[ QUOTE ]
Just because you say fire sucks doesn't make it so. If you actually do the math, Fire has better protection than /ice does, ESPECIALLY where energy damage and the like is involved in PVP.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the problem with paper-dueling, man. The numbers may look good, but if you miss one variable, you're screwed. In this case, you've overlooked several that will really hurt your team performance.
[ QUOTE ]
What I am saying is that /Fire has equal if not better survivability, since we all know that Defense is next to useless in PVP
[/ QUOTE ]
A) Defense isn't all Ice has. In fact, it's literally one of the last of our tools I'd rely on.
[ QUOTE ]
and has a higher damage output by a good deal over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
B) Yeah...sorta. What you're referring to is Fiery Embrace, which has, if I recall, a 120s recharge timer on it. With no to-hit bonus in it (it's only +100% Base damage), a long timer, and the reality of using both it, build up, and then the big EM attacks while trying to keep endurance and accuracy under control to affect overall output, I think you're not walking the high-DPS line you'd like to be.
But, in general, Fiery Embrace is not all it's cracked up to be. The damage boost is base, not enhanced, and failing a to-hit bonus, you need to use it in conjunction with FA (end hog power) or Build Up. Endurance and realistic accuracy concerns end up being a problem, as does "tempo" in pvp.
** I admit I could be off by a bit, laptop is down and it's got my planner on it. That's from memory, but I'm certain it's no less than a 90s timer, at best.
[ QUOTE ]
For teams, since Fire is not required to stand still for about 30 seconds while healing and can continue to fight
[/ QUOTE ]
C) Ice goes from zero to full in 8s in hibernate. However, since we also take aid self, end game, we don't have to pause for any longer than a great number of melee toons to heal up, and not at all if there's a team healer...did I mention we have more HP than you? I'm also regaining a ton of end while your Fire tank is over there burning through blues or trying to find a mob to leach from. Go ahead...consume me. I'll EA it right back.
Didn't even read the guide, did you? Paper dueling = bad. Who the hell stays in hibernate for 30s? 
! Fool.
[ QUOTE ]
a fire tanker is more mobile in an extended conflict, and better for his teammates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Even when slowed? Did I mention Ice has many slow resistances?
D) How "good for his teamates" is a dead fire tank? Cause you really DON'T have anywhere near the overall survivability of an Ice tank, despite what you believe.
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Trust me...I've been dueling since i4. I LIVE in warburg on our server (except right now, yeah yeah, laptop guy coming out this week). I duel the SG, and I hit up test to duel with the other pvp nuts.
I'm not just plugging something in and then arguing like I think I know something, which appears to be what you're doing. I'm not just fighting 1-2 types of opponents, those I "know I can take", like a lot of people do, and then saying it's a good build. I've fought everything in the game and I KNOW what Ice can do, and I KNOW what Fire can do, and for pvp, team or solo, Ice is as superior all-rounder.
Note that you can do OK 1v1, and just picking on people you know you can beat. It helps to only engage when Fiery Embrace is up, which I guess is what you're doing. But you saw how big an impact it had on Ice, it's pretty much just a squishy-killing strategy, making you far more the one-trick pony than Ice/em will ever be. You'll still have a lot of trouble in team pvp. And you already admitted Ice is better 1v1...and we've now deduced Fire isn't so good in teams either...so...what's you point?
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[ QUOTE ]
Done with this. Gday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah...people like to slink away when they're losing an argument. Notice you didn't want to duel for the camera to show how much your Fire/em pwns, huh?
"Forum dueling? Yep...I win. "
GG.
oh man, no duel? i'd take a break from wow to log back in to cov for that. need a teammate darth? 
i still remember the first time my nooblet corrupter went up against you and i got pwned bad. totally wasn't prepared for the slows or the end drain or anything. but then i learned to stay far far away. . . and hate hibernate.
a lot.
nice guide btw, i may have to steal one of your builds.
You know i was gonna come in here and stick up for my second favorite ice tank, but looks like he pwns scepticism like i pwn...well everything.
Great guide man, i liked your little SS topic too.
Mad props to you, and if you need a team mate to bash on lameass brutes with bad attitudes just give me a holla'.
-Z3ro
Hey Mega and Cuth.
Nah, my computer is STILL down, thanks to Dell, so I'm not on until late THIS week now. A month for a vid card swap out is ridiculous...
Anyways, though, there is some server pvp and I was thinking about going free-agent for the arena leagues, so we'll talk about that if I'm back up and running in time.
WOOT! I HAVE THE POWA!
(laptop is fixed, now testing out RV off and on for the next month or so. So far, looks good...)
Current Draft of the Update. Will probably follow-up within the week with a new guide in another thread.
"Return of the Guide"...Darth's Guide to Ice/EM tanks in PvP v 2.0
The guide returns! This is an updated and expanded version of my original Ice/EM guide. This guide is intended to be a comprehensive overview with in-depth analysis and strategy discussion for Ice armor and a few secondary/epic powerset choices in PvP, with focus on the energy melee secondary. Please note that none of the builds listed are intended to be "the one true build". One of the of the beauties of Ice Armor builds in pvp is the fair degree of flexibility you get.
About me: A college student at UCF, in Orlando, I play in my spare time. Ice-Cubed, my Ice/em tank, is my favorite toon in COX, ever. I took him on in i3 or i4, as my 3rd or 4th tank. I was impressed by another tank, Z3ro Coo1, whose team I was invited to. He herded so damned well I thought he was a kick-butt fire tank till I bothered to check his info, only to discover one of the few high level Ice tanks I'd ever seen. He later took the time to tell me he did very well in pvp too, and had me observe a duel or two when I was skeptical. I also teamed with him in regular PvE missions and was equally impressed with how NOT gimped he was. Later on, since I thought herding was fun, I decided to roll up an Ice tank myself to trade PLs, since the early game has always been a total bore for me. From lvl 20 on, Ice-Cubed was my main, until the massive nerfs of ED and i5 were brought to bear. I left the game for a bit. I later returned and took up Ice again. He is currently lvl 41 on virtue, and I bother to level him when I can take a break from pvp, which is what I really enjoy as our "end game" content. I duel in the arena, in the zones, in teams and solo.
Why is Ice good in pvp?
There are many ways to answer this, but the truth is somewhat obscure and involves the concept of "tempo" and the Ice tanks ability to control it. We are, and always have been, the most "controller-y" of the tanks. Rather than the meaty "I'm a ton of HP and res and there's not a [censored] thing you can do about it!" role that other tanks are forced to play, there are many ways to get our job done.
Tempo is the rate things happen in a duel. Simple. An SG mate of mine, Chucifer, wrote an in-depth analysis of tempo and it's affects for our SG, and reading that, I understood why my Ice/Em was strong. Incidentally, it's also the reason Stalkers do so well in zones. They are often able to work at their own tempo. Tempo is the reason you hear things like "burst damage is good in pvp" and "Blasters rock!" and "Omg that stalker is cheap!" and so forth. These are all expressions of the same fact...within the world of pvp, all ATs have their own rate of doing and taking damage, managing endurance, and movement. Several factors are involved, including: Recharge, Damage, Accuracy, Resistance, Defense, HP, Endurance, Heals, Range, etc.
Consider the extreme example of a BS scrapper facing off against a /devices blaster. If the scrapper, with no ranged attacks, left off his mez protection, the blaster could use web grenade to immobilize him and, by backing up, reduce that scrappers damage output 100%, while still being able to infict 100% of his damage. That blaster would eventually win that duel, as the scrappers damage output would be zero. As long as the Blaser himself could do enough damage to overcome the Scrappers natural health regen/defenses/etc while the scrapper sits there like a paper-weight, and I mean even 1% more damage than needed, the blaster will eventually win that fight.
When a build is forced to work outside its chosen tempo, that build is at a noticiable disadvantage. Any build that can FORCE another toon to move at a different speed has powerfull advantages.
Ice, unlike most other tanks, has several tools to influence tempo. Unlike controllers or caster builds that can also alter tempo (blasters, dominators, controllers), our tools often don't need a target and are AoE or pbAoE, helping us a ton when we don't have a target or are in melee range against several foes at once.
Below are some of those tools:
<ul type="square">
[*]Energy Absorbtion: In pvp, it's a pbAoE attack can be fired every 30s, if slotted and w/o hasten. With hasten, it's roughly every 22s. When fired, it drains roughly 1/3 any targets endurance within the pbAoE range and refills a small amount of yours PER FOE hit by the attack, as well as granting a small defense bonus per foe (in the 1% range, per foe, not really of note, but important to remember in case you have a choice of hitting that MM or Controller NEAR his pets or AWAY from his pets). Hitting mulitple foes in pvp can top up your endurance, but obviously comes with it's own dangers. It's most usefull in head to head melee duels, and really gets interesting when fighting multiple melee opponents at once. My Ice/Em once took on 3 equal level brutes in Warburg who were silly enough to sit inside melee range. Not only did they fall prey to ALL of my tempo altering powers, they mostly fell prey to EA...by trying to build fury, they stayed in melee range for the leach, thus costing them all their endurance over time and keeping me gassed up and firing. Anyways, a total endurance drain will drop all toggles, often leaving the opposing player vulernable to mez attacks and more vulernable to damage, with the added bonus of making it harder for them to run or fight back. I usually go for the toggle-drop + Build Up + TF combo for the stun, then follow up with an ET and a Bonemasher/Ice-Blast before BU wears off. It's devastating if they don't manage to get out of the way in time.
EA used to be primarily a Defense buff that increased with the number of nearby foes, and retains a diminished aspect of that ability in it's current form. In general, you're encouraged to just use EA as an endurance draining/buffing ability, but it's worth noting you can use this buff to get a decent defense boost with EA off a few MM pets, which helps even more since they struggle to hit +con, defense based enemies anyways. Just be aware of it...like the endurance buff, it only gets better with the more foes you can get into range before you shoot it off.
[*]Chilling Embrace: It's a 32% -recharge and a 14% damage debuff, both unenhanceable. Both only apply to people silly enough to stand in it's PbAoE aura, which has a range of 10ft in a bubble around the user. It does, however, have an enhanceable slow movement that can often stack up well with the slow movement powers of others on your team, which is handy for keeping people within the area of the debuffs. Primarily of interest is it's ability to affect recharge times, followed by it's ability to interupt AS, and reveal concealed foes. Many, many otherwise whup-booty builds fall apart with a recharge penalty applied to them...controllers can't get out pets again, scrappers can't get that heal off in time, and nobodies high-damage, burst attacks are up when they wish they were. For those builds who only have 1-3 attacks, this is critical, as it basicly keeps them sitting there looking at you a lot, waiting for their powers to recharge. Rage is no longer perma. Stoners get off an attack like once a week. Tier 9s take even longer to recharge. Hasten, self heals, etc, all take much longer, exposing gaps in the builds of other players they might not have known were there. Lemme put it this way...if 2 tanks, with otherwise equal stats, faced off, and one of em had a pbAoE -recharge, the one with that power will win every time.
A word on the slow movement portion. The -movement, in and of itself, is not particularly valuable. You don't slot it to slow passing super-speeders, or Combat Jumpers. If they're not attacking you, any toon moving at 50+ mph is going to be into and back out of your little 20ft (max, side to side) aura before they've even noticed the effects. You slot it, in pvp, because of suppression. A great many dedicated pvp builds have Swift or, more likely, Hurdle 3-slotted to help avoid the "suppression" effect in PvP. This allows for ease of kiting on Blapper and Scrapper builds. However, when a target attacks you AND is Chilling Embraces range, they do get noticiably slowed. This has annoyed many a blapper in its day, as it breaks up their kiting strategy. Even if they DO detoggle one of my 4+ toggles and get my mez protection, they spend too much time getting BACK into range to put a disorient on me. Meanwhile, if you're in melee range and sticking around for a few, I'm going to be firing away with Energy Transfer and Total Focus. This brings it to it's other realistic pvp application, the "Melee toon who is losing" application. When a scrapper or brute, or tank or stalker, is losing a fight vs. another melee toon, a lot of times they can simply Jump or SS away. This is not true when facing and Ice tank with CE. If you wait to run until your in the low red HP, I'm GOING to get one more shot in, thanks to Chilling Embrace.
Think of it like a patch of sand you come across in a vehicle: Drive through at speed and you'll never notice. Stop for a moment, break momentum, and it just became a LOT harder to get out. It's even better if you can throw an Ice Epic blast after them, especially on teams, but we'll get to that later...
[*]Hibernate: What is usually a laughingstock of the tanker community really shines with the concept of tempo. Another, more traditional, tier 9 power for melee toons has a large +def or +res with a 2-3 min timer, an endurance crash, and a long recharge to follow. Hibernate has a 120s base recharge, and essentially functions as a power-rest mode with a phase component. What I mean is, you are stuck in one spot, unable to do anything else (except select an action to immediately follow release from hibernate, an extremely usefull feature), with rather massive hp and endurance regeneration for a time up to 30s in duration. You cannot be damaged or affected in any way, except, it seems, by Repel, which will move you around in a phased state.
Hibernate is especially nice in FFA and team arena duels. In a team duel, for example, my teamates might be elsewhere and I come under fire from several blasters. As they get excited, whittling down my HP, I wait till I'm about to die then pop hibernate. Not only will they have to wait, up to 30s, to start doing damage again, they'll also have to get past my defenses and HP all over again to get a kill! My teamates may or may not come to my rescue, but either way I've likely kept multiple players focuses on me and given my teamates elsewhere a numbers advantage for 20-50s so they can rack up kills.
If the opposing side realizes that hibernate is just going to waste their time, they usually take off in search of squishier targets. This is good for you too, since you get to stay alive and come out swinging and taunting things again.
Hibernate, as mentioned above, lets you select one power to go into effect immediately following the end of it's effects. This means, for example, if I've been overstacked on holds and popped a BF, I can hibernate and let the holds dissipate in the phase period. However, I controller would be free to re-hold me immediately after hibernate ended because my mez shield would still be down from my being held before I hibernated. Since I can set my mez shield to go up immediately, this is a notable saving grace of this power.
An amusing aspect of Hibernate is that since it's not readily recognized, many ppl try to brawl you, or keep attacking, or pop build up, or some such nonsense. Though of little pracitcal value, it does provide some amusement as you sit there and heal up for a few.
Note that many people have whined to me that they think the recharge is too low on tanker hibernate. In teams, there are definately times you'll wish it was up MORE often, and many Ice tanks take Aid Self to reduce their vulnerability and the amount of time they need to hibernate.
[*]Resistance to slow effects: It simply means that other toons aren't as easily able to affect OUR recharge times and movement speeds, meaning that, in a larger way, we're more in control of our builds tempo than other toons are. EA has the biggest slow-resistance when used, so if you pop out of hibernate into a bunch of slow-fields and surrounding foes, pop an EA and hit the road a bit easier, if necessary.
[*]Taunt: Further discussion on the taunt changes will be discussed below in the "Team PvP section". A few people couldn't figure out where I talked about whether to take taunt or not, so this serves as a sign-post...it's down further, guys.
Taunt belongs in any discussion on tempo because it essentially reduces an opponents damage to a chosen target by quite a bit, redirecting it into the tank himself.
[/list]
"But Darth! You didn't mention Defense! I thought Ice was Defense-based?"
I hear people say Ice is a defense-based build all the time. It gets lumped in with SR and EA and a lot of other sets. In the first version of this guide, I don't think I mentioned defense ANYWHERE in the whole thing. It is one of our least-usefull tools.
In fact, in the old days, the Ice/em tanks at the time didn't even take the defense armors for pvp builds, except sometimes Glacial for perception. Now that pvp defense has been buffed, they're definately worth taking and slotting.
For the record, a 3-slotted Frozen Armor, Glacial Armor, and Wet Ice will yield roughly 27.6% defense to S/L/E/NE and capped Cold resistance. Frozen Armor comes with an un-enhanceable Fire res of 12.5%, as well. That, plus most of Fire damage attacks actually being 1/2 smashing, is why Fire isn't a huge threat to us. Psi is still the big dog, and Toxic, when applicable.
With EA thrown in, it's tough to guess you're average defense...with one target, figure roughly 30% defense most of the time. It only gets better if other targets are nearby to get a bit extra defense from, but, again, it's not a huge deal in pvp. When most pvp players have to figure out how to hit some guy in Elude or MoG, trying to get around your 30% defense is like trying to get worried about a speedbump when driving in your Hummer. It's a non-issue, and most people won't even know it's there.
What, then, is Ice vulnerable to in PvP?
Well, with only mediocre defenses, Ice is vulernable to high accuracy, sustained burst damage, especially from foes with good endurance management. Also, unlike a lot of tanks, we can't really take concentrated fire from too many sources at once for any real period of time...however, we do have hibernate to make up for this in some regard.
For example...at lvl 50, my Ice tank has:
2979.5hp with Hoarfrost running, 1874.1 without. In the hasten gap, I can spend up to a minute in a lower HP state (handy time to hibernate for 30s, if you ask me..). With hasten, it's only 16s. I always recomend getting the +HP accolades
Hibernate is up every 61.56s without hasten, and 45.29 with hasten up. Note that this is the time it takes to recharge after you stop using it...it's a toggle, like phase.
My passive heal rate, from Health, is 149 per tick, with Hoarfrost up, and a 1-full time of 134.9s. (not accounting for Accolades)
So, in order to kill my tank (assuming optimal, prepared for combat conditions), an opposing player must deal out roughly 3k damage that must all get past my defenses (roughly 30% on average, depending on build) in under 45s, or before I can hibernate. The alternative is to deal less damage in that amount of time, but prevent me from activating hibernate at the correct time, most likely by way of a mez power.
I can tell you from experience, there are only 2 (now 3) main threats that can accomplish this in time...a Scrapper with acc/dam hammis and running Focussed Accuracy and a controller, (usually fire/rad), hammied-out, setting up containment and then blasting with APP powers. Both are primarly 40+ threats, so Icers do very well in Warburg and in lower PvP zones.
Additionally, MMs are now capable of out-lasting and damaging Ice tanks with the current Bodyguard up on test. If we had more AoEs or cones, such might not be the case, but be aware of this fact for 1v1 and remember this when reviewing the Epics below.
Other Armors and tanks in PvP:
Why Ice as opposed to the other sets? Well, pvp has changed a lot for tankers since its introduction. Originally, we were nigh-invincible high defense-medium damage dealers who were pretty solid in pvp. With the introduction of toggle-dropping, crits for scrappers, unresistable damage, and a lot of buffs to other classes, Granite and Invuln were left with the role of Taunt-bots when in their tier 9 powers, and Ice and Fire were left with a more scranky approach. Then taunt was nerfed, and so was Invuln. Ice took dominance as the best of the scrankers, with taunt-botting being left primarily to Stone tanks who took the presence pool taunts as well and spammed them. Since Ice was more mobile, it was the #1 pvp tank at that time. However, currently toggle-dropping is being scaled back, and Taunts ability has been changed as well.
It is now possible, once again, to play taunt-bot, if that is your wish. If so, I would build a Granite/Focussed Accuracy or Tactics build and slot lots of accuracy in your Taunt abilities. Your role is essentially to play an aggro door-stop to any opposing player who happens by. You will likely still have trouble taunting high defense toons, and will yourself be annoyed by being taunted, which usually locks two taunt-capable toons into a taunt-war to keep each other locked down. We'll discuss Taunt below, and it's current applications and pitfalls.
Granite is still the relatively unkillable man about town. However, a smart opposing team will just slap a few debuffs on you and ignore you. Any -to-hit is going to hurt a lot, especially your taunting, as is any additional -recharge that comes your way. Teleport is ponderous to use in a world of SuperJumpers.
Invuln is a fine set, but like EA, SR, and a lot of other sets with tier 9 powers, it really performs best when in Unstoppable. Unstoppable is basicly 3 minutes of life for an almost certain death afterwards. Invuln got a lot of it's strength back with the nerf to toggle-dropping, but lacks endurance management and slow resistance, which I find essential in pvp. In general, I would say Invuln is a solid all-rounder for pure tank pvp.
Fire is a scranker in pvp. While sometimes solid, IMO the HP is too low to really scrank well, and endurance issues can be a problem. Low HP is a problem with mez stacking, Assasin Strikes, Psi damage, and a variety of other issues out there. 2 build-ups is nice though. A fire tank will lose to an Ice tank in a 1v1 though, or draw if he does not bother to try to win.
Why Energy Melee?
Energy Melee is the premier damage dealer among tanker secondaries (and in most classes, for that matter). It also excels in burst damage for the reasons listed in the post in my sig...essentially, in addition to being nice in pvp for a variety of reasons, burst damage is far more suited to becoming DPS than vice versa, especially for an Ice tank who will be taking Hasten, Stamina, and Tactics/Focussed Accuracy.
Epics:
IMO, there are only 2 Epics a pvp tank can seriously look at. The Energy Mastery or Artic Mastery (Ice) Epic sets. Fire has some damage, but not really that much and little other synergy.
Energy primarily offers the vaunted Focussed Accuracy, discussed below, the rarely-taken Conserve Power, and two weak blasts with limited damage and range not really worth talking about much. Most people take FA and possibly laser eyes and leave the rest of that set alone.
Ice offers an Immob, a Hold, a very nice ranged blast, and a nova-like power. In my opinion, they stack very well with an Ice tanks other abilites to make kind of a TankTroller for team purposes. IMO, the stacking abilities, less-resisted damage type, and superior ranged abilities make up for taking tactics over Focussed Accuracy and the Energy pool
Here are the base stats:
<ul type="square">[*]Chillblain: 1.17s activation, 50ft range, 2.778 BI in DoT (cold)damage, 10s recharge, 15s duration. -recharge, -speed.
Although immobs are commonly resisted by people taking CJ, I find this an uber-usefull power for several reasons. First, it's pretty spammable when slotted, especially with HOs. That means it's easy to over-stack squishy immob resistances, if you can stay in range and spam this. Even for the second it takes them to pop a BF, that's time your rushing in with SS, popping a Build Up on the way and bringing the pain. Good stuff.
The DoTs are good stalkers, which is nice, cause you're not going to slot this for damage anyways, so you might as well get as much use as possible out of it. I wouldn't go with less than 4 slots until you get pretty HOed out. And range SOs only give you about another 10ft apiece, not usually the best value, but I have thought of putting a few in there, from time to time...usually when I'm being TKed into a corner and wish I had something other than Ice-Blast to fire back with.
Spamming this, plus Ice-Blast for damage, plus trying to get into melee range for the EM big guns (which brings CE to bear on your target), works out as a pretty ghastly -recharge on your opponents at most times.
[*]Block of Ice: 1.87s activation, 80ft range, 2.778 BI (cold), 32s recharge, 15s duration, -recharge, -speed.
Some people like this power. I do not. It's recharge is long, it's a pain to over-stack, and they are just going to use a Breakfree anyways. I'm not trying to hold you anyways, I'm just trying to get you to sit still long enough to pound your a**. Failing that, I'd like to slow you down and reduce your effectiveness. Chillblain works nicely.
[*]Ice-Blast: 1s activation, 80ft range, 4.556 BI (2.778 cold, 1.778 smash), 6s recharge, -recharge, -speed.
Good damage. I replaced Bonemasher in my chain with Ice blast. It's recharge is slower (8s), but it did stack disorients with the rest of EM. Ultimately, I felt the tradeoff in range and stacking of -movement and -speed was more valuable. Often I needed a "kill shot" after an enemy hopped away from a built up ET+TF...a built-up Ice-Blast does nicely, from range. The stacking of the -recharge/movement is just a perk, I wouldn't bother to slot for it, but be aware that keeping it a big part of my chain works adds damage mitigation to the melee foes I engage, just like my CE aura.
[*]Ice-Storm: 2.03s activation, 60ft range, 7.344 BI DoT (1/2 cold, 1/2 lethal), 120s recharge, 15s duration, -recharge, -speed.
A big AoE that does DoT and takes a long time to activte is pretty much a total dog in most pvp. Ice Storm will be usefull in zones, though.
To start off, tanks just happen to be the best AT to defend a pill-box with. Gaining control of the guns, aiming those well (with stacked perception to see almost all incoming foes) + Ice storm to effect...hibernate to bail you out...it's a nice way to hang on to a box under attack. Remember to actively focus the guns attacks, preferably first on buffer classes, then on any Hidden stalkers, then on Doms, then whoever is left.
For MMs with the new Bodyguard feature, it's probably the only AoE you will have. Stacked with CE for -movement when they're near you, I'd hit BU, cast it at your feet and it should wipe out at least the lower-tier minions. It can also be good for stalkers and high-defense melee toons, defensively...the power auto-hits, and thus automaticly applies it's -movement and -recharge to the opposing player. Again, stacked with CE in melee range, it's a powerfull auto-hitting slow effect that will make foes miserable. If you're in a duke-out with a Regen, for instance.
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The Builds: This section got a total revamp with i7. There are several reasons for this. First, I feel taunt, in it's current form, on test, is now HIGHLy situational
These are builds with as minimal HOs as I thought would be practical.
(under construction, basicly one Ice/em with the power epic and one without)
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Other Versions:
Ice/EM vs Ice/SS:
Many people have asked me about other secondaries. I will say that the most usefull secondary OTHER than /EM I can think of would be /SS. As things currently stand, an Ice/SS would be much more usefull than my Ice/EM in Sirens Call, for instance.
This is a possible Ice/SS/Ice build. Ultimately I prefer the Ice epic over the Fire epic. Essentially the tradeoff is damage for -movement, -recharge, both of which stack well when you get in range and put CE on them. To see a comparison of Ice/SS/Fire and Ice/EM/Fire damage, check the following posts for my DPS/Burst comparo. Ultimately, SS gives up something like 30% in burst damage for, presumably, greater DPS and AoE damage.
Power Pools:
Power pools further differentiate one build from another. There is a lot of flexiblity here, but I always recomend Hasten and the Fitness pool at a minimum. Health/Stamina is simply TOO usefull, especially for a tank. Hurdle or Swift, slotted, helps with suppression issues, which can hurt a melee toon a lot. Hasten is simply TOO good to pass up for getting all those clickies around in time and tighting up an attack chain for difficult targets.
For a solo build, the Medicine pool can do very well. Solo, I don't find myself NEEDING a heal in between Dull Pain and Hibernate very often at all, and in teams I should have buffs/heals at my disposal, so I don't prefer it for my build. It's very much a YMMV power though, and I now recomend it for most serious arena duelers. Note that my team builds above do not have it...with so much toggle-debuffing going on, that no amount of interuption reduction can break through, and my general impressions of team pvp in RV, I have elected NOT to include it in my zone builds. With IoPs for added mez protection, I just bring a few greens for the occasions when I might have wanted a heal, and enjoy the use of other powers in the meantime.
Leadership/Tactics is covered elsewhere. Assault and Tactics Fear/Placate/Taunt res to a whole team is a good deal, though.
Tp Foe can still be a great help to an Ice tank. In i7 it got a nerfed a tad and I generally don't recomend it anymore for 50v50 pvp.
<ul type="square">[*]At the 40 cap in Warburg, I used it to make up for my lack of dedicated vertical movement power and lack or ranged attacks. Usually, if ppl are out of range of TP Foe I'm not really that worried about them anyway.
That being said, anyone who PvPs without TP Foe on a bind is silly, IMO, especially for a melee toon. Tp Foe is interruptable, and it's important to recognize your interruptions when you slot the power. For instance, I recomend 2x interupt redux, which is NOT, IMO, enough to get through a fire DoT attack or Caltrops. It is enough to get one off between most melee or ranged attack chains. My interest in slotting for redux is reduced by the fact that NO amount of redux will let you TP Foe within the influence of a slow power OR a debuff. This includes any rad, dark, or sonic debuffs, and notably snowstorm from the controller/defender crowd. The only way to get around these are to break perception, and by the time you do that you might as well have chased down the original target anyway.
I bound mine to "T", which is close to my movement keys. When a target runs, I moved my left finger over a key and brought their butts back. Target the ground near you and cue up either ET, TF, or, if you've taken it, stun. With good players you'r only likely to get one shot in, so make it a good one. The bind looks like this { /bind t powexec_name "Teleport Foe"}.
Also, in burg, with boating squishies who super-jump when teleported, you might try going under the little bridges by the beach, which are close quarters and teleport them into there. They'll start to jump automaticly, confused, hit the underside of the ledge 5ft up, and you'l have em dead with a Build Up combo before they figure it out. This is just one example, I'm always looking for spots like these to use TP foe in. The pools in Warburg are also great for Stone brutes/tanks who won't come out of granite, but weren't smart enough to take TP too. With no jump, they can't escape the pool unless they drop both granite AND rooted (you know, they're mez protection?) Getting them to drop that, pray they don't have BF, and hit em with ET+TF as soon as they pop out.[/list]
Travel Powers:
I'm also a big believer in Super-Speed for Icers. It allows me to be extremely mobile as a gound force. If you DO need to run, you can, and at great speed. Your resistance to slows means it takes so many opposing players to slow you down they might as well have killed you instead. When teamed, I need my teamates to drop repel based toons, then I SS in with BU and put em the rest of the way down. Ice/EM is largely about combat support in teams, and SS gets you in and out faster. Cue SS, hit "f" to follow, and zoom in on stuff till their dead or you are. If they go over vertical objects, I have hurdle and possibly CJ for respectable "hops". If they want to hang out on top of a building, it's all good...they're effectively out of combat, not annoying my team, and I could give a flip what they do up there. *shrugs*
Maybe you noticed I have no dedicated vertical power on my pvp builds and wonder why. 2 reasons... a) Arena duels offer temp powers, and b) I don't find them really needed in RV...SS + Hurdle + Swift is enough. I blast stuff from range as I zoom in, and if it's flying/hovering I immob and drop it with Chillblain. If things are out of range of either of those powers, I can usually drop them out of the air or they're jumping around with CJ...if they do it long enough, you can overstack them at the same time you're slowing them with Ice blasts.
IF, however, you choose to go SS/Teleport instead, remember to get a good set of binds. I find teleport unwieldy. When I need to use it as an escape hatch, I probably don't have the endurance or are being interupted too much to use it as such. While a nice value at only one more power than Teleport Foe, you can say the same for SS. I find it easier to follow highly mobile toons with SS, but SS does require you to take a vert power, and your main other option is SJ. It IS nice for repel, especially a Mind/Storm who will repel your butt around the arena like a hockey puck with Telekenisis and Hurricane.
All builds/ideas are valid. I'm not here to get into an argument over what is better, because the truth is another one of Ice/Ems strengths is that it's a build with enough room to be good at a few different things. As noted, the above build is my all-rounder, what I run in teams and solo. There are other builds, some which focus on blasters and controllers which I call "anti-caster", and others which would strengthen you vs. melee toon. Each gives up something in opportunity cost to focus on one side or the other, and I have simply found my build above to be the best match for my playstyle and common pvp matches.
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Focussed Accuracy vs Tactics:
In general, you will need SOME kind of passive to-hit buff other than build-up when dueling. FA is obviously superior to tactics at what it does, especially solo.
To overview:
Focussed Accuracy:
To-Hit: 18.5% to-hit, base, 28.68% with 3x SO slotting. (Dev confirmed numbers)
Endurance: Listed at .59 endurance per second...greater than 2x the standard defense toggle. With 3x SOs...it's down to .3 EPS.
Non-rooting activation
10s recharge.
Tactics:
To-Hit: ~7% for melee toons and blasters, ~11% with 3x SOs.
Endurance: Listed at .4 EPS (.21 with 3x SO slotting)
Roots on activation
15s recharge
However, tactics is very team friendly and it + Assault make a pretty nice package, helping out with fear/placate/taunt as well as upping your damage and the damage of all those around you.
For a team-tank, Tactics + Assault isn't a bad choice at all, especially since it looks like leadership is gaining popularity and there's a greater chance of stacking the buffs in teams.
I've been using a more anti-caster build of Ice on the Test server, and it's been working pretty well. As you can see from some of the builds posted, I recomend the Ice epic in particular, but Fire is a good match as well.
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Endurance Management:
Ok, one of the key endurance management tricks is to keep your enhancements in stamina as green as reasonably possible. With the base recovery rate and stamina, I can run all of my toggles and have a healthy, positive recovery rate. This ends up working out well for pvp, becuause my damage is usually done in bursts as other squishies tend to run as hard as they can, or simply die and save me some endurance/time in chasing them down. In protracted melee duels, they usually become a "war of attrition" for the other guys endurance. Very few melee toons can effectively kite an Ice tank...they run up against our mass of hp and our hibernate strategy. So they'll be motivated to stay in melee range, and they'll keep you fed with enduance. Once they start to get low on endurance, try to time it so you can get a Energy Absobtion (to toggle-drop them) +BU+ET+TF string off. Most melee types will end up being mezzed, though it may take awhile for SR scrappers and Regen scrappers/stalkers can take a resistance to disorient effects power.
You should not particularly need endurance or be winded vs ranged toons. You're positive recovery, even with all toggles running, is enough to support your brief blips of burst damage as you try to put them down.
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Other PvP Goodies:
There are many things one can do get the "edge" in pvp. A few are listed below.
Hammidon and Accolades:
The following is a list of all the HO enhancements available in the game. In the high, high-end pvp in this game, a builds ultimate power relies on how much use they can get out of the powers they have. HOs help make that happen, increasing slotting efficiency. People who point out that HOs are now only 2xSOs are missing the point...a controller, for example, can put 6 HOs in a power and cap out the enhaceable aspects of 4 of that powers aspects. An Ice tank, on the other hand, can only really put 3x HOs in a defense power, capping the enhancement value of 2 of it's aspects.
Nucleolu Exposure= Dmg/Acc <--- 1st priority
Centriole Exposure= Dmg/Rng
Peroxisome Exposure= Dmg/Mez
Endoplasm Exposure= Acc/Mez <--- Of note if you wish to try a build based around "Stun" or for stacking immobilizations from Epics.
Golgi Exposure= Heal/End
RibosomeExposure= Dmg resist/End
Microfilament Exposure= Travel speed/End
Lysosome Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/Acc
Enzyme Exposure= Tohit/Def debuff/End
Membrane Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/Attack rate <--- 2nd priority
Cytoskeleton Exposure= Tohit/Def buff/End <--- 1st priority
*Mez is any holds, stuns, sleep, disorient, and immobilize. Slow and knockback are not considered as Mez.
Update: A few people had asked about more hammied-out builds...here's a fairly hammi-happy build for those of you who just love to raid and want to be pimpin or have nothing else to do. Hammis are mainly used for endurance
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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
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Name: IceCubed
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
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01) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(1) Cyto(3) Cyto(3)
01) --> Barrage==> Nucleo(1) Nucleo(15) Dmg(19) Mez(33)
02) --> Hoarfrost==> Heal(2) Heal(5) Heal(5) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Rechg(9)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Slow(4) Slow(9) Slow(11)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(13) Rechg(13)
10) --> Hurdle==> Jump(10) Jump(11) Jump(15)
12) --> Aid Other==> Heal(12)
14) --> Health==> Heal(14) Heal(19) Heal(21)
16) --> Assault==> EndRdx(16) EndRdx(17) EndRdx(17)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(18) Cyto(21) Cyto(23)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(23) EndMod(25)
22) --> Tactics==> Cyto(22) Cyto(25) Cyto(27)
24) --> Aid Self==> Golgi(24) Golgi(27) Heal(31) IntRdx(31) IntRdx(31) IntRdx(33)
26) --> Super Speed==> Micro(26) Micro(29) Run(29)
28) --> Build Up==> Memb(28) Memb(33) Memb(34)
30) --> Energy Absorbtion==> EndMod(30) EndMod(34) EndMod(34) Rechg(36) Rechg(36) Rechg(36)
32) --> Hibernate==> Heal(32) Heal(37) Heal(37) Rechg(37) Rechg(39) Rechg(39)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Nucleo(35) Nucleo(39) Nucleo(40) Dmg(40) Dmg(40) Dmg(42)
38) --> Total Focus==> Nucleo(38) Nucleo(42) Nucleo(42) Dmg(43) Dmg(43) Rechg(43)
41) --> Chilblain==> Endo(41) Endo(48) Endo(48) Rechg(46) Rechg(46) Rechg(50)
44) --> Ice Blast==> Nucleo(44) Nucleo(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(45) Rechg(46) Rechg(48)
47) --> Ice Storm==> Rechg(47) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)
49) --> Swift==> Run(49)
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01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Rechg(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
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Obviously at this point there are a lot of things you can swap out in that build, it's not meant to be the "set in stone" Ice/em build but only to give you a general idea of how to slot Build-Up, Tactics/FA, your defense shields and epic powers if you really want to go nuts with hammies.
I think the priorities on HOs goes something like this:
a) Things that affect accuracy/to-hit and damage
b) Endurance reducing effects
c) Slot reduction to put more slots into hurdle/swift and other powers that help in pvp.
That build has 24 HOs...at 2-3 hours a raid, assuming the always succeed, that's another 48-72 hours of raiding. Not the end of the world, but a considerable time investment for a fairly mind-numbening activity.
In addition to HOs, I also recomend these accolades in pvp:
Freedom Phalanx: +10% hp.Requirements here.
Portal Jockey: +5% HP and +5% Endurance. Requirements
Atlas Medallion: +5 max endurance. Requirements
(For those wondering, +15% HP to our base, at lvl 50, is 2155hp, buffable to 3426hp with slotted Hoarfrost. Good times...)
Items of Power:
Items of power have been activated for i7 and are another edge you can have in PvP. As of now, not all of the IoPs have been discovered.
Common ones Include:
Monument of Fury: +2% Damage Buff
Monument of Iron: +1% psychic damage resistance.
Name?: +1% XP gain
Name?: +1% Reduced Debt
Rare Items of Power Include:
True Furnace: Gives everyone in supergroup mode +10 end, and provides your base 1 million power.
"crystal of resilience": Provides everyone in supergroup mode protection to immobilize, sleep, hold, and disorient. [note: Bug Report suggests that when working in the base edit mode, the iop was not called "crystal of reslience" but "monument of iron", but it provided the protection from status effects.
Book of Rularuu : complete chronicles of Rularuu that give all SG members 20% Debt Protection while in SG mode. (aka "the True Book"?)
"Book" - unknown (different graphic then the book of rularuu)
Heart - unknown
Cube - unknown
In general your SG will likely be drooling over the Crystal of Resilience (because every squishy has wanted inherent mez protection from something other than accrobatics FOREVER now). Do not neglect the Monument of Fury though...you can have up to 5 IoPs at any one time in the base, so 2-4 of these can really add up. In addition to assault, I had several IoPs on test and Ice was hitting notably harder. Say 8% from IoPs and 10% from assault...ouchie. My big guns really do hurt. Toss a Vengeance in there...whooboy...
If you don't belong to a SG, I highly recomend one, even just for PvE. My SG on Virtue actually isn't that huge on PvP, but I've stuck with them over the years cause they're a good bunch of guys and the SG is run right. The CoX staff seems to be highly encouraging team play and SG bases and such...better to just go with the flow, especially if the IoPs are going to be of such power. I've found that SGs who coordinate with TeamSpeak or Ventrillo and have played together lots can do a lot to take over a zone. The efficiency created by working as a team is phenomenal, and is definately a note-worthy pvp edge.
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Main pvp threats:
<ul type="square">[*]Scrappers:
---Primaries: People highly over-rate DM on just about every toon, imo. I never worry about DM, ToF is their one trick, and if you know how fears work you're good. If a DM uses ToF on you, wait until his next strike and simply hop up and down if nothing else. With Hurdle he'll be getting enough "out of range" responses to mean significant damage reduction on our side of things. In general, DM or DA tends to be rather tight on energy, so just EA and whale on em until they fall down. Spines simply doesn't have the damage for you, and they're usually too busy kiting to really bug me much. They need to double team you at least to be worth bothering with. No, the one to sweat is the big-mama melee damage-dealer of the bunch, Broadsword. It's damage is sick and they're going to laugh at your defenses with FA. They have enough acc and burst to take you down, and /SR and /Regen have the endurance to keep it going, especially with hammies.
---Secondaries: Regen is going to be tough for you, simply because the tanker BI is does not allow enough burst damage to put these toons to bed before they can regen on you. /SR is tough too, as they'll resist your slow aura and have great, often suppression-proof movement speed. With your acc/dam HOs and FA, you can get it done. Don't forget that /SR is end heavy, and an EA at the right moment can drop about 1/2 his defense total in toggles and let you get your groove on, whereas it's extremely unlikely you'll be able to end leach a good regen scrapper through Quick Recovery and the oft-used Stamina. Vs Regen, it's actually very nice to have the Ice epic and get some slows and serious -recharge in there to give you some chance to get those last shots in. Ultimately, it takes so much end to take down a regen it usually ends up being a very close fight, and often a draw.
[*]Controllers/Defenders: Much more dangerous in teams than solo. A high level, hammied out Fire/Rad will likely give you fits solo or on teams. On teams, learn to start taking out the defenders first, especially empaths. They're used to it, and they'll be good at NOT dying, so that's a fun game of cat and mouse. If you've gone with the Ice epic, disrupt caster tempo with Chillblain + Ice blast as much as possible to mess them up. Some controllers are tempo-sensitive enough they can't over-stack mez shields very well, even with HOs, if you pelt them with enough -recharge. Not to mention, if you're chasing them long enough and Chillblain finally punches through, you'll have a second or two to SS up and pelt them a good one.
[*]Masterminds: Now belong on this list because they are often able to out-last enough to take down tough opponents. In teams, BG ends up working against them, because the pets won't focus damage when in Defense mode. Be aware that the pets have to be in-range for BG to work, and have to be in Defense. If the MM is attacking a turret or something, it's a good time to rush in with SS, hit BU on the way, and try to take them down before they can switch to defense mode.
While I think BGs percentages are probably over-powered, I do like that the Devs took an interesting approach that involves knowledge, skill, and playstyle to get around rather than some of the slap-dash fixes they've done in the past.
Again, I recomend Ice-Storm, good mix of BU and your damage attacks. I'd keep chillblain on the MM to slow down those that heal their pets and keep them in some -movement for when they choose to run. Killing through the pets is somewhat impractical for a EM, but a SS could probably use a Foostomp/Handclap and Ice-Storm strategy to blow through the pets and KO the MM.
In general, WH is simply not strong enough that I'd bother to take it in pvp, ever.
[*]Stalkers: We were once the proud papa of the only truly stalker-immune build out there. You have perception. You have massive HP. You have decent defense. You can phase. You HAD an auto-hit slow aura that interupted AS. This had limits, however, in that only YOU are really immune. It's very tough for me to save teamates from stalkers, especially smart ones working in teams to pick off squishy ATs. It's the classic rock-paper-scissor of 1v1 pvp in this game, but since most toons hate stalkers, I just thought it was worth mentioning these guys are no sweat for you, but ARE a threat to any team you may be on, so they still deserve a spot on this list.
Now, recently AS was made un-interuptable by debuff powers. The fate of this is up in the air, but on test they are currently able to AS through CE. It's no biggie, 1v1, still deal-able, but is fairly rough in teams. Circeus and I have had a few discussions on this, but I'll reserve further comment on the CE vs AS issue until decisions have been made and communicated to the user-base.
[/list]
PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank:
<ul type="square">[*]vs. Melee toons: I often rush in there and get off a preemptive EA. They're usually sitting there thinking "whew, thought he was gonna attack me, but the suckers letting me get the first hit in! great!". And that's true too. I want them to get the hit in, cause once i'm down to 2/3 or so HP I hit Hoarfrost to get my +HP and heal in then hasten to get everything charging up on me. This also optimizes my end leach...by opening with it, I take away 1/3 his bar on average. His attacks will take more, and if I'm lucky EA will be up again in time for me to drop his toggles and get a BU+ET in, or a TF at the least. These duels can be long, and EA is usually my margin of victory.
Tank-damage sucks, and melee toons will usually be able to survive your chain. These fights take time, and the energy drain is your big toggle-dropper. Choose your moment to strike, wait till ET+TF+BU are up if possible, then drop em and rock em.
Many melee toons out there are only tier-9 fighters...they'll pop their Unstoppable, Granite, Elude, w/e on you and then think they're going to win cause you can't hurt them much. Well, the defense-sets can be countered to some degree by FA+ BU, but there's not much you can do vs Unstoppable or Granite...I just wait Unstoppable out (tanks and brutes...neither can damage you too much, 1v1). Watch for their crash and own them. That's the problem with teh crash powers, IMO...eventually they're a death-sentence in solo and team pvp.
Don't try to out-tank a granite user. Ignore them instead. WHat are they going to do...chase you? Their damage sucks, their mobility blows, and taunt is counterable by assault and moving around. There's no reason to bother with them, so just ignore them. Many granite users are so desperate they resort to verbally taunting the zone, calling people runners, w/e. It's a fairly obvious ploy, and stems from their frustration about not being able to deal with much of anything except people silly enough to try to take them down in granite. It's like someone sitting in phase and calling everyone else a **ssy. Just ignore them and take their team down around them for the ultimate embarassment.
As with blasters, it's worth your time to avoid a scrappers peak-damage periods. When I see a BS scrapper hit BU, even though I know I can probably live through it, its more efficient to just move back some, make them kite in and out of my slow aura and suppression, try to waste some of it. No need to take someones uber attack-string to the face if avoiding it means you spend less time in hibernate and more time hitting back with your own damage. Especially if you're not returning damage of your own, hell with it, go mobile and pepper em with Ice blasts for -recharge/movement while ET/TF/KoB recharges...whatever works.
[*]vs High Acc melee toons: This gets it's own section...because builds with acc/dam hammis and focussed acc are so common, a mediocre-defense build like Ice is going to have some issues with these boys. Specificly Spines and Broadsword. Only option here is to try to put em down 1st...you'll be taking a lot of damage to your HP, so use it as best you can and hibernate often. You have a lot more than they do, but they'll do more damage. If they seem weak to slows, back up a bit if your about to die and have none of your "bail-out" powers up...let the slow aura make them work to close into melee range again. This is really the only reason I advocate spending the time and energy to get hammis and FA yourself. If no other toons had it either, you'd get by fine without it.
Ice epics can help you keep at range, and/or Aid-Self help quite a bit as well, in 1v1 situations. SR with FA is the most dangerous to you, since they will largely ignore your slows, keep up good damage, have Elude, usually aid-self, and will do good damage. A good BS/SR is a tough duel.
[*]vs. Blasters: Similar to high acc melee toons, getting the 1st strike is very helpfull. I don't recomend using BU on the charge, b/c they may very well fly out.
If you're going to TP Foe em in, hit Total Focus while the TP animation goes off and you're guaranteed a shot in before they take off, provided the accuracy roll succeeds. They may be 75ft away in mid-SJ when they get hit, but they'll usually fall and then you just SS in and do some more punching. I usually wait until they're stunned to hit BU...also, keep in mind, it's better, when you know they're not going anywhere, to open up with Bonemasher and maybe Barrage to whittle their HP down...I only use the big guns when I know they're going down. Why? Defiance. If I let a blaster get away, and it's a capable, high-mobility type, he'll be using defiance-enhanced damage to pound away at my [censored] for the rest of the duel, until one of us dies. ET and TF are more than enough to take out 1/2 blaster HP, so I usually try to save them for a 1-2 punch to put the blaster to bed and save myself the HP. The best ones will be highly mobile, as I've said, so be sure to move too, in only semi-predictable patterns. Keep a big gun attack ready to fire if they're at full hp, hope for a stun to keep em grounded. If they try to just jump around and pepper you from range, you have the defense and HP to live till you can hibernate, and they'll eventually try other methods of taking you down. I mainly take TP foe for blasters.
If you're NOT going to take TP Foe, pepper them with blasts and -recharge, immobs. Eventually they'll either land to take a stand or run accross the whole zone. Smart ones will realize they don't want to be anywhere in melee with you and will keep their distance.
Warning: Learn to watch for the animations. Aim is a yellow version of Build Up. Build Up looks like...build up. Either one is trouble, and some pop both at once. Stay mobile for that time, they're looking to get a hit in and detoggle you. Let them work for it. Even if they do, luck and keeping an eye on your toggles means this isn't too big a deal, but it definately helps to know your animations and know what's coming.
NOTE: Blasters are notorious for running around with 20 breakfrees to counter mezzing of all kinds. While this is not the worst thing in the world, it basicly means you won't be able to stun them too much, so you'll be fighting a highly mobile duel vs this AT.
[*]vs Controllers: High level ones are the pain. Fire/rad is bad for you. The debuffs to acc and damage are so powerfull you will likely be in a LOT of trouble without acc/dam hammis. You need to mez them, and, like blasters, they'll be carrying a crapload of BFs just in case. /storm and /ff will repel the hell out of you. Mind/son is capable of the same. Additionally, and worse, for us, is the fact that a lot of controllers have hammis and a rather ungodly ability to overstack mez protection. Hibernate is some use here, since it lets old holds wear off while the controller is unable to apply new ones. This is also the reason I bother with accrobatics, little extra insurance never hurts. The APPs do a lot of damage, and lead to the whole "blastroller" phenomenon in the late game. With acc/dams and FA, you should have enough acc to punch through debuffs. Hit em hard, hit em fast, then take a rest while they respawn and do it all over again. I only carry breakfrees vs these toons...I feel hammis and high level controllers are fairly broken, and since they're going to be using BFs anyway, might as well even the playing field.
Again, the Ice or Fire epics help a lot, being more "anti-caster" based. Controllers often have hard times over-stacking you if you stay mobile and pepper them with the -recharge blasts. Keep them on the defensive when possible.
TK: There's a fairly one-sided dynamic to users who take TK and slot the hell out of it...they can essentially repel you all over a whole map. TK is a fairly broken power, IMO, because it takes 4 BFs to counter the repel. No other effect in the game requires that many. Nonetheless, this isn't a huge deal in teams, as they'll be TKing someone else or wasting a TK on you and someone will come along and light them up while they try to over-stack you. In any case, when TKed, first, hit them with your immob. It has a shorter range and they'll shortly be pushing you out of it. Then hit hasten and blast away at them. Keep an eye on hold icons in your corner...if they over-stack you, it often takes 2 BFs to get out, so it's cheaper to wait till you see 3 holds up and then hit a BF for an extra layer of mez protection for 30s. Like I said, keep the -recharge on them as much as possible and wait for them to make a mistake like coming in close (for EAs drain if you're REALLy lucky). If you simply want to get rid of the holds, hit hibernate and wait for them to dissipate. THis can be double-sided...the controller will want to turn off TK to get it recharging and to save on End, but at the same time will be worried about you popping out and smacking them. Wait to see what they do before deciding if you want to stay in hibernate the whole time.
[*]vs Tanks: O.o! Why are you fighting our tanky brothers? :-D.
Let's assume they're niave and misguided, and have allied themselves with the wrong side. An Ice vs a Stone tank is an exercise in futility. It's always a draw. Anyone else you can take, some easier than others. Ice is the premier tank, with Stone behind it, in that it's more survivable but less of a factor in pvp, thanks to it's severe movement issues. Like I said above, just wait out Unstoppable and ignore them for awhile. End leach the crap out of attacking Fire tanks, that's their weakness.
[*]vs Brutes: "Tank-lite", I call em. They like that.
Anyways, be aware that, b/c they like to be in melee range, they'll often play right into your hand. I've fought brutes 3v1 before and won, while they were running Overload and other various tier 9s. How? Well...think about it, you should know by now. 1st, there's not a brute set out there with slow resistance. So, if they're in melee, trying to build fury, they're actually working against themselves. They'd be better off kiting me, but I'd still hibernate out on them before they could kill me. No win for them, but better than being in melee with me. Why? Well, in addition to CE, they were also all in range of EA all the time. That's right...I was mighty low on end from whaling on these guys, but they were right there to lend me their endurance when I needed. One was SS, with perma-rage running, so he hit rather a lot, but with no endurance, he had to save up his strikes of I'd detoggle him with end leach and BU+ET+TF him. Long story short, all of a brutes goals in melee combat play right into your strengths atm, so just go with it. Remember, however, you're better off riding hibernate for the full 30s and running out their Overload/Unstoppable/whatever timer than popping in and out trying to get damage. Just camp. If they call you cheap, just point out that you dont have an overload and they do, and ask them if they think that's fair. *shrugs*
Note that Brutes are supposedly suffering a bug on pvp fury generation. With our tempo-controlling and phase abilities...I don't see it being a huge issue when fixed, but it's worth keeping and eye on.
I have also not had the pleasure of dueling any elec brutes. I give them a nod as a possibly difficult foe, but it'll mainly be a challenge to outwait their Unstoppable-esque power while our -recharge, damage, and end drain are largely mitigated. This is the reason teamwork is a good thing.
[*]vs Stalkers: They're really not a threat to you. In teams, keep an eye out. I used to keep Taunt on the #1 button, and it was the first thing I hit when I saw one, then my attack string. If you're Taunt + FA, then I would still do that.
The defense sets will have a tier 9 with good defense, so keep BU ready too. I once turned off CE and all shields and took an AS straight to HP. With hoarfrost up, it took roughly 1/2 my hp, and even had no other option been available, the stun did not last long enough to prevent me from hibernating before he was able to take the other half.
Some tips for dealing with Stalkers:
--Use stacked perception from Tactics/FA and Glacial armor
--If you went Ice or Fire Epic, blast them with DoTs whenever you see one in hide. A lot of times they won't have activated their tier 9s yet and it will punch through and disrupt their Hide. Use the DoTs so they can't even begin to re-hide until the last tick of damage has gone off. This is, IMO, even more effective in teams than Taunt, because it reveals the stalkers to your teamates at the same time it nuetralizes a lot of their damage. Many, MANY stalkers will just run off if they've been revealed, which is perfect for you and your team.
--Use fences and know your powers. AS has a 4s animation, 2s of which is it interuptable by direct attack, and then it does a final LoS check before firing off. As with all melee attacks, as long as the target is in range when activated, range is irrelevant, the power will go off. However, with SS and Hurdle, (ideally CJ), you can often simply watch a stalker AS and hop a fence, turn a corner, w/e. If a Stalker is near you, remember to set yourself up with these natural counter-measures and to stay fleet-of-foot.
--BU+ET+TF are very usefull to punch through the defensive sets. Regen is actually the most resilient vs an Ice tank, and their biggest weakness is endurance. Once they pop IH, you might as well save your attacks for 1 min and go evasive.
--If you are going to take an AS to the chest, then just wait to pop Hoarfrost, if it's up. Use the heal to recoup some of the damage in addition go getting more HP to play with. Nothing annoys a stalker like getting you down to 1/4 and seeing it pop back up to ~2/3 and knowing you still have hibernate to pop if the poop hits the fan.
In general, they're just not an issue, 1v1. In teams, they still have their place and will get the kill on you more than any other villian class, as befits their role as a primary damage dealer. Just remember, YOUR job in teams is to disrupt their job, so keep that in mind.
[*]vs Other Villian ATs: Since brutes and Stalkers are the real pvp threats for you, I'm going to lump everyone else into this zone. Most Dominators and Corrupters are squishy enough for you to 2-3 shot em, and they don't make much of a duel. MMs with the repel field can be annoying. Bodyguard can make them time-consuming solo, and can end up being stalemates. Punchvoke and Taunt are being changed to affect pet AI, so look for that change as well. [/list]
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(this section is still a mess and under construction)
Team PvP Tactics for an Ice/EM tank: Your "role" in team pvp is now variable... a taunt-build should focus on Aggro Control----> Combat Support ----> Meatshield, while a non-taunt focussed tank should be= Combat Support ----> Aggro Control----> Meatshield.
Please note that these priorities have changed with the changes to taunt...I feel that punchvoke means your tank should be in there attacking and focussing on redirecting aggro that way, in addition to doing damage. Combat support also includes using slows/immobs/blasts from epics to help pick off people in small duels. They're a decent edge for victory and you should use them.
Remember, more than a "true" tank, Ice tanks are often forced into the role of Scranker in pvp, and we've had to adapt to the willy-nilly changes the Devs have forced on us. The bottom line is that the Devs keep really kicking aggro-control in the nuts for pvp. With the current tools available, in punch-voke, I feel a tank can do about as well as he's going to do for aggro control in pvp by simply attacking like normal.
Ice-Cubed also still racks up a respectable amount of kills in team duels. This is because EM is deadly in short range. When I end up, as often happens in team pvp, in a 2v1 situation where anot
Thanks for updating the guide. I found it recently and after testing an Ice build during the RV event I'm really thinking of rolling or re-rolling an Ice tanker.
It's sad that /ice is so lackluster in PvP. For the RV test I had ice/ice and it was pretty bad. I can see it being a great PvE build as long as you enjoy teaming with someone to do damage for you. But in pvp the /ice tricks seem resisted so often it's a terrible waste of powers that could be doing damage.
I already have a few SS builds so I'd like to avoid that. I have an EM Brute and Tank so I'd like to avoid that too. Yet I can't argue they are probably best if you want to PvP, which just adds to your game playing. It's a shame /ice isn't better.
If I break down and roll that Ice tanker I'll be back to check ths out again. Thanks again.
Glad ya liked it!
Ok, the most current of all updates is in my sig, and can also be found here.
An update to IT will be coming in the next month or so, a small one, so keep your eyes peeled for that, as well. The most recent version can usually be linked to in my sig or found in the Tanker Guide thread that is stickied in the Tanker Forum.
What I am saying is that /Fire has equal if not better survivability, since we all know that Defense is next to useless in PVP, and has a higher damage output by a good deal over time. For teams, since Fire is not required to stand still for about 30 seconds while healing and can continue to fight, a fire tanker is more mobile in an extended conflict, and better for his teammates.
Just because you say fire sucks doesn't make it so. If you actually do the math, Fire has better protection than /ice does, ESPECIALLY where energy damage and the like is involved in PVP.
As you may not know, PVP is about front loaded damage. Fire/EM tankers have the best front loaded damage potential of any Tanker, Period. One of those threads was about KB protection, and the other was yours with alot of people saying Fire is just fine. Please note that fire has the best protections available to any tanker for non S/L damage, outside of Granite Armor and Unstoppable.
Done with this. Gday.