Darth's Guide to Ice/Em Tanks in PvP

Darth's Guide to Ice/EM tanks in PvP

So you are one of the neophyte Ice/Em tanks I see when leveling my alts huh? You think you're good enough to scrap with the big boys? Well, here's a guide to help all you young Icers get going and give you an idea of what to expect in pvp.

About me: College student, I play in my spare time. Ice-Cubed, my Ice/em tank, is my favorite toon ever. I took him on in i3 or i4, as my 3rd or 4th tank. I was impressed by another tank, Z3ro Coo1, whose team I was invited to. I never saw him while in the team, but he herded so damned well I thought he was a kick-butt fire tank till I bothered to check his info, He later took the time to tell me he did very well in pvp too, and had me observe a duel or two when I was skeptical. Also teamed with him in regular PvE missions and was equally impressed with how gimped he was NOT. Later on, since I thought herding was great fun for the tank, if, perhaps, not for the rest of the team, I decided to roll up an Ice tank myself. From lvl 20 on, he was my main until the massive nerfs of ED and i5 were brought to bear, at which point I left the game for a bit. Later returned and took up Ice again. He is currently lvl 41 on virtue, and I bother to level him when I can take a break from pvp, which is what I really enjoy as our "end game" content. I duel in the arena, in the zones, in teams and solo.


Why is Ice good in pvp?

There are many ways to answer this, but the truth involves the concept of tempo and the Ice tanks ability to control it. Tempo is the rate at which things occur in a duel. An SG mate of mine, Chucifer, wrote an in-depth analysis of tempo and it's affects for our SG, and reading that, I understood why my Ice/Em was strong. Incidentally, it's also the reason Stalkers do so well in zones.

Ok, so back to tempo. It's the reason you hear things like "burst damage is good in pvp" and "Blasters rock!" and "Omg that stalker is cheap!" and so forth. These are all expressions of the same fact...within the world of pvp, all ATs have their own rate of doing and taking damage. Several factors are involved, including: Recharge, Damage, Accuracy, Resistance, Defense, HP, Endurance, Heals, Range, etc.

Consider the extreme example of a BS scrapper facing off against a /devices blaster. If the scrapper, with no ranged attacks, left off his mez protection, the blaster could use web grenade to immobilize him and, by backing up, reduce that scrappers damage output 100%, while still being able to fire at will. That blaster would eventually win that duel, as the scrappers damage output would be zero. As long as the Blaser himself could do enough damage to overcome the Scrappers natural health regen/defenses/etc while the scrapper sits there like a paper-weight, and I mean even 1% more damage then needed, the blaster will eventually win that fight.

When a build is forced to work outside its chosen tempo, that build is at a noticiable disadvantage. Any build that can FORCE another toon to move at a different speed is likely to win.

Ice, unlike most other tanks, has several tools to influence tempo:

--Energy Absorbtion: In pvp, it's a pbAoE attack can be fired every 30s, if slotted and w/o hasten. With hasten, it's roughly every 22s. WHen fired, it drains roughly 1/3 a bars endurance from any target lacking endurance drain resists endurance within the pbAoE range AND refills a decent amount of yours PER FOE hit by the attack, as well as granting a small defense bonus per foe (in the 1% range, per foe, not really of note, but important to remember in case you have a choice of hitting that MM or Controller NEAR his pets or AWAY from his pets). Hitting mulitple foes in pvp can top up your endurance, but obviously comes with it's own dangers. It's most usefull in head to head melee duels, and really gets interesting when fighting multiple melee opponents at once.

My Ice/Em once took on 3 equal level brutes in Warburg who were silly enough to sit inside melee range. Not only did they fall prey to ALL of my tempo altering powers, they mostly fell prey to EA...by trying to build fury, they stayed in melee range for the leach, thus costing them all their endurance over time and keeping me gassed up and firing. Anyways, a total endurance drain will drop all toggles, often leaving the opposing player vulernable to mez attacks and more vulernable to damage, with the added bonus of making it harder for them to run or fight back. I usually go for the toggle-drop + Build Up + TF combo for the stun, then follow up with an ET and a Bonemasher before BU wears off. It's devastating if they don't manage to get out of the way in time.



--Chilling Embrace: It's a 32% -recharge and a 14% damage debuff, both unenhanceable. Both only apply to people silly enough to stand in it's PbAoE aura, which has a range of 10ft in a bubble around the user. It does, however, have an enhanceable slow movement that can often stack up well with the slow movement powers of others on your team, which is handy for keeping people within the area of the debuffs. Primarily of interest is it's ability to affect recharge times, followed by it's ability to interupt AS, and reveal concealed foes. Many, many otherwise whup-booty builds fall apart with a recharge penalty applied to them...controllers can't get out pets again, scrappers can't get that heal off in time, and nobodies high-damage, burst attacks are up when they wish they were. For those builds who only have 1-3 attacks, this is critical, as it basicly keeps them sitting there looking at you a lot, waiting for their powers to recharge. Rage is no longer perma. Stoners get off an attack like once a week. Tier 9s take even longer to recharge. Hasten, self heals, etc, all take much longer, exposing gaps in the builds of other players they might not have known were there. Lemme put it this way...if 2 tanks, with otherwise equal stats, faced off, and one of em had a pbAoE -recharge, the one with that power will win every time.

A word on the slow movement portion. The slow, in and of itself, is not particularly valuable. You don't slot it to slow passing super-speeders, or Combat Jumpers. If they're not attacking you, any toon moving at 50+ mph is going to be into and back out of your little 20ft (max, side to side) aura before they've even noticed the effects. You slot it, in pvp, because of suppression. A great many dedicated pvp builds have Swift or, more likely, Hurdle 3-slotted to help avoid the "suppression" effect in PvP. This allows for ease of kiting on Blapper and Scrapper builds. However, when a target attacks you AND is Chilling Embraces range, they do get noticiably slowed. This has annoyed many a blapper in its day, as it breaks up their kiting strategy. Even if they DO detoggle one of my 4+ toggles and get my mez protection, they spend too much time getting BACK into range to put a disorient on me. Meanwhile, if you're in melee range and sticking around for a few, I'm going to be firing away with Energy Transfer and Total Focus. This brings it to it's other realistic pvp application, the "Melee toon who is losing" application. When a scrapper or brute, or tank or stalker, is losing a fight vs. another melee toon, a lot of times they can simply Jump or SS away. This is not true when facing and Ice tank with CE. If you wait to run until your in the low red HP, I'm GOING to get one more shot in, thanks to Chilling Embrace.

Think of it like a patch of sand you come across in a vehicle: Drive through at speed and you'll never notice. Stop for a moment, break momentum, and it just became a LOT harder to get out.



--Hibernate: What is usually a laughingstock of the tanker community really shines with the concept of tempo. Another, more traditional, tier 9 power for melee toons has a large +def or +res with a 2-3 min timer, an endurance crash, and a long recharge to follow. Hibernate has a 120s base recharge, and essentially functions as a power-rest mode with a phase component. What I mean is, you are stuck in one spot, unable to do anything else (except select an action to immediately follow release from hibernate, an extremely usefull feature), with rather massive hp and endurance regeneration for a time up to 30s in duration. You cannot be damaged or affected in any way, except, it seems, by Repel, which will move you around in a phased state.

Hibernate is especially nice in FFA and team arena duels. In a team duel, for example, my teamates might be elsewhere and I come under fire from several blasters. As they get excited, whittling down my HP, I'm about to die when I pop hibernate. Not only will they have to wait, up to 30s, to start doing damage again, they'll also have to get past my defenses and HP all over again to get a kill. My teamates may or may not come to my rescue, but either way I've likely kept multiple players focuses on me and given my teamates elsewhere a numbers advantage for 20-50s so they can rack up kills.
If the opposing side realizes that hibernate is just going to waste their time, they usually take off in search of squishier targets. This is good for you too, since you get to stay alive and come out swinging and taunting things again.

Hibernate, as mentioned above, lets you select one power to go into effect immediately following the end of it's effects. This means, for example, if I've been overstacked on holds and popped a BF, I can hibernate and let the holds dissipate in the phase period. However, I controller would be free to re-hold me immediately after hibernate ended because my mez shield would still be down from my being held before I hibernated. Since I can set my mez shield to go up immediately, this is a notable saving grace of this power.

An amusing aspect of Hibernate is that since it's not readily recognized, many ppl try to brawl you, or keep attacking, or pop build up, or some such nonsense. Though of little pracitcal value, it does provide some amusement as you sit there and heal up for a few.



--Resistance to slow effects: It simply means that other toons aren't as easily able to affect OUR recharge times and movement speeds, meaning that, in a larger way, we're more in control of our builds tempo than other toons are.




What, then, is Ice vulnerable to in PvP?

Well, with only mediocre defenses, Ice is vulernable to high accuracy, sustained burst damage.

For example...at lvl 50, my Ice tank has:

2979.5hp with Hoarfrost running, 1874.1 without. In the hasten gap, I can spend up to a minute in a lower HP state (handy time to hibernate for 30s, if you ask me..). With hasten, it's only 16s. I always recomend getting the +HP accolades

Hibernate is up every 61.56s without hasten, and 45.29 with hasten up. Note that this is the time it takes to recharge after you stop using it...it's a toggle, like phase.

My passive heal rate, from Health, is 149 per tick, with Hoarfrost up, and a 1-full time of 134.9s. (not accounting for Accolades)

So, in order to kill my tank (assuming optimal, prepared for combat conditions), an opposing player must deal out roughly 3k damage that must all get past my defenses (roughly 30% on average, depending on build) in under 45s, or before I can hibernate. The alternative is to deal less damage in that amount of time, but prevent me from activating hibernate at the correct time, most likely by way of a mez power.

I can tell you from experience, there are only 2 main threats that can accomplish this in time...a Scrapper with acc/dam hammis and running Focussed Accuracy and a fire/rad controller, also usually with hammis, setting up containment and then blasting with APP powers. Both are primarly 40+ threats, so Icers do very well in Warburg and in lower PvP zones.



The Builds: Ok, I finally decided to put 2 builds here. Both are general-purpose builds, meaning they're designed for solo pvp, team pvp. They're designed for base raids, zone duels, and even, believe it or not, for some PvE use. They're the all-singing, all-dancing builds of the Ice tank, it's a wonder they don't bake bread. Anyways...

The following is an SS/SJ build. Hammis are not included, and it is NOT particularly designed as a leveling build but as a respec build. I mainly kept an eye on Warburg efficiency, 50v50 efficiency, the power selection and slotting. I assume a smart player can figure out how to get to this build and adapt it for his purposes on his/her own.

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Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/index.html)
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Name: Ice-Cubed
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
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01) --> Hoarfrost==> Rechg(1) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Heal(15) Heal(25) Heal(25)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(2) DefBuf(3) DefBuf(3)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(5) Slow(5) EndRdx(50)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(9) Rechg(9)
10) --> Bone Smasher==> Acc(10) Acc(11) Dmg(11) Dmg(13) Dmg(13) Rechg(15)
12) --> Taunt==> Rechg(12) Rechg(34) Rechg(37) Taunt(40) Taunt(42) Taunt(42)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14)
16) --> Swift==> Run(16) Run(17) Run(17) ( <--or Hurdle option here)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) DefBuf(19)
20) --> Health==> Heal(20) Heal(21) Heal(21)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(23) EndMod(23)
24) --> Teleport Foe==> Acc(24) Acc(42) Range(43) Range(43) IntRdx(50) IntRdx(50)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> Rechg(26) Rechg(27) Rechg(27) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(31)
28) --> Build Up==> Rechg(28) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
30) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(30)
32) --> Hibernate==> EndMod(32) EndMod(33) EndMod(33) Heal(33) Heal(34) Heal(34)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Acc(35) Acc(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(37) Rechg(37)
38) --> Total Focus==> Acc(38) Acc(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(40) Rechg(40)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> TH_Buf(41) TH_Buf(43) TH_Buf(45) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(46)
44) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(44) Acc(46) Dmg(46) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Rechg(48)
47) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(47)
49) --> Permafrost==> DmgRes(49)( <--or Accrobatics here, for extra mez protection and added resistance to the detoggle-mez strategies of a variety of teams)
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01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
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The following is a SS/TP build, again w/o hammis included. My thought is that a player who has spent the time to get hammis probably knows what to do with them and doesn't need my help on the issue. It has considerable freedom of movement, with all the slow resists available and both hurdle AND swift for suppression. It IS tight on endurance, consult the endurance management section on that or consider slotting for end redux with the help of slots freed by...hammis.

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Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/index.html)
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Name: Ice-Cubed
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
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01) --> Hoarfrost==> Rechg(1) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Heal(15) Heal(25) Heal(25)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(2) DefBuf(3) DefBuf(3)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(5) Slow(5) EndRdx(50)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(9) Rechg(9)
10) --> Bone Smasher==> Acc(10) Acc(11) Dmg(11) Dmg(13) Dmg(13) Rechg(15)
12) --> Taunt==> Rechg(12) Rechg(34) Rechg(37) Taunt(40) Taunt(42) Taunt(42)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14)
16) --> Swift==> Run(16) Run(17) Run(17)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) DefBuf(19)
20) --> Health==> Heal(20) Heal(21) Heal(21)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(23) EndMod(23)
24) --> Teleport Foe==> Acc(24) Acc(42) Range(43) Range(43) IntRdx(50) IntRdx(50)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> Rechg(26) Rechg(27) Rechg(27) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(31)
28) --> Build Up==> Rechg(28) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
30) --> Teleport==> EndRdx(30)
32) --> Hibernate==> EndMod(32) EndMod(33) EndMod(33) Heal(33) Heal(34) Heal(34)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Acc(35) Acc(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(37) Rechg(37)
38) --> Total Focus==> Acc(38) Acc(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(40) Rechg(40)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> TH_Buf(41) TH_Buf(43) TH_Buf(45) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(46)
44) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(44) Acc(46) Dmg(46) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Rechg(48)
47) --> Hurdle==> Jump(47)
49) --> Permafrost==> DmgRes(49)
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01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
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Note, this is mainly for power selection and general slotting. Hammis and priorities can change quite a bit. Simply getting 6-8 acc/dam hammis can free up a lot of slots. Some acc/range in TP foe would not be amiss either. I usually don't bother to slot Laser Eyes for range, it's base is 40ft, and beyond that range you're going to have a hard time putting anything to be anyway. It's a parting or opening shot at best, and a filler, but nothing major.





Other Versions:

Other secondaries: Many people have asked me about other secondaries. I will say that the most usefull pvp secondary I can think of would be /SS. As things currently stand, an Ice/SS would be much more usefull than my Ice/EM in Sirens Call. Also, I see possibilities with the EPPS and Rage to do a blasTank build. I am currently chugging some numbers on this possibility, but I can already say with certainty that Ice/SS/Fire, the most damaging of the combinations available, loses tons of burst damage when compared to Ice/EM/Energy, and that's a huge loss in the highly-mobile pvp world, where opponents often aren't going to let you get off more than 1-2 melee shots. If you're interested in an Ice/SS build, look below and through the next nearest pages...I've probably put something together and added it to this thread with a complete analysis.

Some have taken the presence pool in place of taunt to gain access to Intimidate as a ghetto-hold. Others may try to hammi up attacks and skip FA, going for the Ice or Earth APP. The Ice APP has nice damage, slows, but it requires a near useless hold selection and you've lost a lot in melee damage vs high-defense builds by skipping FA, not to mention the +perception to see stalkers in full hide+stealth. If you ARE going to skip the Body Mastery EPP, I recomend the Arctic EPP, but it's a build primarily for the rich, and an anti-caster build more than a all-rounder. Earth has a pbAoE Sleep...very nice for storm trollers and other pesky nuisances. Useless against melee toons, who wil have more than enough sleep res to smile at you and keep on coming. Again, very anti-caster in a pvp situation.

I've seen builds with Tactics and Assault earlier on, their users thinking they needed fear/placate res and extra perception earlier on.

For a solo build, the Medicine pool can do very well. Solo, I don't find myself NEEDING a heal in between Dull Pain and Hibernate very often at all, and in teams I should have buffs/heals at my disposal, so I don't prefer it for my build.

All builds/ideas are valid. I'm not here to get into an argument over what is better, because the TRUTH is another one of Ice/Ems strengths is that it's a build with enough room to be good at a few different things. As noted, the above build is my all-rounder, what I run in teams and solo. There are other builds, some which focus on blasters and controllers which I call "anti-caster", and others which would strengthen you vs. melee toon. Each gives up something in opportunity cost to focus on one side or the other, and I have simply found my build above to be the best match for my playstyle and common pvp matches.



A Word about Tp Foe and Travel Powers: TP Foe can still be a great help to an Ice tank. At the 40 cap in Warburg, I use it and teamates to make up for my lack of dedicated vertical movement power and lack or ranged attacks. Usually, if ppl are out of range of TP Foe I'm not really that worried about them anyway. That being said, anyone who PvPs without TP Foe on a bind is silly, IMO, especially for a melee toon. Tp Foe is interruptable, and it's important to recognize your interruptions when you slot the power. For instance, I recomend 2x interupt redux, which is NOT, IMO, enough to get through a fire DoT attack or Caltrops. It is enough to get one off between most melee or ranged attack chains. My interest in slotting for redux is reduced by the fact that NO amount of redux will let you TP Foe within the influence of a slow power OR a debuff. This includes any rad, dark, or sonic debuffs, and notably snowstorm from the controller/defender crowd. The only way to get around these are to break perception, and by the time you do that you might as well have chased down the original target anyway.

I bind mine to "T", which is close to my movement keys. When a target runs, move my left finger over a key and bring their butts back. Target the ground near you and cue up either ET, TF, or, if you've taken it, stun. With good players you'r only likely to get one shot in, so make it a good one. The bind looks like this { /bind t powexec_name "Teleport Foe"}.

Also, in burg, with boating squishies who super-jump when teleported, you might try going under the little bridges by the beach, which are close quarters and teleport them into there. They'll start to jump automaticly, confused, hit the underside of the ledge 5ft up, and you'l have em dead with a Build Up combo before they figure it out. This is just one example, I'm always looking for spots like these to use TP foe in. The pools in Warburg are also great for Stone brutes/tanks who won't come out of granite, but weren't smart enough to take TP too. With no jump, they can't escape the pool unless they drop both granite AND rooted (you know, they're mez protection?) Getting them to drop that, pray they don't have BF, and hit em with ET+TF as soon as they pop out.

I'm also a big believer in SS. It allows me to be extremely mobile as a gound force. If you DO need to run, you can, and at great speed. Your resistance to slows means it takes so many opposing players to slow you down they might as well have killed you instead. When teamed, I need my teamates to drop repel based toons, then I SS in with BU and put em the rest of the way down. Ice/EM is largely about combat support in teams, and SS gets you in and out faster. Cue SS, hit "f" to follow, and zoom in on stuff till their dead or you are. If they go over vertical objects, I have hurdle and then TP Foe.

IF, however, you choose to go Teleport instead, remember to get a good set of binds. I find teleport unwieldy. When I need to use it as an escape hatch, I probably don't have the endurance or are being interupted too much to use it as such. While a nice value at only one more power than Teleport Foe, you can say the same for SS. I find it easier to follow highly mobile toons with SS, but SS does require you to take a vert power, and your main other option is SJ. It IS nice for repel, especially a Mind/Storm who will repel your butt around the arena like a hokey puck with Telekenisis and Hurricane.



Endurance Management: Ok, one of the key endurance management tricks is to keep your enhancements in stamina as green as reasonably possible. With the base recovery rate and stamina, I can run all of my toggles and have a healthy, positive recovery rate. This ends up working out well for pvp, becuause my damage is usually done in bursts as other squishies tend to run as hard as they can, or simply die and save me some endurance/time in chasing them down. In protracted melee duels, they usually become a "war of attrition" for the other guys endurance. Very few melee toons can effectively kite an Ice tank...they run up against our mass of hp and our hibernate strategy. So they'll be motivated to stay in melee range, and they'll keep you fed with enduance. Once they start to get low on endurance, try to time it so you can get a Energy Absobtion (to toggle-drop them) +BU+ET+TF string off. Most melee types will end up being mezzed, though it may take awhile for SR scrappers and Regen scrappers/stalkers can take a resistance to disorient effects power.

You should not particularly need endurance or be winded vs ranged toons, you're positive recovery, even with all toggles running, is enough to support your brief blips of burst damage as you try to put them down.



Hammidon and Accolades:

HOs and Accolades are another way to give yourself "the edge" in pvp.

These are all the HO enhancements available in the game. In the high, high-end pvp in this game, a build ultimate power relies a lot on how much use they can get out of this power. People who point out that HOs are now only 2xSOs are missing the point...a controller, for example, can put 6 HOs in a power and cap out the enhaceable aspects of 4 of that powers aspects. An Ice tank, on the other hand, can only really put 3x HOs in a defense power, capping the enhancement value of 2 of it's aspects.

Nucleolu Exposure= Dmg/Acc <--- 1st priority
Centriole Exposure= Dmg/Rng
Peroxisome Exposure= Dmg/Mez
Endoplasm Exposure= Acc/Mez <--- Of note if you wish to try a build based around "Stun"
Golgi Exposure= Heal/End
RibosomeExposure= Dmg resist/End
Microfilament Exposure= Travel speed/End
Lysosome Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/Acc
Enzyme Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/End
Membrane Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/Attack rate <--- 2nd priority
Cytoskeleton Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/End <--- 1st priority
*Mez is any holds, stuns, sleep, disorient, and immobilize. Slow and knockback are not considered as Mez.


Primarily of interest to an Ice/EM tank are the use of the Acc/Dam (Attacks), Tohit/Def/end (Shields and Focussed Accuracy), and Tohit/Def/Attack rate (Build-up, if you really felt you had to).

I recomend at least 1 acc/dam in every attack, and at least 2-slotting it for recharge. So it would be:

35) --> Energy Transfer==> Acc/Dmg(35) Acc(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(36) Rechg(37) Rechg(37).

For Focussed Accuracy, you can save 3 slots and cap out that powers value by having 3x Tohit/Def/End HOs in it.

I also recomend 1 def/end in each shield, though it's fairly low priority and really just Quality of Life thing.

I recomend these accolades:
Freedom Phalanx: +10% hp.Requirements here.
Portal Jockey: +5% HP and +5% Endurance. Requirements
Atlas Medallion: +5 max endurance. Requirements



Main pvp threats:

Scrappers: Regen is going to be tough for you, simply because the tanker BI is does not allow enough burst damage to put these toons to bed before they can regen on you. /SR is tough too, as they'll resist your slow aura and have great, often suppression-proof movement speed. With your acc/dam HOs and FA, you can get it done. Don't forget that /SR is end heavy, and an EA at the right moment can drop about 1/2 his defense total in toggles and let you get your groove on, whereas it's extremely unlikely you'll be able to end leach a good regen scrapper through Quick Recovery and the oft-used Stamina.

Blasters: Heh. The main hero pvp worry of other toons is your bread and butter. They'll hate you, especially those who have gotten used to blapping melee builds down to nothing. Ice/em, the big FoTM blaster build, will be little trouble for you with your heavy Cold res and defense. Since Ice is also half a toggle and half a "clicky" build, this severely limits the value they get for detoggling you. You'll normally be running 4-7 toggles anyway, so simply keeping an eye on them is often all that is needed. If you do get stunned and they're opening up a can on ya, don't worry. I always pop out of the stun before a blaster has whittled through all my HP, and am able to hibernate. Blasters alone are little trouble, and are fun duels. In teams, which the better ones will operate in, it's a whole 'nother ballpark and you shouldn't expect to be able to take more than 2 blappers solo.

Controllers/Defenders: Much more dangerous in teams than solo. A high level, hammied out Fire/Rad will likely give you fits. On teams, learn to start taking out the defenders first.

Stalkers: As things currently stand, you are the proud papa of the only truly stalker-immune pvp build out there. You have perception. You have massive HP. You have decent defense. You can phase. You have an auto-hit slow aura that interupts AS. This has limits, however, in that only YOU are really immune. It's very tough for me to save teamates from stalkers, especially smart ones working in teams to pick off squishy ATs. It's the classic rock-paper-scissor of 1v1 pvp in this game, but since most toons hate stalkers, I just thought it was worth mentioning these guys are no sweat for you, but ARE a threat to any team you may be on, so they still deserve a spot on this list.



PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank:

vs. Melee toons: I often rush in there and get off a preemptive EA. They're usually sitting there thinking "whew, thought he was gonna attack me, but the suckers letting me get the first hit in! great!". And that's true too. I want them to get the hit in, cause once i'm down to 2/3 or so HP I hit Hoarfrost to get my +HP and heal in then hasten to get everything charging up on me. This also optimizes my end leach...by opening with it, I take away 1/3 his bar on average. His attacks will take more, and if I'm lucky EA will be up again in time for me to drop his toggles and get a BU+ET in, or a TF at the least. These duels can be long, and EA is usually my margin of victory.
As with blasters, it's worth your time to avoid a scrappers peak-damage periods. When I see a BS scrapper hit BU, even though I know I can probably live through it, its more efficient to just move back some, make them kite in and out of my slow aura and suppression, try to waste some of it. No need to take someones uber attack-string to the face if avoiding it means you spend less time in hibernate and more time hitting back with your own damage.

vs High Acc melee toons: This gets it's own section...because builds with acc/dam hammis and focussed acc are so common, a mediocre-defense build like Ice is going to have some issues with these boys. Specificly Spines and Broadsword. Only option here is to try to put em down 1st...you'll be taking a lot of damage to your HP, so use it as best you can and hibernate often. You have a lot more than they do, but they'll do more damage. If they seem weak to slows, back up a bit if your about to die and have none of your "bail-out" powers up...let the slow aura make them work to close into melee range again. This is really the only reason I advocate spending the time and energy to get hammis and FA yourself. If no other toons had it either, you'd get by fine without it.

vs. Blasters: Similar to high acc melee toons, getting the 1st strike is very helpfull. I don't recomend using BU on the charge, b/c they may very well fly out. If you're going to TP Foe em in, hit TF and while the TP animation goes off and you're guaranteed a shot in before they take off, provided the accuracy roll succeeds. They may be 75ft away in mid-SJ when they get hit, but they'll usually fall and then you just SS in and do some more punching. I usually wait until they're stunned to hit BU...also, keep in mind, it's better, when you know they're not going anywhere, to open up with Bonemasher and maybe Barrage to whittle their HP down...I only use the big guns when I know they're going down. Why? Defiance. If I let a blaster get away, and it's a capable, high-mobility type, he'll be using defiance-enhanced damage to pound away at my [censored] for the rest of the duel, until one of us dies. ET and TF are more than enough to take out 1/2 blaster HP, so I usually try to save them for a 1-2 punch to put the blaster to bed and save myself the HP. The best ones will be highly mobile, as I've said, so be sure to move too, in only semi-predictable patterns. Keep a big gun attack ready to fire if they're at full hp, hope for a stun to keep em grounded. If they try to just jump around and pepper you from range, you have the defense and HP to live till you can hibernate, and they'll eventually try other methods of taking you down. I mainly take TP foe for blasters.

Warning: Learn to watch for the animations. Aim is a yellow version of Build Up. Build Up looks like...build up. Either one is trouble, and some pop both at once. Stay mobile for that time, they're looking to get a hit in and detoggle you. Let them work for it. Even if they do, luck and keeping an eye on your toggles means this isn't too big a deal, but it definately helps to know your animations and know what's coming.

NOTE: Blasters are notorious for running around with 20 breakfrees to counter mezzing of all kinds. While this is not the worst thing in the world, it basicly means you won't be able to stun them too much, so you'll be fighting a highly mobile duel vs this AT.

vs Controllers: High level ones are the pain. Fire/rad is bad for you. The debuffs to acc and damage are so powerfull you will likely be in a LOT of trouble without acc/dam hammis. You need to mez them, and, like blasters, they'll be carrying a crapload of BFs just in case. /storm and /ff will repel the hell out of you. Mind/son is capable of the same. Additionally, and worse, for us, is the fact that a lot of controllers have hammis and a rather ungodly ability to overstack mez protection. Hibernate is some use here, since it lets old holds wear off while the controller is unable to apply new ones. This is also the reason I bother with accrobatics, little extra insurance never hurts. The APPs do a lot of damage, and lead to the whole "blastroller" phenomenon in the late game. With acc/dams and FA, you should have enough acc to punch through debuffs. Hit em hard, hit em fast, then take a rest while they respawn and do it all over again. I only carry breakfrees vs these toons...I feel hammis and high level controllers are fairly broken, and since they're going to be using BFs anyway, might as well even the playing field.

vs Tanks: Why are you fighting our tanky brothers? Let's assume they're niave and misguided, and have allied themselves with the wrong side. An Ice vs a Stone tank is an exercise in futility. It's always a draw. Anyone else you can take, some easier than others. Ice is the premier tank, with Stone behind it, in that it's more survivable but less of a factor in pvp, thanks to it's severe movement issues.

vs Brutes: "Tank-lite", I call em. They like that. Anyways, be aware that, b/c they like to be in melee range, they'll often play right into your hand. I've fought brutes 3v1 before and won, while they were running Overload and other various tier 9s. How? Well...think about it, you should know by now. 1st, there's not a brute set out there with slow resistance. So, if they're in melee, trying to build fury, they're actually working against themselves. They'd be better off kiting me, but I'd still hibernate out on them before they could kill me. No win for them, but better than being in melee with me. Why? Well, in addition to CE, they were also all in range of EA all the time. That's right...I was mighty low on end from whaling on these guys, but they were right there to lend me their endurance when I needed. One was SS, with perma-rage running, so he hit rather a lot, but with no endurance, he had to save up his strikes of I'd detoggle him with end leach and BU+ET+TF him. Long story short, all of a brutes goals in melee combat play right into your strengths atm, so just go with it. Remember, however, you're better off riding hibernate for the full 30s and running out their Overload/Unstoppable/whatever timer than popping in and out trying to get damage. Just camp. If they call you cheap, just point out that you dont have an overload and they do, and ask them if they think that's fair. *shrugs*

vs Stalkers: CE should be up all the time anyway. Um..other than that...hrmm. They're really not a threat to you. In teams, keep an eye out. I have taunt on the #1 button, so it's the first thing I hit when I see one, then my attack string. The defense sets will have a tier 9 with good defense, so keep BU ready too. I once turned off CE and all shields and took an AS straight to HP. With hoarfrost up, it took roughly 1/2 my hp, and even had no other option been available, the stun did not last long enough to prevent me from hibernating before he was able to take the other half.

vs Other Villian ATs: Since brutes and Stalkers are the real pvp threats for you, I'm going to lump everyone else into this zone. Most Dominators and Corrupters are squishy enough for you to 2-3 shot em, and they don't make much of a duel. MMs with the repel field can be annoying


Team PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank: Your "role" in team pvp = Aggro control --> Meat-shield --> Combat Support. In EXACTLY that order. I bolded that because it's the whole reason I made this section is to convey this fact. It is impossible to write a comprehensive guide to team pvp, as every match will have an ungodly amount of variables and I have a finite amount of patience. Much the same way a PvE team will be annoyed with a tank who eschews his role as aggro controller and meatshield and scranks, a pvp team will likewise be annoyed by a tank who does not taunt. An easily killable tank is just as annoying, so use the skills you used solo to stay alive and reduce the other sides kill count whenever possible by staying alive.

You will notice Taunt is six-slotted above, for recharge and duration. This is because taunt is at a flat 50% chance to hit a target in pvp, unenhanceable. This means, since it's primary use for me is as a "oh [censored], pull that guy off my teamate he's about to kill" button it's rather worthless, as it will fail 50% of the time. It is often ineffective to taunt a foe too much in pvp in hopes of drawing their aggro, as it will likely yield one of the two following results: Target chews a BF and continues on his merry way OR target ignores taunt, goes where he pleases and waits for taunt to wear off. The above slotting reduces the effectiveness of either of those two options...if he pops a breakfree, I've already cost him a pill he probably needed vs a blapper or controller AND I'm ready to taunt him again ASAP. If he/she chooses to ignore me, he likely will have a rather LONG wait for that taunt duration to wear off, still effectively allowing me to minimize his damage, which is my role as tanker.

Kills. Ice-Cubed racks up a respectable amount of kills in team duels. This is because EM is a killer in short range. When I end up, as often happens in team pvp, in a 2v1 situation where another team-mate and I are after one foe, I usually get the final kill with Build-Up and my two big guns. It is DEVASTATING to almost any toon to fight anyone else AND my ice tank.





Anyways, now that you have an idea how to fight with an Ice/em tank, "Darth," you ask, "how can I build one efficiently?" Well, Ice is definitely a build that needs a respec to pvp well. It's PvE and PvP concentrations are far too dissimilar. PvE, I USED to recommend WW as an extra control power, but it's recent nerf has pooched that idea entirely. I7 will help an Icers leveling issues somewhat, but some general tips include:

-Focus on AoE power. This lets you solo, hold aggro for teams, and is basicly what your defenses are intended to have you do anyway. Ice is strongest when right in the middle of a pile of foes, using Energy Absorbtion for endurance and defense boosts, CE to minimize incoming damage and taunt the mobs, and likley BU+WH to put the AoE smackdown on em and buy me some time with some disorients. On teams, when PvE, for example, I'd run into the largest clump, hit EA, then DP, then BU+Whirling hands then taunt a far group OR, if it was especially dangerous, I'd skip the WH and just taunt the nearby guys and hibernate until the odds were trimmed down some and the debuffers had done their job and made things easier for me.

-Defenses, hibernate, dull pain your main priorities. Team for damage, tanks make really boring solo toons anyway. I like to carry a pocket blaster with me at all times, PvE. Kinetics work well for you too, as, in high levels, between the two of you you should be able to drain an entire mobs endurance in short time, then clean up.


I've decided not to include a level by level guide to leveling. After reading the PvP guide, you should have an idea of how it all works in PvE anyway, and things like power pools and stuff should really be left up to the player. There's no "right" or "wrong" way to level, I'd go with whatever is fun for you.

One last thing...I frequently get "But Darth, what do you know about high level pvp? Your Icer is only 43!" Sure. I also pvp with my SG (when everyone else is on 50s) with my Ice/EM tank. If I do ok at 43, I have no reason to think things are going to get worse with more HP and powers. I mean, I'm facing heroes with many more powers and slots than I have and still racking up good killcounts and doing all the other things tanks do in pvp, so I don't see the situation going downhill when I have more powers, HP, and slots. *shrugs* People place too much emphasis on the level in this game, IMO, but, for what it's worth, Ice/EM is not a dueler that needs a full 50 levels to pvp well. I am planning on finishing Ice-Cubed, just waiting on the i7 changes to drag my [censored] out of the pvp zones and back into PvE. My advice for the 40+ game, however, is based on the advice of fellow tankers and should be considered sound. Ice-Cubed will be speeding around as a 50 tank soon enough, just thought I'd dispell that little bit of nonsense ahead of time.

Gah. I will hold you responsible for the imminent mass of Ice tanks that will soon infest the PvP zones. Ice tanks are about the only thing my Nin/Nin cannot kill. Believe me, I've tried. I can take them to about 50%, but then they hit their bloody Hibernate and it's back to square one.

Either way, a very nice and very in-depth guide, and I know at least one person who'd be rather interested in seeing it.

darth, while I have no desire to roll up an ice/em tanker, let me say thanks for putting together such a good PvP guide. To many people want to hold onto their "trade secrets", or just don't know how to build a good guide.

Ice/SS vs Ice/EM....A look at the blasTank build and /em vs /ss in burst damage

Ok, when asked what the best secondary BESIDES /em is, I go with /ss. Why? Because it allows you to choose another EPP besides the Energy epic, is tied for the 2nd biggest gun attack. After /SS, Fire has some nice burst damage and decent DPS if you build around the single-target. However, there's simply no reason to take fire over energy for pvp, as things currently stand, so we're looking for reasons to take /SS over /EM. I'd long heard that EM was so much better than SS for pvp, but wasn't sure just HOW much better, so thought it was worth a look.

The following is my best stab at an Ice/SS/Fire build. It has the perception to see hide+stealth stalkers, and enough to-hit to be able to regularly hit many foes. It is intended to be a hammi build, with at least 1 acc/dam hammi in every attack. Additionally, more slots can be freed up by putting hammis in Rage. With all the range in there, I felt TP foe was superflous.

Note that I did not include Assaults tiny + damage to the SS figures above. I did not want to presume too much about a possible build, so it was left out. I could easily see NOT including leadership as well, but this is very much a "team tank" build. If desired, there's the quite naughty possibility of putting Vengeance in instead of Permafrost, later in life.

---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name: iceempvpsstelebuild
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Super Strength
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Hoarfrost==> Rechg(1) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Heal(15) Heal(25) Heal(25)
01) --> Jab==> Dmg(1) Dmg(39) Dmg(46)
02) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(2) DefBuf(3) DefBuf(3)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(5) Slow(5)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(9) Rechg(9)
10) --> Taunt==> Rechg(10) Rechg(11) Rechg(11) Taunt(40) Taunt(40) Taunt(43)
12) --> Haymaker==> Dmg(12) Dmg(13) Dmg(13) Rechg(15) Rechg(17) Rechg(17)
14) --> Assault==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16) Jump(39) Jump(40)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) DefBuf(19) DefBuf(19)
20) --> Health==> Heal(20) Heal(21) Heal(21)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(23) EndMod(23)
24) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(24)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> Rechg(26) Rechg(27) Rechg(27) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(29) EndRdx(31)
28) --> Knockout Blow==> Dmg(28) Dmg(31) Dmg(31) Rechg(34) Rechg(37) Rechg(39)
30) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(30)
32) --> Hibernate==> EndMod(32) EndMod(33) EndMod(33) Heal(33) Heal(34) Heal(34)
35) --> Rage==> Rechg(35) Rechg(36) Rechg(36) TH_Buf(36) TH_Buf(37) TH_Buf(37)
38) --> Tactics==> TH_Buf(38) TH_Buf(48) TH_Buf(48)
41) --> Ring of Fire==> Dmg(41) Dmg(42) Dmg(42) Rechg(42) Rechg(43) Rechg(43)
44) --> Fire Blast==> Dmg(44) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(45) Rechg(46) Rechg(46)
47) --> Fire Ball==> Dmg(47) Dmg(48) Dmg(50) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)
49) --> Permafrost==> DmgRes(49)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------




This is designed to be a look at maximum damage, with an eye on burst damage. All slotting choices assume max damage slotting and recharge where needed, hammi enhanced if necessary. In other words, all powers are assumed to have a 3x damage, 3x recharge slotting, which is only really practical with acc/dam hammis included if you actually want to be HITTING something. Endurance is not a major concern for Ice tanks anyways, so I'm not worrying about that variable, but I will say, from what I've seen in-game, SS doesn't appear to have any really noticiable end savings vs my EM tanks either.

SS attacks:

KO: 19.28, 27.2 w/ rage 9.44s w/hasten 12.83 w/o (2.23s activation)
FireBlast: 7, 9.9 w/ rage 2.26 w/hasten, 3.08 w/o (1.2s activation)
FireBall: 7.6, 10.7 w/ rage 12.08 w/hasten, 16.42 w/o (1s activation)
Haymaker: 8.88, 12.5 w/ rage 3.02 w/hasten, 4.1 w/o (1.5s activation)
Jab: 3.68, 5.2 w/rage, 1.18 w/hasten, 2 w/o (1.07s activation)
RoF: (DOT) 5.96, 8.4 w/rage, 3.77 w/hasten, 5.13 w/o (1.17s activation)
Char: (DOT) 5.96, 8.4 w/rage, 12.08 w/hasten, 16.42 w/o (1.07 activation)
Rage: 1.17s activation


SS PvP Chain: This chain was tricky to design, especially for burst damage. SS simply does not lend itself to burst, especially w/o the EPPs. Hurl is junko both burst and DPS-wise, Footstomp has less damage than Haymaker at far more cost for being an AoE would hate to play an Ice/SS in between lvls 30 and 50. A jab+punch chain doesn't work either.

I think the chain would vary with opponent. For example, for an enemy resistant to smash/lethal I'd throw in either RoF or Char in place of haymaker. KO Blow's overly long recharge and activation means you cannot use it 2 times within a 11s period of time, and there is no 1-2-3 punch like EM has. On my EM tank, a great many squishier foes are dead within the first 3 shots after build up.

Also note that while the Energy set up below is more or less the optimized build for that setup, the SS+Fire EPP combo gives you variables. RoF has a much faster recharge than Char, and can be used as a ranged attack in an attack string, at the expense of the possibility of holding a target with Char in a crucial time. I do not recomend taking RoF AND Char, as they both eat up far too many slots when used together.

--------------------------------------
BI Activation:
--------------------------------------
1.17s Rage
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
27.2 (KO) 2.23s
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
9.9 (blast) 1.2s
8.4 (RoF/Char) 1.07
10.7s (ball) 1s
12.5 (hay) 1.5s
+
9.9 (blast) 1.2s (This is to equalize the effects of EM needing a BU for every burst chain and SS not...as you can see, even another attack doesn't even come close to evening the damage)


= 93.7 BI (missing the final blast) in 9.7s w/o the activation of Rage included, or a window of 10.87s with it in there.

= 103.6 BI (with the final blast in there) in 11.2s w/o Rage activation included. This is more likely a common situation since Rage does not need to be activated as often as Build Up does for optimum burst.

NOTE: These calculations are not exactly correct! Because Fire Ball, Blast, and both of the Fire holds have a DoT component of 5 ticks, and issues with activation times and fitting in an efficient chain with the other variables, it is inevitable some of the ticks of damage will trail off the end of the chain.

"But Darth, won't KO be up again soon enough?!" Yep. Including activation, rage, and hasten, KO can be up 11.67s after it is first activated. While this made it impossible to include in a apples to apples comparison of SS and EM within a given amount of time, it is possible to slightly lengthen the amount of time looked at, which would likely be valuable vs melee foes. Variables and changes to the chain need to be made as well, if you plan on your target being there long enough long enough to get 2 KO blows off, or, in exchange, if you plan on him running as far as possible. Leading the chain with KO then blasting would be necessary then.





Energy Melee:

ET: 24.7, 37.4 w/ BU 7.55s w/hasten 10.26 w/o (1s activation)
TF: 19.3, 29.2 w/ BU 7.55s w/hasten 10.26 w/o (3.3s activation)
Bonemasher: 8.9, 13.4 w/ BU 3.02s w/hasten, 4.1 w/o (1.5s activation)
Laser Eyes: 5.41, 8.2 w/ BU 3.08s w/hasten 2.26 w/o (1.67s activation)
Build-Up: 33.97 w/hasten, 46.17w/o (1.17s activation)


EM PvP Chain:
--------------------------------------
BI Activation:
--------------------------------------
1.17s BU
37.4 (et) 1s
13.4 (bone) 1.5s
29.2 (tf) 3.3s
13.4 (bone) 1.5s
8.2 (eyes) 1.67s
37.4 (et) 1s


= 139 BI after build up, with an 11.14s window. This includes build-ups activation time, and is contingent on the target remaining stationary for most of the chain AND the EM tank being lightning fast and perfect in the execution of this chain. I can tell you from experience most targets will pop a BF and move on if they know what's coming, and that's a powerfull advantage to then in that it radicly decreases your burst output by doing so.

= 97.91 without build up with a 9.97s window with this same string.


Now to figure out actual damage output it gets hairier:

See, conventional wisdom states that tanker damage is ,8 of blaster damage. This is true...for melee attacks. For ranged attacks, tankers, brutes, and scrappers all get the shaft. Our modifier is down to .5. Yay. Did you feel you were too damaging anyway? Yeah...me too. O.o!

REAL tanker BI modifier and formulas for actual damage output can be found here.

So, going from that, at level 50, the EM string = 130.8 x (.36 x -44.49) + 8.2 x ( .36 x -27.81) = (-2094.945) + (-82.095)= 2177.04 raw "hp" worth of damage before resistances, dam debuffs, all that get thrown in the rougly 11s indicated above.

At lvl 50, the SS/Fire string = 64.7 x (.36 x -44.49) + 29 x ( .36 x -27.81) = (-1036.261) + (-290.336) = -1326.597 raw "hp" worth of damage before resistances, dam debuffs, all that get thrown in the rougly 11s indicated above.. Also, this is the string with Rage's activation included. The other string is only an extra 9.9 BI x the ranged modifier, so it's a fairly minor change.

So, for certain, there is an advantage in being able to do damage from range. But 80ft isn't really much range in the PvP world, when things are flying, super-jumping, and SS-ing out of range with builds designed to ignore suppression.

*whew* Ok, so this is clearly NOT a representation of /em vs /ss tanks and their overall DPS. I suspect SS will pull ahead in engagements lasting over 15s but under 45s. IMO my tanks battles engagements ARE either under 15s or well over 45s, so I still think /em gets the nod.


I've still got some other stuff to add to the guide, possibly a video or two, so if you're looking at this at some later date be sure to scroll through the next page or 3 to see if there is anything else you might like to see that I have already added.

I'd love to actually test this out, as my tanker is close to fitting the bill (L42 ice/ss). However, I'd like to try a different approach. Instead of going for max damage, I'd like to try a stab at rhythm disruption. Thus, I'll be looking at a Ice/SS/Ice setup. Why? With all of the slows, holds, disorients and knockbacks, my idea is to blow through an opponents status protection and leave them bare to a full-on assault. Of course, it'll be difficult for me to test this, what with my connection being utter crap for now (and for who knows how long, Comcast is jerking me around something fierce). Because of that, it'll be a long time before I can get my tanker up to L50. But what do you think, Darth? I'd like your opinion on that.

For Ice/SS, yes, the Ice EPP is a strong choice. The single blast is stronger than either of the fire blasts and has a ranged -rchg to it. For a very team-minded build, or one looking at base-raids, I can even see an argument for taking Ice storm, though I personally would probably skip it.

I'd like to see your Ice/SS on test whenever you have time. I'm thinking about rolling one up on Freedom just to get some dual-server pvp action and try out the build.

edit: nevermind, missed it, but then found the answer

Awesome guide man!

My main character is an Invul/EM tank (lvl 50). I've done everything with this character: TF's, Trials, SGvs SG Base raids, PvP matches, arena matches, exemplaring, mentoring, you name it.

I have a lot of alts now (scrapper level 41, controller level 37, defender level 30, blaster level 23, stalker level 31, brute level 26, etcetc). I enjoy all of them a lot, but your guide has given me the itch to try an Ice tank!

Great guide!

5 stars!

OK, crap. Hrmm. I'll have to rework this at some point in time.

It took like a month or two, but I'm getting indications that the Brawl Indexes for tanks were normalized for the ranged attacks...in other words, that 4.5556 is actually higher, but then the ranged modifier brings it back down in line, so that 4.5556 melee is the same as 4.5556.


Sadly, I cannot test that factor out right now, but I will, on the next day when I have nothing better to do, review the old Ice/SS/Fire prospect.

not sure what you mean. Are you saying that superstrength might be more viable or less than you previously thought now?

More. I made a mistake in not personally confirming how ranged attacks were set up previously, so I am now looking into it myself. Went off forum wisdom, PMS to ppl who were, apparently, wrong.

I'll re-crunch the numbers for the other case, as well though, to compare them again, so we'll have them for either/or.

Also, I've been told Ice Blasts BI is off on the planner...which doesn't help the prospect of an Ice/SS/Ice, which woulda been cool, IMO.

Ok, since ppl are obviously still reading this, here's an "off-the-cuff" change to SS/Fire numbers.

Please note that only the following calculations are off, and only for the ranged portion of SSs.

[ QUOTE ]

At lvl 50, the SS/Fire string = 64.7 x (.36 x -44.49) + 29 x ( .36 x -27.81) = (-1036.261) + (-290.336) = -1326.597 raw "hp" worth of damage before resistances, dam debuffs, all that get thrown in the rougly 11s indicated above.. Also, this is the string with Rage's activation included. The other string is only an extra 9.9 BI x the ranged modifier, so it's a fairly minor change.


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New numbers, for THAT string, are:

93.7 BI x (.36x-44.49) = -1500.74 HP worth of damage in the 11s window WITH rage activation included.

103.6BI x (.36x-44.49) = -1659.30 HP worth of damage in that same window with another attack instead of Rages activation included. Likely more "real world" a number.

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So, going from that, at level 50, the EM string = 130.8 x (.36 x -44.49) + 8.2 x ( .36 x -27.81) = (-2094.945) + (-82.095)= 2177.04 raw "hp" worth of damage before resistances, dam debuffs, all that get thrown in the rougly 11s indicated above.


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So you end up with 2177.04 vs 1500.74 or 1659.30 , depending on how you want to look at it.

That means SS is still doing only .69 (69%) of EMs damage in the first case, and .76 (76%) of EMs in the second case, in BURST modes of 11-12s.

To sum up, ANY EM string is going to be better both in a common 1-2s window in which you catch skilled squishies for a sec before they hop off, and an 11s window vs anything that doesn't hop off.

The SS combo will pull ahead in overall DPS, and probably EPS (endurance) as well. It succeeds at ranged damage too. There are utility-combinations and other factors that may want to be considered, such as taking Footstomp for the AoE knockup and some damage after toggle-dropping some enemies with Energy Absorbtion. Also good to hit stalkers with when they placate you and are after a friendly who's nearby. I liked clap on my brute in SC too, good for those squishies who got too close when taunted or something. Few squishies have resists to disorient.

I wanna see some PvP vids Joe :P

Yep, my next project, actually. Apparently it's easier than I had realized, so I've been meaning to do a few. probably some instructional ones too, depending on how much bandwidth I can get out of a site.

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Yep, my next project, actually. Apparently it's easier than I had realized, so I've been meaning to do a few. probably some instructional ones too, depending on how much bandwidth I can get out of a site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this guide has inspired me to make a Ice/SS tank, I am having a blast playng him and he seems like he will be great in PvP.

I think the tank who fought me in Warburg today had read this guide. I didnt know any thing about Ice armor before this guide except that it is Teh_Gimpzor. So any way, to day in the WEB I came across an Ice/EM tanker. So we began fighting, and I was winning at first, when suddenly, BAM, I am at half endurance from 80% endurance. Then, my attacks are all slowed. And then I get stunned through integration. We slugged it out, and my QR made a good show, but EA and CE eventually drained me and took my teeth away. After a long epic battle (Probably five minutes. In the middle some MM punk showed up and we whooped him together) He beat me. He was a great sport, and offered me my Code back as we congratulated eachother. But I let him keep it, he earned it for beeting my FOTM [censored] with his "Gimp" build

Let me explain something.

Ice Armor is a 2 trick pony. Massive End drain and the Hibernation chicken button. That's about it. If you resist End drain, you can just pummel them into hibernation over and over. Myself, I can beat one to a pulp with my brute, but they always just hibernate.

Take it from me, if you actually want to never die in a 1 on 1 fight, go ahead and play Ice.

For teams, Ice just isn't as good as fire, since Fire can heal without needing to be out of the fight for about 30 seconds while your team gets crushed.

Also, don't expect to be able to kill another brute or tanker if they have end drains of their own or a resistance to end drain of any kind. I can go toe to toe with an ice tanker and neither can die. In fact, I went afk with healing flames on auto with my /Fire tank vs that very tank (Ice-Cubed) and came back to find myself still at 100% health.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me explain something.

Ice Armor is a 2 trick pony. Massive End drain and the Hibernation chicken button. That's about it. If you resist End drain, you can just pummel them into hibernation over and over. Myself, I can beat one to a pulp with my brute, but they always just hibernate.

Take it from me, if you actually want to never die in a 1 on 1 fight, go ahead and play Ice.

For teams, Ice just isn't as good as fire, since Fire can heal without needing to be out of the fight for about 30 seconds while your team gets crushed.

Also, don't expect to be able to kill another brute or tanker if they have end drains of their own or a resistance to end drain of any kind. I can go toe to toe with an ice tanker and neither can die. In fact, I went afk with healing flames on auto with my /Fire tank vs that very tank (Ice-Cubed) and came back to find myself still at 100% health.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no...let ME explain something....

1st) The word Rookie is by your name. Live it, learn it, love it. Walk with a humble and affable attitude and kindness will be shown you. Think your the sh** and start talking crap to people, and you're begging to be slapped down. Clearly you have little idea what you are talking about, your own post proves that.

2) Fire tanks suck in pvp. They're better in 1v1 than teams. Why? Controllers and their HP issues. Ultimately a tanks final line of defense is often their HP, and Fire has roughly 1k less than other optimally built tanks. That's roughly 2/3 my HP. You're vaunted heal is worth exactly squat when overstacked by a hammied up controller, and the opposing team will end up killing you at will. What good is a tank who dies?

Other vulernabilities of Fire tanks include: Slows, -res, crits, stalker vulnerabity, and lack of a tier 9 for the tough stuff. Oh...but when you die, you get to come back rather than respawn. Quite a timesaver. Very helpfull to your team.

In the incidence you refer too, you also never managed to damage me notably. Congratulations. You only did something any other tank can build to do, sit there and ignore each others damage and heal up. We're designed for it. Difference is? If we were both trying to kill each other, I win. If I was attacking you and we had equal back-up? I win. When I blow you off and forget you, while you remember and hold on to the encounter for months? I win.

Some recent threads I've been involved in concerning Fire's suckiness:

Gekos mammoth thread
My asking the pvp community what a viable Fire tanker duelist would look like thread.

Forum dueling? Yep...I win.

GG

[ QUOTE ]
Ice Armor is a 2 trick pony. Massive End drain and the Hibernation chicken button. That's about it. If you resist End drain, you can just pummel them into hibernation over and over. Myself, I can beat one to a pulp with my brute, but they always just hibernate.


[/ QUOTE ]

What Tanker defensive set isn't a 1-2-3 trick pony? That comment doesn't even make any sense. Hell, what brute or Scrapper defensive set isn't? Maybe DA, if you stretch it.

Ice is what it is. Don't be bitter because you can't kill one. If you're jealous of your craptacular Tier 9, there are Devs you can talk to about that.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the tank who fought me in Warburg today had read this guide. I didnt know any thing about Ice armor before this guide except that it is Teh_Gimpzor. So any way, to day in the WEB I came across an Ice/EM tanker. So we began fighting, and I was winning at first, when suddenly, BAM, I am at half endurance from 80% endurance. Then, my attacks are all slowed. And then I get stunned through integration. We slugged it out, and my QR made a good show, but EA and CE eventually drained me and took my teeth away. After a long epic battle (Probably five minutes. In the middle some MM punk showed up and we whooped him together) He beat me. He was a great sport, and offered me my Code back as we congratulated eachother. But I let him keep it, he earned it for beeting my FOTM [censored] with his "Gimp" build

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you on Infinity? You've just described what i do ona regular basis! I always offer up a chance to return codes if I'm not hunting for them. No sense in wasting hard-earned codes.

If it was me you're talking about, then no, I didn't read Darth's guide. I've been a PvPing Ice/EM Tank since Issue 4. I already knew everything he talked about! Darth just has the patience and style fit for writing guides. I've tried, but I suck at it.

[ QUOTE ]
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I think the tank who fought me in Warburg today had read this guide. I didnt know any thing about Ice armor before this guide except that it is Teh_Gimpzor. So any way, to day in the WEB I came across an Ice/EM tanker. So we began fighting, and I was winning at first, when suddenly, BAM, I am at half endurance from 80% endurance. Then, my attacks are all slowed. And then I get stunned through integration. We slugged it out, and my QR made a good show, but EA and CE eventually drained me and took my teeth away. After a long epic battle (Probably five minutes. In the middle some MM punk showed up and we whooped him together) He beat me. He was a great sport, and offered me my Code back as we congratulated eachother. But I let him keep it, he earned it for beeting my FOTM [censored] with his "Gimp" build

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you on Infinity? You've just described what i do ona regular basis! I always offer up a chance to return codes if I'm not hunting for them. No sense in wasting hard-earned codes.


[/ QUOTE ]

ME TOO! I was totally thinking it might have been me, then I saw the post date. My vid card has been down for about a week now, so it couldn't have been me, I've been unable to play for about a week now.

But yeah, as long as they're behaving well and weren't like uber jerks or anything, I offer it back to them. I sure don't want another missile code, I don't even like the temp power, and I don't want to sour people on Warburg.

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Darth just has the patience and style fit for writing guides.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! Put a lot of time into it, but it's almost time for a revamp anyways. I think I'll wait till i7 is a bit further along, to tie some of that in, but it needs a few tweaks anyways.

Darth, thankyou for a thorough guide, i currently have an ice/em tank and this guide will be useful for me so i can actually contribute to my team in SC and WB.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me explain something.

Ice Armor is a 2 trick pony. Massive End drain and the Hibernation chicken button. That's about it. If you resist End drain, you can just pummel them into hibernation over and over. Myself, I can beat one to a pulp with my brute, but they always just hibernate.

Take it from me, if you actually want to never die in a 1 on 1 fight, go ahead and play Ice.

For teams, Ice just isn't as good as fire, since Fire can heal without needing to be out of the fight for about 30 seconds while your team gets crushed.

Also, don't expect to be able to kill another brute or tanker if they have end drains of their own or a resistance to end drain of any kind. I can go toe to toe with an ice tanker and neither can die. In fact, I went afk with healing flames on auto with my /Fire tank vs that very tank (Ice-Cubed) and came back to find myself still at 100% health.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no...let ME explain something....

1st) The word Rookie is by your name. Live it, learn it, love it. Walk with a humble and affable attitude and kindness will be shown you. Think your the sh** and start talking crap to people, and you're begging to be slapped down. Clearly you have little idea what you are talking about, your own post proves that.

2) Fire tanks suck in pvp. They're better in 1v1 than teams. Why? Controllers and their HP issues. Ultimately a tanks final line of defense is often their HP, and Fire has roughly 1k less than other optimally built tanks. That's roughly 2/3 my HP. You're vaunted heal is worth exactly squat when overstacked by a hammied up controller, and the opposing team will end up killing you at will. What good is a tank who dies?

Other vulernabilities of Fire tanks include: Slows, -res, crits, stalker vulnerabity, and lack of a tier 9 for the tough stuff. Oh...but when you die, you get to come back rather than respawn. Quite a timesaver. Very helpfull to your team.

In the incidence you refer too, you also never managed to damage me notably. Congratulations. You only did something any other tank can build to do, sit there and ignore each others damage and heal up. We're designed for it. Difference is? If we were both trying to kill each other, I win. If I was attacking you and we had equal back-up? I win. When I blow you off and forget you, while you remember and hold on to the encounter for months? I win.

Some recent threads I've been involved in concerning Fire's suckiness:

Gekos mammoth thread
My asking the pvp community what a viable Fire tanker duelist would look like thread.

Forum dueling? Yep...I win.

GG

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

Rookie?

DarthJoe: Registered on 04/12/05 09:41 AM

Darknesse: Registered on 04/05/04 03:22 PM

A year. 1 year more time playing different ATs and characters in this game. The number of trollish posts spewed here has nothing to do with ingame knowledge, just how much you feel you have to tell everyone else your opinion. Before you bother calling someone else uninformed or whatever, look at their actual game experience.

Again, I reiterate, 2 tricks. That's it. Those 2 tricks are good against someone that has no defense against them, but I believe that Electric Armor will be strictly better in 1 on 1 compared to Ice Armor, as it has superior utility I believe.

Haha, more time in game does not equate to more experience, sorry. Frankly, intellegence and ability to learn faster have their variables too, but let's not go there. It's not your fault man...some people are just a bit slower than others.

I linked you to 2 threads talking about how Fire sucks. There are plenty more to find. Accept it as gospel.

I, too, would like that to change, but wishing does not make it so.

As someone else pointed out, there's not really ANY tank out there with too many tricks...Fire is so less than nothing without it's heal it's not even funny. So, I guess, even from your point of view, if Ice has two tricks (and it really has three, btw), then Fire has only one. Wewt!

What a lame, self-defeating argument to make. *rolls eyes*

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The number of trollish posts spewed here has nothing to do with ingame knowledge,

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Oh...I'm trolling my own guide? You don't even make sense, you're just mad cause you're a newb who got shut down with your BS opinions. Go ahead, say WE'RE trolling YOU now....you make me laugh.

So...I mean, btw...we're on the same server and all...if you're so convinced you pwn on your Fire, you pick a teamate, I'll pick a teamate, we can duel it out. I guarantee you, my side wins. *shrugs*

Is it ok if I Frap it for the video?

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Darth, thankyou for a thorough guide, i currently have an ice/em tank and this guide will be useful for me so i can actually contribute to my team in SC and WB.

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NP, man, glad people are enjoying it.