Ultimo_

Well, the Invisibility set is more for Phase Shift (supposed to represent his tendency to use his astral form), so I expect to keep that. Also, I do tend to primarily solo (another reason I tend to leave out buffs I can't use myself).

I'll tinker some more, though. Much good advice here.

My strategy had been to slot for RANGE, and then hold them in place before moving in to actually do damage. The trouble began when the Madness Mage had longer range than me, and was unaffected by the hold.

That may be an advantage to Mind, it seems to me that the sleeps have higher mag. Then it's sleep, hold, sleep and you're golden.

Anyhow, here's a quick Rad variation... I'll revamp it yet, as it leaves out some valuable early stuff. Hard to decide what to leave out...


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Dr. Solomon: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Gravity Control
Secondary Power Set: Radiation Emission
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Crush -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(3), Immob-I(3), Immob-I(5), RechRdx-I(5), RechRdx-I(7)
Level 1: Radiant Aura -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(7), Heal-I(9)
Level 2: Gravity Distortion -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9), Hold-I(11), Hold-I(11), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 4: Lift -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(15), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(17)
Level 6: Propel -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(21)
Level 8: Crushing Field -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(23), Immob-I(23), Immob-I(25), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 10: Grant Invisibility -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(27), DefBuff-I(29)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(29), Flight-I(31)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(31), Heal-I(31)
Level 16: Accelerate Metabolism -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(33), EndMod-I(33)
Level 18: Gravity Distortion Field -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(33), Hold-I(34), Hold-I(34), Hold-I(34)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(36), EndMod-I(36)
Level 22: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(36), Flight-I(37)
Level 24: Invisibility -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 26: Wormhole -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(39), Dsrnt-I(39)
Level 28: Recall Friend -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(39)
Level 32: Singularity -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(40), Hold-I(40), Hold-I(40), Immob-I(42), Immob-I(42)
Level 35: Choking Cloud -- Hold-I(A), Hold-I(42), Hold-I(43)
Level 38: EM Pulse -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(43), Hold-I(43), Hold-I(45), Hold-I(45)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 44: Mental Blast -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(45), Dmg-I(46), Dmg-I(46), Dmg-I(46)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Team Teleport -- Range-I(A), Range-I(50), Range-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment

Heh, I took on a Madness Mage with my whole tray full of breakfrees (10 in total), and still got toasted. Just couldn't do any real damage, but then, he was an orange, and I did miss a lot...

I had actually thought about going Illusion/Rad, the rad effects remind me of the various green glow effects of the Circle of Thorns. Something about Illusion just didn't feel quite "right," somehow, and I've never liked Kinetics. The speed boosts are incredibly aggravating so I skipped right over them. Too bad there's not a Psychic secondary set...

Maybe Grav (which I think has good special effects to represent magical attacks) and Rad might be a better combo...

Let me work up a build with that, and I'll report back...

Well, I made a controller. I've been playing for nearly 4 years, and haven't played one, but in trying to make an homage to Dr. Strange, I chose to try one. He's Grav/Kin (and will have several other pools, I'll post the build). If anyone has any suggestions (I'm not 100% sold on the grav/kin as being a good Dr. Strange homage, so I'm open to suggestions here as well...), I'd love to hear them.

I'm finding it a rather strange class to play. It seems you're either god or you're dead. If your hold misses, you're dead. If you're facing a boss or better, you're dead because they ignore controls.

I'm not sure what to make of it. How do people play Controllers, especially solo? What do you do against bosses, especially controlling bosses like Anaethemae or Madness Magi? I fought a Madness Mage, and it was no contest. I used Crush, and then was asleep and held for the rest of the fight because he was immune to the hold.

Anyhow, here's the build.


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Dr. Solomon: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Gravity Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Crush -- Immob-I(A), Acc-I(3), Acc-I(3), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(7)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(7), Heal-I(9), Heal-I(9), Heal-I(11)
Level 2: Gravity Distortion -- Hold-I(A), Acc-I(11), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(15)
Level 4: Lift -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(17), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(19)
Level 6: Propel -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(21), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(23)
Level 8: Crushing Field -- Dmg-I(A), Acc-I(25), Acc-I(25), Immob-I(27), Immob-I(27), Immob-I(29)
Level 10: Stealth -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(29), DefBuff-I(31)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(36)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(31), Heal-I(31)
Level 16: Increase Density -- RechRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33)
Level 18: Gravity Distortion Field -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(34), Hold-I(34), Hold-I(34), Hold-I(36)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(36), EndMod-I(37)
Level 22: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(37), Flight-I(37)
Level 24: Invisibility -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 26: Wormhole -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(39), Dsrnt-I(39), Dsrnt-I(39), Dsrnt-I(40)
Level 28: Recall Friend -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 30: Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(42), EndRdx-I(42)
Level 32: Singularity -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(42), Hold-I(43), Hold-I(43), Immob-I(43), Immob-I(45)
Level 35: Transference -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(45), EndMod-I(45)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(46)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 44: Mental Blast -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(46), Dmg-I(46), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(50), Dmg-I(50), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Team Teleport -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment

Again, the point I'm making is that there was balance in capability.

All characters in Champions had access to the same damage output, the damae defenses, the same everything, whatever the style of the character. The reason was equivalency. An Energy Blast that did 12d6 damage was equivalent to a punch that did 12d6 damage.

CoH doesn't allow for this. Different ATs have different levels of defense and offense. When you have this situation, it's more difficult (not saying impossible) to establish balance. That's all I'm saying.

And I repeat, you're looking at one instance the game cannot replicate and that could easily be excluded because the CoH game system ISN'T Champions.

I only cited Champions as a game that made it possible (possible does not equal CERTAIN) to create very different characters of equal capability.

Aett asserted it couldn't be done, I said it could, and provided Champions as an example where standardization created balance.

Go back and look at my long post (or woudl it be easier to repost it?). It describes something along these lines.

I disagree, because you're missing the point.

Champions allowed you to make two completely different characters that were equally effective, but in different ways.

12d6 damage was 12d6 damage, regardless of whether it was a super strong punch or an energy blast. You could make a character with high defenses, or high DCV, and have them be equally well protected.

Sure, a GM was required to prevent some aberrations, but the point I was making remains valid.

If everyone is the same, there's balance. That's the point of my long post about how I would have designed the game. Everyone is the same. The powers are all the same. The difference comes from concept and style (eg. animations, etc.).

That's why I say that everyone could be a Tankmage, and the game could still work. Of course, I don't believe a complete, rounded character has to be defined as a Tankmage.

(I remember making a Champions character for a laugh, who had the power to make other people intangble, 0 endurance, continuing, no concious control. The effect was that you make the Juggernaut intangible, and he can rage to his heart's content; he can't do any damage because he's not solid. Then you leave him that way. The GM nixed him, of course.)

Umm, what?

I was referring to being able to balance things while remaining comparatively true to the comic book inspiration. Champions DID do it. What's the problem?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the stop sign. I believe it CAN be done. Pen and Paper Champions did it. The secret is to allow all characters to do the same thing.

My heavy hitting strong man with 60 strength, 12d6 damage.
My Martial Artist with 20 strength, 12d6 damage (he would have martial arts manuevers and damage class bonuses for his skills).

What it amounts to is, if everyone is a tankmage, then the only issue is balancing the different types of tankmagi so they're all effectively the same, though they may achieve that differently.

[ QUOTE ]
...little more backup than "but comic book tankers..." which even the devs have noted is not a valid statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. We're playing a game based on comic books, so it seems to me that the expectation that the game should behave like the comic books is paramount. That said, Game Balance MUST be retained.

As I've noted before, I don't think Tankers are in a bad position. There are ATs FAR worse off than Tankers.

Well, it IS something we've been asking for for a very long time. Maybe it's something they started working on years ago. If that's the case, it might well be more than just tinting powers. From my perspective, though, that would be a godsend all on its own. I'm tired of my Tankers and Scrappers glowing like christmas trees.

[ QUOTE ]
Simple- play a Scrapper or Brute. Tankers aren't for everyone. They shine best in a team situation and you've stated time and time again you have no interest in that.

[/ QUOTE ]


Unfortunately this is often, even usually, not an option.

When making my own version of Thor, I probably would have liked to make him a Brute, but I couldn't, because that's a villain. With no other hero class capable of Super Strength, I'm forced to play a Tanker.

When creating Ultimo, who should be a very tough hero with blasts, I'm forced to play either a Blaster or Defender when I'd rather be playing a Tanker, or even a Scrapper.

Heh, I'm glad someone got it...

There is consistency in comics (though not always). Superman is invulnerable to bullets. It doesn't matter who is shooting the gun, bullets don't ever faze him. The same is true of many other characters and abilities.

What you say is true, though. If players could do the same damage as villains, it could trivialize things. The question to ask isn't how much more damage and health do we give the bad guys, it's WHY does this trivialize things? Once that question can be answered, then a solution can be found that doesn't trivialize US.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Super Strong characters CAN'T lift things. Invulnerable characters ARE being brought down by escaped prisoners with handguns or ancient romans with swords. Detective characters have NOTHING to detect as NPCs do all the thinking for you.

And, of course, the strong men of the game don't hit as hard as the strong men in the comics.

And that's the bottom line. It's all of this that takes away the fun.

I'm all for doing something to help Tankers, but the reality is there's a lot to fix, and I don't really believe it will ever happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Super Strong characters CAN lift things, but the options of things they can lift is very limited. If there were an environmental interaction system in place, groovy, but there isn't (yet).

And I'm not sure about your invulnerable characters, but mine are getting shot with hundreds of bullets in a matter of minutes and not only are they still standing, they aren't even breathing heavy. Over a dozen genetically enhanced monstrosity with otherwise lethal implements surgically grafted onto them trying to hack away at me, and they don't even break skin.

My characters find clues on a regular basis and determine what's important and what isn't, often to the result of finding a kidnapped victim or other evil hideout.

And my heroes don't hit as hard as the upper-tier heroes from comic books, because the levels of power displayed in those books would be absolutely disgusting from a gameplay perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]


Tankers can lift a patio stone. I can lift a patio stone (though I'll admit if I were to throw it, it sure wouldn't go very far).

Go to Brickstown at L30ish, and you'll find guys with handguns chewing you up. This after you've faced weapons many times more powerful. There's no consistency. Go to Cimerora, where you can delight to being minced by guys with sticks and normal swords.

You go and gather things the NPCs tell you to. They do the thinking, you're just the muscle. You could easily go through this whole game and never actually read anything.

Your characters don't hit as hard as ANYONE else. PCs are third stringers, at best.

Today, I made a MA mission. In it were several elite bosses representing my own characters (using the power sets of those characters). There were also several Elite Boss allies, also my own characters.

The typical battle went like this:

I attack! I do 40 damage (perhaps 1% of his health) with my War Mace! Canadian Shield attacks back with Punch, doing 400 damage (which is about a quarter of my health). Stalwart Star, my ally, attacks, doing 578 damage. I attack again, doing 28 damage. Canadian Shield KO Blows me for 748 damage. I retreat and watch the actual superheroes fight, since I'm less than nothing.

This is what's depressing. You read the comics, and you see the heroes fighting the villains, trading mighty blow for mighty blow. In CoH, the heroes (us) are nothing compared to them. Seeing this over and over is disheartening, and takes away the fun.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm genuinely sorry.

If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.

Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.



.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"

[/ QUOTE ]


Unfortunately, your sarcasm illuminates a bitter fact.

Very often, I go to Chapters and browse the graphic novels and old comic compilations (such as Essential Avengers, depicting the first several issues of that series). Reading these gets me into the comic book frame and I come to CoH, all excited to have my own adventures.

Generally, after about 15 minutes of play, it stops being fun. Why does the excitement and fun go away?

Because the game doesn't feel like the comics. Yes, it's a subjective thing, but it's brought on by objective truths. Super Strong characters CAN'T lift things. Invulnerable characters ARE being brought down by escaped prisoners with handguns or ancient romans with swords. Detective characters have NOTHING to detect as NPCs do all the thinking for you.

And, of course, the strong men of the game don't hit as hard as the strong men in the comics.

And that's the bottom line. It's all of this that takes away the fun.

I'm all for doing something to help Tankers, but the reality is there's a lot to fix, and I don't really believe it will ever happen.

A while ago, I posted a possible alternative Super Strength set. It contained only a couple of attacks, hard hitting and long recharge.

People will say, but people don't want to stand around doing nothing! I say, you're right. It's frustrating not being able to do anything while the enemy is taking you apart (part of why holds and endurance issues are so reviled), which is why the rest of the set did other things with that great strength.

For example, I suggested the ability to tear a huge chunk of ground up and use it as a shield (mimicing PFF). I suggested a long backand swat that sent foes flying for little damage. You could easily provide Tankers with Super Strong crowd control abilities that aren't precisely attacks to fill in the recharge times on harder hitting, slower attacks.

Of course, that would mean rewriting the whole set, and they're not about to do that.

MMMyeeahhh.... I don't buy that answer either, or Statesman and every other "Tanker" NPC wouldn't be doing 10 times as much damage as ours do. It always seemed to me that they preferred to ram the AT-group-MMO-Thing down our throats.

That said, I totally agree with your assessment, though I'd have based it on power set rather than AT. That is, Super Strength would be slow, but heavy hitting, Martial Arts would be fast, but not as powerful per blow.

Actually, it occurs to me (referring to my long post about "how I'd do it") that a good way to increase damage output without actually needing a mechanic like Defiance or Fury would be to increase attack rate (thus, a Tanker with Super Strength would attack more slowly than a Scrapper with Super Strength, thereby allowing the Scrapper to do more damage).

Hm.

Oh, I have considered, but the fact is the changes I'd make are so sweeping, they'd never agree to make them.

I really just put it there to illustrate how the classes could have been comparably the same, yet distinct in groups, all equally capable of soloing, all able to use any powers they want.

That would have made this whole thread moot!

Heh, probably true, but I thought in the context of this thread, someone might have looked at it. Ok well.

Wow, I made that big long post, and not one comment?

It seems to me that the original conception was wrong. All characters should do the same damage, except that class intended to do damage in groups.

I'll explain briefly how I might have done it.

I would have started by designing the power sets so they were all roughly the same. There would be two types of sets, offense and defense. Anything that does damage is offense, anything that mitigates damage would be defense.

Each offensive set would be arranged the same basic way, with the same basic attacks. The only significant differences would have been the special effects (eg. knockback, slow, debuff, etc.), and the presence of one special power unique to that set (for flavour). Ranged attacks would do less damage than melee attacks because of the inherent advantages of being at range. Melee sets would have at least one ranged attack consistent with the nature of the set. There would be combined sets (like the Assault sets of Dominators), but they would be less powerful in general to compensate for the increased versatility.

Defensive sets would be similar, in that they would all mitigate damage to the same degree, although usually by different means. Note that Buffs, Controls and Debuffs would all be considered defenses. Note that healing is a buff. Armors are buffs that affect only the user (eg. Temporary Invulnerability). Buffs that affect others (in ADDITION to the user) would be less powerful than those that affect only the user.

Note that all the power sets would be available to all characters! If they're all balanced, there should be no issues.

Once all the powers are set and balanced against one another, we would look to the character.

I would begin from a "Prototype." This character would not have any "Archetype" powers or attributes. He would be the starting point for all the ATs. The point of ATs would be to encourage players to team by making them particularly good at something that helps teams, but it should also be something of use to the character solo, and it would be distinctive to the AT. This would be achieved by Inherent powers.


Tankers - Their point is to get aggro and survive it so others don't have to take the damage. To accomplish this, we give them the Gauntlet aggro aura. However, since this is as much a drawback as an advantage, and since it doesn't help them solo, we add a large bonus to health. Note that this does not increase his defenses, and this does not decrease his damage.

Scrappers - Their point is to do damage. Thus, we give them something similar to Defiance or Fury, to enhance their damage output. Since this is useful to teams and also solo, this is enough. Note that this does not increase his defenses, they would be the same as the Tanker's. He wouldn't have as much health, though.

Defenders - Their point is to buff. Thus, they would have an increased effect from their buffs. For example, a Tanker with Temporary Invulnerability might get 30% resistance from this type of buff, while a Defender might get 50% from the same buff. Similarly, if a Scrapper had a Dispersion Bubble, it might provide 10% Defense, while the same power in a Defender's hands would generate 15%.
Note that these numbers are for illustration only.

Controllers - Their purpose is to debuff. Controls would be a debuff, as they would not generally be binary in nature. They would be accumulate until the target was held. The Controller's inherent would be increased effect from debuffs, similar to the Defender's inherent.

Commander - This is the only class different from the others. Like the Mastermind, his focus is on pets. In all honesty, I haven't considered how I'd do this to keep it balanced.


That's right, there's no Blasters. You would make a Scrapper instead, but take ranged attacks, if that's your preference.

Every character would be constructed by taking two power sets, one offense and one defense. You would be able to take anything you wanted, so you could make a Tanker with Super Strength and Force Fields, or Super Reflexes and Martial Arts.

Tankers and Defenders are similar, you may say. I say, yes, they are. A Tanker and a Defender, each with Super Strength and Invulnerability, would perform similarly. The Tanker would have more health, but his defenses would be lower. The difference would be how they perform in a team. The Tanker would be more desirable because he can control aggro via his inherent.

Yes, you could gimp yourself by making a Controller with no debuffs, for example, but this would be a choice up to the player. Choice always wins over forcing people to do things.


Anyhow, this is rough, but this is how I'd have done it. More or less.

In my mind, that's what Rage and Build Up was for. Perhaps what would be better is a modification of those specific powers?

Ok, I didn't mean to stir up that hornet's nest.

OBVIOUSLY, AVs are group content. The point I was making is that in the comics the Tanker-types tend to go toe to toe with the big guns. That doesn't mean standing there for eternity unable to affect them, it means having the theoretical hope of eventually defeating them. My comments were aimed at the goal of emulating this to some better degree than is presently the case.

However, you may not have noticed that I put the word PROBLEM in quotes. I did that specifically because it's NOT a problem that people can't solo AVs. They're not supposed to be able to. AVs are designed as group content. That SOME builds can do it, however, points to an imbalance. If one player playing one class can do it, it should be possible for any player, playing any class, to do so.

Possibly, but the damage would have to be adjusted upwards a bit so the damage done in an "average" spawn (solo) would be roughly where it is now. I'm not sure what the numbers would be, and I'm frankly not inclined to carry the idea on and do the crunching if there's no interest in the idea in principle.

I'm unclear, JB, did you mean you liked my budding idea?