was said, what could of been added was for range toons to stay by me for buffs and in all the people coming back to the fight after seeing how easy the tank had it no one came to me. I could of concentrated range heals and fort on those in melee with no distraction. I did have tank set as waypoint I did have a rough idea of being too close myself and within 70ft was definitely it, but 80 is max range of most powers ie fort. All AVs backs should of been to everyone without saying imo.
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I believe that the increased risk is not worth the time-saving that taking on all 4 AVs represents. And that's all it is - the time taken to pull. Because while focussing on a single AV, the others are not being significantly harmed. There is effectively zero improvement in efficiency on taking them down, except that you are saving anything from 30 seconds up to 3 minutes per AV after the first. I would rather we had taken 9 minutes more and succeeded than failing as we did last night. I would rather have taken an hour more.
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Last night could of failed anyway on the basis that it was a PuG, the thing with a good PuG is they play together again and put things right the second time and lose the PuG thing. Squishies needed only to stay more ranged as was said but it was a PuG capable of doing it.
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So, the important question is this: If we had not had all 4 AVs at once, do you think we would have succeeded, given that it would have represented less pressure on the tank and the Empath, and therefore the death that occured may have been avoided because the Empath would have had more leeway on healing the damaged player?
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Pressure on Tank can = 0, pressure on Emp with all ppl positioned well can = 0, I do play both. The one thing that throws me is positioning, as a Tank I can offer range so that blasters don't need to be in the splash area and yet they are not only there but behind me as well for more splash area ie cones.
As a team you could of done it either way and failed it either way. I am all up for embracing stretch in the process. The tank liked it that way, it could of been done that way, the scrappers are the main ones I not only feel sorry for but on reflection would apologize too easily for the distraction of the aftermath. I should of just ignored comments and carried on, not losing my fort cycle.
There was no waiting for me to buff ppl prior to flier so one can assume that people were just rushing to the end after. The stray bane at Recluse went and got someone squishie. With 2 Tanks there didn't have to be a stray and had there been or not if things went well up to that point, we won't know.
Ultimately there is for a start, safer positions to be in when low on numbers of who can be buffed.
I don't think mistakes should be looked on badly, people need to learn something from them, perhaps all 4 AVs given a PuG was a stretch, but its nothing I would lose sleep over.
The entire team is capable of doing the MoSTF. Capable of doing it in under 90mins. Its a goal imo. Why just take the badge and run? Well cos you would like it I guess..Okay next time if there is a next time we go for 1 at a time, I personally would love to see great pulls.
You saw how little healing the tank needed, thats cos powerboosted fort is so nice. Single AVs can mean a scrapper gets it. If no one talks to me I won't be asking myself "When was the last fort and whose next?" Idea! I will make a Macro up that tells me, if I say "Fort on $$target" I won't forget.
A macro to get rangers near me when its better would help too.
Either way when it comes to pulls making sure stacked CMs are on tanks is helpful. People don't seem to do that they just want to start but Mezz protection doesn't have to be needed.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
What powersets the tank had?
My stoney was dying in a couple of tries, as she couldn't be healed fast enough...
Oh! Sgt, I am up for that at Sunday, once again choose what you want (list of available heroes is the same as before).
I am surprised, its about buffs and then everyone playing in a way so that people with the buffs are the only ones that need them. Healing should be occasional.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I don't know if you noticed it at our first try, but Sgt couldn't be healed fast enough when was keeping Lord Recluse occupied and started visiting the hospital until I've begun to perma-SB him and his empath...
Well yes, it's all about buffs, but sometimes one empath isn't enough from his/her own, even with a stone tanker.
I'm sorry to intrude on your thread, but i was reading with interest about your last attempt. I had an emotional time trying obtaining the badge myself and i'd like to offer some advice for what it's worth.
This comment....
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... if it doesn't need to be done, I see no reason to do it.
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is the key in my opnion. Don't take risks ...
Don't use AoE's when defeating the CoT and Vines. (we had a tanker taunting the tree for us while we cleared)
Don't use Nukes.
Don't take on more than one AV at a time.
Don't rush.
We also took time to get a tray of inspirations EVERY time one of us got low.
and very importantly we were responsible for our own health, it's not up to the healer to keep you alive. If you get hit - take a green straight away.
I wish you all the very best of luck in the next attempt.
If i can help at all then let me know.
@TidgyTigeress.
Tidgy
---------------
Very sound advice.
There is no need to stress ourselves when the objective is already stressful.
Hmmm, I want to organize a "MoSTF try" before the next one at Sunday by Sgt happens.
This time I will pose as a tanker.
Friday 1-May-2009 @ 7pm UK time
Who's on and with what?
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I don't know if you noticed it at our first try, but Sgt couldn't be healed fast enough when was keeping Lord Recluse occupied and started visiting the hospital until I've begun to perma-SB him and his empath...
Well yes, it's all about buffs, but sometimes one empath isn't enough from his/her own, even with a stone tanker.
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You are right as they aren't all built the same way. My empath grants greater +Def.
I don't find any of it stressful.
All 4 AVs is something people can learn to do, too much of a jump for now? Fine.
I did say to ppl how far back to be.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I can do Friday.
Any unbuffed Squishies who could be better of ranged should not be within 25ft of Mako, ideally 80ft of Scirroco but singly "really" 15ft, ideally more than 20ft of Black Scorpion or Ghost Widow and never around the back of the Tank. So stay 25ft back atleast or you could be asking for trouble anyway as was the case.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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and never around the back of the Tank
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This is a general advice that I can't stress well enough and applies everywhere!
Wolverines out at the cinemas + american idol results, so turn up will most likely be bleak.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
That will filter out participants for sure...
I'll be there and hope for some to turn up.
Worst case scenario: We fail. 
Then of course there will be all those that will be getting 0-50 in 6-10 hours (literally) as many toons as they can before changes to the MA system are made.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
That's reassuring...
At least I know what taunting is and there is a slight chance to know how to use it too!
I showed up with my toon and fell asleep mins b4 7 I think, GL as I just not well, bedtime for me is supposed to be in another 6-8hrs 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Your New Dawn gone offline due to AFK a little after 7pm. I didn't knew what to do due to no answer to my tells and stood up the team till 8pm. The team had a blaster, 4 controllers, a warshade and me as tanker. We added one more controller (an empath for me) at 8pm.
I failed the team (once again): I thought that the tree is tauntable but it turns out that you can only target it and not interfere with it while vines are still up, so my plan had a big hole in it and we lost one of the trollers because of it.
The best way to not lose someone at the tree probably is to send squishies to clean the back and sides of it and let the others to clean the front of it as it shoots randomly to those in it's sight, even if the tanker is in front of it and do some AoEs...
I also died few times at last mission so we didn't have even a chance.
It took us 3:33:14 and we had 115 defeats total as we were unable to separate inner circle at first and then I had not enough buffage at Recluse...
It was better that you weren't there, truly you didn't missed anything remarkable.
Thankfully I didn't listen to the team that begged me to abort at last mission and at least we finished the darn thing.
P.S. I see the bright side: At least two teammates, never done STF before. They saw it and they liked it!
Shame I was feeling unwell yesterday, I had only been up a few hours like 4 or something and yet was so tired. I got there and waited and because my mind wasn't occupied I switched off and slept.
When we did it, we told the Tank to make himself obvious in front of the tree. We entered the vine field from the side and with a consideration that it had 180 degrees of view it was more like North West West of the tree in the room rather than West. You were told where to enter when you died on to your squishie making your defeat a case of bad luck and simply following orders. I thought at the time we should be further around. The whole 180 degrees northern arc needs to be clear, then range shots into the southern 180 degree area with perhaps melee toons cleaning the middle. The whole time we did the tank was Mr Obvious to that tree. The point at which I told people to enter was safe but in doing the bottom half we were seeing vines regrow so it did get a little panicky. Assume the tree can shoot sideways and so be further back than that.
I was on that toon in IP as its preferable but could of changed to suit what other people brought and balance things about a bit.
I am actually not playing the game or any game atm as my energy is a bit low atm. Could be hayfever I dunno.
So many defeats trying to split them is why I would advocate "tank the lot" situations where possible and for us it was. We had nowhere near that amount of defeats with the tank them all situation. Without distractions I would of gone on to fort cycle the scrappers better but I was not too worried as we had lost from a controller planting, from being up their butts, my very first question was "Why were you there?". Granted in pulling, if it aint 1 coming or just 2 easily done together ones coming, then everyone needs to boot it. If people don't then you either have to be herding them up or formating them in the teams favour, but as it goes no matter what you set the safe areas to stand may not be the areas people choose to stand.
I choose to do it for fun so upon failure there is absolutely no problems for me, I don't get the slightest bit ticked. What's said by person with star should stand imo and if they say don't push the red button and someone does then I see a problem as that's being warned of a mistake and not learning from it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Tonight, Sunday 3-Mar-2009, at 7pm UK time, we will do another MoSTF attempt.
If you want to participate, please post here your global and your level 50 hero powersets.
Thank you.
We failed once again but we had great time!
Next MoSTF attempts from me won't posted in the EU web boards to avoid clashing with the current ones.
Sincere apologies to Sgt. for hijacking his thread. 
All the way to almost defeating LR and someone has the worse kind of luck. Dead funny, I did say rare event to see that happen and it was. Well I got a humour side! We could of stayed in and pleaded for a GM thinking about it but too late now, should be v easy next time and Saxtus + everyone else barely needed healing which is good for me cos I poo at it!
Prolly best to have own thread for this btw.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I'm unlikely to be available this Sunday
due to an existing commitment as well as a house full of people. Which is a shame, because I'm really seriously up for this - having seen how well we did last night, I know it is an achievable goal, even with such a disparate team.
I have to admit that on last night's attempt, the spot where it fell down was when we had all 4 AVs in one spot. No issue with the tank, who did an absolutely bang-up job, but for something like MoSTF, where the aim is not to rush through it, but instead to ensure success, needlessly taking on all 4 AVs simultaneously with what amounted to a PuG TF team was what spelled disaster for us.
I'm sure it can be done, but if it doesn't need to be done, I see no reason to do it.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.