Vexington

This is true, and what's important to keep in mind is.. Player migration does happen, as it did in this example. So during the course of your own team.. Your being a general term, your players get better, and you may end up getting just what you need.

We should probably get back on track, ignoring the idiots, if at all possible, and decide who we can get together to settle and answer questions and disputes. Until we agree on whether there should be a roster-cap, if so, what size? Live, Test? Shark-ban? Stalker-limitation, etc, we can't really move forward.

Nah, see. When you don't have friends, and no one's listening to you, you pretend you're someone else and defend yourself. It's pretty epic. I'm going to start doing that often to win arguments, or at least feel better.

I'm not giving advice at all, but daayyyuuum, son!!!

Also, it may be a factor... But may not. I don't think anything's quite definite as far as whether this will be conducted on Freedom or Test. From what I've seen, more supported Test, but that's a small sample. A lot of people involved don't bother much with the forums, and even if reading through, may not post. (Like me!) So DLing Test, Duping, etc may all be removed from the situation.

Just saying, don't get too excited about what hasn't happened, and if you'd prefer it *not* be on Test, you can try to make that case.

PvP, to a certain extent, was jumpstarted a bit, and now there's a chance to get involved. There's absolutely no reason for anyone who participated and enjoyed, at the the competitive aspect, the League to not join the Ladder. Obviously some won't be leading teams, and some will play more than others. Basically, when you're deciding what team you're trying to get on, you'll want to pick one that matches your skill, or barely exceeds it. Why? obviously, that equates to play-time, which equates to more practice, resulting in either your team growing, or jumping ship, and getting on another. Basically, it works itself out given time/effort.

If I wanted to play with the *people* on my entire team, they would all play matches consistently. Obviously some more than others, but that's the way it goes. Going on skill alone, yeah, they'd all get in the matches, Kat.

It's obviously true that they can start their own from scratch, but if we also get a sign-up thread for people interested in being on Ladder teams, people could be looked at more closely to further facilitate. I don't see any huge problems, honestly. Just a little legwork in a few areas.

Kat, what I think you're missing is the point/fact that anyone could join *this* Ladder and still compete in fun, competitive matches. Even if one or two teams initially are doing better than the others, there will be other teams of relative skill for the other lower-end teams to practice against.

Running two League/Ladders seems like it'd split the PvP community, rather than focus it into something more broad. Kickballs, and random Tourneys could still be regularly held on Test or Live servers with no conflict, or at least little.

As far as there never being conflicting practice/match times, I think it could easily be more complicated than you seemed to let on. It'd be easy if the Leader of one team was making sure a single other player or players on ONE other team currently involved in a separate Ladder didn't have an issue, but if people are more spread out, it'd be a mess to find out who's doing what, when, etc.

I'm in favor of the more random events with regularly scheduled kickballs. Again, any team can join the potential Ladder, so there's no need. If the only fear is of losing, PvP isn't for you, because even in a mini-Ladder, there are teams that will be dominant, and one team will be the worst. No getting around it.

Personally, I'm still all about blind line-ups. Things just progress more smoothly.

I sort of assumed, regardless of what we chose for how we did line-ups, we'd still have a limit on Stalkers simply because Sharks are so ridiculous. This hasn't changed, so that's why.

Supermax is still Super-retarded.

So, we should probably get some people together to hammer out a few details concerning what's carried over from the League, and what's sticking from the Ladder. Obviously, the hybrid would be ideal, at least in my opinion, but we should at least get a better idea of how everyone feels.

How do we go about that? League team Caps? People who are likely to lead teams in the Ladder? Something else entirely? So I'm gonna go drink some vegetable oil while someone finds the answers to these questions.

Something smaller, like a mini-Ladder would be fine for creating new PvPrs, or.. In a way coaching them. That's all great, but in all honestly, I doubt many people in the larger Ladder would be overly enthused about doing both. Conflicting practice/match times is just one reason. Also, if it's 5v5, you're going to run into the same issues you did on the other thread. Most of the PvPrs aren't interested in 5v5s. It'd need to be larger, and if that's the case, the two Ladders would just be in competition with each other.

I'm not saying don't go for it, or don't find a solution to make it work. I just think these are things to consider. The most evident of them, anyway, and if there's an easy fix I don't see. Cheers. =P

Yeah, that was well-stated. Hopefully it's enough to shut down the nay-sayers. Sadly, they didn't get anything so far.

Bottom line is, if you're not currently the best team out there, you won't be just getting rolled by the best. You'll be able to get better and gain PvP experience by playing against other people on your level, and when you choose, you can play some of the better teams. It's not like a good team is asking for you to line up for their firing squad, which is what it seems like some of you are making it out to be.

If someone can't handle losing matches, PvP's not for you, is a short answer/response.

Why can't you understand that some teams will still be better than others? Did you also read what Psoma said? 'Cause it's a great point. People will play with their friends. This is supposed to be fun, remember? Any team can do well. Add practice. Boom, good to go. GG

Also, as far as competition, if you're not immediately able to have close matches with top tier teams, you'll still have good matches with others until you get to that point. You're supposed to be working towards something, and what's better than something just outa reach at the time? >.>

Also, no one's really gotten around to deciding whether or not there should be a cap, and if so, at what point. These things all remain to be seen.

I never said it'd be impossible to compete with splitting teams. Hell, no one's said that. I said it isn't a cure for reality, which is.. At the end of the day. Someone's winning, and someone's losing. And that proposition limits fun. It's also an assumption that what was SMD will be represented in a possible Ladder. That's a stretch. =P

Eloquent!

Splitting up teams is a stupid idea. No matter how you distribute people, there will be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. If they're better, they deserve to be. You seem to have some reservations towards this Ladder unless you can remove the fun from some other pre-existing teams.

That's fairly ignorant. Not everyone can be the best at any certain point in time, and there may be teams you generally always lose to. But there will also be some you beat, and others you trade wins with. Just the nature of anything competitive. We don't get paid to be here. This is for fun. No one's being split up.

Don't start, Kat!!!!!! XD

Yep, basically, if you were to remove them, it'd just leave a void filled by another team, or groups teams currently doing a little better.

Can't change that. It'll always be that way. Not to take away from the fact that any team has the capacity to become one of those teams.

Someone's gotta win, and someone's gotta lose.

Right, I'm not sure why you're concerned. Do you plan on being a bottom rung?

It'll work itself out. Some players/teams will be better than others. When there's a swing/shift a #1 team can now be at the bottom. These things can/will happen in time.

If you'd like to propose an "EVERYONE wins" suggestion, we could just all go PvE. That's not realistic, is what I'm telling you.

So, migrating away from back-and-forth jawing would certainly be helpful. =P

I'm relatively indifferent, personally, whether we're playing Test or Live. This Ladder would be less carebear in it's set-up, but at the same time, for it to have any chance at being successful, we'd still need to cater to new players to a certain extent. Live seems to better facilitate that. A lot of people don't peruse the forums, for one, and everything being located where most kids are already just seems the easiest way to make it happen. But, I'm not pushing strongly either way.

As far as concerns about a some teams being stacked in a way, there's absolutely no getting around that. Something to consider, though. There will be people moving back and forth from teams, and let's be honest. You need to start somewhere. If a team you're leading isn't necessarily going to dominate EVERY other team isn't a reason to throw in the towel before this has even started.
For one, when playing teams that are right on your level, you can expect fun, close, competitive matches pretty regularly.
Next, people improve, and clearly, as we saw with D6, they certainly will.
There are also people kinda floating around who weren't involved with the League but have some ability, but just weren't there at the time or whatever. Without the constant 2-nights a week for matches, this is in a way more lax. Anyway, just my piece.

It'd probably be on Freedom. I mean, it sucks trying to slot new things at times, but everyone, now, for the most part, has something, if not plenty to use. Also, Test is sketchy anyway, and this is more convenient, but that's just my opinion.