Ultimo_

Interestingly, he didn't say anything I hadn't already said (and I didn't say anything others haven't already said).

I honsetly don't understand the resistance to any suggestion that Defenders get a little love.

I left out Fulcrum Shift on purpose, because like many Tier 9 powers, it's not a normal part of the character's usage. We don't consider Unstoppable, for example, when talking about Tanker mitigation.

I thought I mentioned Enervating Field.
I missed Transfusion. Yes, it's a small heal, but it helps a little.

Yes, I call this SOME. Decent mitigation or decent damage is not available to all Defenders, so that means it's only available to SOME Defenders. The only question is, what's decent?

Some sets are designed to improve damage, and they have less mitigation. This is as it should be. The problem is that the amount of damage is still too low (in general).

Some sets are designed to provide survivability (mitigation) at the expense of damage. The problem here is that the mitigation provided is usually too low to let the Defender survive long enough to fight most foes with their minimal damage.

Worst of all, sets that buff instead of debuff can't use many of their powers on themselves, rendering them weaker than ANYONE. It's my feeling that this is where the Defenders suffer the greatest disparity. I'd like to see things improved for all Defenders, but for buffing sets in particular, as they are the most disadvantaged.

I'll be responding to several people, but I'll start with Talen.

Take your own advice and read what's said. I didn't say Defenders can't solo. I didn't say they can't solo as well as Scrappers (specifically). I said they solo with greater difficulty than anyone else.


Luminara:

It's not only about Empaths, and it's not about people skipping large chunks of their power sets. I've seen it said over and over in thread after thread by poster after poster. Defenders don't solo as well as any other class. It's said over and over that they're "not supposed to," that "they're a support class." It's not just disgruntled Blasters. I'm not making stuff up, any brief browse of the Defender forum will show that this is true.

You're simply being dismissive, declaring that anything that you disagree with isn't a "legitimate, realistic" concern.

Attacking me isn't going to strengthen your position. I'm not about to go looking for threads, there are many to choose from, find them yourself.

SOME have damage improvement tools. Those that do (excepting Sonic, since that's apparently broken to some degree) STILL have lower damage than anyone else.

Kinetics can boost damage by 25% (making the effective damage 0.65+25%=0.77, which is better, but still lower than anyone else).
Radiation has multiple debuffs to reduce enemy defense, making them easier to hit. With accuracy a limited problem, this is actually a limited benefit, and doesn't actually increase damage output much.
Trick Arrow has a couple of debuffs to Defense and a couple to Resistance, to the tune of around 25%. Assuming a foe has resistance to debuff, this is a boost comparable to what Kinetics provides.

SOME have access to defensive tools, but these tools are either debuffs, which provide less mitigation than anyone else has, or they're buffs, which the Defender can't generally use on himself. Coupled with less health, this is less defense than anyone.

Cold Dom has several attack rate slows, which helps survivability over the long haul, but is of limited value against groups of foes or foes with strong single attacks. IT has Benumb, which reduces incoming damage by 62%, which is quite good, actually, but it's a single target power with a long cooldown. Outside of that, there's Arctic Fog, which provides 7% Defense and 20% Resistance. 7% is nothing, and 20% is less than TOUGH provides.

Dark has a variety of powers reducing enemy accuracy and damage. It also has a couple of Fear-type holds. As a result, it actually provides fairly decent defense. However, if the foe DOES hit, the Dark Defender has only 7% Defense and 31% Resistance. Darkest night reduces enemy damage by a further 37%.

Empathy has a self heal, and two auras, one for endurance and one for health. It has no other powers that help the Defender. Of course, the Regen Aura is pretty strong. Unfortunately, having very low health means the Defender cannot withstand damage long enough for the regeneration to help much. This is helped somewhat by the secondary, but if hit, the Empath has NO Defense OR Resistance.

Force Field has Dispersion Bubble for personal defense, and several powers to toss foes around. However, these powers are not always reliable, leaving the Defender open to attack while having only 15% Defense and NO Resistance. He does have the PFF for emergencies, however.

Kinetics can debuff foe damage by up to 25%, and has no other defensive measures.

Radiation Emission has a small heal, and powers that debuff enemy to-hit and damage, and even a hold. that makes it one of the most effective defensive sets. However, it has limits. RI reduces To-Hit by 48%, which is pretty decent. However, if your foe DOES hit you, you have no defenses. Fortunately, Enervating Field reduces damage by 25%. The other drawback is the extreme endurance cost. Before Stamina, the endurance cost of running these toggles and attacking is prohibitive.

Sonic has only the Sonic Dispersion Field, providing 23% Resistance, but it does have the stacking Resistance debuffing, which can increase damage output where the foes have resistance to debuff.

Storm fares rather well, actually. Hurricane is nearly all it needs, as it just floors enemy accuracy (-58% to-hit). It also has Steamy Mist, providing 7% Defense, and 31% Resistance to Energy, Cold and Fire. Outside of this, it has a number of powers to knock foes around, slow them down and so on. The irony of this set is that it spreads foes out, making it less useful in open areas, such as outdoors!

Trick Arrow also has a variety of powers to reduce incoming damage, but no direct defenses. There's a hold in the Ice arrow, but it's single target. Poison Gas reduces enemy damage by 31% and Flash reduces to-hit by 10%. None of these are staggering numbers.

Only Blasters have less defenses, but they are compensated by having large damage, meaning they are taking less damage (defeated foes do NO damage). Defenders have less damage, limited defensive options and less health.

Not my numbers, the numbers I'm referring to are from Mid's, and from threads like this one.

I don't know what a FUD is, but I assume it's just an ad hominem comment, so I'll not address that further.


Amy_Amp:

I find my Controllers are rather binary, at least at lower level. If they can control their foes, they're gods. If they miss, or can't control their foes, they're dead. There's little middle ground. My experience with Defenders has been that there's no higher ground to speak of. Defenders are either struggling, or they're dead (or they're on a team).


Uberguy:

The assertion is not just mine. I've seen it said repeatedly all over the boards.

This low damage, coupled with low defenses and low health makes Defenders harder to solo than any other AT. Of course, this is a generalization, as you say, but that doen't make it invalid. Either way, I've been pushing for the BUFFING sets to be examined, as the debuffing sets tend to do satisfactorily (I'm still not sure I agree, but it's debatable).


Combat:

If you look back, you'll see that I've been arguing for endurance equalization for ages. That is, if a power is going to do less, it should COST less. Both the Blaster and Defender pay 5.2 endurance for their Power Bolts, but the Blaster does almost TWICE as much damage. That means the Defender is using twice as much endurance for attacks AND has to run toggles and such. This is also a Tanker issue.

I'm afraid I have to take exception here. It's well known that Defenders solo with greater difficulty than ANY other class. If you're suggesting otherwise, you're just wrong. There are ENDLESS threads that describe how weak Defenders are solo.

Consider that they have lower damage than anyone (Controllers, with Containment to help them, actually do quite significant damage, particularly at later levels). Consider that they have lower health than anyone (except Controllers, who have the same health, but better mitigation). Consider that they have less mitigation than anyone else (yes, the debuffers can get some mitigation from their debuffs, but the degree of mitigated damage is very small compared to other ATs; buffing sets have almost no personal mitigation).

These are not debatable, the numbers simply don't lie. Can Defenders solo? Of course. I could solo a character through the entire game using only Brawl. Would it be easy? Would it be fun? Of course not.

Soloing some Defenders is just painful. Defenders in general solo more slowly, and with less safety than any other class.