Ultimo_

People aren't listening, alas. As I have said before, it wasn't that he was killing me, it's that I couldn't do enough damage to defeat him. He was regenerating faster than I could sustain damage. The closest I got was him at half health, me at a sliver of endurance. Granted, he could have defeated me in one or two hits, but that's the nature of Defense (as opposed to Resistance).

TR:
You're telling me the AT isn't bad at soloing, even though that exact complaint has come up over and over for years?

Garent:
Storm is a set that does fairly well, as it also has debuffs in it.

Biospark:
Good luck!

Cat:
If it's a bug, I'll report it. However, as I've said over and over, this is just an example. An illustration of a larger issue.

Also, Force Bolt doesn't increase damage output, which was the problem here.

Bill:
The ability to drop missions is a band aid. It says to me that they're recognizing a balance problem, but rather than fixing it, they're giving you a way around it.
I can turn on PFF if I'm getting killed. As I've said, that isn't the problem here. Even if it was, by the time I get back to full health, so is the foe, and now I have used my inspirations.

Arcana:
There's only one solo player? People don't get frustrated when facing content that is impossible to overcome?
As I say, I wasn't intending to use the AE example to "make my case," just to illustrate it. I referred to other instances (though only bombs, specifically) where the same issue has come up, and there have been other threads on the subject. THIS thread was intended to discuss an idea of how to remedy a situation that many of others have posted about before now. Unfortunately, people are fixating on the illustration rather than the idea.

Wavicle:
Your first and second strikes are the same thing. Either way, you're missing the point that this is something that's come up before now, in other threads by other posters. Don't fixate on the illustration.



(By the way, with an exam in the morning, this is my last post for tonight. I'm not being rude or ignoring anything, it'll just have to wait!)

If you've altered your difficulty, then you're not playing the standard game anymore. I wouldn't complain about that either. If you're playing set at x8 players, then by definition it isn't solo content.

I said I lowered my difficulty. I play at -1 level on my Defender (though, realistically, I could restore that to normal levels). I don't have bosses enabled, nor do I play as more than one hero.

Again, solo content has to be soloable. It doesn't matter what AT or power set is involved.

As I said, I did use inspirations. Whole trays of them. I also used my veteran powers. The example I started the thread with was an AE custom villain EB, but there have been other situations (such as Rikti Bombs during raids, and certain other EBs). As I say, the solution is one of two courses: adjust the content, or adjust the class. Since no one else seems to have the same problems (though, Controllers suffer somewhat in other ways), the solution that I see as preferable is a tweak to the class.

I'm afraid it is definitive. It's like saying "red content should be red." If something is going to presented as a challenge for a solo hero, it has to be soloable. If the devs are saying different, then they're wrong too. Solo content has to be soloable, or it's not solo content. If it's not solo content, then it shouldn't be appearing to solo players.

My question isn't how she deals the damage, as much ashow she avoids it. How do you survive long enough to do that much damage?

First, thanks for the more considered responses.

Bio:
Yes, I probably too get a little defensive, but I've been given plenty of reason in the past. I do try not to, though.

Like you, I've learned a lot from the forums. I do try to at least test many of the suggestions I'm given. I just wish such wisdom could be had without having to be disrespected. Not in every case, but enough to make me get defensive.

1) EBs appear in solo missions. To me, that makes them solo content. Again, to me, that means ANYONE should be able to solo it, regradless of AT or powers. If anyone can't, then there's a problem somewhere. I wouldn't complain about being unable to solo AVs or GMs, because they don't appear in solo situations. EBs can, and do.

2) Defenders, like all ATs have their strengths and weaknesses. Obviously, I do have some issues with this one, but I've played other classes I dislike MORE (Blasters, anyone?). I'm not suggesting anything utterly radical here, just a tweak.

3) Choice of primary shouldn't preclude players from playing certain content. If it's going to prevent me from soloing solo content, then a problem exists there. Perhaps altering Force Fields would be a btter course of action, but I don't really think making a defensive setmore offensive is the way here, as it doesn't address the same issue (endurance/damage balance) I'm seeing for all other sets, and it's not quite in concept. I recognize it means slower soloing, but it shouldn't mean NO soloing (an exaggeration, but you get my point, I think).

I appreciate the good wishes.

Storm:
I realize there are temp and vet powers available, but they shouldn't be neccesary to be effective. They should be supports for your own powers, not replacements for them (consider that the Nemesis Staff does as much damage in one shot as my WHOLE attack chain!).
I'd never call any TF solo content. However, if it could be initiated by a solo player, I would call it solo content, and would expect anyone to be able to solo it (discounting deliberately gimped characters, like petless Masterminds).

As I said, not all combos suffer from excessively low damage output (such that there are things they cannot defeat because they just can't do enough damage), however, they still suffer from an excessive endurance cost. I'm suggesting that fixing this excessive endurance cost might be enough to overcome the offensive deficit of the underperforming combos without overpowering the ones that perform adequately.

Uberguy:
Content that appears when you're solo must be soloable. It's definitive. I'm not saying it should be easy, just possible. As I've said, I've encountered situations where I simply cannot do enough sustained damage to overcome a solo challege. I'm not saying the damage has to be boosted to Blaster levels, or Scrapper levels; I'm not saying it should be boosted at all, really. I'm juggesting equalizing the endurance use so the AT can sustain damage longer, thereby inflicting more damage over time.

I'm not using flawed logic. The subject has come up before, and has been discussed by many others before me. The example I cited was just for illustration, to describe why I'm posting. It's not definitive, just illustrative. You may be right, I may be etter off not including illustrations, they just seem to confuse things.

Again, if it appears when I'm solo, then I should be able to overcome it solo. Even in the AE, AVs appear as EBs so that they're soloable (though, Catburglar isn't an AV, just an EB).

I'm not saying the Defender is too slow, that's not an issue to me, I play Tankers! I'm saying their damage output is so low, there are some things they simply cannot defeat (at least, this power combo).

Regrding your attack on him with your rad Defender, that is a set that helps your damage output (Radiation Infection, etc.), as well as your endurance efficiency (Accelerate Metabolism). I would expect it to perform better, whatever the offensive set chosen.

I originally made Catburglar spawn without an escort, but because he starts invisble, I figured I needed to have something to clue players to where he was. I'm not sure why his escort has been so nasty recently. I'm looking into it.

Arcana:
I've had him spawn as a Boss, but also as an EB. I'm notsure what decides that. Notably, I've beaten him as a Boss, on all my characters (I always playtest my arcs on all my characters before publication, so I have a sense of the difficulty across ATs and level).

Regarding your assertion that players are only guaranteed to be able to solo standard PvE content, I'll only add that should say "solo content." It's a minor thing, but as I say, I wouldn't expect to solo things that are expressly team content. However, I wouldn't expect team content to appear in my solo content.

I agree, he's harder than most PvE content, but I've had difficulties in regular content situations too; I just used this as an illustration.

Cat:
I actually play on LOWER difficulty most of the time (ie. -1 level).

Penny:
I'm not ignoring you, I think I've addressed what you were saying though.

Bill:
I don't have Detention Field, but I used movement and such to spread the enemy out so I could pick them off one at a time until only the Catburglar was left. Took a while, but I'm patient. The problem came after that, tat I couldn't do enough damage to overcome him. Even with a full tray of blues, I just ran out of endurance, and couldn't sustain enough damage to overcome his regeneration and heal. It wasn't that he was killing me, he had a hard time connecting (33% Defense, and close to 50% Resistance - I'd have to check the actual numbers, but Technaught has become fairly tough in his later levels).

Skeet:
The fact is, such a combo exists. If it isn't supposed to be able to solo all the solo content, it shouldn't be put in solo situations. If my primary isn't going to boost my offense to adequate levels, then my secondary has to be able to achieve those levels without such help.

Necro:
Perhaps an adjustment to the Defender inherent is in order then? Make it work when the Defender is solo? The only issue I have there is that it rewards poor play, and Defenders are too squishy to rely on that. That is, I find that I'm either fine, or dead. There's little middle ground that would allow the inherent to work.

Strat:
I'd love to have a redname come in and just say they're looking at the issue. That would go a long way with me; just the recognition that there may be a problem.



I apologize for any spelling errors, this computer at work has a wonky keyboard. I've tried to catch them all, but it's a long post.

I also apologize if I didn't mention everyone, but I did read everything. I just didn't think I needed to address everything being said as most of it had been addressed in my responses to others.

Ok, again, people are fixating on the example. I only described the situation so you'd have context, a reason why I'm posting this. The point is that the AT seems to have a problem doing damage. I started the thread to discuss THAT.

Rush Bolt:
The two threads you refer to were both about Defender DEFENSES. Comments about offense did come up, but that was not the point of those threads. I've commented on this in other people's threads. People have offered advice regarding defenses for my character, not offense.

Your first post wasn't a flame, but it was a snide comment. I was just trying to nip that in the bud so we can stay on topic and productive.

I'm very prepared to learn. However, I will admit I'm not easily convinced my own experiences are not happening. As I said, that situation is not exactly "normal" but it is something the game allows for, and as such should be accessible to everyone. Either way, it was merely the catalyst for the thread, not the subject of it.

ANYTHING the game provides as a challenge to overcome must be accessible by everyone, regardless of AT or powers. It makes no difference if it's PC or Dev content. If something can't be overcome, then there's a problem somewhere. I concluded the issue was the offensive capability of the class, since at it's base level, it could not overcome this and other threats (I refer again to the Bombs). Further, it's been brought up by others before.
It was a while ago (somewhere in the 20s as I recall) that I was trying to defeat a rikti bomb and couldn't. It's also happened against other foes (such as Black Scorpion and such, though in those cases, they typically did so much damage that my damage was not an issue. Either way, this is all beside the point.

Mylia:
He spawned as an EB when I played, and was healing for over 1100 each time he used the heal.

Bill:
My build is still kind of beside the point. There's no build I know of using FF/Nrg that increases damage output. The only thing I might have that I don't is Assault, but those extra 2 points of damage are kind of irrelevant (I know, I exaggerate, but the point is it doesn't add much).
Either way, the fact remains that there seems to be considerable dissatisfaction with the damage output of Defenders.


Again, it's been discussed before that there's a problem with the damage output of Defenders, particularly those with no immediate buffs (eg. Kinetics) or debuffs (eg. Radiation). I'm just trying to start some discussion.

My contribution was that the discrepancy might start to be alleiveiated to some degree by reducing the endurance cost of the attacks. As it is, Defenders use roughly twice the endurance others do to inflict the same amount of damage. This means they run out sooner, having done only half the damage necessary. If they used less endurance, they could attack longer, doing the necessary damage, just over more time.

My question is, should the actual amount of damage be increased, and how much?

Thanks for the tips, particularly Milady and Fourspeed. I'll persevere, I suppose I have no choice (unless they allow an AT respec of some sort that would let me change him to a Tanker).


It sounds like you had some fun with the arcs, at least I hope so.
When I design the arcs, I try to make them challenging but soloable for anyone. Against Scorpion, for example, I gave you Ghost Widow and Scirocco to help you. As for skipping foes you don't have to fight, never fight a battle you don't have to win (Sun Tsu). I wish more people would consider that stuff, my arcs are usually MUCH easer if you do the task you're supposed to.

Also, as an aside, the "EB" happiness, was a little less EB happy than you think. The patrol of "EBs" in Mercy (named for their ATs) are actually not EBs. I originally created them as Bosses, but they were chewing people up, so I made them Lieutenants. They're supposed to represent the PC characters you'd see in Mercy if you actually went there.
The other missions, I added EBs for flavour, and they're mostly skippable. The only one that's a real pain is Kalinda, but if you're clever and quick, you can complete the mission.

As always, I welcome feedback on my arcs!

Yes, Claws/Ninjitsu (based on one of my Stalkers).

I appreciate that this has been brought up before, but not by me. Snide comments will not foster any kind of productive discussion, and I ask that you refrain from flaming and think about the issue I'm raising.

The issue was that I was facing a foe I could never defeat under normal conditions. That the game allows this to happen is a problem, as I see it. Note also that the fact it was a custom foe is somewhat beside the point. This Defender would have an even HARDER time taking on many of the regular EBs and AVs on his own. In the past, he has proved uncapable of defeating a Rikti Bomb on his own (though, that was at much lower level).

The lack of damage output has been discussed at length before, I'm just bringing it up again following one further example of the issue.

Hm, well, not sure what to say here.

I've been playing my FF/Nrg Defender (many of you will be familiar with my prior commentary about his defensive attributes) to some success. Now L39, he's actually become fairly survivable (due to pools more than his own powers, mainly). The problem now is that he can't do enough damage. It may be that he's had this problem all along, but I've seen it rather more blatantly tonight.

I was playing my World War 2 arc below, and came up against the Elite Boss, Catburglar. It was actually a pretty fair fight, except that I couldn't do any damage. I'd get him down to about half health, using an entire tray of blues in the process, and he'd heal back to full health. That was WITH Sands of Mu and the Nemesis Staff in use. I hate to think how little I'd have done if I didn't have those.


This leads me back to the seemingly endless debate about Defender damage output.

Certainly, it seems that my Defender has too little. Even stocking the tray half full of reds, half of blues, I did too little. However, simply boosting the damage thorugh the set could be unbalancing when it's paired with something like Sonic, that increases damage output (either directly or by reducing the target's mitigation).

If I had been able to carry on fighting, I may eventually have worn him down (unless he got that one hit in, as he was able to do over 800 damage in a single hit, against my 900 health - which is ludicrously unbalanced, devs!).

Certainly, Defenders are using too much endurance for their offense. That should be addressed. I think a damage boost across the board is needed, but I'm not sure how much is appropriate, or how it should be implemented. Any ideas?

Again I'll remind you, though, my suggestion wouldn't stop you being the mastermind, sending your pets out to do your bidding. I also wouldn't drop the second upgrade, I'd just move it to Tier 8 and swap out something else (what would depend on what's expendable in any given set). It would just give you that option of saying, "So, you've bested my minions, now see what power I possess!"

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying the AT doesn't work well as it is, I'm just thinking about how it might be given another dimension that would ADD to how it works now.

Yes, it's not a comic book, but it's a game BASED on comic books. Besides, as I said, precedent exists IN THE GAME in the form of Lord Recluse, Arbiter Sands and others.

Of course, this idea would mean a rearrangement of the powers to some extent. As such, I really don't expect it would ever happen, I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion.

Heh, I actually play bots (though I do have a Thugs MM based on the Joker).

As for encouraging petless MMs, I say sure! After all, there are times when the comic book equivalents (as I said above, Luthor, Doom, Joker, Recluse, etc.) fight without their cronies/assistants/what have you.

No, I haven't played it for a while, nor to any significant level, but I'd still like to see the added functionality of a ranged attack. As I say, I'd like to see that for ALL melee sets. There are times when foes are simply out of reach (such as those annoying Mu Zappers hovering over your head - I know, there are ways to coax them down, but a rnaged attack would be welcome, too...). Adding Power Blast to the set would be more or less the same as having Hurl in Super Strength, and would be conceptually appropriate.

You're right, though, it wouldn't really address any issues with the set as it stands.

With a crash? I thought of that too, but in that case it would need to be rather more powerful. Perhaps if it left the pets in play in addition to the buffs?

Ya, I realize that (especially since, because of limited memory, my group of unique characters is limited to 5 members). Even so, it would still be very useful.

True, but rules are meant to be broken...

The trick is to make it clear if this is a bettre idea than leaving things as they are.

I've commented a few times that it has always irritated me that my Mastermind is so dependent on his pets. I've suggested that Masterminds be given at least one serious attack to call their own.

There's precedent, both in the comics and in CoH.

While it doesn't translate perfectly, there are many characters in the comics that you might consider Masterminds. Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, even the Joker. In CoH, you have Lord Recluse. In each case, the Mastermind is a serious threat, all on his own. His pets (Luthor's robots and traps, Doom's robots and summoned threats, Joker's gangsters, Recluse's Arachnosites, etc.) are supportive.

Not so, for us. We are actually weaker than our tier 3 pets!

Now, I realize the need for balance, and I realize that the MM class is pretty strong as it is. I'm not saying the AT needs anything, except for concept, and so I suggest the following.

Each primary set, as its Tier 9, would have a toggle (named appropriately) that would change the way the character plays. Activating the toggle would dismiss all pets and disable the summoning powers. The Mastermin would gain several personal bonuses and buffs to make him the threat.

The power would:
1. Double health
2. Add a flat amount of damage to all attacks (dependant on level)
(eg. Suppose the amount is +100 damage to all attacks. The Pulse Rifle blast that did 50 damage would now do 150. The Force Bolt that did 5 damage would do 105.)
3. Add a buff to Resistance and Defense (minor, say 10% Defense, 20% Resistance, unenhanceable)
4. Slightly increase Regeneration and Recovery.
(The actual values would need to be determined for balance)

The Mastermind could leave the toggle on as long as desired, but it would have a long recharge once deactivated.

What do you think? Can you suggest an alternative that would allow us to better emulate the examples from the source material and the game itself?

Indeed. This is something I do on all my characters, actually. Get the little fish out of the way first so you can concentrate without them nipping at your heels.