icaros

grin mephe ich was reading the sith thread last week and had decided to play one when i found your "firetanking"-sith build in there. so a friend of mine and me, both of us now have dark/elecs 36 with that build and its absolutely amazing. we duoed the manticore tf with av hopkins, duoed numina with the +2 av jurassik (so easy..). another fun acpect of him is that by playing fully offensively "offenderish" you end up supporting the team greatly and thereby defending - tho i must admit oftentimes i am the one leading the group and doing the alpha. (by now i have completely given up the concept of defenders "defending" their grp.)

we're now shelving our sith's for a lil while cause they are soo powerfull (greatly fun tho! fluffy for president!) and just started 2 invulnerability/fire tankers because we like the concept of taking even more a beating than with fire/* and still being able to aoe well enough. and all that with a hopefully slightly less tight build than good ol firetankers'.

as aoe is still the name of this game the inv/fire's should work well, but just as you i am a little afraid of the upcoming changes to melee

re acrobatics, as mephe writes:
+res(knockback, hold)
(mephe actually did suggest testing for urself if/when u need it. try and u'll know after short time, what u need it for)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe its possible to make an effective tanker that is more balanced, just like you said "people think fire/fire tanks are the most balanced in the game". Go ahead, show me a build for one

[/ QUOTE ]

the defensive build is very balanced, so no need to repost it. watch tanks with that build play and compare it to other builds. i constantly meet firetankers that simply don't have enough defense to really "tank" for the grp. checking their infos always explains the deaths very quickly. take mephe's build and u have a damn solid firetanker. proven tons of times.

mephe writes:
[ QUOTE ]
So is the above build the only way to make a fire/fire tank?
YES! You have no free will it’s all an illusion…. Whoops flashback from Sunday church. Of course you don’t have to use the above build; its very tank/defensive with just enough damage so you can solo any of your missions. But, it’s not a big damage dealer in a fast moving team until the late 40s. Its takes time to orient a group just right, fire off burn, and wait for them to stop smoking. Using FSC and combustion with fiery embrace and or buildup is much quicker when you have nova happy blasters.

[/ QUOTE ]

so feel free to make changes and adapt it to your playstyle. if you want more damage early off, go ahead and switch powers. just be aware that you will be playing a different kind of fire tanker than mephe is proposing here.

out of experience i can recommend mephe's build very much. the personal changes i have made for myself have been discussed and posted in this thread. it can solo very well and starts shining in groups with tough/weave. any less defense and i wouldn't have felt tankisch enough for my taste.

[ QUOTE ]
PS: This is my opinion, im a critic by nature, pls dont flame.

[/ QUOTE ]

if u want to avoid flames, try wording your "critique" more constructively plus read the thread better, all your points of critique were explained.

[ QUOTE ]
A minor correction: The recharge time on Dark Mastery/Dark Consumption is 6 minutes, not 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

minor ?!?

according to several who have taken it, it seems quite bad..

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...Number=3050172

quote out of that thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Just got Dark Consumption and was shocked to learn that it has twice the recharge time of the Scrapper version. This makes this power virtually worthless.

I mean, a 6 minute recharge on an endurance gain power? It has the same recharge as Blackstar! I mean, I can't even use it every 5rd or 6th fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

please comment

well, my lil ol firetanker got 50 now, thanks mephe for your guide - you made me start the character and helped me enjoy him all the way to 50. took me 230 hours by the way - wasn't in a hurry and often took some people along to get a piece of my xp cake.

the changes i made and which i would make again i already posted further up, basically being:

- plasma shield pre burn
- moved stamina down by one by taking boxing after acrobatics

gfs at 35 is an ok attack i use very often
incinerate at 38 is and stays a nice attack
- conserve power at 41 - OMG how can any firetanker do without?! finally get relaxed about endurance!
- fiery embrace at 44 - nice to have
- gfs at 47 - like it a lot. click it and the mob takes damage, no long wait. finally some decent upfront damage.
rotp at 49 - fun to have especially with 50 where dying doesnt matter anymore - it stil help you to feal "undefeated" :P

turning 40 was quite a change and i must admit at 42 i was very tempted to let my firetanker sit there forever. my problem was the abrupt lack of nice killing areas. rikti crash site is just no fun at all, even tho i did 2 lvls there mostly killing the DE (i did enjoy jumping right on them before they get up and burning right in their middle). shadow shard is no herding or fast killing area either. the good part about it is the mission supply. boyd or whatever his name is keeps giving u a stream of easy and fast cavemissions worth their xp which arent to hard to reach. flynn gives u a neverending stream of nemesis mishes, but the location is not easy to reach - so leave em cause they take too long.

i hardy did any of my 40+ mishes cause 40-45 is stuffed with av's, some of which i we just cant solo. maltas and carneis just were no fun for me, being used to fast killing and just jumping into the mobs without asking questions :P

the 45-50 mishes i wanted to keep for 50 and herding and am very happy i did.

oh and the ultimate fire tanker joke: i still have to chuckle when people call firetankers squishie and then see us in action with mephe's build. i got neverending streams of "wow"'s "awesome"'s and that kinda stuff. and its so much fun to be the last man standing when things go wrong and still save the whole situation. i had several friends that chose me as firetanker for their herding missions over inv tankers. i am not saying that to degrade inv tankers, which i appreciate a lot and will roll an inv/em next - just to boost the firetankers ego :P

here's a link to a GREAT xp gaining guide on this forum and here is another one on tanking techniques (worth it!), which also helped me early on.

have a great time with your firetanker! love him and feed him well :P

i actually went back to creys folly from 37-39, always herding like 30-70 freaks - mostly at the entrance to rikti crash site. there is a great little dumpster waiting for us right south of the gate. with mephe's defensive build we can do it very well popping 1 or 2 purples while herding em and an occasional green.

single grps of nemesis up on the catwalks takes way to long i found, especially waiting for the warhuls to go down. i'd rather kill another 20 yellow minions in that time. ive got to admit that i quite often just leave leftovers behind cause its not worth the time/effort to kill em. either i take em along for the next herd/pull or leave em behind.

eden is naturally not quite as good as tv or creys, but i think its nothing to complain about. got myself 3 levelups there and never really got unhappy with the map. the high number of bosses doesnt make it too bad if u just dont insist on killing them right away but let em follow u to the next group meaning they get whittled down slowly and will die at some point. i guess by now we should have the skills to position mobs well by breaking los and such.

btw, i find rikti crash site absolutely useless.. all those rikti meaning troublesome herding, 41s standing right next to 46s - not satisfying at all. i'd take it out of the level guide completely.

herding in the shadowshards isn't really fun either - or i still have to find the right tactics. problem is, its hard to find corners, walls or anything similar to a dumpster. and rularuu are trickier than the standard smashing/lethal mob.. apart from the fact that travelling isnt shadow shards greatest asset :/

oh right, i did want to state that i took conserve power at 41 instead of fiery embrace - and i LOVE it. finally i can spam my (few - lol) attacks without worrying about getting enough blue inspirations dropped. i find without conserve power i cannot use all my attacks whenever i need em, with conserve power i finally can use em to my desire. so for me it was 41 - conserve power and will be fiery embrace at 44. fraid i dropped rise of the phoenix, which was planned for 49 - pity, cause its usefull and fun, just the occasions are waaay to rare.

incredible how well we can powerlvl i must say. got a friends new lvl 1 firetanker to 23 in 6 hours if i remember correctly (bricks). founders falls worked well too, tho often enough the grps are a little bit too small there. pi works nicely 40-42, ruining all nemesis at the docks, so u are also working on the lowie's fn badge for the freedom phalanx accolade (+10% hp).

i am really enjoying the firetanker and having a great time levelling. he is so fast, that i think i'll be 50 before i really get much experience of playing in groups! i think the last time i checked i had 120 hours played at 40. and i really took my time i have to add, often powelvling someone (either with a bridge if i wasnt in hazard zones or just by taking a -9 defender or controller along who didnt really have to do much at all) or just doing something stupid but fun ingame :P

sdragon:
yes, it is good to take stamina at 22 and acrobatics at 24. i am 33 now with this build and was (and am) very happy to have taken stamina a little earlier than in the original build, meaning at 22. especially as i also moved plasma shield down to 16, so we already have 3 toggles running and endurance is an issue this early.

i found it important to have plasma shield in boomtown, without it you get stunned waaay to often.

getting acrobatics at 24 didn't hurt me at all, even though i wouldn't want to get it later.

boxing at 26, leading to tough at 28 and weave at 30 was a good decision too.

nuther little change i made was the slotting at 33 and 34, i am prioritizing weave a wee bit more than hasten.

and as to where to hunt, i'd like to add eden to the list

33-?? Eden. nearly as good as TV (after TV we all really are spoiled..) Nice spawns, nice geometry (dumpsters and such). Haven't met many other players there either.

and an addition to the creys entry:
herding freaks not too far away from the Rikti Crash Site entrance is great, dumpsters available (mob lvl37-39).

sidenote: a peacebringer friend of mine lvl37 with perma quantum flight (maxed flight speed + phaseshift) sk'd me and we are herding those lvl 37-39 freaks in creys atm. so i am sk'd up to 36, go collecting massive amounts of mobs with the pb following me, swallowing tons of inspirations. the pb just sticks and constantly gives me all his inspirations, especially purples. funny thing and great xp. it gives me a kick to have 50-80 yellow-purple freaks swarming all over me, following me, shooting me, hitting me and then sending them all to walhalla.

gotta gree with rhysem tho, creys is getting some traffic now (victory)

enjoy!

cool, got to 30 till now, in just one play session (17-30). this build is really very strong i must say, meaning defensive. just did the respec trial (grp lvl 30-33) and took hardly any damage at all (with tough and weave) even tho i was taunting, the invuln tanker and the other ice tanker were brinking death all the time (prolly badly skilled) !

really enjoyed the solo time in tv, killing sky was absolutely delicious. picked 3 routes altogether one from 23-25, one from 26-27 and the third 28-30 - levelled in no time at all. never got to 30 so fast.

teaming is a bit weird though, cause at least i always think that i could do much more xp solo :P

more good info - thx

stamina it will be tonight. i already now realize how badly i need it.. (lvl21 now)

the bind for turning on the toggles does work as long as you remember to hold a small pause between hitting the key. i have already ben using em since a few lvls and its a nice help, u dont even have to look which toggles u already turned on :P

gotta add my binds here :P

post fight bind, when i want all shields off with superjump on to look for next grp of mobs. its a nice bind, cause you just hit it once and you are ready for travel:

/bind X "powexec_toggle_on super jump$$powexec_toggle_off plasma shield$$powexec_toggle_off fire shield$$powexec_toggle_off blazing aura"

i'm thinking bout leaving plasma shield activated, because superjumping all over the place tends to let the mobs fire off a first attack, which mostly isnt very harmfull. but if this attack is a hold and plasma shield is off .. well, mostly i am far away enough to be safe, but you never know.. so just delete plasma shield.
--
pre-fight bind to turn on toggles without clicking all over the place. you just have to hit this key 4 times. gotta be little bit careful tho, cause u need to pause between each key-hit for like 0,2 seconds cause of activation time. on the other hand, because it uses powexec_toggle_on/off you cant accidentally turn em off again, so you are quite safe:

/bind X "powexec_toggle_on blazing aura$$powexec_toggle_on combat jumping$$powexec_toggle_on plasma shield$$powexec_toggle_on fire shield"

important also with last bind is, that coh works off the command line from back to front, so it will activate fire shield first, then plasma shield and so on. so just change order to fit your preferences.
--
hope you like them (tho i am sure u have much better one's simply cause you've played your tanker longer :P

naturally you have to replace the "X" with a key of your choice..

yay - mephe & alyssa - thanks for taking the time to answer. great help!

so my dilemma is solved:

i'll stick with fire/fire cause aoe is the name of the game. fire/em is most probably really fun too, but its goal is different. with this char i'll stick to killing much and that fast, meaning when solo i might help fill the psychiatric wards with bosses who have started feeling lonely without their minions and lts

as u have said, this game is basically fastest in the "player vs >4 mobs" mode, which seems a fire/fire speciality.

when i've had enough of this build i'll make an inv/em tanker, in my eyes a very nice *real* meatshield with only barrage, whirling hands, energy transfer and total focus from the secondary. this should be quite fun, especially after the fire/fire tankers very tight build - inv/em seems a lot more loose, leaving some space to play and do stupid stuff, not gimping your char *grin*

btw, i have made some minor changes to the defensive build in the teens up to lvl26 , please have a look at it, cause i find they do make a difference (my changes in orange:

Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Defense : Fiery Aura
Secondary Powers - Melee : Fiery Melee
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Blazing Aura /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Levels 3,3,5,5,7
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Scorch /Acc
Slot[03] Level 2 : Healing Flames /Rchg,Heal,Heal,Heal,Heal,Heal
Levels 13,13,15,15,17
Slot[04] Level 4 : Fire Shield /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Levels 7,9,9,11,11
Slot[05] Level 6 : Combat Jumping /DefBuf
Slot[06] Level 8 : Consume(T) /Acc,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Levels 23,42,43,45,45
Slot[07] Level 10 : Swift /Run
it feels like a waste at lvl10 to get boxing :P i didn't use boxing anyway yet, so swift gave me a better feeling in the tummy
Slot[08] Level 12 : Taunt /Taunt
ofcourse with selective use in groups, cause we cant really "tank" yet, but i must say very usefull already, blazing aura simply doesn't get it all. also usefull solo already.
Slot[09] Level 14 : Super Jump /Jump
Slot[10] Level 16 : Plasma Shield /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Levels 17,25,25,31,31
well, this looks like a less minor shift from originally 20 down to 16. i didn't feel like i had a choice to take it later, because especially outcast and clocks were already taking down my toggles every other fight. i only changed the order for slotting for the slot at 17, and exchanged it with the first conserve slot 17<->23.
Slot[11] Level 18 : Burn(T) /Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Levels 19,19,21,21,23
Slot[12] Level 20 : Health /Heal
well, stamina is coming up 2 levels earlier because boxing is moved down
Slot[13] Level 22 : Acrobatics /EndRdx
maybe switch this with stamina? dunno to be honest, i'll decide when i'm at the trainers to up to 22 and see how my end usage feels
Slot[14] Level 24 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Levels 25,25,27,27,31
well, yeah
Slot[15] Level 26 : Boxing / Acc
not gonna miss not getting a fun power now, i got stamina and burn + my defense starting to be good, so i'll surving no new *thrills* at his level
Slot[16] Level 28 : Tough /DamRes
Slot[17] Level 30 : Weave /DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Levels 34,34,36,36,36
Slot[18] Level 32 : Hasten /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Levels 33,33,33,34
Slot[19] Level 35 : Fire Sword Circle(T) /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Levels 37,37,37,39,39
Slot[20] Level 38 : Incinerate /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Levels 39,40,40,40,42
Slot[21] Level 41 : Fiery Embrace /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Levels 42,43,43,45,46
Slot[22] Level 44 : Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Levels 46,46,50
Slot[23] Level 47 : Combustion /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Levels 48,48,48,50,50
Slot[24] Level 49 : Rise Of The Phoenix /He

still thinking of a way to fit in conserve power from the epp's tho, but i'll think about it more when i'm >=35.

/em smiles happily, thinking this is a very helpfull and constructive guide and discussion

hm, another thread got me thinking again :/

i read about the single target damage powers of energy melee, being: energy transfer + total focus (both delicious single target damage!), whirling hands being the replacement for FSC.

thinking bout the post 35 game i and my experience with other characters it does feel good in your tummy when you know you can take those bosses down rather fast (or even just a sapper).

maybe the point for me here is:
if i want to take GFS i might as well reroll fire/em
if i'll stick to mephe's proposed combustion i'll concentrate more on fire's speciality - ae's.

i don't want to turn this into a "energy melee vs. fiery melee" thread - i'd just like some help to decide what fits me most.

my fire/fire tanker is already 14 and i am enjoying him a lot, but i'd be ready to throw the 14 lvls overboard to restart, cause both f/f end f/e would have the same identical build up to 35, where fire would take FSC and energy would take whirling hands.

all these choices :P

just found this in another thread from 16. feb. 05

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,

I just hit 50 yesterday with my fire/fire tank Violator X on Champion and here is my input. I had combustion (resp it out), FSC and Burn and I happened to notice that combustions long activation time just made it annoying to use in the cycle of attacks and unnecessary. It seemed that with hasten, by the time the power actually actually hit, burn was ready to go again. You could drop the even and +1-3 with a cycle of Burn, FE and FSC and burn. If there are higher level bosses in there you will want to be targeted on them and in that slight down time between burn and FSC, you can hit him with incinerate or GFS or both. Other wise i found that you will be standing there with burn and combustion for the end of the battle with the boss after all the minions and leut are dead. Also when fighting an AV, you want to constantly cycle through burn, GFS and Incinerate and occasionally drop a FSC in the down time.

Now you may ask "how the hell do you have the endo for all that?" The answer is Conserve power with the epic pool. 6 slot it!!! You dont need combustion, you dont need Rise of the Phoenix. Although I am level 50, I do have to train to my last power at 49 and my last slots at 50. It didnt really matter because it let me upgrade my enhancements upon level so I didnt feel the urgency to pick and would rather not wait on a 44 respec if I dont have to. I just couldnt decide between Build Up max output, Rise of the Phoenix for convenience and visual effect, or superspeed for convenience and partial stealth in missions. Looking for some advice on that.

Now mathematically, numbers may add up to X being more efficient than Y over time or per second. But in terms of the game play from a hunting, soloing, Kraken killing, wolf herding, and AV killing, once the minions drop you dont want to be there for an hour finishing off bosses and leut. You want to have some punch to kill things off and you want to be able to constantly cycle though all your attacks and have the endo to make it possible for the AVs and Monsters. If not for the long animation time on combustion, i may feel differently, but in the time that it took for it to launch, i found that i could hit the boss with a burn, GFS and an INC and launch burn again and have the boss drop with the rest of the minions.

Just my input. And Mephe, I really like your guides and used them to build my character when i wasnt sure how to start off or if i was on the fence with a decision, but I really do feel that conserve power is a no brainer since it works great with consume. It works like this, by the time your endo goes down to 25 percent, you hit consume to get to full. then you come back to the halfway mark and you can hit conserve power and your bar will climb while relentlessly launching your attacks. then by the time conserve power wears off the consume is recharged and so forth.

So i feel between blazing aura, burn and FSC, i have the aoe to get the job done quick on the mobs. With Burn, GFS and Incinerate and Conserve power I have the goods to take down the bosses and do my part with the AVs.

Looking forward to some responses and always looking to learn more.


[/ QUOTE ]

looks like i'll switch combustion for greater fire sword (gfs), too - it sounds very much like my own playstyle. prolly put it in at 43

and prolly put in conserve power, too - seems to be quite effective.

meaning the post 40 plan could be:

41 gfs
44 conserve power
47 fiery embrace
49 build up

but thats only my reading up and no experience really yet could the build work without combustion and with gfs for it instead?

cool!

yes, i most definately want to play as tanker, and not scrapper - so i appreciate your info's. and thanks for your special tips too.

reading your post i would conclude that taking boxing at 26 would make more sense than at lvl 10, like in the original mephe build. by doing this i get stamina and acrobatics at 22 and 24 (2 lvls earlier than in mephe's build). i'll probably want to take stamina at 22 (as you said, toggle-drop is not very life-supporting) even tho the knockdowns till then will strain my nerves..

apart from those changes in order, its exactly mephe's build.

great guide i am following it - just started a new fire/fire tanker and got him to lvl 10 in no time and its great fun!

question about your build:

why do you propose boxing at 10? you could move it to lvl 26 and therefore get stamina by 24 - or is there a drawback?

i don't feel i am missing an extra single target attack at 10 and would like to know if there is some special reason u put it at 10 and not at e.g. 26 (tough with 28 fits that perfectly).


that could then be:
lvl 10 taunt
lvl 12 swift (i think i'll go for hurdle :P)
lvl 14 ss
lvl 16 health
lvl 18 burn
lvl 20 plasma shield
lvl 22 acrobatics
lvl 24 stamina
lvl 26 boxing
lvl 28 tough
..and so on..

i am aware i have to be carefull with taunt at 10, cause we still are a little bit squishier than later on, but as i obviously am already doing some tanking for grps (even if its only duoing with a blaster and blazing aura lets some mobs get free and start smacking him) i think it would be more fun than boxing which i wont really use anyway.

thanks for your advice!

**concerning the illu/rad build**

i hope nobody takes your illu/rad build to make a char.. i can't imagine playing him that way - sorry to say. mine is 39 and he is a real blast to play. i can easily pl other people, so u can see the credibility of him soloing.

imo u need am, hasten and ef *before* 10 in order to have em slotted up at 18, when u get pa. if u don't, soloing will be very very time intensive and get boring fast. u need fast recharge on ur holds, ur sw and for sure on ur pets. and ef is ur bread and butter, majorly more so than ri.

ri can definately wait till after stamina, making it mid-twenties. it is usefull for full grps, but phantom army or phantasm decoys don't take any damage anyway - so better to take a power that helps ur soloing. great debuff, just not quite as early on as in ur build. i had zilch problems with pets missing the mobs, so no reason for ri so early on.

and lr after ri. just to get priorities right. lr is a nice thing, specially while soloing av's - but not worth getting it early and ruining ur general soloing abilities by leaving out important powers.

i'd leave deceive out of the build too. it might be a nice thing to have, but all skills up to lvl 38 are much more important and u wont use much (if at all) post 20.

another small thing, switch health for hurdle. u wont miss health at all but u will *luv* hurdle, so much better jumping! i'd recommend that to any char, cause u rn't going to slot health anyways and its effect is so minor compared to the better movement abilities from hurdle.

grp invis is a great thing, but i'd take it after ri - pre stamina u just can't spare many powers if u want to min/max ur controller - but thats a personal thing i guess.