Turbo_Ski
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Whenever a enemy foe uses Oil Slick Arrow against a player, the oil slick target can only be hit by the player but the resulting effect damages the player.
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Updated version for i15
<ul type="square">[*]Dominator modifiers updated[*]Dominator assault set and Gravity Control > Lift attack values updated[*]Domination removed from damage buff selector[*]Dark Melee > Siphon Life and Midnight Grasp updated[*]Soul Drain split from Sunless Mire and updated in damage buff selector[*]War Mace > Clobber updated[*]Energy Melee > Barrage updated [*]Fixed typo in Icy Assault > Bitter Ice Blast damage[*]Tanker Pyre Mastery powers now treat fire damage as fire damage[*]Pyre Mastery > Char damage value updated[*]Wolf Spider > Single Shot/Venom Grenade/Frag Grenade cast times updated[*]Blaster and Corruptor Assault Rifle cast times updated[*]Stalker epic snipes changed from range scale to melee scale[*]Black Dwarf Mire and Drain cast times corrected (they were swapped)[*]Fifth APP and PPP powers added where applicable[*]Damage/endurance/recharge calculator for claws formulas (single-target only) added[/list]
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Thanks wonderslug -
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I dont know why, but I've found that Rad Blast can feel very ineffectual despite doing the same kind of damage values as other Defender sets.
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I feel this way too. I know it's in my head, but it's still there. I've just never bonded with the set because of it.
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probably because of neutrino bolt is such an oddball starting attack. Honestly the rest of the set is pretty damn boringly normal as blast sets go. -
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the support advantage of defender is about 10% less than the damage advantage of corruptors. Unless of course you look at a broken set like sonic blast.
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Again, don't forget Scourge, unless you plan to give Defenders an Inherent which does about the same additional damage as Scourge.
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I wasn't forgetting scourge, the support numbers are just completely screwed up all over the place for support sets. -
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I believe Defenders should be at 1, Corruptors need to be the same as Blasters, since in the dark side they fit a simialr role.
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I don't think you understand what you're saying. First off Corruptors aren't anywhere close to being like blasters, nor should they be. Secondly, you're completely ignoring the scourge inherent and the damage buffs and -res debuffs in support sets.
An appropriate buff to defender damage would be to raise it from 0.65 to 0.70. Pushing the envelope would be raising corruptor from 0.75 to 0.80 and defender from 0.65 to 0.75. Raising defender damage to 1.0 and corruptor to 1.125 is utter madness.
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I think Corruptors and Defenders are close enough as-is that I'd hate to see a Defender damage buff without an accompanying Corruptor one. 0.7 and 0.8 would be somewhat more reasonable than having them only be 0.05 away from eachother.
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the support advantage of defender is about 10% less than the damage advantage of corruptors. Unless of course you look at a broken set like sonic blast. -
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I believe Defenders should be at 1, Corruptors need to be the same as Blasters, since in the dark side they fit a simialr role.
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I don't think you understand what you're saying. First off Corruptors aren't anywhere close to being like blasters, nor should they be. Secondly, you're completely ignoring the scourge inherent and the damage buffs and -res debuffs in support sets.
An appropriate buff to defender damage would be to raise it from 0.65 to 0.70. Pushing the envelope would be raising corruptor from 0.75 to 0.80 and defender from 0.65 to 0.75. Raising defender damage to 1.0 and corruptor to 1.125 is utter madness. -
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ok thats cool how many slots would you allocate to each power? i was thinking 5 to 6 in the primary and adjusting the secondary
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you would have to really do it on a power by power basis. use Mids, assess which powers you want for sure first, then experiment with different IO sets. As long as you don't completely destroy the purpose of the power like slotting damage sets into freeze ray instead of hold sets, then you really should be fine. -
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Haven't seen the veggie one. I did play the chocolate arc, it was tasty.
Now to work on my arc featuring evil world-beating children eating chocolate-covered veggies while riding unicorns. Oh, and saying cheesy things.
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I demand it be EXTRA NACHO cheesy things. -
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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^THIS^ -
I demand an arc surrounding an explosive new candy
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Maybe. I've never really been opposed to increasing defender or corrupter damage myself.
To apply a crappy analogy:
Poorly balanced powers = wheels
Damage mod = engine
I might decide it was more important to ensure that my wheels worked correctly before I start boosting the power on the engine.
I think that is consistent to how Castle went about when he overhauled defiance and more recently the dom changes.
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Support sets are unique though and will require more work than altering from one perspective (inherent). Damage is a common problem across the board for defenders so get that as close to balance as you can first and then start on individual sets.
EDIT: Think of it how Castle is handling Kheldians. There are still a lot of powers that need tweaking but he fixed the overall problems first. -
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Raising the defender base damage modifier from 0.65 to 0.70 would at least help out the other blast sets and close the gap a bit better without trumping corruptor damage for the most part.
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I am not entirely opposed to buffing defender damage. I even stated back before I11 that the only reason I could see increasing blaster ranged damage was that it gave room to buff dominator, defender, and corruptor ranged damage without infringing. Doms got their buff, it would be nice to see the others improved as well.
Would a 7.7% increase help? How many fewer attacks will I need to kill various +1 enemies with a defender at level 25, 35, and 45 using Energy Blast?
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it would be 7.7% less attacks needed overall regardless of +dmg/-res factors. Of course I'm not factoring in overkill on higher damage attacks like Bitter Ice Blast of course as Star is for scourge crits.
I honestly would rather see a 10% buff, but a 0.70 modifier feels like a more safer value, especially if they don't tone down sonic blast some for defenders and corruptors. -
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fulcrum shift, speed boost, and siphon speed are identical for both ATs
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Missed this earlier on the thread.
Fulkrum Shift is not identical on both ATs, the corruptor debuffs 20% dmg and buffs 40% damage while the defender is 25%/50%, mind you, either can easily take anyone to the damage caps with enough foes.
Speed boost and siphon speed, yea those two are basically the same, defender version of siphon speed has a stronger -speed debuff but it's not like anyone cares about that debuff anyways.
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the difference between a Defender Fulcrum Shift and corruptor fulcrum shift is only a 10% buff.
Defender radiates one +50% from themselves and +25% per foe up to 10.
Corruptor radiates one +40% from themselves and +25% per foe up to 10.
When the numbers scale up to be a max of 300% and 290%, that 10% difference might as well not even exist.
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The difference may be small (they also debuff for different amounts) the point is they are not identical
Fulcrum is a glaring example of where they did not make a meaningful difference in the power between AT's. That isn't the fault of defenders though and it isn't evidence that defs need a increase to their base modifier.
Increasing their base modifier wouldn't correct the issue with corrs/trollers buffing to basically the same values with fulcrum. It wouldn't fix speedboost being the same, or all the other kin powers that are too close for comfort.
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A base damage increase is where you would need to start to even begin balancing the support sets. Otherwise you're going to be force to scale the lacking support powers too high to compensate. -
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Either City of data is incomplete or you got it wrong.
City of data lists a 50% damage buff and a -25 damage debuff.
Login into the game to check real numbers...
Hmmm... I see that 25% there... unfortunately don't have a kin at a level to be able to test this.
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it summons 3 different type of pets total.
First 2 pets:
Debuff Spherical AoE
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* Summon Kinetic Transfer (1s) (PL_StaticObject) at Target
* DMG(All Types) -25% for 30s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* DMG(All Types) -25% for 30s If target is a player [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
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This one radiates from caster:
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DMG(All Types) +50% for 45s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
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This one is summoned by the AoE debuff:
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DMG(All Types) +25% for 45s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable]
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http://www.redtomax.com/data/powers/...netic_Transfer
Click on the 2 links and the link on the debuff pet to see that I'm right here. -
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Unique is good. Some of the unique suggestions for Vigilance I've seen have been smashing the cottage rule and making it inspiration related. My suggestion: defender insps are PBAoE buffs. Another suggestion I've seen: defenders get a copy of the buff whenever a nearby teammate pops an insp.
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Aren't defenders already awesome on teams? If any buff for a defender should be made, I would think solo performance is where you would want to look.
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buff all defender base damage to start and then adjust the inconsistencies in support sets up and down accordingly and adjust sonic blast down some. Vigilance is really just a side issue compared to those concerns though. -
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fulcrum shift, speed boost, and siphon speed are identical for both ATs
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Missed this earlier on the thread.
Fulkrum Shift is not identical on both ATs, the corruptor debuffs 20% dmg and buffs 40% damage while the defender is 25%/50%, mind you, either can easily take anyone to the damage caps with enough foes.
Speed boost and siphon speed, yea those two are basically the same, defender version of siphon speed has a stronger -speed debuff but it's not like anyone cares about that debuff anyways.
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the difference between a Defender Fulcrum Shift and corruptor fulcrum shift is only a 10% buff.
Defender radiates one +50% from themselves and +25% per foe up to 10.
Corruptor radiates one +40% from themselves and +25% per foe up to 10.
When the numbers scale up to be a max of 300% and 290%, that 10% difference might as well not even exist. -
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Well, corruptors are supposed to out-damage defenders, so I expect that to be the case. I wouldn't have been surprised if an outlier or two existed where a defender build might be able to outdamage a corruptor one, but it certainly should not be the norm. Defenders buffs/debuffs being better is more team useful.
A lot of people have stated that corruptor buffs/debuffs, while mildly lower in performance than defenders, still get the job done. That pretty much has to be the case. You wouldn't want to design an AT with the expectation that they have functional buff/debuffs and then allow them to fail to get the job done.
So here is the current case:
Corruptors solo fine (even without exclusively building for it); for a team they bring good buffs/debuffs, and good damage.
Defenders bring great buffs/debuffs and low damage to a team. Soloing experiences vary enough that while I enjoy my defenders, I have to believe a potential for improvement exists. Many of the more reasonable solo defender builds have to make sacrifices in their team powers.
My personal biggest gripe is not time to kill, but endurance to kill. Increasing damage will help my end to kill issue, but I'd rather them keep the slower pace, just with less downtime.
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Oh I never said defender damage should perfectly equal, but it should at least be reasonably close enough even without -res/+dmg buffs in effect on either side. currently doesn't really get close to that unless you go Sonic Blast which frankly is overpowered compared its alternatives for defenders, and even corruptors. Raising the defender base damage modifier from 0.65 to 0.70 would at least help out the other blast sets and close the gap a bit better without trumping corruptor damage for the most part. It certainly would be a step in the right direction if they want to properly balance out the numerical flaws in support sets going between primary<->secondary.
In Rad for instance, raising corruptor/controller enervating field from -22.5% resist to -24% would even it out with transition Rad Infection, Lingering Rad, chocking cloud, emp pulse, mutation, and Acc. Metabolism receive. Also making Fallout not being exactly the same for both ATs is another balance tweak that would need to be made.
That's just Rad as a set though, a lot of the other support sets will require a lot more work to fix the inconsistencies. -
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The best you can actually get from scourge is about 20.7% bonus damage and thats while fighting the biggest of the biggest HP bags in the game: GMs. And this assumes you are soloing them, too, so also an inflated number.
The link to my experiment can be found here.
Depending what you are fighting, the bonus is minimal, against even level minions its just about 7%, note this may be better against higher level minions but it requires a lot of level jump for a minion to equate the Lt, who gets about 11% out of scourge.
The flaw with a simple formulaic analysis of scourge (as I attempted to describe in my guide) is that although you may get 21.25%, in practice, even the weakest of attacks will make your target jump from something like 40% to dead or 25% to dead, this makes the optimal scenario impossible to achieve against anything but GMs, or perhaps the new Reinchsman encounter, or extremely resistant foes.
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I'll concede to the burst killing factor of minions and lts.
However even without scourge factored in, corruptor still ends up being 4% to 16% higher damage when using the same sets. Toss in your 7% for scourge and we're talking a minimum of 11% to 23% that is including the +dmg/-Res debuffs factored in for both ATs. If the idea was that defender +Dmg/-Res is supposed to fill the gap some between corruptors and defenders in damage, it fails heavily. -
Don't they know when you see Foo you're supposed to shoot to kill?
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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.
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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.
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Cuz, you know, Scourge does absolutely nothing for average damage scalar. There's absolutely no data to support Corrupters more accurately having a .95 ranged damage scalar to account for averaging Scourge in.
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Actually scourge makes it about 0.91 from my data.
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Either way, it's substantially higher than the base scalar gives it credit for.
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Someone did a big anaysis of it actually tracking it over time vs various mob types. I sort of feel like it was Starsman?, but can't find it now.
iirc though it was like 7% for minions, ~10% for luts, 17-19% for bosses, eb, +.
It isn't quite accurate to just add those numbers to the base modifier. At say 19% scourge rate that works out being closer to a 14 pt increase in the base damage modifier.
ie. .75*1.19 = 0.89
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except the overall damage scourge deals over time isn't effected by the con level or max hp of the foe. It's a straight 21.25% increase to the overall damage it takes to kill a foe. -
I demand an arc with evil children attempting to take over the world...
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*walks in*
*sees a bunch of scary numbers*
*slowly backs out of the thread*
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are you still having nightmares about arcanaville eating you? -
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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.
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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.
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Cuz, you know, Scourge does absolutely nothing for average damage scalar. There's absolutely no data to support Corrupters more accurately having a .95 ranged damage scalar to account for averaging Scourge in.
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Actually scourge makes it about 0.91 from my data. -
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Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders.
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If they choose to only use one attack vs. a target. What happens if they chain attacks and stack even more of the Sonic -res debuff? I know most players would only attack with scream and forgo other attacks, but just in case someone goes crazy and also uses Shriek and Screech.
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unless you can magically maintain 8 total stacks of sonic blast -res debuffs 100% of the time, a Rad/Sonic defender will NEVER deal the same damage Sonic/Rad corruptor does. The post I was replying to was claiming that defenders have the potential to do the same damage as a corruptor, which is just no where close to being true. -
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1) While a Defender does do less damage than a Corruptor, as a particular Primary/Secondary combination provides more damage buffs, the gap gets smaller. The Rad/Sonic combination provides the greatest overall damage buffs, and numerically does about the same damage on both ATs. The Corruptor starts out with more damage, but the Defender raises its damage further.
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This just isn't true if you're comparing the same set combinations between the two ATs.
Let's compare Rad/Sonic defender vs Sonic/Rad corruptor.
Using Scream over time to kill a target with X hp (value doesn't matter) and zero resistance at +0 con.
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Defender scream:
base damage: 47.7
recharge base: 6
recharge bonus enhancements: 0.95
recharge bonus from buffs: 0.30
debuff value: 0.20
debuff duration: 7
Ener. Field debuff: 0.3
Average debuff value over time = (7/(6/(1+.95+.3)))*0.20 + 0.3 = 0.825
Corruptor scream:
base damage: 58.4
recharge base: 6
recharge bonus enhancements: 0.95
recharge bonus from buffs: 0.30
debuff value: 0.15
debuff duration: 7
Ener. Field debuff: 0.225
Average debuff value over time = (7/(6/(1+.95+.3)))*0.15 + 0.225 = 0.619
Now to apply damage buffs with 0.95 damage enhancement + AM dmg buff
Defender dmg buff total = 0.25 + 0.95 = 1.2
Corruptor dmg buff total = 0.20 + 0.95 = 1.15
Total defender dmg per hit = (47.7*(1+1.2))*(1+0.825) = 191.52
Total corruptor dmg per hit = (58.4*(1+1.15))*(1+0.619) = 203.25
Scourge over time is a 21.25% damage increase to damage after -res/+dmg occurs. How to find scourge was detailed earlier in the thread and really doesn't need to be repeated, just use a spreadsheet.
If we use X = 100,000,
# of hits to kill for defender = 522.1509486
# of hits to kill for corr w/ scourge = 405.7926108
# of hits to kill for corr w/o scourge = 492.0043149
Corruptor damage advantage = 522.1509486 / 405.7926108 - 1 = 0.2867
Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders. also it should be noted that the average support gain from the Rad set for defenders is 25.46% if we exclude fallout.