hedgehog_NA

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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.

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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.

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and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.

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I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.

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Hotels have specific laws pertaining to them. Private homes do not. Try again.

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Actually, private homes can throw people out for any reason they want. They're called "trespassing laws". And agreements between private individuals are just that, agreements. If I let you pay to stay at my house and I tell you "but I'm throwing you out if I don't like the way you're acting", there's no laws broken at all and I need no agreement, court orders or specific eviction procedures to do so.

I don't think I'm the one that needs brushing up on U.S. law here.

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actually, you are. What is a rental contract? an agreement between 2 people. The laws vary from state to state, but I know from personal experience that evicting someone is not as easy as calling the police and saying the other person is trespassing.

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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.

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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.

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and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.

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I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.

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Hotels have specific laws pertaining to them. Private homes do not. Try again.

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Do video games?

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Seeing as how it would be a civil case, what would a jury think? who knows. The EULA lets them say "see here what the plaintiff agreed to". But it is not a law in and of itself. Maybe one of our legal scholars could say, but there are circumstances when any "contractual" obligation are void. If the contractee is a minor in some states. In Texas, a minor cannot sign away his rights to litigate. Makes damage waivers real iffy.

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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.

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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.

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and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.

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I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.

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I worked for several ISPs. Users who abused our Terms of Service had their internet access shut off. No eviction proceedings, no nothing.

its just that people who make this arguement commit the logical fallacy of thinking "I pay my rent monthy. I pay CoH monthly. Therefore CoH is the same as paying Rent and the same rules apply". Seeing as they've already exhibited a lack of reading comprehension skills, critical thinking skills, common sense, and basic literacy, is it so surprising that they'd draw illogical conclusions as well?

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And your EULA is the starting point for jury deliberations. Just like that sign outside the grocery store says they arent responsible for damage from carts. If liability was that easy to duck, lawyers would be out of a job. ask any lawyer what wierd stuff comes out of juries.
but it all really comes to the fact that the devs have control of the code, while we have control of our credit cards. Piss enough of us off and your credit card isnt enough to keep them gainfully employed. The devs seem to realize this, you do not.

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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.

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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.

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and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.

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I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.

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Hotels have specific laws pertaining to them. Private homes do not. Try again.

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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.

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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.

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and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.

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You acknowledge that the comm officers were "out of whack". Which implies you understand that using them the way they were being used was also "out of whack". And, you are not brand new to the game, so you also know that taking advantage of something that is "out of whack" "should not be done".


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No there are all kinds of things I consider out of whack that the devs may or may not. It can be little things like using the Ouro to get to cimerora or it can be larger things. I don't make the call on whats legit or not. They do. You can say I should have endlessly but the fact is there is no way I could have.

As I said above I play this as a game to relax. I don't see myself as deputy dev. While I will certainly abide by rules and even the requests of the developers they actually need to make them. Asking me to guess and threatening me if I guess wrong is really not a relaxing scene for me.

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"While I will certainly abide by [the] rules . . . ."

You recognized that the Comm Officers were behaving in an unintended manner. (That they were "out of whack.")

You have been playing the game long enough to know that stacking a map with them to maximize that unintended behavior would be considered an exploit.

You have been playing the game long enough to know that using exploits is against the rules, and has been since before even this particular exploit.

So how does the Devs not specifically TELLING you not to use this exploit excuse you from following the rules you already knew?

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What you are saying is that the devs make changes in the game because they are not WAI. If you use these not WAI parts of the game you are exploiting. The devs changed EM, thus it was not WAI. Every player that used EM prior to the change was an exploiter.

What he was saying is there is a difference between something that needs change and a code exploit. Comm officers giving too much xp was not a code exploit, it was an oversight by the devs that they knew about long before they changed it. A simple MOTD saying "dont do this or else" would have taken care of all the debate. Simple as that. It wouldnt be retroactive punishment, simple deal with those that ignored a popup that everyone logging in would have seen. End of discussion.

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Well, the only definition that counts for exploits is what the devs consider it to be. They've stated that an exploit is when you use an unforeseen or unintended game mechanic to give yourself a statistical advantage that you wouldn't have in normal gameplay.

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so by that definition, freakshow are an exploit. they give better xp. An exploit is where you get a statistical advantage over other people playing the same content. If you kill that council boss and get 800xp and I find a way to get 1600xp.

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Right, because Freaks giving higher xp certainly wasn't intended.

Or wait, were you only using the parts of the definition that were convenient to your argument? My mistake, carry on.

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using your definition, I have no way to know what xp the devs intended to give for that defeat. How in the hell am I supposed to know whether that statistical advantage is intended or not? If I fill a mission with freaks because they give better xp, why is this not a problem, yet some other type is? The rikto comm officers were not an exploit. They were however, a mob that needed to be adjusted. Show me what the devs intended when they gave freaks more xp than council? Unless you have a red name hidden there some where, you cant.
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I like the addition of ranged for melee.

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now can I have the same range on my ranged attacks?

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However this road has signs saying that private vehicles are restricted from driving on the road and the test you took to legally drive says you have to stay on authorized roads


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Red Herring. Powerleveling and farming is not a illegal in Co* so your analogy is frivolous.

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never said it was. In fact in my analogy the carpool lane, ie power leveling lane was just fine (it got you there the fastest and you didn't have to even learn to drive). the forestry road is the analogy for the MEOW team/exploit road.

Maybe my analogy could have been clearer, but nowhere did I say that power leveling was wrong, only breaking the rules to get somewhere faster was.

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Point taken, but it was never said that Comm Officers was an exploit. With as obvious as it was, and as much as it was talked about, nothing was done to hide that fact either. So someone would have had to steal the restricted sign, or they just forgot to post it in the first place.

I don't disagree that the Comm Officers offered to much reward, or debating that they should have been removed, but about whether it was an exploit or not. I don't feel it was.

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Well, the only definition that counts for exploits is what the devs consider it to be. They've stated that an exploit is when you use an unforeseen or unintended game mechanic to give yourself a statistical advantage that you wouldn't have in normal gameplay. Seeing as missions within the game have always had a mixture of enemies, creating a map filled with a single enemy that basically self-nerfs itself in that situation.... is an exploit.

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so by that definition, freakshow are an exploit. they give better xp. An exploit is where you get a statistical advantage over other people playing the same content. If you kill that council boss and get 800xp and I find a way to get 1600xp.

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I agree with hedgehog.

it wasn't the comm officer nerf. Anyone that went on that farm knew darned good and well it was only temporary.

It wasn't even some undefined 'vision' about what the MA was for that bugged those of us that don't mind farming.

It was positron coming in and pointing a gun at everyone with only vague warnings about what would and would not get you shot.

THAT is where 99% of the vitriol in regards to the recent nerfs are coming out. Nobody likes being threatened, not even if you are reasonably certain that the threat is not directed at you personally.

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And I'm sure the Devs don't like being called stupid, idiots or other such insults or being insinuated as conspirators to the 'master plan' while being taunted with the threats of closing multiple accounts.

And I'm positive they frown upon it happening with almost every new thing they bring to the table.

It happened with the PvPers and now, some of the farmers. If you're willing to act arrogant, rude and try to 'intimidate' the Devs... expect it to happen in kind.

The fact that he was professional about it is a testament to his personality. Half the people I know would've smacked many of you in the mouth if yall approached them in the same way yall talk at the devs.

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The difference is that Posi is the senior representative for COX for NCSOFT. Noe of us represent anything other than our selves. You may not have seen it as unprofessional, but a significant number of his customers did. And yes, he did out right say that some of us had poor morals because we didnt follow his nebulous vision of the rules of this mmo. (see his moral compass). So no, he is not perfect, neither is his customer base. But he is the representative of a multinational corporation and should act like it.

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Companies do this all the time; they hand out reprimands, they fire people, they ban visitors and cease services over both hard rules, conduct codes or even just the spirit of their business. And they tend to not be shy about telling a person why. If Positron wasn't as PC as you would like, which strikes me as funny given the discussions I've seen to date here... then do what people seem to like to imply around here; grow a thicker skin (ie., don't lose sleep over it).

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No, companies tend to deal with problem customers on a case by case basis. They don't hold a news conference and threaten their customer base.

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I agree with hedgehog.

it wasn't the comm officer nerf. Anyone that went on that farm knew darned good and well it was only temporary.

It wasn't even some undefined 'vision' about what the MA was for that bugged those of us that don't mind farming.

It was positron coming in and pointing a gun at everyone with only vague warnings about what would and would not get you shot.

THAT is where 99% of the vitriol in regards to the recent nerfs are coming out. Nobody likes being threatened, not even if you are reasonably certain that the threat is not directed at you personally.

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And I'm sure the Devs don't like being called stupid, idiots or other such insults or being insinuated as conspirators to the 'master plan' while being taunted with the threats of closing multiple accounts.

And I'm positive they frown upon it happening with almost every new thing they bring to the table.

It happened with the PvPers and now, some of the farmers. If you're willing to act arrogant, rude and try to 'intimidate' the Devs... expect it to happen in kind.

The fact that he was professional about it is a testament to his personality. Half the people I know would've smacked many of you in the mouth if yall approached them in the same way yall talk at the devs.

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The difference is that Posi is the senior representative for COX for NCSOFT. Noe of us represent anything other than our selves. You may not have seen it as unprofessional, but a significant number of his customers did. And yes, he did out right say that some of us had poor morals because we didnt follow his nebulous vision of the rules of this mmo. (see his moral compass). So no, he is not perfect, neither is his customer base. But he is the representative of a multinational corporation and should act like it.

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Most farmers arent asking to abuse the content, only a very small fraction, who the rest don't like anyhow. Theyre asking very reasonably for their playstyle, which tends to favor repeatable missions filled with monsters, to not be treated like its ruining the game. Most farmers agreed that comm officers needed to die a horrible death. Most farmers don't want to burn this game into the ground, but they don't want to play your "masterpieces of arc-ish literature" either.

But if you asked the forum's opinion the very second you so much as run a Katie Hannon/ITF/Whathaveyou for a quick level up or two, your playstyle is wrong, evil, and needs to die in the fiery pits of hell because you don't play like them.

I ran all the Croatoa arcs just to unlock katie. Did I enjoy the arcs? Yes. Do i deserve to be villainized, have my characters deleted and be forcibly ejected from the game forever because between bouts of roleplaying and soloing AE arcs I enjoy a speedran Katie or ITF or even an AE farm for quick exp and/or loot? Apparently so if you ask most of the most vocal on the forum.

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Forumites are going to have varying opinions on what constitutes farming; that's a given.

However, the playstyle you noted does not put you in any danger of having your characters deleted or being forcibly removed from the game. You're safe there.

Nothing you described would fall under the categories of "extreme" or "abuse" or "egregious" or "exploit," especially since Positron indicated those all go together (the worst of the worst).

Have fun, with no worries.

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I know that. My point is that you do so much as even something vaguely related to farming and some of the forumites act like you just [censored] their children at gunpoint.

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the irony is that the nerfing of comm officers, tickets etc is not even the most damaging part of this fiasco. It is the damage done by posi and his decision to join forum pvp. He has changed the attitude of a part of his customers to adversarial. While some(mainly those he patted on the head as good peasants) think there was nothing of the sort there, others felt otherwise. He would have been much better off just doing the nerfs and shutting up. The damage he did was to the long term attitudes and relationship. MA can be fixed with small code changes, the other cant.

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And has Positron banned you yet? Has he deleted any of your characters? De-leveled any? How about your friends? Any of them get hit yet? No? How about any person you've interacted with in the game? Not a single one? Oh, wow. Then maybe just maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe you're all over reacting.

NAH! Couldn't be that at all.

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Yes, as a matter of fact, It has happened. and discussing exactly who and why will get ME banned from the forums. Please stop proudly holding up your ignorance as 'proof'.

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Dean wormer will put you on double secret probation. jk

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Glad they told people that an enemy that was behaving exactly as it always had was an exploit.

Its also good that there were clear and consistent guidelines on what xp/tickets could/should be expected from a mission or an enemy

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hahahahahahaha yeah right.

C'mon. If you thought you were "supposed" to be able to level that fast with basically no risk, you were delusional.

And has Positron banned you yet? Has he deleted any of your characters? De-leveled any? How about your friends? Any of them get hit yet? No? How about any person you've interacted with in the game? Not a single one? Oh, wow. Then maybe just maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe you're all over reacting.

NAH! Couldn't be that at all.

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here is a hint: if I point a gun at you, you are threatened. I dont have to pull the trigger for it to be wrong.

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Your reasoning: irrelevant.

Rules: forbidden: use of exploits: in place: prior.

Paragon Studios: personnel: 50 employees.
Players: superior numbers: vast.

Paragon Studios: code lockdown: 5th Anniversary.
Code changes: forbidden.

Analogy: fewer cops: more drivers; speeding: remains illegal.

Upright stance: lower ambulatory appendage: lacking.

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answer:bs

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Thanks Joyce.

So these people that are afraid of running anything involving the MA system:

Are afraid that their character might get removed and/or account banned based on criteria not given to the player.
Coupled with a ticket cap and reduce xp from custom mobs... gives them no reason to use the MA system over standard paper missions.

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Joyce's post did give the criteria. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know when something is an extreme exploit. The Rikti Comm abusers and fire imp exploiters knew exactly what they were doing. Unless you're do something very similar, there's nothing to fear.

The examples have been given. It is impossible to define *exactly* what can be an exploit, because if they knew about all of them, they would be addressed. Players will always find a way to get around the system; they do so at their own risk.

Positron made it clear in his FAQ that "normal" farming is not in danger. It's only the extreme, worst of the worst exploits that are.

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they knew about these exploits and they didnt take care of them...

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Wow Gear_Freak, how did you EVER play this game before IOs and the market existed?

You do realize that you can still play the game just fine with SOs and less, right? IOs are an optional feature that can be completely ignored, as can the market.

Sounds like the people that are getting all excited over imaginary "stuff" need the oxygen more than I do... they seem to be hyperventilating.

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I have heard this bs for a long time. Yes, you can play without them. yes you can stay in atlas and never level up also. The content for the last several years seems to be more and more optional. If I was not intended to use it, then as far as I am concerned, they didnt make it. So for the last 2 years the devs have screwed around and not released any real content. Or are they just making content for a select few? If we arent intended to use IO's, please get the damn WW out of our zones (along with ae) to reduce the lag while we continue to do "intended" content.

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General feeling I'm getting is that people are still scared. o.o! A third of my people won't go near the sewers with their new characters like we used to, for fear it would be considered an exploit! x_X They don't wanta do more then one MA mission arc in a day due to possibly being flagged. I had an officer think his characters were locked, and just about QUIT before I had him double check, it turned out to be a glitch o.@ Overall the feeling is dread, despite alot of my people not having done anything wrong. Now as far as a fear device this worked fine, but it may be lingering too long. :P

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So are people really scared to level? I've never met anyone with that attitude in-game, and I've seen no evidence of it, even though it's been talked about a lot on the forums. Is this something that depends on what circles one travels in?

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Uhm. I have see chat from allot of people that are "scared" of being banned just because they have done a mish twice cause they like it. There is a new sense of fear amoung players now. I see it mostly in newer players, but it's not limited to them. As Sg leader and being on vent I hear that topic more now then ever before and these people aren't your farmers either. it's the people that want to finish their 50's off with io's or the early level procs and they don't have 120 mil to spend.

So whether that fear was intended to scare the normal player or not it's most certainly here and among the veteran players who don't farm as well. The Devs have achieved that goal.

MA is fun and it's a great thing for the game for sure no one said it wan't fun. But the nerfs have changed my mood towards it and the patch changes and talk from posi have scared allot of other people who don't farm. And it's not a "being in the right circle" thing either. You listen hard enough you'll hear it.

But even so, this is still my favorite game and I still support it even though I hate what some changes have done.

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It is not really even all "fear". The basic relationship between many of us and the devs has changed. Posi choose to make it adversarial and nebulously punitive. Players have reacted. Maybe some sg's are still running tfs and the like. Not seeing the pugs.

The RPers are still giddy about it, I have seen an increasing number of others that say "I dont do MA"

If posi doesnt want the filthy farmers and people that play to advance and improve their characters in his little baby, he has done a pretty good job of it. I know I dont want to be involved in any way in someones rp fantasies.

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It was soon yesterday....I think.

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If you take soon, translate it to pidgin spanish(el soono) and do a astological and numeralogical examination you get a direct translation to the year 1844. Beta started in may of 1844..Some one is pullin a fast one!!!!! I demand temporal satisfaction.

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So I'm in before the lock, right?

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No, no, I'm sure this thread will turn into a productive discussion of the merits of Emu raising.

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There's a guy a few miles down the road that was raising emus. I think the downturn in the economy got him, though. It was almost like driving past a wildlife park. He had a couple of donkeys to chase the coyotes away from the emus.

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queen victoria said "we are not emus!!"

or something like that


oh and +1

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Also, male praying mantis can't actually have sex UNTIL the female seperates the head from the body.


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OMG I've learned something! This thread IS awesome! Thanks, Redmanfx!

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I was going to comment...but nope....


no matter where you go.......

there you are....

betcha cant eat +1

anybody wanna dance??????

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It takes a special kind of brilliant to hurl invectives at moderators.

Kudos!

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they dont listen to anything else...It might work..or the horse may learn to sing.


edit: IBTL

double edit: im in ur thread farmin ma post count

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Moderator 8 simply locked it down. tell me where that says, "they want to hear what we have to say???"

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The fact that you still have forum-access still means they are not completely uninterested in what you have to say. Keep calling the Devs/Moderators names, keep throwing stuff in their faces and perhaps then they truly will be completely uninterested, you know?

To the point you made about this being a discussion, your OP in the locked thread didn't really seem like you wanted to discuss anything but simply rant, complain and generally accuse the Devs of ruining your game experience, which by the way, I personally dislike.

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The simple fact he locked the thread without moving it to where they would like to see it tells me they don't want to hear about it. but I do like the game and it's content. I don't like all the nerfs one after the other. So I will stop now.

Pleas delete this thread as it was made due to being mad.

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nerfs are nothing new..they gutted EM....and pvp and lots of other things

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I will miss the chiken tug animation, though. I wonder why they keep removing stuff and never saying why?

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The assumption has been to take bugs out of the game until such a time as they can be fixed and reintegrated -- but, while that makes sense for maps, I'm struggling to understand how it applies to emotes.

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Do you really expect to see them back? Kind of like the COP will be back any day now.