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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:I'll buy that.We started off in this branch of the conversation when you looked at what was in front of you and felt there was something "off" about it, so you tell me
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Quote:It's the economy. Despite network news talking-heads harping about "incipient recovery - any time now", most retailers stocked very little holiday inventory. So what little they have can sell out if there's any demand; as in the case of a popular product model. -
Good grief things are going out of stock fast.
Hopefully they've got most of it back in by the time I go to buy it. the alarming bit is they don't even have an eta on the mobo. hopefully they plan on getting more in. It's got some pretty good reviews.
Stupid holiday season. -
Looking up some internal pics of that makes my head hurt slightly. it's as though I walked into a room where people were standing on the ceiling. I'm not sure if I'm standing in the right place or they are.
BTX cases. Somehow those came and went without me even being aware of them. sad though. It seems like a really nice compromise. besides the Open-on-the-left thing with ATX cases was probably originally an arbitrary choice anyway. Why the hell NOT have cases designed both ways and allow the user to pick. Ah well. Maybe someday.
Quote:You can't buy an XPS case by itself because Dell is afraid of someone filling the chassis with low-quality components and then selling it with their name on it (marinate in the irony of that statement for a moment =P).
Quote:Meet the Thermaltake Level 10 case, designed in conjunction with BMW DesignWorks. Only $850 at NewEgg, well not really, it's only available as part of a $4700 list (save over $500) of top end parts. -
Quote:MWAHAHAHA, break out a Dremel tool and remove it! >:] Then, replace it with one of Theeese! >:] (Have I mentioned I dislike the layout design-decisions in most cases on the market?
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(Yeah yeah, I know; this is something that appeals to just me isn't it?.)
Ha, no that's pretty awesome. I especially like anything involving bungie cords.
Sadly my Dremel is busted. (In reality, I won't touch case modding with a 10ft pole.)
I particularly like this phrase from your link:
"Therfore it is required that the rubbers are checked every 12-18 month for signs of wear&tear. Replacement rubbers are available at a nominal fee or even free of charge at your NoiseMagic dealer."
Yeah, my old college used to give em away free too...
Anyway, it DOES seem a bit counterintuitive. i mean i like the thought that the old HD bays were a royal pain to work with, but I'm not really sure blocking the front fan airflow was the fix for this.
Strike two Case manufacturers! Please knock it out of the park on the third pitch! -
Quote:Makes sense. Stupid little buggers are adding up though. :PYou can mount fan filters over them. Either the plastic ones or the metal ones you saw in my link to newegg earlier in the thread. It won't create a solid barrier, but for the most part, if you have positive case pressure, you shouldn't need it.
Worth it. -
Man, as nice as that hard drive tray looks it's GOT to do some pretty serious airflow restriction from the front of the case. It looks like a wall. I'm beginning to wonder if that bottom mounter fan spot really SHOULD be filtered and used as an intake.
Nice. It's a VERY positive review. Looks like we've picked a great case. I'm a bit concerned by that front end constriction, but i figure if I mount two fans up front, and the lower one on the side filtered and drawing in, and use the back and rear top for pushing the air out, block off the lower and upper side ports and just leave the other top port open to let the positive pressure encourage a bit more heat to rise out, everything should work out nicely. I'm still tempted to stick an outblowing fan on that 80mm back of the mobo spot, to help encourage a negative pressure in the upper back quadrant of the case to encourage draw from the higher pressure lower front quadrant, but i suppose I probably won't bother, though i doubt I'll block off that port..
The bit about the optical drive bay only having clips on the open side of the case and needing screwed in on the other side is a bit vexing, but a small price to pay. i REALLY like how nicely bundled up and clipped down all of the case wires are. I'm going to have to REALLY do a job on the power cables just to maintain that nice clean appearance.
I'm still a bit fuzzy on how to block off those unused fan ports. I suppose i'll just use a dark colored piece of heavy gage glossy paper and some decent tape. -
Excellent stuff guys. Thanks a bunch.
I only meant that i was going to put filters on the intakes. Not EVERYTHING, everything...
Wait there are TWO top fan ports? Good grief. This case is like swiss cheese.
Ok, I've found some good pictures on Overclock.net to help me see where all of the fan locations on this case are. Though the guy with the pictures seems to have gone a bit off the deep end, fanwise...
According to him it's got,
2x80-140mm Door
2x80-140mm Roof
1x80-140mm Floor
1x80-140mm Front
1x80-140mm Front
1x80mm in the Back Panel
Good grief! What have I gotten myself into?
Ok so I'm not thinking I'll be buying THAT many fans. Since any overclocking I'd do would be minimal anyway I'll never NEED that many fans. I guess I'm going to need to block up some ports (Top side and bottom). Sheesh. What sort of thing is safe to use for that? Some carefully cut cardboard and tape or just leave them be?
He certainly seems to like the case though, And it sounds like cable management will be a snap with a little fiddling. Though as much work as he's put into the fans and such, you'd think he'd put a black faceplate on that DVD drive...
Guess I'll skip the 80mm. Maybe (MAYBE) throw another pair of 120mm's in there to fill out the 2 front, 1 Side, 1 Back, and 2 Top. (Comes with 3 and I can buy 3 more) But, then I'll have more or less equalized air pressure. My sense of symmetry HATES the idea of using one top fan but not both. :P
Ok this is going TOO far. 2 Front, and 1 side blowing in and one Back and one top blowing out. Filters for the ones going in and the PSU. That does bring be back to what to do with the extra fan ports. What's safe to block them with?
Oh, and Father Xmas, regarding your sig... "Be rary of wousing a rizard's wrath - rousing a rizard's - Be wary of making a magician angry!"
Great book AND movie... -
Quote:True enough. Besides if it's blowing in it'll help carry some of that heat up to that only middling effective top fan, thus making it a bit more useful.I meant the 80 mm wouldn't be doing much to cool the motherboard blowing outward vice blowing inward. It's the air being pushed against the surface and smeared around that carries away heat. If you're purposing the fan as a generic exhaust and aren't concerned about motherboard overheating anyway (which you shouldn't need to be), then it might do what you want blowing outward.
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Quote:Cool. Good to know. That was more or less my original thinking.A slight positive pressure inside your case is better than a slight negative pressure; especially since the intakes will be covered with filters. It keeps particulates from seeping into the case and gives the internal fans something to work with.
Quote:Also keep in mind that any top fan looks to be heavily baffled by the chassis, so it won't be evacuating as much air as another fan.
Quote:I would definitely keep at least one of the side fans facing inward; it's there to feed fresh, cool air to the CPU cooler and graphics card. You have a front fan, but it's got this stupid chunk of metal blocking its airflow, not that the HD cage needs to be that solid, so it doesn't push air into the motherboard cavity as well as it could. Yet if the front fan wasn't there, you'd have your HDs sitting in a dead spot =P. (Sorry, I have objections to common case-airflow designs that basically aren't addressed by anyone on the market.)
Quote:If you get a tower CPU cooler, which all the designs discussed in this thread are, that upper side-fan isn't going to earn you much since it will be blowing against the flat top of the cooler.
I'm not sure if having the 80 mm fan facing outward is going to get you much either. It certainly won't contribute to motherboard cooling very much; which is what it's placed there for. But then you probably aren't going to need extra rear-cooling for the CPU and motherboard. You could try it that way and see what happens.
Quote:Short version: I don't think you're "over doing it" since you won't be getting full effect from many of the fans to begin with. And your climate concerns are certainly understandable.
Anyone have any other thoughts on things? Opinions, etc? -
Quote:Yeah, but it's a bit irritating. Ahh well it is what it is.Regardless of Socket type, any CPU cooler large enough to matter these days basically has two possible mounting schemes: "pain in the butt yet secure" or "snap-simple but insecure".
Quote:Also, if you're planning on putting in both side-fans, you might want to break out a ruler before shopping for a replacement CPU cooler. Some are pretty tall.
Quote:Corsair is a solid power supply brand. There are better ones I could recommend to you, but there are none better that are cheaper.
Quote:If the power supply is going to be "eating off the floor", remember to get a filter for it, too.
Thanks for all the help so far folks. I really appreciate it all!
Ok, new topic for discussion. Fan placement.
The case has 120mm ports on the: Front, Back, Bottom, Top, and two on the open side (upper and lower). and one 80 MM on the back side of the motherboard. Any opinions on which ports I should use and which fans should be in and which out? I'll have 5 120mm fans and 1 80mm (This doesn't count the fans on the PSU)
I'm thinking Front 120mm: In, Open Side Lower 120mm: in Bottom 120mm: In Back 120mm: Out, Top 120mm: Out, and backside 80mm: out?
Or should maybe the side fan be blowing out rather than in since I seem to be drawing in more air than I'm removing. this Does leave the top open side port open so the CPU cooler has space.
Or am I overdoing it on the fans? Opinions? -
Quote:Brilliant. I had no idea these even existed, but of course they do. Noob moment for me there. Nah probably no serious overclocking. Maybe mess with it a tad when I'm bored, but I generally rather my hardware has a longer life rather than a 5% gain now....Why waste the time and money with water? Are you overclocking?
If not, using fan filters is a FAR more economical means of keeping the inside of your case clean.
Quote:That's actually true. The "vapor chamber" works the same was as the "heat pipes" adopted in recent years for CPU cooling . A heat pipe is a hollow tube of thermally-conductive material with an inner coating of some sort of "wicking" material that absorbs liquids. The inside of the tube is at a very low vapor pressure and the wicking material is moistened with a tiny amount of liquid with high thermal capacity (often just plain water). A slight addition of heat on one end of the tube will cause the liquid to boil at the low internal pressure. The liquid vapor travels to the far end of the heat pipe and condenses on the relatively-cooler surface there; depositing its heat. The wicking material causes the liquid to be carried back to the hot end of the heat pipe to replace liquid boiling away there. So long as the temperature difference from one end to the other can be maintained, the pipe will conduct heat more efficiently than a bar of solid copper of equal size.
A "vapor chamber" is the same idea, except in a box form rather than a tube. Sapphire's marketing material draws a comparison to a boiling skillet with a lid on it. Added to the vapor chamber is a larger total heat sink surface-area than in the standard cooler and a larger, much quieter fan. The Vapor-X editions of Sapphire's cards have proved very popular.
It does vent into your case rather than out the back, but then the standard 5770 doesn't breath that well. It has partially obscured venting because of the second DVI port on the back; this is the same for all the 5xxxs, save the upcoming Eyefinity Edition with six mini-displayport connectors.
If you got the Vapor-X, it would either be for overclocking headroom or the (significantly) lower noise signature. (Or just for owning smexy engineering that someone has put a lot of thought into, which is a factor for me ^.^)
Quote:Let me point out here that the Cooler Master RC-690 has a ton of optional mounting locations for fans that could be acting as intake vents into the case (two top, one bottom, a second on the left side and one low profile one on the right side behind the CPU). The PSU has its own vent on the bottom of the case and all of the drive bay covers are meshed. You can't say that this case isn't well ventilated.
You may want to block off some of the unused ones or consider placing filters in front of them as well considering your dog/cat hair situation no to mention dust bunnies. And you only really need filters on the front and side intake fans.
Again my heat management paranoia comes from living in Florida. I try to keep my apartment a stable 75 degrees, but since I'm on the Eastern side of my building it can get pretty warm in here while the Air Conditioner struggles to keep up. It's mostly paranoia from my college apartment no climate control and little room ventilation days.
I will add swapping out the low end fans I can afford now for some nicer ones later. Sounds good.
I must say. The Slot 1156 cpu coolers all look uncomfortably complicated to put on. From the pictures anyway. I'm not really looking forward to that.
I also wish that PSU had modular cords on it, but Man I'm NOT willing to pay the price difference for the equivalent one that does. Maybe nother brand pSU. I really don't want to go very low on the PSU quality though. I suppose I'd rather have wires than a crappy modular PSU -
Quote:While I realize that the following isn't that popular an option, if you find that the stock cooler is too loud/doesn't cool enough, back when I bought my ati x1950xtx, before I ever installed it, I yanked the stock cooler off and replaced it with a Zalman VGA cooler and placed tiny heatsinks on all the memory chips.
It was quiet and cool and ran like a champ for a long time. Still have it sitting on a shelf waiting to be used somewhere else. Cracks me up comparing that card to the 5850 I'm looking at now.
I've had two fans go out on nvidia cards over the years and i've replaced them out of necessity, but never as part of a plan. I might consider doing it at some point, but at this point given the fanage in my planned system, i'm REALLY not thinking I'll be needing more air cooling. Though given that I have 2 dogs and one cat i might consider swapping to liquid cooled at some later point. Help keep the dust and hair issues at a minimum. But for now, I'm good with the stock cooler on the GPU -
Yeah I've made it a point to always stay one driver behind on my 7800. ATI used to have some pretty serious driver reliability issues waaay back in the day. Are they better about that now?
*EDIT* Huh, well this makes me more ok with my plan of buying an ATI vid card on my new system. I wasn't keen on the CoX/ATI issues currently still haunting us, but it sounds like I'd also have some headaches with the Nvidia in the 64bit world... -
Quote:Eh, I don't think the extra $15 would be a problem. Just one less pizza between now and then.So in theory, or if you don't mind the noise, you could probably use one of the $165 5770 models and be fine with the fan they ship with.
I like the idea behind the fully ducted fans. I live in Florida on the sunny side of an apartment building so my place gets warm during the day. It's air conditioned, but if you've never experienced a Florida mid-day in June it's BRIGHT and HOT. the sun here reminds me of the overly bright washed out sunlight in the movie Pitch Black. LOVE December though. Therefore I'm PACKING this case with fans. I've had cooling issues in the past and I'm sort of being especially conscious of it this time around. My Psu draws air in from below and spits it out the back. My case will have 4 120mm fans (Front, Back, and 2 on the open side), and one 80mm BEHIND the mobo, and I'm giving serious consideration to hooking a second fan onto the CPU cooler to create a more solid flow through. So the idea of the ducted heatsink on the video card appeals to me. I like the idea of it not dumping more heat into the case, although honestly with all that ventilation it probably wouldn't really be an issue. i also suspect I'll already be screwed noise-wise with all of those fans going. I'm hoping that, since I'll have so MUCH airflow, I can keep them set to low. I guess we'll see.
ANYWAY, Yeah the Sapphire and XFX cards were the ones I was eyeing.
Other than the cooler though I can't see what the difference is between these two...
SAPPHIRE 100283L Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card - Retail
and
SAPPHIRE Vapor-X 100283VXL Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card - Retail
*EDIT* What little I can find looks like it's a slightly (VERY slight) overclocked 5770 with a funky "vapor chamber technology" cooler which Sapphire says is more effective than the original fully ducted one. No clue it that's true. -
OK. Here is my Item list as it currently stands.
The GTX 260 is back in stock, but for how long. I'm also now pretty attached to the idea of having DX11 support so I'm pretty sold on the Radeon 5770. Not looking forward to a few months of crippled CoH, but what can you do. Gotta think about the future.
I'm not really sure which brand of Radeon to go with though. Anybody have any preference on that? If so who and why?
*EDIT* Ok I totally forgot to attach my wishlist and had some problems getting the website to let me edit.
HERE is the list.
Keep in mind the Video card is likely to change to some version of the 5770. -
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At worst it'll be no worse than CoH as it is since if the GR areas suck we can just stay in the old world.
If it somehow sucks AND ruins the old game then I'll take my loverly new PC and play games like the above mentioned new Alien Vs Predator, and many many more.
In fact, as I mentioned earlier, I need the new computer anyway. GR is just a bonus. -
Ok, I guess I'm sold on that Radeon 5770. It's a bit slower than the GTX 260, but after looking at the differences between DX10 and DX 11,
Watched a bit of the upcoming AVP game and learned it'll support DX11. I'm totally sold. I'll just make sure to get a second one and crossfire them this summer.
It's just going to suck a bit playing the ATI version of CoH till GR launches. -
Quote:Sadly, it's not really a question of my budget going higher the longer I wait. It's more based on what I've saved at this point, and the projected increase of that savings until early February, this is how much I'll have to spend. I'd LOVE to be able to save more, but as you say, eventually you just have to go for it. Frankly, if I could, I'd do this early January, but due to some holiday bonus action I'm getting a big infusion late January (Yeah bonus AFTER X-mas. Lovely, ain't it?)1) That's good, waiting that is. Also allows you to stash away some more money for the new rig.
2) Not waiting forever is also a good thing. At some point you have to stop listening to talk of price cuts or the hype of what's coming in "only" another couple of months or you'll never upgrade.
Quote:3) True, the HD 5770 is 10-15% slower than a GTX 260/216. Actually ATI is bracketing nVidia's offerings with their HD 5xxx series of cards. The HD 57xx series is faster than the GTS 250 yet slow than the GTX 260/216 and the HD 58xx series is faster than the GTX 285 leaving nVidia holding the ground between with their GTX 2xx series of cards, which people have mentioned are becoming harder and harder to get. nVidia may have the cards designed around the new G300 GPU out by February but they will be priced for enthusiasts with nothing in the $200 range.
Quote:4) FrostyTech is a good site to find lots of CPU cooler reviews. So are X-bit Labs and bit-tech.net.
Quote:5) Well you did mention you were trying to keep the price in check. It's really easy to rationalize to spend just a little more for that bigger drive or faster memory or faster video card and before you know it the price is now way above what you were willing to spend.
On the upside I might be able to add to it a bit come summer. Perhaps double the RAM, a second vid card (X-fire or SLI whichever depending), and a second HD. Remains to be seen.
Btw, I like your build Xmas. If i didn't need a monitor I might just swipe it. Sadly I need to work that in. My CRT with the blinky upper left corner just HAS to go... It's giving me headaches... -
OP here,
Ok addressing several points.
1) I'm actually going to be doing the buying mid to early February most likely, I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row now. As my original targets price was a bit lower than this any price decline is a very good thing as far as my checkbook is concerned. Out of stock RIGHT NOW isn't really a problem. They've got a month to get things back IN stock. I'll just have to see what stock survives the holiday season and see what comes back INTO stock afterwards as far as Video cards go. If I can get the Nvidia I'll probably not bother to SLI, but If I end up with the slightly less impressive performance of the 5770 then I'll probably Crossfire it sometime this summer or fall.
2) Waiting for a release date. Not gonna do it. While this rig is intended to play GR (Hopefully on max) I also REALLY need a new computer. My Athlon 2700 system (Yes it's that old) is just about garbage at this point. It NEEDS replaced. I'm buying a new computer because i need a new computer. it's just fortuitous timing that CoX has an expansion coming out near to the same time.
3) ATI vs Nvidia. I've been wary of ATI for a long time. I've been wearing blue since the early 90's. I will consider ATi, but looking at the benchmarks the 5770 just can't keep up with the GTX 260's on most benchmarks. Oh supposedly ATI will be great (Or at least finally functional) with GR, but I won't ONLY be playing GR. Hell i'm FINALLY making the move from a history of AMD processors to my first Intel since my old 386. I've been on AMD up till now. I suspect I'll stick with Nvidia so long as i can find a decent one unless I get some pretty compelling evidence that I shouldn't or that I'm hamstringing myself by doing so. Admittedly the DX 11 thing is the first really compelling thing I've heard. The phasing out of the GTX 2xx line just means It'll either be tougher to find. If I CAN'T find one then I['ll HAVE to go ATI.
4) Cooling. Yeah i was torn between that Cooler master and this Arctic Cooling heatsink. I just leaned this way randomly. Perhaps I'll stick with the cooler master. I've had their stuff before and really liked it anyway. I'm buying a couple of extra cooler master case fans anyway. I just wish someone would someday invent a good CPU heatsink that installed easily for a reasonable price. BOTH of the coolers i'm looking at are supposedly monsters when it comes to instillation.
5) Hard Drive. I could save a bit of money going smaller, I suppose, but man. I'd REALLY like to not have to. If it comes down that $20-30 making a BIG difference on some other piece of my hardware i'll do it, but otherwise I'd like to stick with the 1tb
Great info here. Please keep it up! It's also VERY encouraging to see that i managed to pick compatible parts and such after not really following the subject for a few years. -
Ah with the GTX 260 the Newegg page said it'd be back in stock next week. Not likely to actually happen, eh?
*Edit* heh, that guys build is VERY close to what I did. that's reassuring.
Shame he didn't work a monitor in though. -
Quote:Hrm. I'da sworn that 260 was in stock when i looked earlier. Crappola.I can't speak to the Monitor, but otherwise that looks solid. I would make two comments though.
Firstly, the AC Freezer 7 Pro is kind of the bottom end for after market coolers. It's a good one, but it doesn't have a lot of headroom if you plan to do any overclocking. On the other hand, it's also one of the very few coolers that are currently Socket 1156 compatible. If you want an alternate to comparison shop with, there's the Xigmatec + adaptor kit that Father Xmas put into his $1200 CoX build; which is more expensive in total, but has a little more thermal dissipation capacity.
Secondly, the specific GTX 260 you have selected there is out of stock and unlikely to come back into stock as Nvidia has End Of Life-ed the entire GTX 2xx line (it was losing them money). There are a couple of other brands still available on the site, but they cost around $195. As an alternate, you might consider the ATI Radeon HD 5770. It's newer, supports DirectX 11 (which no Nvidia card does currently), and has roughly the same capability as the GTX 260 Core 216. When Going Rogue is released, the ATI graphics oddities mentioned in Bill Z Bubba's sticky thread are also supposed to go away (and the ATI sticker is now at the bottom of the CoH homepage in place of the Nvidia one), so there should be no compatibility difficulties with an ATI card. The specific model linked there is the newly-released Sapphire (good quality) Vapor-X edition (cooler and quieter than standard). You could get a regular version for around ten dollars less.
As for the cooler, Yeah I just figured that, until I've got a bit more capital to throw into it, it'd be better than the stock cooler. I'm also planning to fan up the case a bit more than it comes. in hope of easing the load.
I'll have to take a look at that $1200 CoX build. Somehow i missed that.
I'm... reluctant to go ATI. I've been an Nvidia guy for many many years. I suppose I'll have to look at the video card aspect again. MAYBE I'll go ATI, but we'll see. I also don't much like the idea of playing a criippled CoH for 3-5 months till GR comes out.
Thanks for the input so far folks. I really appreciate it. Specifically I didn't know the GTX 2xx line was toast. Shame. -
It's been a while since I built myself a new computer. As I was looking forward to GR and having, for the first time in a looong time, some extra cash coming up soon, I thought I'd get around to putting together a new one.
Trouble is I'm not really as up on all of this as once I was. As such I'm afraid of making some dippy stumble over compatibility and or functionality from being out of practice.
I thought I'd post the build I've come up to see if anyone can spot any glaring errors. (All of this is to be bought on an egg-type site) I know this isn't a gaming monster but my budget tops out around $1,200
Processor:
Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core ($199.99)
*EDIT* CPU Cooler:
COOLER MASTER Hyper 212 Plus Intel Core i5 & Intel Core i7 compatible RR-B10-212P-G1 120mm "heatpipe direct contact" Long life sleeve CPU Cooler
Mobo:
GIGABYTE GA-P55-UD4P LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel
RAM:
CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
*EDIT* This item might depend somewhat on what is still available when February rolls around. My preference is Nvidia, but i'll do the ATI if I must.
Vid card:
Palit NE3X262SFHD94 GeForce GTX 260 896MB 448-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDC
or
SAPPHIRE 100283L Radeon HD 5770 (Juniper XT) 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card - Retail
HDD:
Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5
PSU:
CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS
Case:
COOLER MASTER RC-690-KKN1-GP Black SECC/ ABS ATX Mid Tower
Monitor:
Acer X223Wbd Black 22" 5ms
OS:
Win 7 Professional (nice price available for students)
Other bits like Blu-ray, DVD burners, Keyboards, Meese, etc I'm pretty sure I know what I doing on. :P
Any opinions? Abuse away!
PS. this was originally intended to be a $1000 rig, but it's gotten a bit away from me. This really is pretty much as high as I can go. -
Or is that frowned upon/disallowed anymore?
If this isn't the place is there a forums for that sort of thing now?
*Edit* or should this perhaps go in the Tech Support forum?