Comparative Analysis of PBAoE and Ranged AoE Holds
By
makerian,
Posted on: 2006-12-11 17:43 in Player Guides
i never knew...
Thanks for posting this, I found it through Zombie_Man's Guide to Guides. Your diagram is a good visual. Even without a better radius (which empirically feels right but never paid it much notice), the ability to choose a spot other than an awkwardly placed mob is really nice sometimes, particularly if it is pre-aggro and the mobs are in their initial configuration.
I have played every Controller except mind to 50 and have a Plant and Ice dominator as well. I tend to prefer PBAoE holds primarily because of the ability to strategically place the hold. Occasionally it can backfire (triggers too early or you die before it takes effect).
As you mentioned with Ice and Fire, there is good reason to be in melee in the first place. And with Illusion it at least makes getting into Melee pretty easy. I also play a Grav/Storm and even though I can use my ranged hold, I still find that I often play in Melee to get the benefit of Thunder Clap on some groups (particularly after I toss them somewhere with WH).
Playing with Force Field or Storm (and usually Acrobatics) can increase the survivability of a player that wants to maximize the use of a pbaoe hold. Also, of course, you have team buffs and inspirations to help you in those situations. Finally, some travel powers are probably better suited for this than others. I usually use Super Speed (because I still like Hasten), but used to use Teleport on a couple builds, which can work nicely. On open maps or outdoors Super Jump can be used very effectively too.
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Thanks for posting this, I found it through Zombie_Man's Guide to Guides. Your diagram is a good visual. Even without a better radius (which empirically feels right but never paid it much notice), the ability to choose a spot other than an awkwardly placed mob is really nice sometimes, particularly if it is pre-aggro and the mobs are in their initial configuration.
I have played every Controller except mind to 50 and have a Plant and Ice dominator as well. I tend to prefer PBAoE holds primarily because of the ability to strategically place the hold. Occasionally it can backfire (triggers too early or you die before it takes effect).
As you mentioned with Ice and Fire, there is good reason to be in melee in the first place. And with Illusion it at least makes getting into Melee pretty easy. I also play a Grav/Storm and even though I can use my ranged hold, I still find that I often play in Melee to get the benefit of Thunder Clap on some groups (particularly after I toss them somewhere with WH).
Playing with Force Field or Storm (and usually Acrobatics) can increase the survivability of a player that wants to maximize the use of a pbaoe hold. Also, of course, you have team buffs and inspirations to help you in those situations. Finally, some travel powers are probably better suited for this than others. I usually use Super Speed (because I still like Hasten), but used to use Teleport on a couple builds, which can work nicely. On open maps or outdoors Super Jump can be used very effectively too.
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Definitely good points, and much more succinct than what I wrote! hehe
PBAoE Holds are NOT strictly inferior to Ranged AoE Holds.
Let me preface this discussion with some of my experience; I have a level 50 Fire/Kin Controller, 43 Illusion/FF Controller, and 36 Plant/Psi Dominator, so I have a fair amount of experience with both Ranged and PBAoE Holds.
Thinking otherwise is a widespread misconception that I'd like to seek to correct. Many forum goers as well as in-game heroes that I have encountered advocate ranged AoE Holds--such as Total Domination or Gravity Distortion Field-- as being inherently superior to PBAoE Holds--such as Cinders or Glacier. It's "common knowledge" that Ranged AoE Holds offer more safety than PBAoE Holds, and, ostensibly, the same control. Thus, with the net benefit of safety, Ranged AoE Holds are considered the better powers.
This may seem rather trivial or obvious to some of you, but I think prevalent misunderstanding warrant the topic's discussion.
In terms of AoE Control, PBAoE and Ranged Holds are not equal. In many situations, PBAoE Holds are capable of affecting many more enemies than their Ranged counterpart.
1). PBAoEs have a numerically greater radius than Ranged AoE Holds(refer to City of Data and check the various Controller and Dominator AoE Holds). PBAoE Holds have a radius of 30 feet while Ranged AoE Holds have a radius of 20 feet, numbers which I have verified in game myself with Flash, Cinders, and Vines. This is a critical aspect that I bypassed in my initial discussions of the topic, but an increased radius of 10 feet is huge; keep in mind that its in terms of circular area (actually, AoE powers go beyond two-dimensional boundaries, so this doesnt account for an even greater disparity in terms of mobs that may be above or below where the power is cast. But that is a rare enough occasion [usually limited to enemies that fly] that Ill be excluding it in this comparison for purposes of simplification). Ranged AoE Holds do not have 66.7% the holding potential of PBAoE Holds as a first quick glance might show by comparing their radii, but rather 44.4% in terms of circular area. The total circular area covered by a Ranged AoE Hold can be calculated as being (20)^2(3.1415 ) or about 1256.6 square feet while a PBAoE Hold can be calculated as being (30)^2(3.1415 ) or about 2827.35 square feet.
2). PBAoEs have superior circle-center placement that allow them to geometrically capture more foes with correct positioning, excluding the fact that PBAoE Holds have a naturally larger radius. Refer to crude diagram #1: click.*
Here, we can see two frequently occuring situations where a PBAoE Hold surpasses a Ranged AoE Hold in terms of control. Assume those cute little black dots are villains, and the large circles the area covered by the AoE Hold.
I). We have a common scenario where a spawn is split up into two effective groups, due to its generation, wandering AI, or more likely, interaction with players. In this instance, the Ranged AoE Hold is best anchored along one of the enemies of the right side of the left group. In doing so, the entirety of the left group is held, but the radius of the Ranged AoE Hold isn't enough to catch any of the enemies in the right group.
The PBAoE Hold, however, is able to encompass all enemies of both groups because it is player anchored rather than enemy anchored. With a bit of clever use, a player can use their PBAoE Hold to hold all enemies of both groups, and even in more haphazard use, PBAoE Holds will tend to contain more enemies than their Ranged counterparts.
II). In this scenario, we have a similar possible instance where PBAoE Holds can contain more enemies than Ranged ones. This is an example where there is a main body of enemies, but various stragglers randomly dotted around the main group that have moved to where they are due to AI, player interaction, etc. The Ranged AoE Hold can, again, contain the majority of the enemies, but fails to hold anyone not a part of the main body of enemies.
The PBAoE Hold, on the other hand, does a much better job holding both the main group as well as nearly all of the stragglers. The ability to move the area of the hold based on the player rather than the enemies, again, proves to be more fruitful.
Now, to address the main reason as to why Ranged AoE Holds can be equal to or better than PBAoE Holds in some situations, and the justification by most of the player base for preferring them. This issue is obviously that of safety. Admittedly, Ranged AoE Holds -do- provide more safety than PBAoE Holds, since you can cast them before the enemies are aggroed, avoid melee attacks, skirt AoE attacks, etc. Often times, with knowledge of their radius, you can safely cast them from their edge, staying out of range of most of these dangers, as per crude diagram #2, which represents an instance in which an AoE Hold and PBAoE Hold can equally hold the group: click . Coordinating a Ranged AoE Hold on a spawn followed by a single target hold on the boss in the spawn to hold everything in two successive strikes is usually more user friendly than attempting the same feat with a PBAoE Hold.
Some other quick conditions to consider that equalize the AoE Holds or elevate one above another depending on the situation:
-Sets that may find themselves in melee anyways, such as Fire/ for Hotfeet, Ice/ for Arctic Air, or Dominators for their melee attacks, will likely find PBAoE Holds easier to use.
-Both AoE Holds have a maximum cap of 10 targets. Therefore, the ability of PBAoE Holds to incapacitate more targets wont matter if both holds affect 10 enemies upon application. (Its worth noting, however, that even in the presence of 10+ mobs, the greater area of effect of PBAoE Holds increases the chance of actually reaching that limit of 10 foes, a slight benefit considering the inherent accuracy of AoE Hold powers)
* (Take, for instance, diagram #1, where the PBAoE Hold has an area of effect capable of touching 12 mobs, giving it a greater chance to reach the cap, but can ultimately only hold ten of them).
This guide focuses primarily on PBAoE Holds because there is a greater lack of understanding about the powers, whereas most anyone can readily recognize the benefits offered by Ranged AoE Holds. Any additional information would be great regarding either type of AoE Hold. Thorough evidence is preferred to support your assertions; I know that its probably a bit much to request anyone, for example, to compare a Ranged AoE Holds ability to hold x number of enemies to a PBAoE Holds ability to hold y number of enemies in relatively equal team settings and then compare how often the safety of the Ranged AoE Hold proved useful, but this would likely be far more helpful than any anecdotal support. This is probably a task I will get to some time over the holiday break.
Having access to Ranged AoE Holds is definitely not an unequivocal benefit; both PBAoE Holds and Ranged AoE Holds have their situational uses.