mauk2
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by Hatred666
I personally feel that the Tanker AT is very well balanced. My problem is the way Defense works in the game. Any AT that reaches the magic 45% defense value drops their chance of getting hit to 5%. When your chance to be hit is this low, lower resistance values and lower HP caps don't really make much difference. IMO, that's the "problem" with Tankers. When Brutes/Scrappers are able to reach this while also having better offensive values, it marginalizes what the Tank brings to the team.
I'd like to see the way Defense works. I think for Brutes/Scrappers, their Defense should be capped at 40%, so anything over that would make no difference in survivability. For all other AT's, 35%.
I feel this would bring Tankers back to their originally designed role, while putting other AT's survivability in line with their higher offensive capabilities.
Eeeerrgh....
See, this is why I resist nerf calls, because they are seductive.
Yes, this solution would instantly and completely affirm Tankers as the toughest AT.... But the price is severe.
Every Scrapper and Brute built to the softcap suddenly starts taking twice as much damage as they did before.
Every other toon in the game, built to the cap, suddenly starts taking triple the damage they did before. Lot's of softcapped defenders and blasters out there take it in the neck.
See, I play other stuff besides tanks....
Now, that said, if this DID go into play, it would certainly change the way builds are made, and would raise the value of resists, hitpoints, heals, and attack mitigation. It would kill much of the benefit of the Barrier, so you'd see a lot more Rebirth's, Clarions, etc.
So I can see a benefit.
But oh, the screaming....
No, this would, I fear, be ...painful. Please don't nerf call, it's rude.
Not to mention a little scary.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Doomguide
Small stuff:
Sleet - swap the Centriole for a Achilles -resist (unless the range is important to you?).
Hmmm. Yes, the range is important for me, I often find myself muttering about how close I am when I drop the patch. But...this is still a rippin' idea.... Thinking.
I was actually shopping F/C there, but sure.Quote:The slotting of 3 Aegis in your shields is as much for the +def(AoE) as anything?
Oh good grief, I forgot the damn Steadfast. (/em facepalm)Quote:If so might want to move some slots around to add (at least in the long run) both the Steadfast and Glad +3% def uniques ... which would push your AoE also up over the 32.5% defense.
Ok, fixed THAT right away.
Ok, that puts all types over 35, which I think should be plenty, one purple should more than softcap vs all types, so only untyped AOE would be worse.
Hmmmmm.....Quote:Love to see Screech in the build. In addition to being a mag 3 stun (and great place for an Absolute Amazement set) it has a the longest duration -resist debuff in set.
Well, I dunno, I just dislike stuns.
Revised build below:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Winters Maiden_I20_2: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Cold Domination
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Ice Shield -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 1: Shriek -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Scream -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Howl -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Acc/Dmg(5), JavVoll-Dam%(31), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(31), Posi-Dmg/Rng(36)
Level 6: Glacial Shield -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Aegis-Psi/Status(46)
Level 8: Frostwork -- Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(11), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 12: Arctic Fog -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), LkGmblr-Def(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Shout -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(17), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(34), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Benumb -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), LkGmblr-Rchg+(21), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(25), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(43)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(27), LkGmblr-Def(27)
Level 28: Sleet -- AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(A), AnWeak-DefDeb(29), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(29), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(39), Achilles-ResDeb%(48), AnWeak-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(33), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 38: Tactics -- GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(A), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45)
Level 41: Infrigidate -- LdyGrey-DefDeb/EndRdx(A), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(42), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg(42), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(42)
Level 44: Amplify -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A)
Level 47: Web Cocoon -- G'Wdw-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), G'Wdw-Acc/Rchg(48), G'Wdw-Hold/Rng(48)
Level 49: Vengeance -- RedFtn-Def/Rchg(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cryonic Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Total Radial Conversion
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(19)
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Quote:As a matter of fact, yes.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
So you think your FA Tanker build there is as resilient as an Invuln Tanker?
You see, I have both, fully incarnated, and with good builds, that I play frequently.
My Inv Tanker does not hesitate to herd the patrons in the STF, assuming I have a few buffs. If I don't, I'll eat some candy and do it anyway. Maybe I'll get stomped, maybe I won't. (Ghost Widow cheats.)
My Fire Tanker does not hesitate to herd the patrons in the STF, assuming I have a few buffs. If I don't, I'll eat some candy and do it anyway. Maybe I'll get stomped, maybe I won't. (Ghost Widow cheats.)
Both the Inv and the Fire have main-tanked every Incarnate Trial released so far, except the last two. (And I've run, and beaten, both of those on the fire, so far.)
The Fire is actually WAAY tougher on the Keyes than the Inv is. The Fire tank can also solo the sewers phase of the Tin Mage, which the Invuln tank can't even begin to do. 90 percent toxic resist is sweeeet, man.
In simple truth, the Fire tank is BETTER at tanking than the Invuln is. The only place I can think that the Inv is a better choice is against tower-buffed LR. And LR I just jet-pack kite on the fire, using taunt. Works fine unless he resists too many taunts.
I do not give a rats backside that the numbers on the inv are 'better' than the numbers on the fire tank.
Here's what I've been saying all along:
Defensively, the Fire Tank is GOOD ENOUGH.
Nothing in the content can stop or slow it down. And the Fire tank does roughly twice as much damage as the invuln tank.
And a ss/fire brute can be made JUST as survivable as the fire tank, and the brute will make even the fire tank's damage output look feeble.
Out of curiosity, what tanker builds do you even play? How can you not know this stuff? -
Okies, changes made. I also moved scorpion shield earlier, since epics unlock at 35 now.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Winters Maiden_I20_2: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Cold Domination
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Ice Shield -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 1: Shriek -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Scream -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Howl -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Acc/Dmg(5), JavVoll-Dam%(31), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(31), Posi-Dmg/Rng(36)
Level 6: Glacial Shield -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Aegis-Psi/Status(46)
Level 8: Frostwork -- Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(11), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 12: Arctic Fog -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), LkGmblr-Def(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Shout -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(17), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(34), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Benumb -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), LkGmblr-Rchg+(21), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(27), LkGmblr-Def(27)
Level 28: Sleet -- AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(A), AnWeak-DefDeb(29), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(29), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(39), HO:Centri(48), AnWeak-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(33), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 38: Tactics -- GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(A), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45)
Level 41: Infrigidate -- LdyGrey-DefDeb/EndRdx(A), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(42), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg(42), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(42)
Level 44: Amplify -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A)
Level 47: Web Cocoon -- G'Wdw-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), G'Wdw-Acc/Rchg(48), G'Wdw-Hold/Rng(48)
Level 49: Vengeance -- RedFtn-Def/Rchg(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cryonic Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Total Radial Conversion
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(19), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(43)
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Quote:Originally Posted by Hindenburg
yeah, the build looks great.
I'm not a fan of slotting sheilds, especially for larger team's where everyone reaches the res/def caps pretty quick, but yer sheilds will be da bomb on smaller teams.
I would slot HL a lil different tho..
Level 32: Heat Loss- (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
- (33) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge
- (33) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (39) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (50) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
Hmmmm.....
Yessir, I like it!
(Makes changes). TY for the input! -
Quote:(ahem)Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You clearly skipped over the dilemma I laid out in my prior post (Let's call it "FA rules the world") and I know you will dodge the question of mitigation reduction here as well.
You do this every time this debate comes up, which is about once a week.
You never answer the tough questions.
Observe:
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"Why yes, FA DOES rule the world."
The scary thing is, a good ss/fa brute makes that build look puny. Sad, but true. -
Quote:SS/FA gets talked up a lot, but that's because of the stupendous damage potential. Survival on those sorts of builds comes almost entirely from a high-end build. Until you get setted, you're looking mostly at healing flames and knockdown from your attacks.Originally Posted by TerraScorcher
Returning player looking for some advice
I have a SS/FA Brute that is 26, But I'm not sure I shouldnt have gone Tank instead of Brute. I just did the Sister Psyche TF last night and felt like I was more squishy than the Blasters and PBs! NOT GOOD.
Yes, a fire armor brute is much more survivable than a blaster, but the brute has a taunt aura. Until you get the thing mature, it's gonna faceplant a LOT. It's the price you pay for godlike performance at the top end.
The Super Stunners are brutal for everyone who lacks drain resistance, and are not much fun even then. 100 percent rez rate with a drain-nuke? Really, Dev's? Freakshow USED to be fun.Quote:The Super Stunners were making mincemeat out of me.
On a lowby team, a fire armor brute takes a beating. Paper-thin, un-setted defenses combined with massive damage and a taunt aura. Unless there's buffs, or a sturdier melee around to soak some aggro for you, you're gonna get pounded.Quote:I'm pretty sure a respec will solve some of my issues, but I also want to make sure I'm on the right track, perhaps a Tank would have been a better choice. It could also be that I was just playing stupid last night and I'm allowing it to color my opinion of my Char.
I have some questions.
For fire armor, the brute and tank are near-identically tough against fire damage, and the brute is quite close on most other damage types. The tanker has more hitpoints and some extra resists against all the other stuff.Quote:What are the real in game differences between Brutes and Tanks for survivability and damage?
Damage-wise, it's not close, the fire brute is far, far ahead.
Yes, although 50 percent fury is trivially easy to maintain once you get the toon mature. Heck, I find most high-cycle brute builds in severe conditions can hover right above 80 percent. I usually do damage comparison tinkering assuming 70 percent, it's a nice conservative number.Quote:What about damage between a Tank and a Brute with only half fury does the Brute still come out ahead?
Against fire, you lose hardly nothing. If you build for solid defense numbers, you lose very little on any brute. In buff-rich environments, the only difference is a tankers higher hitpoint cap. Damage-wise, the brute does about 50 percent higher damage than the tanker given equal levels of high buffage, and almost always does a lot more damage than a tanker does.Quote:How much survivability do I lose by going Brute vs Tank, how much damage do I gain?
You can build a brute to be tremendously durable, MUCH more durable than a Scrapper. (And well-built Scrappers aren't exactly delicate.) A tough brute can handle pretty much anything in the game.Quote:These are kind of fuzzy logic questions I know, but they do have a point, honest.
Here is where they start making some sense....
How much extra survivability can build into Brute if I build him right? Or is it more of a Scrapper thing, the best defense is a good offense?
Tankers can be made quite a bit more durable than a brute without buffs, but when the buffs start flyin', the brute closes the gap. A tanker can never, no matter how buffed, do more than 66 percent of a brutes damage, because their AT damage caps are lower than a Brutes.Quote:How much can I build into a tank or how much would I need to build into a tank? -
Quote:So, World of Walking learned not to screw players from COH, en?Originally Posted by Ultimus
My point with World of Warcraft was they learned this same lesson, and hence why they moved away from having a single class doing one thing to allowing a lot of different classes doing it. They also buffed everyone's HP's across the board so that no one gets one shot anymore and it takes multiple shots from even a raid boss to bring down a cloth wearer.
Took them long enough.
In general, though, i view your notions with extreme skepticism.
The superhero genre is very fluid, but the one thematic thing is, every toon is unique.
Your suggestions go against that core thematic, sorry.
Any improvements to tankers should make them MORE unique, not less. -
Quote:(sigh)Originally Posted by boppaholic
Great point. I believe it is at the right level. Perhaps a damage nerf to brutes is needed to even things out, or a slight damage boost (scale or cap) to tankers. I think a better aggro hold (taunt) buff should be in store too. If a brute does more damage with the same level of taunt, who gets the aggro? The brute. Defeats the purpose of the tank, which is tanking.
Please don't nerf call against other AT's. It's very rude.
More importantly, the thread is about Tanker Improvements, not Brute Nerfs.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Jibikao
I don't play Tanker....
Oh.... Well then.
Thank you for your valuable and well-grounded input. I'm sure your opinions will be granted the full weight they merit. -
Quote:??Originally Posted by Ultimus
Also one thing to think about in raising the MAX HP cap is that some Tanker sets cannot even cap the current cap without Frostwork. Since that buff is so rare I don't think having that would help much unless they added more +HP buffs to the game.
Even the rebirth +HP is only like a 7% increase... horrible.
I have frostwork on my Defender, and I use it constantly. Other people don't?
Any melee toon that's not wp, shield, stone, or invuln gets it, and I have enough recharge in it to easily maintain it on 3 toons.
Are colds that rare these days?
Although to be honest, I would deeeeeeply love it if Frostworks was made AOE. (swoon) -
Quote:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
My thoughts:
-"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction"
This endurance penalty is not needed and is only exacerbated by the global recharge enhancement, which is going to cause you to burn more endurance anyways. And, at 50%, aren't you essentially proposing that your attacks AND toggles (offensive or not) would burn twice as much endurance per activation but you will not be doing twice as much damage per activation?
ON TOP of the other penalties, only a sucker would make that trade.
No.
This is a global endurance reduction enhancement, similar to but weaker than Conserve Power. The idea is, your attacks are recharging more quickly, increasing your end burn. The end reduction is designed (perhaps poorly) to exactly offset that increase, raising the tankers DPE. IE, the toon behaves roughly the same End-wise in or out of Onslaught. The numbers may need tinkering to achieve that notion, but it seemed right to me.
Right, and this debuff would affect both, because it's an enhancement bonus. It's like removing 30 percents worth of the slotting in your powers. Yes, that number may need to be run through the Schedule for defense powers, but that's a simple conversion, assuming it's needed at all.Quote:-"It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty."
Resistance and Defense debuffs do not play well together and we usually don't consider Defense to be equal to the same value of Resistance. The 2%:1% ratio is the accepted conversion rate.
Hmmm. Ok, add in a 30 percent healing global enhancement reduction as well. That impacts heal, hit point bonuses, and regen in one fell swoop. Dull Pain and it's clones lose some awesome.Quote:Also, this affects some sets much more than others. I don't know how to begin to approach constructing a defensive penalty that is 'fair' to all defensive sets, but I'd suspect it would have to include penalties to HP and Regeneration values as well.
(shudder) I'll never suggest any such thing, although it might look kewl.Quote:My suggestions:
-Add a global buff to Knock Back/Up. It helps offset the damage buff somewhat, and makes the attacks it affects look more awesome.
See above.Quote:-Change the Defense/Resistance Penalty to something that's more 'fair' to all existing defensive sets.
That is exactly what happens, and is as it should be. If you want to avoid this, work like the dickens for perma-guarded and be fast on the button. The tanker doesn't get any better of a deal from this than a controller does who has holds that expire.Quote:My thoughts:
-What happens when your 'doubled aggro cap' drops back down when this click runs out? The (up to) 17 guys you suddenly can't hold the attention of turn their sights on your teammates?
I don't want to gamble on my team being able to drop 17-34 enemies in under 30 seconds.
I strongly feel that Tankers need a way to handle more aggro, to compete with heavy pet users and multi-spawn locking controllers. YMMV.Quote:My suggestions:
-Remove the aggro cap modification.
Guarded mode as presented gives Threat modifier 5 and +100 percent taunt duration enhancement mod. That should EASILY achieve this result.Quote:-Add a large radius, PBAoE Taunt upon activation of the power, potent enough to yank the aggro off of anything.
Hmmm.... Ok, add a 30 percent global heal enhancement buff. Done! I'd leave the other buffs the same, too. Since the caps don't move with Guarded, it's nice but not THAT nice.Quote:-Add a +HP/+Max HP component and lower the Def and Res buffs a bit to compensate.
The psi hole is very deliberately preserved, as is toxic weakness, etc. The damage penalty is to balance out the vast increase in threat and aggro generation, and the comprehensive, low level status effect protection.Quote:Just enough to help cover some holes in some defensive sets. For example, buffing the Def and Res of Invul will not help them against Psi enemies, but the power will penalize their damage output anyways.
Good thoughts here.
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Quote:/em facepalmOriginally Posted by boppaholic
I love intelligent arguments that are backed up by numbers, so I thank you for this. I have only the above portion quoted as there is a mistake with the tanker calculations. You forgot to include bruising (as you had included in your damage caps calculations). Factor in bruising for the tank and his damage is 240... practically the same as the scrapper.
Stoopid math....
Okies, the onslaught damage boost is now 20 percent.
Tank: 80 damage +100% slotting +20% Onslaught self-buff = 220%, for 176 damage. Bruising takes this to 211.
Brute: 75 damage +100% slotting +140% fury = 340% = 255 damage
Scrapper 112.5 damage +100% slotting = 200 percent = 225 damage * 1.07crit = 241 damage.
Indeed so. The DPE on a Tankers attacks is quite a lot worse than either a Brute or a Scrapper. Those two factors were meant to approach parity.Quote:The god-mode was in reference to the recharge and endurance bonus you also give (50% IIRC).
If 50 percent seems too much, make them 20 percent instead. Fixed at a stroke!
And yes, the 30 percent resist and defense global enhancement penalty stays the same. Onslaught is something to approach with caution. -
Quote:Hmmm.....Originally Posted by boppaholic
I think my biggest problem with this idea is that you're turning the tank into a god mode scrapper whenever you want.
A valid concern, sir! Let's examine some numbers to see if we can address this concern.
As we did in the prior thread, let us assume a Scrapper, Brute, and Tank are all using an attack that deals 100 damage. The tank's damage scalar of .8 will make that 80 damage, while the scrapper' scalar of 1.125 will make his damage 112.5, while the brutes damage scalar of .75 will make his damage 75.
At the old caps:
Tank: 80 x 400% = 320 damage that attack will do at the cap, 384 with Bruising.
Brute: 75 x 775% = 581 damage.
Scrapper: 112.5 x 500% = 563 damage that attack will do at the cap, 602 at a 7 percent crit rate.
At the proposed new caps:
Tank: 80 x 500% = 400 damage, 480 with bruising.
Brute: 581 damage.
Scrapper: 602 damage.
The Tanker is much MUCH better off, but is still not even in the same ballpark as either the brute or the scrapper. 80 percent of the damage output of a capped Scrapper is not bad performance at all. Yes, the Scrapper is less durable, but in order to achieve this level of damage, the Tanker has to heavily self-debuff their mitigation.
Seems fair.
Now, let's examine a 'middle of the road' case, not one against the edge of the envelope.
Assumptions: All attacks are slotted for 100 percent +damage, the brute sustains an average of 70 fury. (For a mature build, I find this to be readily achieveable.) The scrapper has an effective crit rate of 7 percent. The tanker can keep the proposed self-buff up permanently.
Tank: 80 damage +100% slotting +50% Onslaught self-buff = 250%, for 200 damage.
Brute: 75 damage +100% slotting +140% fury = 340% = 255 damage
Scrapper 112.5 damage +100% slotting = 200 percent = 225 damage * 1.07crit = 241 damage.
Yes, a perma-onslaught Tanker is quite a good damage dealer, although still well behind both a brute or a scrapper, and suffers a self-imposed mitigation debuff to attain that level of performance.
So....
Examining these numbers, this seems fair to me. No, I don't think this level of performance is equivalent to 'a God-mode Scrapper whenever you want'.
It's a healthy performance boost that, if a player wants to make a high-damage tanker and is willing to debuff themselves to achieve it, lets tankers do about 80 percent of Brute/Scrapper damage while adding a level of player interaction to that playstyle.
This seems about right to me.
The added flexibility of the 'Guarded' mode let's less-beastly Tanker builds (looking at damage-specced toons for example) also serve functionally well as 'Main Tanks'.
This addresses the 'redundant tanker' concerns as well, in two ways:
1) Damage, like buff/debuff, stacks linearly. more damage is always good damage.
2) Multiple Tanks can swap out between guarded and onslaught. This clearly allows multiple tanks to pick who is main tank and who is off tank. -
Quote:Easily addressed by giving the powers no animation, and requiring no animation time. Press button, you are now either Guarded in your fighting or in Onslaught mode.Originally Posted by boppaholic
Wouldn't clicky inherent powers just make tanks hate redraw more than they already do?
Hmmm. No, not really. Incarnate powers never address the caps. I specifically used the global enhancement mechanic to avoid disturbing inter-set balance. I strongly suspect Incarnate powers were designed the same way, for the same reason. It's like convergent evolution.Quote:I can understand it for dominators but I would prefer not cluttering up my attack trays more than I already have. Plus this suggestion feels a bit like accolade powers to me.
Similar goals in a similar environment lead to similar solutions.
But this would allow Tankers, with effort, to considerably expand their performance envelopes.
If you want a full-time high damage tanker, you build for global recharge and get Battle Mastery permanent: You then gain considerably more damage potential at the expense of a button-click every thirty-ish seconds and a hefty mitigation hit. (VERY hefty for toons near the caps.) The demands attention, which the Dev's have used as a design balance point for years. This seems fair to me.
If you want a max-defense tanker, you again work to get Battle Mastery permanent. (That's why I'd argue for the 90 second recharge, it's still up a good portion of the time even on non-recharge-heavy builds like a Granited Stone.)
Now, you have the security of knowing that you can out-draw anybody with a click of the Taunt button, you can occupy twice as many foes as before, and you have a lot more security in doing so, knowing that the fears/confuses/placates, etc, are not going to do nearly as much to you.
Oh, I forgot one boost that Guarded should add: plus 500 feet perception radius.
Again, you pay for this added troller-osity with a button click and a hefty reduction in your damage output. Even better, this demands attention, which is a balance point the Dev's have used for years. Seems fair.
A real nice feature of this notion is when you 'play against your strengths.' A super-heavy tanker build (like my beloved Inv/Ax) can mash on the onslaught button like mad in situations where my toughness isn't needed and add a lot more damage output to the team. Not Brute levels by any stretch, but a lot better than a tough-specced Tanker usually gets, as long as I remember to keep activating the magic button.
A high-damage tank build (like my equally beloved Fire/Fire builds), can play against type by mashing the Guarded button like a wired-up lab rat when the team is expecting me to play waaaay over my head. Thus I can fulfill the expected role of Main Tank even if my build was really aimed at mass agriculture.
I think it's flexible and potent, but balanced in that it requires the player to actively sit up and MAKE it work for them. No freebies here. The performance envelope is expanded only in the directions of more damage and more aggro control/status soaking, which are probably the most innocuous ways to boost the AT's performance in ways that are pleasing to the most people.
And if you don't like it, the button mashing is purely optional.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
For survivability, I think I'd like to have some kind of inherent block power for that ability to resist unresistible damage/boost survivability. The problem other MMOs have with their blocking, is that you can just hold it down as long as you want. I think something more in line with a max ten second up/ten second down toggle that locks out your attacks (but not pbaoe toggles) with an unmodifiable recharge could help.
Just to throw numbers out, activating it could give you something like 20% resistance, 10-15% defense, and 33-50% defense buffing buff (that buff that some versions of Power Boost offer that makes your defense abilities stronger). I assume the lessened damage on unresistible attacks could function the same way it does for pets; just cut it in half. I would say make it unsuppressible, but I understand that would ruin the mechanics for some iTrials like the Anti-Matter fight.
This would let less survivable sets have a means of holding out for a heal, or in the case of Super Reflex/Shield/Ice throwing their defense through the roof and beyond the iTrial soft cap level. Meanwhile, more survivable sets like Stone can use it less often and continue fighting, raising their DPS to approach what the lighter, faster armors can do.
It would also help lower level Tankers survive what sometimes winds up as damage they just aren't yet prepared for.
As for damage, I think what was said about Gauntlet is absolutely right. There's no intensive for being a tank. I would say keep the damage cap where it is, but offer a damage boost for each target aggroed (or in the case of multiple Tankers, each target attempted to be aggroed).
I like this idea, and have often pondered a way to make tanks more versatile.
How about this expansion upon that thinking:
Tankers gain a new inherent called "Battle Mastery". The reasoning is, Tankers are undeniably the AT most comfortable in a fight, and that familiarity with conflict lets them alter how they fight to match the situation they find themselves in.
Battle Mastery gives them two click powers, (they could unlock at level 20-ish, maybe?). One of these is called Onslaught, the other called Guarded. These two powers are mutually exclusive and share a recharge interval. Uptime/downtime ratios to be decided, but I'd vote for 30 seconds up, 90 second recharge, unslottable but affected by Incarnate and global recharge.
Clicking Onslaught raises the damage cap by 100 percent, adds a 50 percent global damage enhancement boost, a 50 percent global recharge enhancement, and 50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction. It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty. When required, the Tanker can attack with greatly improved strength by throwing caution to the winds. (Note, as global enhancement boosts, these are unaffected by ED.)
Clicking Guarded lowers the damage cap by 100 percent and lowers damage by a global 50 percent. It raises the Tankers Threat rating to 5, increases taunt durations by a global 100 percent, adds a global 50 percent enhancement to all defense and resist powers, doubles the Tankers aggro cap, and adds a mag 6 global status effect defense. When required, the Tanker can use their 'battle smarts' to overawe, out-maneuver, and confound the enemies advances.
Voila. Now Tankers have a unique play mechanic, are more active to play (if you choose to use the inherent), their damage is allowed to spike substantially when required, and they can readily 'mop up' a nasty team wipe in mid-event and hopefully save some people from defeat. If you don't like these notions, take the buttons off your tray and Tankers are unchanged from how they play right now. All design decisions and balance levels between sets are preserved: The psi hole, for example, will remain unaffected, so sets balanced around that vulnerability are not changed.
What do people thinks? Complicated, a bit, but it'd be a welcome addition to an AT that's a bit...stodgy.
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Quote:One of my (many, many, oh so many....) long term projects is to roll a shield/axe toon. The two sets have tremendous synergies, AOE and knockdown.Originally Posted by LightSide
Does Shield/ look best when paired with a weapon secondary? I'd think it would look strange to have a shield in one hand and nothing in the other, but maybe it looks ok?
I'm struggling with the notion of a ax/shield brute, but dang it, I like tanks.
A shield/ax will do more than decent damage, has tons of AOE, and shield looks the very best when you have a weapon. -
Quote:(shrug)Originally Posted by Grae Knight
I ran into this situation last night for the first time in the few years I have been playing my Tankers.
I got invited to a Apex TF and since there was a Tanker already on the team I was asked to switch. I was told there was no need to have 2 tankers. The rest of the team was a couple scrappers, blaster, corrupter and a Widow. I suppose I could have argued my case that my Tanker has Tier 4 in all incarnate slots, a complete IO build slotted for Max HP and Regen, etc. But did not see it as being worth it.
I should add that I respect the person forming the team and know they had no intentions of offending me or presuming my tanker could not hold his own with the other DPS characters. In the end I just switched to my Ill/Rad controller.
Does any of the other tanker players run into this when they join PuGs for TFs? If so, how do you handle it?
I call it City of Debuffs for a reason.
To be blunt, an Ill/Rad brings more to the team than any melee toon can. And it's solely due to the way buffs and debuffs stack ad-nauseum. (I won't even mention PA.) (Ooops.)
It's their world, we just play in it.
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(sigh)
56 views and nuttin'?
Okies, rollin this to villain for the patron and rolling as built.
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Quote:Pics, or it didn't happen.Originally Posted by DeathHarvester
With TW coming near I'm trying to figure out what to pair it with. For this toon I'm wanting to sitck with a theme type overall instead of what would work the best. Here's a little bit of info on the toon that I've got figured out so far
1)already have the costume
Oh, now dat's a GREAT NAME!Quote:2)going to use the rail road crossing sign as weapon
3)Name: Road Block
I'd point you at a brute, and most likely, to an Invuln brute with the special effects turned off, ESPECIALLY if you like the costume. An Invuln brute is plenty tough for almost anything, and gets that sweeeeet, sweet brute damage.Quote:What do you all think will work the best with everything in consideration. Overall a build that will do decent at the least, works with his weapon and name. What would the name seem to mean to you as a hero and/or vill to go best with a certain primary?
With the name Road Block, I'm thinking a tank would work the best for it's better survivablity, but if you think I could get a brute or scrapper to live up to the name and expectations then feel free to suggest something for those aswell.
(excuse the spelling and wording, just woke up and trying to get this posted before I have to take off, my fingers moves faster then my brain does this early in the morning)
Thanks for any and all thoughts and ideas! -
I posted about this toon a while back, and got some advice, but then got distracted by other projects.
However, I do want to have at least one solid buff/debuff toon in my stable, and I do enjoy playing this one even on plain IO's. So, here I am again, working on a defender build.
My main concerns are durability and effectiveness. I like being in the thick of things, so arctic fog stacks on the melee toons. This build can stack sleet, so I figure I'll just drop it on myself if things get hairy, assuming it's up. I'm capped to S/L/E and mid thirties on most other stuff, and have Veng for when it gets REALLY nasty.
I'm looking for a good toon for Apex/TM/BAF/Lam/UG-level content, here.
See what ya think, if I'm completely looking the wrong way on anything, etc.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Winters Maiden_I20: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Cold Domination
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Ice Shield -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 1: Shriek -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Scream -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(9), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Howl -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Acc/Dmg(5), JavVoll-Dam%(31), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(31), Posi-Dmg/Rng(36)
Level 6: Glacial Shield -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(23), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Aegis-Psi/Status(46)
Level 8: Frostwork -- Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(11), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(40)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 12: Arctic Fog -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), LkGmblr-Def(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Shout -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(17), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(34), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Benumb -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), LkGmblr-Rchg+(21), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(27), LkGmblr-Def(27)
Level 28: Sleet -- AnWeak-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(A), AnWeak-DefDeb(29), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(29), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(39), HO:Centri(48), AnWeak-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(33), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(33), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(39), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(50)
Level 35: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(50)
Level 38: Amplify -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A)
Level 41: Infrigidate -- LdyGrey-DefDeb/EndRdx(A), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(42), LdyGrey-DefDeb/Rchg(42), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(42)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Rchg+(45)
Level 47: Web Cocoon -- G'Wdw-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), G'Wdw-Acc/Rchg(48), G'Wdw-Hold/Rng(48)
Level 49: Vengeance -- RedFtn-Def/Rchg(A)
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Paragon
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cryonic Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Total Radial Conversion
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(19), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(43)
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Quote:Whew, boy was it ever. I quit the game for two years due to Jack's sweaty panic over tankers. Freakin' rooting Unyielding Stance, what a jack-hole move....Originally Posted by Curveball
So back when they did the Big Tanker Nerf that coincided with the Big Enhancement Nerf (all in the name of FUN!) playing a tanker was a miserable, miserable experience. Especially if you were Inv.
It's also revealing that this same time period was when brutes, with their gigantic performance envelope, were crafted.
The boosts to fiery aura, additional hit points, and Bruising, are all positive changes and very welcome. Thanks, Devs!Quote:But these days I think they're pretty good.
For one tanker at a time.Quote:It used to be I would FALL ASLEEP trying to bring down a lieutenant because it would take so freaking long to do, but that's not the case any more. Bruising was an awesome addition to the Tanker set, because it makes them single-target debuffers not just solo, but for the entire party.
Except....Quote:I mean we still don't do Brute or Scrapper damage, but that's OK by me. That's why there are Brutes and Scrappers.
As Claws' 'edge' model demonstrates clearly, in the continuum 'Tank-Brute-Scrap', there is not just overlap, there's complete and utter dominance by one AT, lackluster performance by another AT, and very poor performance indeed by the third.
As more and more people become Incarnates, this is only going to get worse.
On a 24 person trial, it's not craziness to expect a sonic and a kin to show up, and with all the other buffs flying about, that's about all it takes for people to be running at the edge of the envelope for the entire thing. (Looking at the UG. Oh, how I love the UG....)
Now are there larger issues? Absolutely. Stacking buffs and debuffs are SEVERELY broken. So badly broken the Dev's had to implement MARTy to keep the RMT'rs from crushing the game economy completely. (Well, sorta....)
Are there smaller issues? Absolutely. The 'heavy weapon' sets have been lagging for a while, and are getting to be non-competitive. Broadsword and ax in particular could use some tweaks.
However, none of that invalidates THIS discussion.
Wasn't someone compiling a list for an aggregate thread somewhere?
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Quote:Eeerrrgh....Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Not one to herd nerfs, but then would it make sense to up the aggro cap on brutes and scrappers in order to negatively affect their survivability?
Well, as Claws' "at the edge" model shows clearly, Scrappers are already by far the weakest of the three main meleer's under discussion. (Stalkers are getting some buffs, but they'd almost certainly remain even more delicate than scrappers.)
Brutes..... I dunno. But raising a scrappers aggro cap is a pure death sentence at the edge of the envelope, I fear. A brute might just soak up the extra fury and keep right on going. -
Quote:LOL!!!Originally Posted by StratoNexus
fixed
Ok, I can see that.
Still kinda sucks as a tanker, but MM's have their own problems. -
Leaving aside concept, MECHANICALLY, brutes are by far the best soloers. The reason is simple: Unlike every other AT, brutes are NOT damage gated at the low levels.
A level 1 brute can be buffed to 775 percent base damage just like a level 50 can. This is why TopDoc's CEBR guide works so well.
If you want a truly smooth and fast solo experience, try katana/willpower or claws/willpower on a brute. It's smmmoooth sailin'.