hepheastus

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3 even level minions shouldn't be a threat or even a challenge to a vetran lv 40 hero... maybe YOU don't get it. or do you and the other fanboys expect me to belive that all the minons have been working out while my hero has been sitting on a couch eating bon-bons for 20 levels and not getting any stronger despite the hours I've put into him? and honestly I don't buy into that post 30 game is to easy crap anyways... I've never been able to solo anything above orange safely. I've been held and one shotted, and spent more time in debt than out of it. and my reward for this is being relegated to picking on blues.... geeze why bother.

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Your perception is the problem. Not the game. If you weren't so hung up on having to fight 40-50 enemies at a time, and instead realize that you could fight 3 and get the same benefit when you won, perhaps you could get around to lowering that blood pressure.

In the end, it's an MMORPG. Change is coming. Adapt or get out.

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BS and you know it. In the late game you won't find any groups of THREE EVEN LEVEL MINIONS. Once you hit 40 that means one of two zones to hunt in. Crey's folly or Pegrine Island. I challenge you to find a group anywhere near that size and that level. At level 40 when I do find a spawn I'd even attempt to solo there's a boss or even 2 bosses in the same group. and several lui's and you gotta be careful about taking down the lui's because of vengence.

Maybe your perception is what's flawed... or maybe you're not playing in the same places I am.

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Maybe that's part of the problem. If the sets were scaled back, you would have more available places to hunt, because you aren't looking 4-5 levels higher then you are anymore.



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You got it all wrong man. I won't go near anything even 2 levels higher than me. Not solo. I won't even try and take down more than 3 or 4 red minions.

I don't know what you think my expectations are...

But I NEVER claimed I should be able to solo +4 cons. You got the wrong guy.

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It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.

That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.

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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.

When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.

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Yeah... but should'nt we be different? What was the grind for States? On one hand it was about fun.... and the game has been and is fun. On the other hand it was about "becoming" About growing. I don't feel like I've grown a damn bit if at the end of my career 3 minions ( no matter what they are... they are low level shlubs)are able to take me down. And no matter what I do... how carefully I plan and tune my build.... 3 even level minions is the best I can do.... then really what's the point. If that's where we're going let me know now and I'll quit now. I'm saying this with zero animosity towards you and the devs. I just don't want to waste my time grinding to lvl 45 only to find out I'm as helpless as I was at level 20. Seriously I know you can do without my 15 bucks. And I wish you and your development team the best... I hope you have a long and successful run. But the changes you're proposing would turn this game into something else. Something I didn't sign on for.

This is my last statement on the subject. Feel free to e-mail me with your thoughts. I won't share them... you'll just be sparring me the fustration.

I'm not asking to be able to take down 20 even level cons... but 3 is the wrong balance.

And for the record... I like teaming. but I won't be forced into it.

Oh and one last thing... maybe you guys should stop calling this a super hero game. It'll save you the trouble of disillusioned players who know what the inside of a comic book looks like.

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3 even level minions shouldn't be a threat or even a challenge to a vetran lv 40 hero... maybe YOU don't get it.

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You keep thinking everyone who disagrees with you doesn't get it. It's real obvious that you, in fact, don't get it.

As to your "why bother" comment, I agree.

Don't.

[/ QUOTE ]I won't and neither will thousands of other players who'll find that CoH heroes are wimps in tights who have to be helped across the street by 6 sg mates. god forbid you get ambushed by 4 even con mobs.... they'll be rolling out the body bags and hearst for the mighty hero...

"Oh man... ultra dude just got his *** kicked by joey, petey, biff and ramone... 4 guys with batons." horribubble.

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3 even level minions shouldn't be a threat or even a challenge to a vetran lv 40 hero... maybe YOU don't get it. or do you and the other fanboys expect me to belive that all the minons have been working out while my hero has been sitting on a couch eating bon-bons for 20 levels and not getting any stronger despite the hours I've put into him? and honestly I don't buy into that post 30 game is to easy crap anyways... I've never been able to solo anything above orange safely. I've been held and one shotted, and spent more time in debt than out of it. and my reward for this is being relegated to picking on blues.... geeze why bother.

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Your perception is the problem. Not the game. If you weren't so hung up on having to fight 40-50 enemies at a time, and instead realize that you could fight 3 and get the same benefit when you won, perhaps you could get around to lowering that blood pressure.

In the end, it's an MMORPG. Change is coming. Adapt or get out.

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BS and you know it. In the late game you won't find any groups of THREE EVEN LEVEL MINIONS. Once you hit 40 that means one of two zones to hunt in. Crey's folly or Pegrine Island. I challenge you to find a group anywhere near that size and that level. At level 40 when I do find a spawn I'd even attempt to solo there's a boss or even 2 bosses in the same group. and several lui's and you gotta be careful about taking down the lui's because of vengence.

Maybe your perception is what's flawed... or maybe you're not playing in the same places I am.

for the record krunch my main ISN'T a tanker.
and for the record when you saw a trend you didn't care for you vocalized your objections.

I will do the same.

No matter how much you call it oversimplification.

As far as I'm concerned boosting minons to the point where three of them can gang tackle a so called "super" hero, to fix a late game balance issue is over simplification to the extreme.

but hey I guess the rest of us can [censored] and accept every thing that comes our way.... only you get to have objections right?

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They really ARE the very same minions. They are just dressed up in different clothing and have a few different powers. You might see them as very very different. But, many of us see them as just the same minion.


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True - you could put it that way (which of course, pretty much nullifies the diversity in every other MMP, but I digress), but then one could equally say, "they're the same - just more of them!"

Also - think of the technical ramifications. Let's say that 10 minions equal a hero at level 40. That means that we'd need to stock 80 minions in a single room on a mission when there's 8 heroes. 80 minions. Every room. The performance issues boggle the mind.

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how about less minions and more lui's so I don't feel like a gimped moron in funny underwear instead of a hero? And honestly I'm not looking for 1 hero = 10 minions. never said that. but three? come on.

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Have your much vaunted balance.... but please don't relegate me to getting my *** kicked by 3 minions at level 40.

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WHERE did he say this was going to happen? WHERE?

NOWHERE!

He said it was going to be a challenge. Callenge does NOT equal "me to getting my *** kicked". It's pretty obvious that YOU"RE the one who doesn't get it.

States would never say this, but please, go ahead and beat the Christmas rush and LEAVE. Don't blather on about how you're going to take your marbles and play GTA IV. DO IT!

They haven't put it on the test server. They haven't even coded it! And already you're running around like chicken little with his head cut off. "The sky is nerfing, the sky is nerfing!"

Use two hands and get a GIANT GRIP on yourself. For a guy who says he hasn't played other MMORPGs, you don't seem to have any problem with shouting about how things WILL be. I'm guessing you enjoy the game so far, otherwise why would you still be playing it, unless you LIKE paying for things you despise. If you do, that's not exactly a "resume builder".

So please, drop the Chalupa, step back, and let "life's rich tapestry" actually get a chance to run people off the road before you start interviewing "rules lawyers".

Geeze!

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3 even level minions shouldn't be a threat or even a challenge to a vetran lv 40 hero... maybe YOU don't get it. or do you and the other fanboys expect me to belive that all the minons have been working out while my hero has been sitting on a couch eating bon-bons for 20 levels and not getting any stronger despite the hours I've put into him? and honestly I don't buy into that post 30 game is to easy crap anyways... I've never been able to solo anything above orange safely. I've been held and one shotted, and spent more time in debt than out of it. and my reward for this is being relegated to picking on blues.... geeze why bother.

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The sun has long since settled over the horizon of Independence Port. The cold chill of the sea breeze raises goose bumps along the back of even the most hardened hero. Soon thugs of all shapes and sizes will be making the citizens of Paragon tremble in fear under the cover of the darkness.

From his perch high atop a loading crane, The Dark Avenger spots a group of Tsoo warriors go about their nightly rounds. This time a simple business man who refused to pay their protection money is being assaulted in an alley way.

"Look down there Birdboy." The Dark Avenger's steely voice alerts his sidekick to the activities below. "The Tsoo are pressing their advantage here in the port. Someone should put a stop to this."

"Right Dark Avenger!" The young sidekick prepares to jump into the foray after his mentor. "Lets set these guys straight."

"Whoa, whoa, whoa, there my young sidekick. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I count 2 Lieutenants sorcerers and 3 inkmen minions. Maybe we should call in the Justice Squad for some backup."

Birdboy's jaw drops as The Dark Avenger, Protector of Innocents, Keeper of Peace, Defender of Truth, pulls his Justice Squad Communicator from his utility belt.

"You can't be serious?" Asks the stunned sidekick.

"Dark Avenger calling on all Justice Squad members. We have a code yellow here. Requesting back-up"

Shriek! The Dark Avengers communicator shrieks as the calls from the rest of the Justice Squad filter in. Each hero seems to be held up with his own attempts at battling evil.

"Tauntman here. Got my hands full in Brickstown. I ran across 3 Crey scientists, this might take a while. At least there aren't any Mob Specialists with billy clubs. If I can get to your position I will."

Shriek!

"Dark Avenger? Wonder Chick here. I'm near your position, at the hospital actually. Ran across two Capo Muscles and a Consigliore. I didn't stand a chance. I'll be right there."

Shriek!

"Green Lightbulb here. I'll be right there. This mission is impossible anyway. There's a frickin BOSS in here, no way in hell I can handle that. Stupid contacts. Don't they know I can't handle anything more than 3 minions?"

Shriek!

"Hey DA, This is StormFire. I got Hawk Woman, Speedy Guy, and Martian Man with me. We got our hands full here in Dark Astoria. It'll be awhile till we can get there. Why do all of these mobs have a stinkin Totem in it? No way we can take these guys out."

etc, etc, you get the point.

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exactly.

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This post has degraded. If Statesman had come here saying they made the minions easier and gave more xp for it, then hepeastus and the others would complain about that.

Statesman can come here and say "Purple".

And everyones response would be :

"Yellow"
"Red"
"No Blue"
"I want Orange polka dots"

Anything to disagree, etc.

Were lucky he even reads these boards, most games Devs think they are above thier customers.

Keep up the work States.

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your presumptions are meaningless. 3 even level minions shouldn't be a challenge for a super hero. plain and simple. and Jack... a level 50 minion might be a challenge to a level 48 hero or 3 to a level 49.... but to a level 50 they should be meat. I'm sorry that's they way you guys designed the game and I guess I've just grown too used to it. It's your baby you go with it... but that's a ride I'm not going to take.

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Hopefully these changes will make a balanced team, including all the archetypes, the most efficient way to get experience because each archetype contributes someway to the group in a noticeable manner. In general, at the low end of the game, I have found groups to be a lot more entertaining than soloing. But it has also been nice to be able to create an alternate character and solo to get a feel for how the different power sets and archetypes work.

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yeahhhh... and those of us who play at odd hours of the night can always find a well balanced team.... with all the AT's. The game wasn't even designed for that. It was designed for interchangeability.

Blaster-scrapper
tanker-scrapper
tanker-controller
controller-defender
defender-controller.

Honestly I'll team with anyone as long as they aren't simps begging to be powerleveled. I'VE NEVER REFUSED A TEAM INVITE.

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I agree with Statesman, and I agree with Krunch.

And by the way, the enemies you fight at higher levels are not of the same calibur as the ones you fight in Atlas Park. They get stronger, not just in level, but in concept as well. You're arguing about the comic book feel and saying that three Hellions are just a strong as three Freakshow, for instance?

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Shouldn't we be getting stonger too? maybe they should just cut out minions at the upper levels. a 40 lvl minion to a 40 level hero should be no more threat than a 10th level minion to a 10th level hero. your logic is busted.

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If he "gets" it then they'll adjust XP reward to go along with that difficulty increase. If they don't then I know what this is REALLY about. $$$$$$$

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Have you seen my other posts. If we increase HP, we must increase XP - risk = reward.

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And you'll still miss the "feel"

Comon States... you KNOW how important it is that we FEEL like superheroes. it's why you're proposing the buff to tankers.

I just hit 40.... I didn't power level to it. I did the missions.. the task forces... I took fly and slotted it for speed even though the power leveling nay sayers said it sucked. I did It so I could take to the air like the guys I grew up idolizing.l I never played any other MMO. and I didn't buy this one so I could. I bought into it so I could be a super hero. If I can get throttled by 3 even level minions I'm not a superhero... hell I'm not even his boy sidekick.

Why can't you get this? want to slow the power levelers down? reduce the xp rewarded for minions and increase difficulty and XP reward for LT's and bosses.

Have your much vaunted balance.... but please don't relegate me to getting my *** kicked by 3 minions at level 40.

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I don't consider being reduced to struggling in a fight with three street thugs as a veteran superhero "lucky" want to decrease XP for minions? fine. buff them a bit? fine. cripple me by making it impossible for me to play.... definitely not lucky. Are they going to clip spawn size? in the high game you barely EVER see spawns that small. Check out PI... huge spaws usally accomanied by a boss or SEVERAL luis. with that kind of equation you'd HAVE to have teams of 3 or 4 to do anything in the post 39 game.

It's a bad damned idea.

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There's a whole boatload of assumptions you're making there. If you're going to assume that everything you have is going to occur, then, yes, that's not lucky. It also doesn't sound very fun to me.

I think you need to scale back on the hyperbole and take a look at what I said.

Now tell me: would you be unhappy if soloing three white-con minions was challenging, fun and profitable?

Those were my assumptions. We can't even debate if we're not going to be looking at the same situation.

Also, yes, I consider us lucky. This dev team is the most open, honest and downright human I've ever seen. Look at the changes Geko made to the super strength powers when Issue 2 went on Test. They changed things in ONE DAY. ONE DAY!

I've never seen a dev team that was willing to act on that kind of timetable.

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Whatever man. this game is already a grind. slow it some more and this conversation will be moot. everyone will go and play the umpity umph other MMO's due out this year and I'll log off for the last time on ANY Of em.... and go wait for freedom force 2. If I wanted to play any other MMO I would have bought everbore, or sims online. And as I said before the so called proposed "fix" to the late game won't mean jack. It'll just mean hanging around brickstown or creys folly for a few more levels, bullying blues and greens. You ask me..... there's nothing wrong with the late game. Why do I think this way? The Devs keep adding content at a lightning pace. 2 major updates in just a few months. That's awesome. That's what keeps people coming back. Not a neverending race to mediocre characters.

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Quality vs. quantity.

Some people want to have tougher fights with three whites.
Some people want to have tougher fights with twelve whites.

What's the difference? Why can't "minions" at level 30 be considered a challenge in groups of three? If they're appropriately scaled up with powers and, most importantly, XP, then it's really just a matter of preference.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about numbers as long as I'm having fun and levelling at a decent rate. Whether this is fighting an archvillain or even-con minions doesn't matter.

Perhaps the issue between the MMOG and comic viewpoints here is less divisive than it seems. Does anyone disagree that fighting a couple of +4 bosses solo is wrong?

Minions should be thwompable in droves once you get up there, but the lieutenants and bosses shouldn't. That's my issue.

That said, Statesman's commentary at least proves that they are aware of the issue, understand some of the root causes, and can see why people aren't happy.

Every MMOG should be so lucky.

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I don't consider being reduced to struggling in a fight with three street thugs as a veteran superhero "lucky" want to decrease XP for minions? fine. buff them a bit? fine. cripple me by making it impossible for me to play.... definitely not lucky. Are they going to clip spawn size? in the high game you barely EVER see spawns that small. Check out PI... huge spaws usally accomanied by a boss or SEVERAL luis. with that kind of equation you'd HAVE to have teams of 3 or 4 to do anything in the post 39 game.

It's a bad damned idea.

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The other MMO i played gave me a sense of power once i started leveling. If your still gonna be stuck killing the same 3 white minions at lvl 40 as u did when u started that's not going to be very heroic or feel much different then the beginning of the game where your a wimp.

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Exactamundo.

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The problem is that this isn't a comic. This is an MMOG based on the comic book genre.

Trivial content (no matter what you title it) is boring in the long term.

And you would enjoy Burning 3 minions (for the poster above) if those 3 minions presented a challenge (tough fight) and reward (XP) equivelant for that challenge.

Or did you just want to spend a year or so annhilating 50 minions at a clip at L50? Because these guys want to keep you in this game for a year or more if possible.

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Crap krunch. when I hit 50 I'm retiring my guy and re-rolling a new toonl. they don't need to slow me to a crawl to keep me interested. In fact it's having the opposite effect. Why bother going through the grind again only to find our I'm no more effective at 40 than I was at 20?

Waste of freaking time.

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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.

Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.

Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.

Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.

In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.

Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.


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Trying not to sound patronizing, but this is the first by Statesman that really confirms in my mind that he gets what an MMOG is supposed to revolve around.

It might sound simplistic, but 9/10ths of MMOG developers don't get this one simplistic idea.

And more to the point, they are heading their game in the right direction in the broad sense.

Kudos from someone who likes not wasting his time needlessly on a game while ...... errr ..... wasting his time needlessly on a game.



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He get's it?
Doubtful.
Someone certainly didn't get it.
release a game you consider unbalanced... then this late in it's development nerf the hell..... out of everything. No I don't think 3 even level minions should be a threat to ANY super hero. Did batman get beat down by 4 stooges? No he'd wipe the floor with any 10 of them while alternatively slapping the hell out of the joker. That's super heroic... not being billy clubbed to death by 3 security guards at LEVEL 40......

I could see several +1 or +2 minions being a threat. And guess what... none of this will really fix anything. I'd just go slaughter greens or blues en-masse and level up faster with less threat.

If he "gets" it then they'll adjust XP reward to go along with that difficulty increase. If they don't then I know what this is REALLY about. $$$$$$$.

Great news StatesDude. That will bring tankers back up to the level where you can actually find one for teaming. Excellent. Thanks.