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You can see where this is going. How much human neural tissue do I have to add to a rat before that rat becomes a human and deserves protection?
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An entire human brain, which happens to be larger than the rat.
I said very clearly that I supersized the rat.
Allright. How much of your brain do I have to replace with a rat's before you are no longer human?:P
Any part which deals with cognative thought.
The brain deals with a lot of things. In fact, it deals with every function of every system in the body. Replacing a part of my brain that tells my body to move my left forfinger with that of a rat, would not make me a different person...although it may cripple my finger.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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Any part which deals with cognative thought.
The brain deals with a lot of things. In fact, it deals with every function of every system in the body. Replacing a part of my brain that tells my body to move my left forfinger with that of a rat, would not make me a different person...although it may cripple my finger.
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*rolls eyes* Oh come on you people have to have better biological background than that.
MILLIONS of neurons involved in cognitative thought die every day. Loseing a few, or replaceing a few with rat cells, would have no to virtually no effect on you. It's an open question how many you WOULD have to replace before you started to notice effects. As a guess I would say 5-10%?
That really is the question here. How human do you have to be to be considered human?
Is this the "Pizza Slotting" thread?
>.>
<.<
>.>
How long does the OP have to bounce this thread before it's no longer a troll thread?
besides which, there's nothing in it regarding cyborgs, and it's not a game. NEXT.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
Wait, wait, we can make this into a roleplaying post. Everyone can answer in character.
For instance, my hero China Doll would say that it is our spirits or souls that make us human or animal (or alive, for that matter), not our brains.
On the other hand, my villain Dame Fatale would sit seductively on your lap, embrace you and purr into your ear, "You mean, you know how to give rats humanlike intelligence? Who else have you told about this?"
My personal opinion is that it is not morally correct to perform cruel/destructive experiments on animals in the first place, so morally it is a moot point.
On the other hand, if it is a legal 'grey area', I'd say that once the rat demonstrated intelligence superior to that of a chimp (which are currently legally ok to experiment on) it's no longer legally an animal.
Currently I beleive that legally, beings born human who score lower than chimps on IQ tests are still illegal to experiment on. In fact, many become drummers in rock bands! (rimshot)
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
OK I'll play that game.
Baroness Samedi makes no distinction between humans and animals as far as 'experimenting' is concerned... not to mention, she's engaged in some questionable behavior with a couple of anthros (specifically a carnivore minotauress) so the line for her is rather blurred. If it demonstrates sentient behavior, then it's fair game to play with/torture/etc. If it doesn't, she simply kills it.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
If it can dial up a lawyer for emanicipation, it's probably close enough to earn American citizenship and humanity for my takes. It's already picked up on the vital concept of lawsuits!
More RP-wise though. Overstrike would note that Crey and Arachnos experiment plenty to begin with on humans, so it really doesn't matter on the Isles. If you're in the situation where the issue comes up in the first place, as a human or uplifted intelligence, it must mean you weren't THAT smart anyway. She prefers working with mechanicals to biologicals anyway. No screams and they don't care about artificial morality systems.
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How long does the OP have to bounce this thread before it's no longer a troll thread?
besides which, there's nothing in it regarding cyborgs, and it's not a game. NEXT.
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ARRGH!!!! Dammit. It's a philosophical excersise NOT A TROLL!!!
It's called the cyborg game because the origonal incarnation of teh question involved replaceing human neurons with cybernetic neurons that preformed the same function, as opposed to building an entirly artificial mechanical brain.
AH! A scientific question! *Chuckles*
What classifies as human, or at least "Sapient?" Speaking as a biologist when it comes to animal experimentation one of the cardinal rules is NEVER to cause a subject undue pain. Now I know a lot of you probably will groan or disbelieve me on that, but it's true.
The REAL question for a scientist is "What is pain to <insert species name here>?" As research has moved on in many areas the definition of pain has been expanded to include not only physical pain but emotional. That concept was once regarded as the sole domain of humans, but the scientific community at large would disagree now.
In most modern labs both the physical and the emotional welfare of a test subject must be taken into account whenever performing an experiment. The definition for emotional well being has caused a lot of problems actually in that things we used as subjects, such as rats in fact, have proved to be much more intelligent than we originally gave them credit for. This intelligence can also be stimulated by play and "interesting" activities.
In my college "Lab-Rat" room, the animal keepers had to not only feed and clean the rodents, but also entertain them! This meant adding toys to cages and keeping them stimulated. Now lets ramp up the situation...
This same problem is found in primate research, and in many cases it can be argued that primates are VERY intelligent. The physical and emotional well being MUST be taken into account before even getting approved to do any primate research. This makes this type of research cost prohibitive in the extreme. Most labs won't even bother with it anymore...
But are the apes human? Are the rats for that manner?
That's a philosophical question. In terms of scientific ethics however, you treat those animals to best deal with their physical and emotional needs AS WE UNDERSTAND THEM.
That last bit is the key, as we understand them. As research continues we understand more and more every day not only about animals but ourselves. What we regarded as a simple human trait is now not our exclusive domain any more.
You can never make a rodent "Human" or a pirmate "Human." That type of definition comes down to genetics and differences in DNA. But defining inteligence and emotional states are totally different. The bar we draw as the OP outlines really does not exist, or at the very least, moves too often to be static and useful.
In regards to aliens comming and regarding humanity I think we need to ask better questions than those outlined in the original post. Besides, humanity has a nasty habit of treating those even with high intelligence as mere animals... Otherwise we never would have had slavery or acts of genocide. Intelligence means nothing when shaded through culture, religion, and a society's beliefs.
Aliens could respect all intelligence but detest mammals for some reason... would our intelligence save us? No. We're still mammals.
The other hard thing to adress is the idea of us being able to KNOW how an alien thinks. It evolved on a seperate world in totally different conditions. How would we even guess about how it thinks or what it's definition of intelligence is? Perhaps it finds dolphins are great but humans are little more than pests? We don't know... it's fun to speculate, because of that comes great stories, but trying to pass it off as science is faulty at best and junk science at the worst.
What makes a human a human? Their specific genetic code.
What makes intelligence? It depends upon your definition of intelligence.
Actualy, they believe rats do not have feelings. This is called "self awareness".
When something has "self awareness", it fears for it's life. The only animals to exibit this form of awareness is, dolfins, elefents, dogs, and humans. It's not a test of intellegence, it's a test of thought. Even retarded humans know they are alive and fight to live. And when a dolfin sees himself in a mirror, he knows that's him and not a different dolfin.
That's what draws the line.
Hurm... I'm going to have to find my textbook on scientific ethics because I think you may be wrong on that one. I'll double check to make sure though.
Oh, and you forgot about primates also being self aware. Granted only specific species, but it does apply.
You are debateing with a guy who mutiulated Einstein's most famous equation:P How credible can he be about scientific matters?
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MILLIONS of neurons involved in cognitative thought die every day.
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Says who?
You certainly don't grow millions of neurons each day and restore all of the connections. If millions died each days you'd be a vegetable before the week was half over.
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MILLIONS of neurons involved in cognitative thought die every day.
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Says who?
You certainly don't grow millions of neurons each day and restore all of the connections. If millions died each days you'd be a vegetable before the week was half over.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
They do.
Its a hard question to answer. There are some people I wouldnt care if they were to be experimented on. Animals are inherently innocent in my book. But a few species can commit acts of cruelty or malice. Regardless, I dont like animal testing. I know its pretty much needed to advance science and some tests arent cruel, and if the scientific community told me I could stop it all if I said so I would say keep going.
Anyways, there are humans who arent... human. If you know what I mean. People full of hate and who have no sympathy, with the willingness to hurt others for their gain. Monsters among men.
The question for me is who deserves it?
Also, for me humanity is determined by the kind of person you are.
So, who makes the bassis on what is right and what is cruel? That depends on what you think is fair and what is unfair. Do you mind if I insult your mother? Probebly... Would that make me less human if I called her something terrible? What if I said the same thing to someone elses mother, and he did not mind, am I evil yet?
Herr wants to comment...sorry folks.
"Vell, is it ethical? I DON'T FREAKINK CARE! I'm a livink flamethrower!! Ja, it's very good!"
WOLVES AND BEES 2012
Here let's play a game. It's called the cyborg game.(sorta)
Is it acceptable to experiment on...rats, for science?
If I make the rat really really big (Genetic engineering) is it still ok to experiment on it for science to save human lives?
Allright, now I replace...0.01% of the rat's neural tissue with human neural tissue. (This has been done recently for reallllz) Is that rat human? Is it ok to experiment on that rat to save human lives?
Ok, now I add a bit more....0.05%. FIVE TIMES! ...But still not enough to make it human.
You can see where this is going. How much human neural tissue do I have to add to a rat before that rat becomes a human and deserves protection?
Is there an IQ test I can give a particularly brillaint human-rat hybrid that will qualify it as 'intelligent'?
What happens when a human fails that test? Is it ok to experiment on them?
The world is not full of these pretty little lines. Some species of birds _ARE_ smarter than some particularly retarded species of humans. Elephants?
Ultimatly the 'line' that you cross is going to be drawn in a diffrent place by nearly everyone on the planet.
Now take a super intelligent alien race. Where do they draw the line? The same place we draw it? How CONVIENT! Or mabey they draw it at a level that no human can currently reach?
It would then be perfectly acceptale for said alien race to for instance...Wipe every human off the face of the planet because they needed the water in our oceans. Evil to us, evil to them?
Who's God and why does HE get to draw the line?