hepheastus

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opening up the game for all builds..... okayyyyyy. Tell that to a contoller or defender who already catch hell soloing. Now that minion is going to be all the harder to drop. Controller PA/Fire Imps just got borked.... So solo for them just hit the garbage can. Unless they do it against blues... or greens....

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i dont understand. yes, they can do exactly what they do now. if they want to solo blues and greens, they can. they should get similar xp to what they get now hunting whites.

plus the added benefit of they actually will have some ability to contribute in a fight against white minions while teamed, where, currently, they are situationaly useful at best.

not sure i understand the issue/problem.

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that's the thing though. When I team... i do it so I can go after real threats. and then controllers are REALLY needed. am I talking about +4 mobs.... heck no. Purples are off my diet. I'm talking nemesis mobs in PI that have vengence, and fake nems... rikti with holds and stuns up the yay-hoo... arch villans... I already team for survival. The tanker that takes the one shot that would have killed me... love that guy... The controller who locked down that mentalist before he could lock me down.... that's my boy... the force field that lets me tank... love that bubble.... the scrapper getting in an arch villans face so I can snipe...classic.

I never needed to be force teamed. I don't need it now.

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The tanker pulls a car out of his butt and chucks it at the bad guy? Makes no sense to me. To have hurl worl porperly, the entire environment would have to be reworked so that it it's fully interactive.

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they open up wormholes.... things get sucked through em.... a tanker just picking up a forklift that isn't there makes no sense. what makes sense is the dev, slow altering the static nature of the game to allow for that sort of thing. Crates, cars, trees.... that you can interact with. Windows you can smash... walls that can be bashed through. That will be no mean task.
I don't understand why it makes no sense to you. Don't controllers pull a forklift outta thin air?

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guess they need harder taskforces... that can be done without the wimp bat. And since when is someone trying to protect their investment in gameplay=troll.... you insulting the legitimate concerns of dedicated players... that's trolling.

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it's just that i'm not sure where the wimp bat is coming from. If xp is scaled - no one's losing anything - except the ability to take down large groups of white minions. it looks to me like the same amount of effort/teamwork/time etc. will now be spent taking on 3, vs. 15 - and for the same xp.

heph - i'm not calling you a troll, that was more because i read the entire thread before i posted + i think there's quite a bit of it in here. I do disagree with your take on this being a nerf - to me it's more of an "either you like it or you don't" and your post was both recent + relevant. to me, it seems like it's making a change so that there's now other powers besides damage that are relevant to gaining xp. I play a couple different builds, some min/max and some more obscure. I look at what this proposed change does - and to me it makes some of my more obscure builds actually beneficial to a team. is it a perfect solution - probably not. but - it DOES allow for mass herding/huge group killing - but a level or two down with scaled xp. no huge loss. your concern that these mobs are no longer white doesn't seem that big a price to pay for the upside. it would be cool to have some of the powers that actually require a successful hit to work actually matter. to have holds that only work on minions able to be used because the minions arent already dead. stuff like that.

i dunno, seems like the biggest fear here is that suddenly people can't kill 30 white minions in one shot is a bad thing - to me that's kind of been the problem. is 3 the best number at 40+? probably not. and i'm sure that's just an average. I doubt my emp defender will be able to handle the same three minions that most blaster/scrapper builds would be challenged by. odds are there will still be uber AT's and non uber. as long as ALL have a role, and aren't forced to group, i think it's a win. if some builds have to underhunt for the same gameplay they once had, and aren't being penalized from an xp perspective, i don't see why this would be a bad thing.

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I've already said a dozen times I don't care if they scale up minion xp and difficulty.... I don't feel the need to take out 20/30 even con minions with one attack. I don't like the suggested scale, of 3 minions = 1 hero. that's my problem.

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That said, I truly did feel much more heroic being able to handle larger groups of even level minions as I leveled up. It's true that I will still have the ability to handle larger groups of lower leveled minions, this doesn't change, but I am not given massive incentive to do so. These minions will give me less and less experience the higher I get relative to them. Eventually, they will give no experience. From a role-play incentive, I'd be fine, but from a game-advancement perspective, this ability (to handle large groups of lower level villians) holds no value.

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i would imagine that tackling a large group of lower level minions would give roughly similar xp to a smaller group of even level minions, no? maybe a bit less? seems to make sense to me. Personally, i like this proposed change because, unless i'm reading it wrong, now, finally, i can get decent xp without having to engage giant groups. currently, that is really the only way to do it, and as a result, certain builds become far more suitable to do so. i don't want to see ANY class/build nerfed - but i do want to see other non-uber builds be able to contribute more to a group. this doesn't mean forced grouping, forced anything, but rather opening up the mainstream of the game to all builds. but that's just from my perspective - to me, the BEST thing about this game is the variety within AT's. It will, to me, be cool to group with four strangers and not see 3 targeting drones.

and like i said earlier - to me, taking down a huge group of mobs -1 is still pretty heroic - no?

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opening up the game for all builds..... okayyyyyy. Tell that to a contoller or defender who already catch hell soloing. Now that minion is going to be all the harder to drop. Controller PA/Fire Imps just got borked.... So solo for them just hit the garbage can. Unless they do it against blues... or greens....

And now that I think about it how does this "fix" anything. What's to stop me from abandoning PI for now.... going back to bricks and beating down blues and greens enmasse?

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time for a George Carlin quote!

"You hear these people all the time, 'My needs are being met' . . . you know what I tell them? 'Drop some of your needs!'"

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If you're going to quote the great one..... do it right.

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I think people need to relax a little about this. Its just a basic concept from the Statesman, not a cast-in-stone decree.
I do agree that Minions should require numbers when it comes to challenging high-level heroes, it just makes sense. But I do NOT beleive that it should require entire armies of peons to challenge heroes and make them feel 'super'. I'm sure waxing loads of Minions all at once makes one feel powerful, but to enforce that as a rule of thumb hurts those who have to chew through that same gang of Minions one by one.
For those with good AoEs or PBAoEs, large groups of blue or green Minions aren't an insurmounatable challenge, and mowing down such large groups can probably be done without much fuss. Similarly, some Tanker builds will leap into such throngs without the slightest concern for their own safety. For these examples, hordes of Minions work well. But for other ATs, attempting this can be disastrous. For these ATs even taking on small numbers of Minions can still make them feel super. Its all a matter of perspective.
Also bear in mind that balancing out mob composition and numbers in SJ is a LOT harder than balancing out Missions. In SJ you have take into account that there's going to be dozens of heroes running around at a vareity of levels in all directions at any one time. In Missions, you only have to worry about a maximum of 8 heroes at once, in a limited area, in a limited level spread. There are a lot fewer variables in Missions than in SJ, but this still doesn't make balancing out challenges easy.
For Missions, the idea of the orange to red Boss ordering his gang of green and blue minions into battle, lead by the white to yellow Leiutenants is appealing in a comic book sense. But this gets tricky to set up when dealing with groups. If everyone isn't the same level, those green and blue minions can either become complete niusances (where one probably feels very super), or deadly threats (where one might feel less super).
Its a difficult thing for the Devs to balance issues like this, because we players are contantly throwing in variable after variable after variable (largely just by being involved in the game).
Again, its a little early to start panicing about this. Give the Devs a chance to work on it first.

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That would be the mature, logical course... Just got one problem with it. It takes damn near two million xp for me to level now... Do I keep playing and have the dev's yank the rug from under me?

Maybe the Dev's shouldn't leak upcoming changes like this until they have concrete plans set, explanations for the changes, and mitagating adjustments to AT's and powers planned with an apparatus for implementing and more importantly testing these changes....

Is that too much to ask for?

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it's not a nerf, you are getting the same xp.

maybe you don't like it, fine. but nothings getting nerfed.

to the 20 or 30 people out of thousands upon thousands that are going to quit because they have this ingrained feeling that if something is white they should be able to kill 100 of them - i don't think the developers really care, because i don't think the intent was to play the game that way.

if the rush comes from killing 20+ mobs go kill blues - scaled xp means its the same damn thing.

but for a lot of support AT's, non-min/max builds and people that (eek) like to group, to me, i don't see the problem.

i don't see ANYWHERE where the color coding scheme is supposed to only be relevant for the first 25 levels.

if, at level 39, you think taking on a group of 15 blue level 38 minions is unsuperhero-like, i guess i don't see it your way.

to me, what statesman is talking about (and yes, changes will be made to certain powers to offset the negatives of this i am sure) is going to extend the life of this game.

maybe not for a very small percentage of the trolls here, but no great loss.

i was disappointed the other night to do a TF with (i think) 6 blasters and a scrapper and found it was easier than any i've ever done. being able to run up to a group and with buildup, fireball and firebreath drop every white minion i didn't miss is not a game that will last. some changes NEED to be made, and the developers are not only showing they want to make the game better, they're actually explaining their thought process ahead of time. This is unheard of, and you people still cry and troll.

/boggle

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guess they need harder taskforces... that can be done without the wimp bat. And since when is someone trying to protect their investment in gameplay=troll.... you insulting the legitimate concerns of dedicated players... that's trolling.

You're missing one thing kukido...

Gotham city isn't Apokalypse.......

And chances are you won't find the jokers minions hanging out with ParaDemons.

If this is the Aim..... then the late game shouldn't have villan groups that you faced in your twenties. There should be no freaks or Nazi's in bricks or creys folly. and there should be enemy groups that appear in the 40's that you don't see anywhere else. That means cleaning the low level Nems out of PI.

Not going to happen. And seriously I think the batman could wipe the floor with 7 or 8 parademons.

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Prehapse an issue we're having is with the stratification of some villian orgs to specific level ranges.

I agree that it makes no sense that a guy in a labcoat would spike a 20-ish lvl hero into the dirt with a swing of his pasty fist. The same goes for the riot-gear troops. These guys seem to be a perfect opportunity for lower level Crey content.

Are all Tsoo crazy ninja-tong-baddasses from the time they get their acceptence letter into the group? Where's the hopefuls, the washed-out sorcerers? Again lowlevel content ops here...

Trickle down the upper tier baddies logically. The same goes for lower tier groups, save they need to be trickled up.

Imagine the Maltas and the Clocks going at it over an idiological war to prove who was the superior tech. (granted I'm not high enough to see maltas so i'm assuming they are some type of AI)

I find it hard to believe that the CoT are all tapped out by lvl 30(ish?). C'mon these guys have an entire necropolis under the city somewhere... with all the badness there we should see some Things That Should Not Be running amok later at their mechanations.

In this schenario you would remove this view of minions and whatnot. You've already seen the Crey minions when you were lvl 5-10. They tried to smack you down with riotgear and teargass. Now in your 40's you are seeing their hardsuited special forces using D-shift packs to blink about while ZOT!-ing you with particle weaponry.

Heros start out as weenies... why don't all (most, whatever)villans?

Heros never stop their climb... why don't villans?

It's these "illogical" and arbitrary jumps in power that makes my mind grind it's gears.

Just a thought...

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I don't have a problem with minions getting tougher.... or missions getting tougher... or whatever.

It's the 3 minions =1 hero equation that chaps my ***. wanna add a challenge? pepper more Lt's in. A lui and some minions would make the battle a challenge.....

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If you are going to have 3 even con = 1 hero, you really need to rethink some powers. For example, my 31 DM/Reg scrapper likes Soul Drain. Sould drain works better with more people around. Hitting only 3 minions, the benefit is hardly noticable. Yes, you do 30% more dmg, but it still takes the same number of hits to drop a minion. You just have more overkill. Now hitting 8-10 or more, you can start 1 shotting stuff. THAT makes you feel super.

If 3 = 1 hero, I want to be able to one-shot them (w/ the main attacks) with a soul drain hitting all 3. I guess you would just call it build up and remove the uniquness of DM in that respect.

Also, lowering the mob size hurts AE focused powersets like Fire blaster and Spines. Their powers are not all that well designed to only fight 3 guys. This shows that you didn't plan to have 3-to-1 from the beginning, or these sets would not exist.

I really don't want to see this change. Fine, up villian difficulty. But let me feel super and fight 3 even lvls at lvl 10, 5-8 at 20, and 10+ at 30. Being mobbed by lots of minions is fun, IMO. Fighting 2-3 is not that fun, even if they are individually more challenging.

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Personally I'm fine if they no longer want me to be able to alpha strike 20 minions into campbells soup. But that 3 mins= 1 hero is too much of a nerf.

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It's not everyone's view of building a character. If level 40 minions were just upgraded hellions you may be right, but they aren't. They have more resistances, more abilities and are much tougher then a hellion if it was level 40. As I leveled up I expect that which was hard to be easier. Hey, I couldn't defeat rikti two levels ago, but I can now! That's progress. Color is used to determine the challenge relative to your level, not your progress as a hero.

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Bs.... the late game is filled with minions that are just everyday people. Would batman get his *** kicked by 4 scientest? or 4 riot guards with night sticks?..... Here's the other problem. 5th coloum nazi's.... they exisist in the early game, they exist in the late game. So a level 38 nazi minion IS just a boosted up level 10 minion. allowing 3 of them to almost best an equal con hero can only mean one thing. The hero gained more powers, hit points, and slots but did not become quantitatively better as he progressed in level. Taking into account the high number of XP needed to level post 30, it means you've worked twice as hard to stay in the same place.

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Krunch is right, we are too sensitive Speedball, got one of those in SG. Best excuse I can think of for open PvP. Really.

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I'm not sensitive.... I'm passionate because I love this game. I've got 4 months of nonstop play in it and I've just been told that 4 chicks in clown outfits and funny electric rings are soon going to out class me on the best day of my life.

And to think... I named my toon after a fire god. should have called him the bic-lighter....

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Well if you'd have been clear about which everyone. That one is completely your fault. Quote tighter dammit. And I said whined not complained you had the post in front of you and couldn't get it right, so I wouldn't be talking about anyone's memory bub. And your sure you never said one bad thing about front loaded missions? You complain a lot and I don't have the ablity to datamine back to registration date.

**edit** and 3 equal con morons is what? 35 of you? 40?

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knock yourself out pal... I've never posted a single damn thing about frontloading. and as far as I'm concerned you were a little do anxious to flame me. no prob i have that effect on people. I think states prolly wants me banned for that $$$$ statement. maybe you should have asked me for clairfication before you began making with the insults.

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Yeah, I'm with you there. It's hard to see a minion as anything but a minion, despire whatever fancy wrapper it's wearing, when they all have the same HP,, worth the same EXP, come in the same arrangements, etc. All of this makes it hard to accept as credible that Nemesis soldiers function on par with Rikti Infantry, who are equal to Malta troopers, who are the same as Carnie entertainers.

It's hard to believe someone the game says it hypnotizing and pickpocketing pedestrians in Peregrine Island is at the same power level as Dimension hopping world invaders who slaughtered most of the world's heroes.

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which comes down to this...

I'm a trained fire/fire blaster... Gifted by scientific experimentation the power of fire. Bullets can't kill me. I can fly like a bird and run at 85 mph.... I've faced down freaks, rikti, and nazi super soldiers... I've battled reanimated killing machines culled from the cells of former heroes.... I've battled demons, and cyborgs and been beaten to a pulp more times than I can count.... I've followed the story line, been faithful to my super team and my concept... carefully choosing my powers..... enjoying every minute of it.... just so I can be pummeled to death by three guys with taser guns and web grenades... when I should be reaching the pinnacle.

Anti-climatic isn't it?

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At the same level? No I'm with you. Rikti should have better drops, or more exp. But hasnt' the generic nature of some of the attacks, defenses, exp, and HP been a issue the whole time. The way it works now a 33 minion is a 33 minion, changing that to the (what was the D&D model 8 point die?) 5hd mob with a range of powers, attacks, and exp is probably not an easy task at this point.

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Well right now that isn't the case... maybe that's in the planning stage.... but so far all I've heard is 3 white minons = 1 hero. that includes all minions. In other words some circus clown with a bucket on his head is as much of a threat to me as a para military specialist trained to take down meta humans.... dosen't fit.

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Wow what happened to some of our posters, some of my fav posters are just turning into ignorant biggots wow.

Shame. All I see is "statesman your dumb cause you didnt listen to me" wow pitiful. Bunch of Londons on these boards.

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Biggots? Strong word... and since when is whining to the devs anything new?

It's a tried and true tradition.

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If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.

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Very good point. If Rikti minion is somehow supposed to be tougher than a Crey minion (which in comic books they would be) there needs to be some way of idnetifying that, and having a reward concurrent with that risk. As it is now all minions are treated the same.

Is a Crey scientist whose main attack is Brawl supposed to be as deadly as a Rikti Soldier with an energy cannon? Should we really swallow the fact that the reward for defeating each should be the same?

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or that even 10 of those pencil knecked geeks could take down a super hero... it's ridiculous.

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"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

define everyone..

frankly i didn't give a damn one way or the other"

Lets see I said "your giving everyone on that list to much credit" refering to the list that was quoted. Mater of fact I don't recall invokeing or bringing in opinions about anyone outside the list or impling you gave a damn. So yes your post is completly out of the blue and makes no sense. Must be hard when your reading comprehension isn't that great.

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Its not about power its about role. Unfortantly, because this is a video game the "role" of the villian is has to indicate the powerlevel, and it ruins the flavor. But all these characters are definatlly minions. They used to try to show this with front loaded missions with weak bosses, but EVERYONE whined.

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Oh I'm sorry.... did someone else type the word EVERYONE in your statement?

wow how could I miss that

Must be hard when your memory is so selective you can't figure out what you posted just a few lines ago...

Thanks for the laff man.

Let me spell it out for you... EVERYONE COMPLAINED. your words not mine.... emcompasses me. I thought front loading bosses was neither here nor there. Looks like you "front loaded" my post took it as an insult and decided to flame me.

keep practicing son... one day you might be able to take on 3 even level morons in a verbal debate.

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Your giving everyone on that list to much credit based on power level not role.

Leader is an ArchVillian Abomination is his minion, thats what minion means. Basically a low rent petty thug, who can become major villian, but still a minion.

Rhino is not smart enough to be anything but a minion in for the money, used to be Hulk class minion as strong as Abominatino

. Wrecker maybe a LT because of the wrecking crew, but those idiots are minions

Each of the Asguardian normals would con red to a 50 in this game

Gladator MIGHT be a boss, but mostly is a bootlicker to the throne so minion or LT cause he organizes the minions under him.

Mammoth is a big dumb jewel thief who goes 15 rounds with clark kent every now and then.

Its not about power its about role. Unfortantly, because this is a video game the "role" of the villian is has to indicate the powerlevel, and it ruins the flavor. But all these characters are definatlly minions. They used to try to show this with front loaded missions with weak bosses, but everyone whined.

[/ QUOTE ]define everyone..

frankly i didn't give a damn one way or the other.

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ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.

currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.

ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.

you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?

so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.

methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.

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no that's not it. And if i try and explain it to you I know you'll feign ignorance.... but oh we'll he're goes.

This is supposed to be a super hero game. that's what it's billed as. Only fledgling characters would get beaten down by 3 minions. Now if you want to buy into state's vision you go for it.... but hear me out. The hand are some of the deadliest minion in marvel comics. If they'd faced daredevil early in his career they would have forced those fancy brass knuckles down his throat post haste. After fighting those guys for years he improved to the point where he could wipe the floor with them. Because he was experienced fighting them. I could see getting my *** handed to me by 3 +1 minions.... but a super hero should be able to whack 10 minions of equal level silly.

That is my perception... I'd be willing to shave 2 off that to 6... but three? If that "feels" super to you more power to you. Dosen't feel super to me. If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.

Make such distinctions, balance xp based on that and I'll eat that soup with the crackers. Leave as it is now and tell me that 4 guys in funny hats holding muskets can send me to the hospital.... and I'm expected to "feel super?"

Not buying it.
Or more importantly,... not paying for it. I'm average every day of my life, it's free.

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I just caught another post of Statesman's. Apparently, the experiment of spawn size in Peregrine Island is coming to a close, with an intent to reduce the size and number of spawns there. I concede this would go a ways towards improving the believeability of the capacity inherent to his vision of the 40+ terrestrial origin minion.

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Yeah... they'd be believable if there weren't so damned many of them.

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Someone gave a fine example by using Batman. That's what I imagine me as a hero!

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I wonder how well Batman would hold up to some of the stuff in Paragon City.

[/ QUOTE ] Apparently batman would be body bagged by 4 minions.

And he'd need the entire Justice league to take down killer crock and the penguin. No wait scratch that. those guys typically use large numbers of minions and Lt's. They might be able to do it.... but they'd have to have the JSA on standby.

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Someone gave a fine example by using Batman. That's what I imagine me as a hero!

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I wonder how well Batman would hold up to some of the stuff in Paragon City.

[/ QUOTE ] Apparently batman would be body bagged by 4 minions.

And he'd need the entire Justice league to take down killer crock and the penguin.

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It is that you never become porportionately more powerful than your enemies. When this is the case, you lose the sense that you're becoming more powerful as you level up.

That's the complaint. I don't care if I'm taking on Hellion grunts or Rikti grunts.

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Ah - therein lies the issue. Personally, I see the level 40 minion in a whole class than a level 5 minion. They're from other dimensions. They're equipped to the teeth with experimental weaponry. They're giant robots bristling with missiles.

When you say "they're not different", it's straw man because I never said that the rank (i.e. minion) changes meaning over levels. To me, the difference is, and should be the level.

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Are we sub par replacements to the original heroes in your story? Looking at the numbers from the Rikti invasion in your own backstory, the original heroes took out roughly 1000 Rikti soldiers each before they themselves died. The current heroes are only supposed to be equal to 3 Rikti minions now?

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If that were the case Paragon city would have been a rikti outpost long ago. Crey's folly is full of rik bosses. If 3 minions is one hero then what's one Lui? 2 heroes? one boss? 4 heroes? 5 bosses could level a super group. and leave the minions at home darning their socks.

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Butt Kicking Minions I would not want to face 3 equal con of in real comic books

Abomination
Rhino
Wrecker
Wrecking Crew
Mamamoth
Loki's Giants
Amazons
Asguardians
The entire Shi'ar Imperial Guard includeing the 100 level Gladator who moves planets
Mamamoth again
Guardsmen (Stark flying suit model VII)
Those funky hulkbuster armors Manbots?
War Machine armor
Blob
Toad
Solomon Grundy
The Hand (any 3 of the ninja's you choose, daredevil and wolvie have at least 5 levels on em)
Sabertooth

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The abomination is a minion? to whom? He's the arch nemesis of the hulk.

The asgardians are GODS....

The Amazons might as well be gods.

Those comparisons are moot... because the heroes in this game aren't that powerful on the best damn day of their lives. Or are you going to sit there and tell me that any tanker in this game could handle even one let alone 3 wonder womans. Hippolitya would send 10 of you to the hospital without getting her boustierre out of order. Rhino might be a minion to spider man.... but that's because spidey got more powerful over time... like heroes are supposed to. Rhino in this game would take down whole task forces for kicks. and three of them could clean the clocks of every hero in my super group

Man this is funny.