Ultimo_

I enjoy the raids, as it creates a sense of accomplishing something that the game lacks otherwise. I mean, I can stand on a corner and beat the liveing snot out of thousands of Hellions or Council, and it makes no impact on them whatsoever. Even so, I think the raids could and should be reviewed.

The gist is that the Rikti should have OBJECTIVES. That is, they're invading, so what are they trying to accomplish?

I'd do it like this.

First, when the raid is first announced, three targets would spawn in each zone. They might be different from zone to zone, but the idea is that the Rikti are going to attempt to destroy these targets. I'll use Atlas Park as an example.

The sirens sound, and a military bunker spawns at City Hall. A couple of minutes later, the ships start flying in, dropping bombs. At the same time, ground troops will start entering from the gates. Both the ships and troops start moving toward the objectives. It will now be up to the heroes to stop them from destroying the objectives.

Note that this would require making the ships MUCH more assailable. No stronger than Elite Bosses, it would need to be possible (though difficult) for a solo hero to destroy one. They should move around the speed of unslotted hover. Their beam weapons should be much less powerful but the bombs should do actual DAMAGE, and lots of it.

If the heroes stop the Rikti, the raid ends. If they fail, and the three objectives are destroyed, Atlas becomes flagged as a war zone, and Rikti troops will begin beaming in as they do now.

When this happens, the Rikti will move into one of the adjacent zones (eg. Steel Canyon) and a new battle with three objectives will begin THERE. This move from zone to zone will continue until the Rikti are stopped. Zones "captured" byt he Rikti would remain in warzone mode until the Rikti are stopped.


Signature heroes in the zones should become active and participate in the fighting. For example, when Atlas Park is attacked, Ms. Liberty would help the fighting if Rikti troops come in range of her.


If the entire city is captured, I'm not sure what to do. It would be highly unlikely, but you never know.


What do you think?

I made an arc (no longer published) in which there were battles with numerous AVs representing various mythological gods (Zeus, in particular, is brutally tough to beat). On the upside, it's possible to get some of the AVs in the arc fighting each other, thereby making YOUR job easier.

The problem with a lot of AV stories is the lack of a story. It's basically just, "here's an AV, go beat him up."

Initially, yes. However, it's been suggested that debuffing Defenders are in fine shape (I'm still not 100% sure I agree, but whatever). I've been shown several videos of Defenders soloing AVs and such. In every case, they're debuffers, such as Rad or Storm.

Debuffs have the effect of increasing the effectiveness of the Defender's damage or decreasing the enemies' damage (thereby making the Defender's damage and defense better).

The buffing sets are largely unable to help themselves, however.

This being the case, I altered my inital premise, and I'm now trying to come up with an idea that remedies this apparent diiscrepancy without disbalancing all else.

Ah, I see. Not knowing something, and wanting to consider what effects an idea might have before posting it is sufficient personal affront to you to warrant sarcasm.

Forgive me for wanting to think first.

Alright. I'm finished posting here. People have decided the time has come to stop discussing and instead have decided it's better to be snide and sarcastic, and even insulting.

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Thank you for blessing us with your wisdom

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if you look at it holistically (which I doubt you do simply because you're incapable of realizing beyond a first glance that it could be balanced)

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Not that you've had anything new to contribute to this discussion since it began. You've simply rehashed the same lopsided comparisons over and over again in an attempt to make your point via persistence rather than through substance.

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Sarcastic, insulting and snide. You could have made your points in a civilized manner.

I came to the thread with a premise, and when that premise was shown to be false, I reevaluated and offered another possible explanation for my observations. That IS contributing something new.

Equal and equivalent are not the same thing.

As I explained, Equal would mean they're the same. Equivalent means they're different in substance, but equivalent overall. An example is the difference between Blaster and Tankers. Blasters have good damage, and low defense, Tankers have low(ish) damage and high defense. They're not EQUAL, because they're different, but they are EQUIVALENT because they are both able to operate to the same level of effect.


Boxing was necessary to get Tough. Air Superiority was taken because it's just too useful. I usually just set it to autofire and it knocks down anyone that gets too close. That's damage AND mitigation.

Tough and Weave provide adequate defense after SOs. He won't be a Tank, but he'll be MUCH better off. In reality, it's Weave I was after. The Defense bonus, coupled with Dispersion Bubble makes for some decent defense.


In any case, I'm done here. If you refrain from further personal slurs, I'll not have to post again.

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Also, it's something that is only the beginning of an idea. I've not considered how to make it balanced and viable yet.

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It's lovely to see that you have such high regard for yourself

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I don't understand, have I said or done something to you personally that warrants such a snide comment?

I don't mean to skip anyone, but I'm not going to comment at length here. If I skip you, I apologize.

First, CDN_Guardian, you can be dismissive if you like, but I don't know why you're bothering if you're not going to read the points I've brought up.

I agree, Tankmagery is to be avoided. However, I don't see allowing Defenders to buff themselves in deficient sets like Force Fields is going to create that. There's no damage buff in that set, so his damage output remains very low. It may be argued that his defense is higher than other Defender sets, however. In this case, I would suggest that this is appropriate since the Force Field set has no way to increase damage. It's only a matter of finding a balance point.

I also agree, I'm not the sole arbiter of fun. That's why I've avoided addressing that, and instead have concerned myself with balance/parity.


I never brought up the dev post about Defenders being balanced, someone else brought it up to me, and I commented to avoid the need for that being further belaboured. I made no Straw Man, it's a combination that CAN exist in the game, and so needs to be comparable to other builds. As I mentioned, it's actually got BETTER defenses than most other FF Defenders.


If I ignored something someone said, I didn't mean to. I've never said that everything should be equal, only that they should be equivalent. This is not the same thing. It means that all characters should be able to complete the same tasks, regardless of powers or AT, even if it's accomplished by different means.


When I originally build the character, I had Force Bolt. I found it far too draining on endurance to be a viable defense, and it cut badly into potential offense. I've skipped Detention Bubble, but it's of limited value, and can be intensely annoying. It is true it would help defense though.

Again, though, the pool powers are not taking away from my defenses, they're actually making them STRONGER. If I left them out, I'd have 0% resistance instead of 15% (21% now I'm L23).


A Scrapper benefits from being on a team just as much as a Defender does. They bring different things to the team, but they each benefit equally.


It seems obvious that the AT, or at least this set, DOES NOT excel in every area of the game. The numbers alone suggest that.


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This part seems the weakest part of your argument. The Defender is expected to overcome challenges related to threats incoming to teammates and allies, (and to a lesser degree himself). The Scrapper is expected to overcome challenges more related to single enemies having higher than normal indefeatability. This interpretation isn't sophistry.

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I'll address this more directly. The Defender is expected to overcome challenges to teammates, as you say, but so is every other AT. The Defender must ALSO be expected to overcome solo challenges, since all the other ATs can do so.

Scrappers bring critical hits to teams, but this also benfits them. Blaster bring damage to teams, but this also benefits them. Tankers bring aggro management to teams, and the ability to survive this feat is useful to them solo, and Controllers bring crowd control to teams, which is also useful to them solo.

Defenders bring buffs and debuffs, but only the debuffs are useful to the solo Defender. The buffing Defender has nothing (or very little, at least) for soloing.


My build may indeed be unusual, but the numbers don't lie. He has less than half the health and damage output and much, much less defense than the Scrapper, and this build actually has more defenses than some others might.



As I've said, I've not seen it, but I'm willing to concede that not all Defenders have this sort of problem. It seems to be the buffing sets that suffer because they don't benefit from their own powers, unlike the debuffing sets.

Thus, I'm now considering ways of adjusting the buffing sets in a way that will allow them to be used by the Defender (eg. Force Fielders would be able to bubble themselves).

Feel free to discuss further, but until I have something new to contribute, I'll likely not post much more.

The point I'm making is that it's the buffing Defenders that need a boost. Buffing the class a a whole will buff characters that don't need a buff.

The problem with that idea is that is reduces the desire to team. Further, it's been suggested that debuffing Defenders are in good shape, and have no need for a defense boost.

No, it wasn't. It's something that only just came up recently.

Also, it's something that is only the beginning of an idea. I've not considered how to make it balanced and viable yet.

What I mean is that Defenders with debuffing powers benefit from their entire power set. That is, the debuffs are beneficial to the team, but ALSO to the solo Defender.

Buffs, such as Force Fields, are no use to the Defender, only his team. I'm trying to come up with a proposal that will allow him to buff himself (whether it be bubbles, Clear Mind, O2, or what have you).

Some interesting ideas there. One thing that's come to light in another thread I'm involved in is that Defender buffs are additive, and don't diminish with multiple applications (as happens with enhancements, for example).

Something I'd like to see considered is enabling buffing sets to buff themselves. I'm thinking this might require making a change so the buffs suffer diminishing returns...

Just thinking out loud, I've not thought it through much and it's late...

First, let me say a couple of things. This thread is not about me personally, and insults and denigration will not be tolerated. I have already notified the moderators, accusing someone of trolling is against the forum rules.

Now, I do appreciate the constructive comments and discussion. I'll try not to miss anyone's comments.

Twilightphoenix:

An interesting build. Nifty demo. I'll point out, however, that the character has only 10-12% Defense, no resistance and half the damage output of the Scrapper without Criticals.
As I say, mine is something of a concept build, being an Iron Man homage, so the need for some significant melee ability had to be considered. It may not be optimal, but I consider it a flaw in the class if you have to build one specific way to be viable.

As I say, though, and interesting demonstration.


PC_Guy

Storm and Sonic, both of which debuff, and fighting at high level. I've already said that debuff sets seem to do fairly well, and that the problem exists more significantly at lower level.


Uberguy

I'm well intentioned, and I've some expertise with certain ATs and power sets, but there are some that I've just never played even after all these years. I've not really ever played Defense oriented sets because Defense seems to me to be all but worthless. However, I'm told that changes at higher level, so I thought to give it a better chance.

I am very concerned about balance. I can't tell you why, but finding an imbalance in a system, whether it be a game, a law an insurance company or whatever, just grates on me. In this case, it's simply like this: Both characters have to be able to accomplish the same things in the game, but one is largely unable to to it - there's a disparity between the ATs (at least, that I'm seeing). I just want to see a more level playing field.

I am strongly opinionated, and I'm somewhat stubborn, but I'm not inflexible, as I've already shown. More than enough evidence has been shown that debuffing sets perform well, so I've conceded that point and focused on the buffing sets.

But enough about me.


G_Tanker

As I said, I wasn't aware that buffs and debuffs were additive. I thought they got weaker with additional applications. Comes from not generally using them.

Defenders bring a lot to a team, that's true. I've never said otherwise. The problem is that they're hampered solo (at least, buffing sets are), at lower level. It may improve at higher level, I'll have to wait and see.

My posts are not pointless. I think we've had some good discussion, and I've learned a thing or two already. I'm not looking for a solo powerhouse. I'm looking for a more level playing field. It's as I said before, if the Defender is going to pay the price of having lower defense and lower offense, he has to get some benefit in return. The benfit of making someone else's game more fun is hardly adequate, at least to me.

My build is hardly optimized, but even the BEST I could get at L22 would be only 10-12% Defense and 15% resistance (which is what I have). That's the MOST defense I can get at that level. I suppose I could have worked Weave in there by then too, but that would sacrifice Fitness. Those defenses are made even less meaningful by the fact that I have less than HALF the health of the Scrapper. Now, I'm not saying it should be EQUAL, but I should be somewhere closer than that.


Catwhoorg

So, it's ok for other players to have those buffs, but not the Defender?


Umbral

Again, I'm not saying Defenders should be able to solo as well as Scrappers. My Scrapper walks through those missions with ease. My Blaster (lower level) walks through with ease, not as easy as the Scrapper, but he can handle it. My Tanker walks through it with ease. He takes longer, but he gets there reliably. My Controller has NO trouble at all until he hits the bosses, and then he dies because he can't control them. The Defender is constantly on the run unless he's eating handfuls of inspirations. He's the only one that has so much trouble. That's why I have to wonder about the balance of the AT; because this character seems not to be able to do the same thing all the others can do.

I expect him to be able to solo capably. Not as well as the Scrapper, not as fast as the Blaster, and perhaps not as safely as the Tanker. As it is, he doesn't even come close. I'm just looking for it to be a bit more even.


SStingray

A good post, well thought out. Thanks.
As I say, if the debuffing sets and damage boosting sets are working well, then it's the defense sets that need looking at. As I said before, perhaps the solution is to allow self-buffing? Certainly, it might require some rebalancing, but it would help solo Defenders.

(this also applies to Panzerwaffen's post)

Making the class weak solo because he can help other people more smacks of bad design to me. As I said before, why would I want to play if my only purpose is to make someone else's game more fun? I want to have fun too. Every other AT brings something to teams, and none of them suffer solo as a result of that.

By diminishing returns, I mean the more of something you have the less benefit you get. That is, full effect from the first buff (enhancement, whatever), then less from the next and so on. I thought that was how it worked (made sense to me...), but I guess not.

Silveroach is a rad/sonic Defender. Those are both debuffing sets. Silverican is a Corruptor, and I really haven't played them much. It appears to be Fire/Traps. Traps has many powers that benefit the Corruptor. In other words, these are power sets that the Defender benefits from, which we've already established are not as disadvantaged (if at all).

Defenders that debuff their foes apparently do fine. I'm not sure I agree that they're fine, but they certainly do better than the alternative, Defenders that buff. Defenders that buff generally can't benefit from their own buffs. That seems to me to be a problem, if not THE problem.

Pwnbringer's response is spurious at best.
The thread has been remarkably civil and, I think, productive. I hope we can refrain from any further pointless posts.


Anyhow, bedtime. I'll check back tomorrow as I get the chance.

So, Defender buffs don't have diminishing returns? I was under that impression, everything else in the game seems to work that way.

Most of those pool powers are requisites for future powers. The only one that I could displace would be either Air Superiority (far too useful to leave out) or Hover (also extremely useful for a squishy).

Stamina, essentially a required power, requires Health and Hurdle.
Weave and Tough are required for personal defense, since my own powers don't provide much, and that requires Boxing.

Fly is a travel power. While I could theoretically leave it out, I would then be relegated to running.

In any case, the ONLY power that provides me with defense and comes from my Primary is Dispersion Bubble, and it's pretty much useless until at least SOs (except for status protection). In other words, the character is actually well defended all things considered.

My experience of the early game is that Blasters are in good shape, Tankers are a little weak, but capable, Controllers are gods, Scrappers are capable, but have endurance issues, and Defenders have little going for them.

I don't know of any GM that can be soloed. If it's not that difficult, pray, illuminate us.

I've only ever seen Scrappers and Tankers stomping anything in this game. Certainly not Defenders. Saying it doesn't make it so. If you have something to back that up, I'd like to see it (note that I provided numbers directly from the combat log to support my claim).

Your example is of a team. The Scrapper took on a spawn intended for several heroes. When the team was there, they supported each other. None of this is in question.

If the Defender is able to make his team ridiculously strong, that's one argument. That he can't make himself even a fraction as strong is the problem.

I'm not feeling any sense of entitlement. I'm feeling there's a disparity between the ATs, or at least between power sets.


I think I'm willing to say that Defenders with debuff sets are able to provide adequate defense for themselves. However, even they suffer from unnecessarily low health. As for the buffing sets, they are operating at a severe disadvantage. If I could have used my bubbles on myself, I wouldn't have needed to take Tough and Weave. Perhaps this is the answer.

What would people say to increasing Defender health somewhat, then allowing Defender buffs to be used by the Defender himself, though subject to diminishing returns?

I'm not sure what you mean by "force multiplier".

My character IS built to solo. I did skip the team stuff. I will admit, and readily, that this is a bit of a concept build (I'll post it below), but the fact remains that he can neither do damage nor avoid damage, and that is what this game boils down to.

If an Emp/Nrg is soloing missions, he's doing it with barely more than one power set, since Emp is largely useless to the Defender himself.

ITF and RWZ are late-game, and I've already said that the defensive numbers for this character are decent in the late game. The problem exists largely at all earlier levels.

I'd love to know what Ginat Monster you're soloing. I've never seen ANY character of any class solo a GM. I'm not calling shenanigans, but it IS very hard to believe, and if true hardly stands for typical behaviour.

If you're doing 160+ damage, what level are you doing it at? What are other classes able to do at that level? How much more defense do they have? How much more health?


My problem is that I'm seeking parity.

That is, if we start from the same starting point, all the classes should be the same. From there Blaster get more offense but pay with less defense. Tankers get more defense, but pay with less offense. Scrappers, having a relative balance are more or less the standard. Controllers have more defense, and pay by having less health. Defenders have less offense, less defense (though this is being debated here) and less health. If we allow that their defense is higher, it's been paid for, either by lower offense OR lower health. As it is, BOTH conditions exist.

Again, however, I'm not seeing the high defense that people are claiming. As I've commented, maybe the issue exists in the specific power sets, but I'm unconvinced of this. Having played a Storm Defender to appreciable level, I have to say he feels VERY squishy at the best of times.

This is what I mean. If Defenders are to be squishy, they have to have a strength to compensate. Being able to buff a team is not compensation, because it's only a part-time boon.

Anyhow, here's the build.
I should mention, I've swapped out Force Bolt for Power Blast, and reslotted it.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Warpath: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(5), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(7)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(13)
Level 6: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(13), Flight-I(15)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(15), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(46)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(23), Flight-I(23)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(29), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(31), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(34), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 26: Power Burst -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(34), Acc-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(50)
Level 28: Repulsion Field -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Repulsion Bomb -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(40), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42)
Level 38: Nova -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(42), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46)
Level 47: Total Focus -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance

Your Defender, whatever his power sets, will do less damage than any other class. I call that low offense. As for having low defense, I have already said that it does depend to some degree on the power set in question. I've already said that debuffing sets are better off in this regard. I described the defenses my character had. Dispersion Bubble and Tough. That's as much as I could get at that point. Those powers provide decidedly minimal defenses, so I call that low. Further, the character has less than HALF the health of the Scrapper, lower than anyone except Controllers. I call that low defense as a cumulative effect.

What power set did you use, and at what level, to debuff them through the floor?

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That is like me saying that Blasters are out of balance with Tankers because Blasters can't hold aggro.

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No, it's not like that at all. I'm speaking in terms of doing and surviving damage. Holding aggro has nothing to do with that.

My inclination is to buff Defender damage to close to default Scrapper levels, but perhaps the focus should be put on the sets that are unable to be useful to the Defender.

As I say, debuff sets like Dark, Ice or Rad are useful to the Defender whether or not he's in a team. Power sets like Emp or FF are of little use solo (and of limited use on teams, since he still can't use them for his own benefit), so perhaps the solution to this is to make these sets useful to the Defender when he's solo.

Again, I'm looking for equivalence, not equality. If you're contending that Defender offense is fine because they're high defense, then they should ALL have that level of defense. Personally, I'm not seeing that level of defense. However, according to Mids, by late level, I'm anticipating over 23% Defense and 71% Resistance to Smashing and Lethal. That does include the use of Tough, Weave and Temporary Invulnerability.



I don't have Power Burst, it's true. That's why I compared Power Blast and Storm Kick. Power Burst would have compared to Crane Kick. I expect it would still do less than half the damage of the Scrapper power.

However, I disagree with the other statement. If the Defender is going to have less offense, he should be able to act more safely than the Scrapper. Like the Tanker, if it's going to take longer to defeat a foe, you need to have the defenses to allow you to take that time.

I'm just not seeing that level of defense, frankly.

I've been playing this FF/EB character recently, but I've also played a Storm/Elec and a Rad/Rad, each to at least L22 (the stormie is L38), so I'm not looking only at one example. It's just the one that seems most noticiable. I shudder to think how I'd be faring if I was using Elec instead of Nrg.


Of course, all this is made worse by the fact that it takes the Defender two to three times as much endurance to complete the same tasks as the Scrapper, but I'll not get into that in this thread.

It's not my opinion that Defenders have low offense and low defense. They do. It is a fact.

Now, as I said, there are some combinations that work pretty well. Storm and Dark both debuff the target, an effect that benefits the Defnder as much as any teammates he has. That is why it works fairly well. Further, Hurricane is considered in some quarters to be among the most powerful effects in the game, and has been repeatedly nerfed. Either way, try fighting foes outdoors. See how long you last in a Rikti raid. Hurricane is only useful if foes choose to stay at arm's reach. Kinetics and Ice are also debuff sets. This is all as I mentioned in my last post.


I didn't say scrappers don't benefit from teams, just that they benefit as much as anyone else. As for Scrapper contribution to teams, I'd say it's the ability to hurt Bosses more than other classes, by virtue of their Critical Hits, but that's really another thread.


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Scrappers > defenders at self-buffing

Defender > scrappers at buffing the entire team and debuffing opponents.

So ... what, precisely, is the problem?


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If all else was equal, there might not be a problem. However, all else is NOT equal. Defenders have HALF the health of Scrappers AND do less than HALF the damage. As for debuffing, that remains to be seen. Scrappers with Darkness powers can do a pretty impressive job debuffing, and that's just one example. Further still, Defenders being better at buffing the team does nothing for him when he has no team. It's not a valid comparison.

Again, the rate of soloing isn't even the issue. It's that the Scrapper can overcome challenges that the Defender CANNOT overcome without the use of extraordinary measures.

I mean, in the final analysis, the game comes down to doing and surviving damage. There needs to be a balance between these extremes. As I described in my previous post, the other ATs have some semblance of balance in this regard, while Defenders in general do not.

True, some power sets fare better than others, but these sets are those in which the Defender benefits from his powers, such as Rad or Dark (Debuffs). The sets with buffs, such as FF, are hampered by the fact that they can't use their powers on themselves. Even so, they still have lower offense and defense than anyone else.

And yet, solo performance is necessary to all the ATs and all the power sets. The fact remains that Defenders have low values in all areas.

Blasters have high damage, but low defense.
Tankers have lower damage, but are compensated with higher defense.
Scrappers have a balance of the two, having decent to good offense AND defense.
Controllers have high defense by virtue of their controls, and can have decent offense too, but these benefits are resistable, and they have low health to compensate for the reliablitiy of their defense and offense.

These ATs all have this regardless of whether they're solo or grouped.

Defenders have low defense AND low offense. That's a fact, regardless of what power sets are being used.

Now, I'm not saying they should have their abilities buffed extravagantly. I'm saying they need some help. Personally, I'd say a damage buff is in order, but that's my own preference. Whatever help they get, they need something.

Clouded:

I'd love to post where the devs said that, but I've never seen it. I'm only reporting what others have told me when I've brought this up in the past.

Iceboxer:

Yes, I'm comparing them because they both are expected to solo, and both are expected to overcome the same challenges. I'm not saying the Defender should be as good at it, but the discrepancy is extraordinarily large. He's simply not able to accomplish the same things.

As an example, the first mission in the arc I mentioned pits the hero against Catburglar, a NPC with Clas and Ninjitsu. The Scrapper defeats that foe with no need for inspirations, while the Defender was unable to do it, regardless of inspirations. Even using the Nemesis Staff was insufficient (note that the staff does around double the damage of the Power Blast...). The Scrapper can face 12 soldiers at once with some difficulty. The Defender is hard pressed by three.

Putting them both on the same teams reveals little. Grouped with 8 other players, they each rely on the group for support. The difference is that the Scrapper doesn't need the support of a group. It's just useful.

I'm told the Devs have described the Defender as the best balanced AT. I'm forced to wonder at this. Consider the following.


I took my Defender and my Scrapper through the SAME mission, my AE World War Two arc. Both characters are L22 and fully slotted with SOs. Their attacks are all similarly slotted (1 acc, 1 end, 3 damage). The main foes are German Soldiers with 200.0 health.

The Scrapper (MA/Shield) walks easily through the missions. The Defender (FF/EB) is constantly in desperate condition. Why?

The Defender has 477.9 health.
He has Tough, which provides 15% resistance to smashing and lethal, and Dispersion Bubble for 10% Defense.
His basic attack is Power Blast, which does 45.31 damage.
His best shot is the same Power Blast, for 45.31 damage.

The Scrapper has 752.9 health.
He has the basic Shield toggles, plus Tough. His resistance is around 11.25%, and his defense around 13.84%.
His basic attack, Storm Kick, does 95.45 damage.
His best shot, Crane Kick, does 137.07 damage.
In each case, this doesn't even consider the effect of Critical Hits.


It seems pretty plain that the Scrapper has VASTLY more health, more defense and more offense than the Defender. The Defender is expected to overcome the same challenges as the Scrapper, yet he is significantly hindered by his lesser abilities.

This puzzles me, because the usual pattern is to compensate for lack of offense with increased defense, or vice versa. The Defender has lesser defense AND lesser offense, with no benefit to himself.

Now, the obvious argument will be that the Defender is "intended" for team play, but that is sophistry at best. ALL characters are intended for team play, yet only the Defender suffers for this.

I've said it before, and I say it again. Defenders need a boost in damage output or defense. It has to be one or the other. They can't continue to be the second class heroes they are at present.

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wow just saw something surprising and awesome. went to atlas and for the first time in a long while i actually saw a congregation of people under the atlas statue. saw frantic messaging about STF runs forming and masters forming and kraken teams. out of curiosity i went into AE and there was just a few players. glad to see a little light in this tunnel we are in. makes me feel all squishy inside

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This stuff happens on Infinity every day, so I dont see the tunnel at all.

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Actually, no, it doesn't. I've been on Infinity for hours at a time every day since I becamer unemployed (months now), and it's RARE to see groups under Atlas. You do see a few people at Ms. Liberty periodically (leveling up, no doubt).

In four hours today, as an example, only one person stood under Atlas for more than 2 seconds. ME.

(In case you're wondering why I was there for a long period like that doing nothing, I was housecleaning while logged on)

Why would they take out the generator? It's the only "power source" item in the list and as such was easily the most useful of the destructible items.

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I've tried not to comment on the farm/AE business overmuch, but I think I'll do so now.

The AE has tremendous potential. I have written several arcs (and will continue to do so) that I think are pretty neat because they tell actual stories. However, they rarely get played. I've tried broadcasting for a team with the caveat that it's not to farm, and no one ever joins. I've tried selecting people, but 90% of them refuse, or are already on a team, usually a farm.


The AE system has spawned the farming craze. My god, there were recently missions in which the foes DON'T even fight back (mitochondria, anyone?)! Anyone who thinks this hsan't affected the rest of the game is deluding themselves.

It IS harder to get teams together. It's still possible, but it's much more difficult. Having 70 people standing around in the AE building in Atlas DOES cause serious lag.

I don't know what the solution is, but it seems pretty darn obvious to me that there is a problem, and anyone who can't see it is blind.

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or, y;now, had no problem finding teams because they dont associate with broadcast team seekers and just form groups out of their global channels.

I've never once had an issue forming a team at any time of day.

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Did you notice the part of my other post that I've highlighted for you? Finding groups IS harder than it used to be. BUILDING groups IS harder than it used to be. You can argue about the reason for this, but it seems pretty obvious it's because the AE has taken people out of the regular game.