TwoHeadedBoy

Wouldn't that mean that my characters would start aging?

I thought the settings sounded a little low too, but I was only skimming the conversation.
It runs t4 Agility and passive accolades to reach build goals. I'm curious to see what the results are.

Edit: There is a problem with this export, everything is set to be +something- I forget exactly what. Obviously the ATO set can't actually be buffed like that, I just did it quickly to check my defense totals (I believe Drain Psyche's recharge is boosted too.) I only used the boosters there to make up the last ~half a percent in game, so feel free to set to even level for more accurate totals and keep the defense in mind.

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What exactly are you looking to compare, and what are you looking to compare it to? Are you wanting fully fleshed out builds, or SO's/low investment only? If you're looking to compare Blaster survivability to melee AT's or Mental Blaster survivability to non-mental Blaster survivability on these settings you mentioned, I can provide you with an extensively tested and abused /Mental Blaster build for your calculations. I don't expect any build poachers to stumble this deep into a thread like this.

I haven't seen Dig online at all recently unfortunately, but I'm not sure if anyone else in his SG is actively running stuff.

I didn't mean it absolutely, I meant it in a very specific case. It's all about intent- There is no right or wrong intent, so I wasn't making the statement as absolutely as you're perceiving it, I meant that in the context of high end performance there is a right and wrong approach. It's not my opinion that someone with no aspirations to say, solo GM's and 54 spawns is playing the game incorrectly- They're just playing it differently. 10% defense to everything is a perfectly viable build alternative in some cases, but the viability of that approach scales with ambition. I was responding to something that was presuming to compare max performance builds to casual builds- Logic would dictate that the only reason to compare two things is if we assume that they're intended for the same purpose. In that case, we have assumed intent, that intent being performing to the highest standard and the differences in the quality of the results between the two approaches. In that case, yes, there is a starkly intelligent and unintelligent approach. That doesn't mean that I think people who make casual builds are by default unintelligent players.

That quote is really out of context if you look at what I was responding to.

"MY perspective is that no two people playing the same AT, played by people who have avoided the obvious pitfalls, should be more than, say, a factor of 5 apart in performance.

YOUR perspective, and maybe you don't realize this, is that a moderately skilled player with a sufficiently expensive build and the right powersets should be 20 times tougher than someone who did not make that choice. Maybe more- Arcanaville, where is the line of immortality for a S/L capped fully-Drain Psyche'd Blaster? Where is it for a blaster with 10% Defense and slotted health?"


I don't think it's fair to say that the high end performance gap is too large between a Blaster like the one I play and one that is not maximized for high end play whatsoever- Once again, it's not a matter of anyone doing it wrong, it's a matter of bringing a bicycle on a drag race. There's nothing wrong with bikes, but they have their place, and a drag race isn't it. I was responding contextually because I felt the comparison was unjustified. I've also pointed out within this thread that 'min/max' is not an exclusive club- Anyone can reach the high end of performance we've been alluding to throughout this discussion. All it takes is a significant investment, both time and inf. wise, into a character. If you choose not to make that investment where others have, I don't think it's reasonable to get results in the same ballpark. See my analogy in my previous post.

Before any of this gets misconstrued, I want to point out that I don't think that maximizing a build at all times should be required, or anything close to it. I think the content in its present state does a good job of being easy to complete for any budget and skill level on the standard difficulty setting of +0x1, but high end builds can complete the same content on +4x8. This, to me, is logical. What isn't logical is when we start gauging the performance gaps between the two build approaches, because the former should not be able to survive what the latter can. If it could, there would be no point in high end builds existing at all.

I know I come across as pretty harsh most of the time. I've really been making an effort to soften my words a bit, so I'm sorry if it's not showing.

I never said anyone was stupid or wrong for playing the game or not playing the game a certain way. The game is really easy enough that even with this performance gap we're discussing, the low end can still accomplish standard gameplay goals. A Blaster on SO's can solo SSA's and other solo level 50 missions, granted on lower difficulty settings. They can contribute to TF's and trials. They just can't do any of those things as well as a high end Blaster could, and they can't match the difficulty settings. The right and wrong to which I was referring was in a scenario where only one of the two build approaches was able to accomplish certain goals. Obviously the one who can accomplish those goals for that example is 'right,' and the one who can't is 'wrong.'

What I wanted to point out is that the divide is self imposed by those on the 'wrong' side, since there's nothing stopping them from altering their approach. It's like say, I'm racing someone to the store who's in just as good of shape as me, but they're running and I'm walking, so I lose. First, I didn't have to race anyone- If I was content getting to the store at a slower pace, and I didn't want to be able to get there as fast as the other guy, that would've been fine. However, he won the race, because I chose to participate, and I chose not to run. If I wanted to, I could've run, just like if people with low end Blasters wanted to, they could have high end Blasters. Now, your perspective in this example is that the guy who ran should have his shoes taken off so that our results are more even with one another, our speeds are closer matched, and I should be able to walk all I want and still compete in the race.

Edit: I do agree that other secondaries should be buffed to be competitive with Mental. I never said otherwise, I think it's a great change... I just don't think that Mental needs to change, and that included Drain Psyche. People already do awesome things with /Mental and the alterations people want for DP would decrease high end performance of the set in order to make it easier for those with low end builds. See my 'race' analogy for how I feel about that. I shouldn't have to lose my shoes because the other guy wants to walk.

This isn't about personal standards, it's about character performance. Fulmens was talking about a marginal performance gap between high end and low end Blasters- His point presumes 'right' and 'wrong,' I was simply elaborating upon that train of thought from the perspective of the presumed 'right.'

Editing to elaborate...

Your fun, and your roleplaying, etc. should not be dictated by a notion of right and wrong, since 'fun' is subjective. If we're talking about an unbiased analysis of character performance though, mechanics come into play. Building 'right,' or building a character that is capable of withstanding what the game has to offer, is obviously going to yield better results than building 'wrong,' or building a character that is incapable of withstanding what the game has to offer.

See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.

I was just busting on you a little bit. Humility check, and all that.

Your implication seemed to be that I was ingracious, so I just wanted to take a second to assure you that that wasn't the case.

(edit) Also, way to quote the part of my post where I was deliberately paying you your dues and not the parts that elaborated upon my points. I hate to say this, so keep in mind the respect that I already established having for you, but that was pretty Golden Girl of you. Obligatory face. ()

You look at the game in terms of what you think will be best for the game as a whole at all times. Maybe that's what you enjoy about COH, but what I enjoy about COH is how much fun I personally have while playing it. I enjoy the characters I put a crapload of time and effort into maximizing. I think "min/max" gets written off a lot as if it's some alien portion of the community, but the fact is that it's easy to do everything that I've done. I've laid out how I've done it and why I've done it. I don't think it's fair to nerf something like Drain Psyche because some people are able to use the power to its full potential while others aren't- From my perspective, the reason why some people can't use the power to its full potential is that they choose not to. I don't think I should have to suffer because of that.
That's all well and good. I know you didn't presume to directly refer to yourself here, but that's ultimately what you did. I know what you've done for the game. I appreciate what you've done for the game. I acknowledge that you know way more about the game's mechanics than I do, and you've invested way more of yourself into it, but I don't think that means I can't disagree with you about things.
I disagree. I would agree with you if the information wasn't made public, but I've never taken advantage of any tool or source of information that every other player didn't have access to. I don't think my characters should be nerfed because they committed the injustice of utilizing resources.
I'm more concerned with the things I like in the game being left alone, and new things not ruining what's already been established. I don't have any desire to force a personal agenda on the Dev's or the community, I just want what I enjoy, what I've proven to myself and others to be functional and productive, to be left alone.

There's something very sad in terms of what you consider acceptable... Defense and resistance aren't very hard concepts to grasp. Building a durable/high recharge Blaster is expensive, yes, but in the case of /Mental the payoff is absolutely worth the investment. After all my posts that alienated me from the community showing off my Blaster, a lot of people didn't like my attitude, but no one who knew what they were talking about denied that my Blaster was very impressive. It's really not even that difficult of a concept- You build to survive enough to take advantage of Drain Psyche. Drain Psyche adds an extra layer of durability on top of everything else and lets you do ridiculous things. It's not like *all* Blasters are inherently advanced- Most folks who play Blasters sit back and click attacks. They're still contributing, just not as much- But they're also placing themselves at lower risk, so logically speaking, they SHOULDN'T be contributing as much.
So the general philosophy is that everything should be really easy and require less intelligent build planning and investment in order to achieve high end or comparable results? Basically what you seem to be saying is that the Dev's philosophy by default should be trivializing high end builds, and those of us who have earned those exceptional results (god mode mental Blasters in this instance) are dispensable, because not very many people are as good as we are anyways, so it's no big deal..
And because you've suffered from this in the past, and you were ok with it because you don't mind having your characters nerfed for the sake of less skilled players, that means that everyone should, by default, also be ok with that?

I'm only responding to this because I feel like it really cuts to the heart of the matter for me. Your perspective seems to be overall that everything in the game should be equally accessible for casuals, and players with lower skill and investment levels should be able to attain the same or comparable results. This is a philosophy that I 100% disagree with- I think the game should have its starter sets, like Willpower, that are accessible and usable for the average joe, but I also think the game should continue to have advanced skill level powersets that pay more dividends and reward player skill and build investment. If it weren't for the fact that high risk powers existed, I would have no interest in this game at all.

I'm sorry if I came across as insulting, that wasn't my intention.. Based on your assessment of Drain Psyche though, I'm just getting the impression that you don't have much in game experience with the power. It's like Soul Drain and Eclipse, and it's totally balanced with those powers even if you consider the presumed overpowered factor (the enhancable -regen.) Eclipse is a much better survivability buff with the same assumed conditions, it would fall perfectly under your "great on perma builds, not so good on non-perma builds" theory. I have yet to hear anyone complain about Eclipse and I would probably cry if they did. Soul Drain and Sunless Mire are also based on the same conditions as Drain Psyche, but no one complains about them either. Yeah, Drain Psyche has enhancable -regen, which is pretty OP, but it's also a much harder power to leverage than other powers that work in the same fashion. It also requires a tohit check which is a balancing factor in and of itself.

I think it's important to understand mechanics and all that, but a lot of things are much different in practice than they seem in theory.

The point is that instant click hardcapped resistance to everything but psi is way more of an OP survivability click than hardcapped regen and recovery at a high target cap. Barely capped doesn't matter so I'm not really sure what you're saying. Hardcapped is hardcapped.
I agree, I wasn't saying one was better than the other- Just giving an example of a power that is clearly WAI that is able to hardcap in a way that's way more helpful to survivability than DP for the average player in the average situation.
I think it's weird that you think Drain Psyche is broken. I feel like you speak more from mathematical rhetoric based on over-analyzing spreadsheets and very seldom speak from in game experience. I use Drain Psyche often. I have 2 level 50 Mental Blasters. My Fire Blaster was much less expensive and therefore does not benefit very much from Drain Psyche compared to my Archery Blaster. DP is only OP if you can afford to make it perma and build for layered defense/resistance. Otherwise, you'll die most of the times you try to optimally leverage it. I'm speaking from experience here.
How is that a flaw? It's an awesome power if you can afford to take advantage of it. I think the game needs more designs like that- It doesn't enable a lack of commitment to a build. If you want an awesome /Mental Blaster, you need to be willing to invest enough time/inf into refining the technique and making a viable build to properly leverage the set. If your position is that every set should be like Willpower, essentially layman's gaming for the casual, I can't agree with you. I think that sets that are difficult to master should produce better results once mastered and invested in on principle.

They're only smashing into those caps at the target cap (at least regen wise,) and perma builds that can survive being at the target cap (melee range) in the first place are very expensive. Light Form is way more OP in that sense since it's an instant click that caps resistance with a much longer uptime.

The duration is so short that it doesn't make a huge impact IMO without very good global recharge, at least not enough to be any more OP than something like Rage is in its own right.. Shrug. It's also worth noting that it's very hard to build for good uptime on Drain Psyche and good defense/resistance without investing heavily into your build, and it's hard to take full advantage of DP since in and of itself it's not a great survivability tool. imo, that heavy an investment in any build should lead to at least somewhat OP results.

I agree that buff sets can be made obsolete, and I feel like they're completely obsolete on a team full of well built characters. Support AT's provide fantastic debuffs though- If every set was as good as Rad and Cold, there'd be no cause for complaint imo.

Eh, sets like Sonic Blast on a Defender or Fire Blast on a Corruptor are beastly because of the secondary effects (and inherent in the latter.) I do agree that the secondary effects in some blast sets aren't that good though.