The_Solitair

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I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so please forgive me. Is the issue that you want a to-hit check made for the damage that would be applied to each henchman, for the damage that would be redirected via the bodyguarding feature? Hasn't such a check been made, in effect, on the attack directed at you, the MM.

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I want my secondary to not be completely bypassed by every hero who decides to pummel me. The current implementation will have ME being the one attacked, so yes, a to hit check has been made...but I'm MUCH easier to hit and have a MUCH lower resistance than any of my minions. My bubbles do extremely little as far as defending myself, they are only good for defending my minions and teammates. The way Bodyguard is going to work, damage pumped into me will be shared with my minions and completely bypass any bubbles I've given them. Every other secondary has powers to heal, fight back, or both. FF is all about defence, but bodyguard is bypassing that defence.

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I admit, though, that since you can't buff yourself, enemies could theoretically defeat your bots by attacking you directly, if you had them in bodyguard mode.

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Thats exactly the point I've been trying to make. Sure, bodyguard will extend the life expectancy of every MM regardless of secondary. However, every other secondary has powers that they can use to fight back, heal, or both. FF doesn't! FF is supposed to help protect our minions and team mates, but this implementation of bodyguard is bypassing any benefit our secondary would provide.

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This is one of the reasons I think MMs need to be able to placate their foes, or pets need some sort of taunt.

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That is what I was hoping for. Give pets a chance to leap in front of any attack coming at us, effectively having the effect of the attacker being confused and hitting the wrong target. They fire, the pet suddenly becomes the target instead of the MM, and the pet takes the hit. Let it only be a percent chance based on how many pets are out (say 20% chance per pet). That will mean heroes will need to target pets BEFORE they can target the MM. Once the MM's pets are whittled down, then the MM can be destroyed....the more pets killed, the easier to target and kill the MM.

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So I think your fight should be on the MM boards, asking to get a boost to FF. Attacking bodyguard IMO isnt the best route. I'm for a boost to FF since Im one too.

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I'm not attacking Bodyguard. I'm asking for the devs to consider a change in how it works, and to look closesly at the interaction that it will have between all of the different secondaries. I have said from the begining that I think it will extend the lives of MMs....just that I disagree with the way it is being done, namely that it bypasses what FF secondary is all about.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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We do. I've tried multiple builds in PvP (although admittedly only Robots/FF in a Warburg setting) and have been having a blast. This probably, however, has something to do with my experience as a Blaster, where I learned to recognize that the biggest risk is often the most fun...you just shouldn't expect to beat the big risk all the time (it IS a BIG RISK, after all). From what I can see, few other MMs have this kind of tolerance, however, and do not even resort to running/Flying/SSing/SJing/TPing away, even when they have no status or secondary effects affecting their mobility.

Stated another way:
Players target us ANYWAY. Even with some kind of inherint mini-confuse or redirection, they still would: take down the general, down go the troops. This will be a fact of life, since it will NEVER be truly harder for a player to target us instead, since even in an imbalanced MM/pet situation, killing pets would be our cue to run...therefore they still don't get us. Bodyguard increases life expectancy from alpha strikes and people who get us without warning, and can only be good, and almost require anyone wanting to one-shot us to have us be engaged with other foes...something they often do anyway! ANY buff like that for us in PvP is a boon, and treating it like poison only shows that you're crazy. I admit, it's not perfect...nothing is. We can lobby for improvement, but don't treat small blessings like terrible curses.

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I don't see anybody treating this as a terrible curse. I have stated repeatedly that bodyguard mode will definately extend the life expectancy of any MM. I still, however, greatly dislike the fact that FF as a secondary is being expressly and specifically discriminated against. Every other secondary has powers which allow them to fight back, heal, or both. FF secondary is the only one that lacks these powers...opting for a total defense approach, which the developers are setting up to be bypassed and ignored in PvP.

Is bodyguard going to be beneficial? Yes, every other MM secondary benefits to a much greater extent than FF, not because their minions take any more damage than ours when the damage is shared out from us, but because the large majority of other secondary powers are still very useful, while the majority of ours become useless.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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While FF is certainly rant-worthy, it has problems far and above the few things that you're bringing up. I mean here's a Defender primary that works as well or better for Controllers and possibly Masterminds in five out of the nine powers. In the rankings Controllers use FF at 92% efficiency just based off of numbers, and not including synergy with pets.

As far as your point about Bodyguard, well, just think of it like when the developers announced that Defenders' big advantage in PvP was that "debuffs were irresistable"; FF just tends to not intrude into their thinking too awfully much.

Just as a question, I had proposed a while ago swapping the values on Dispersion and Deflection/Insulation so that the total +DEF provided by the FFer wouldn't change, but the personal +DEF provided to the FFer would be greater. How do you think this would work for MM's?

Thanks!

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I would like to see something like that done. As long as the totals are the same for the minions we bubble, and our group members, it shouldn't imbalance anything. Our personal defenses are so low now that any help would be a godsend. Lets face it, in PvE, our bubbles do just fine, because we're not the target, our friends/minions are. Its PvP when we run into problems, because we CAN"T bubble ourselves, and nobody targets our minions. Even our friends are targeted AFTER we are killed, because we are the fastest and easiest kill (although bodyguard may change that). My only problem with the bodyguard as it has been described is the complete disreguard for protections given by my secondary. I don't see why it should SO imbalance MMs with a FF secondary if our minions still get their defenses even against damage transferred to them from us....After all, its not as if we can chase people...pets get left behind, so getting away is fairly easy. So what if our pets are harder to kill than those of the other MM secondaries. THEY get more offense, heals, or both...while we get more defense. They can kill faster, we have more life expectancy. Sounds balanced to me.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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I find it interesting that the developers give the community an interesting bonus to the mastermind archetype and rather than be pleased with it we have a thread full of doomsayers. They must be breeding like crazy! What are you people feeding them?

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If you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, why are you posting at all?

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We have been trying to get Devs to implement something that would cause heroes to have a reason to target pets first before the MM.

To the best of my knowledge FF MMs are already the most capable of getting players to try this in the first place.

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Only if we hide inside our PFF, which limits our pets by cutting off any possibility of our supporting them, even if just with supremacy and the leadership pool Believe it or not, many FF MMs (myself included) don't want to "turtle up" with PFF and be reduced to spectator status.

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Something along those lines would have allowed pets to use their defenses AND resistances, and would have given MMs the increased life expectancy we've been asking for.

Could it also be that what you are asking for is simply too much? You may not feel that way but look at it from the game designer's point of view.

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I don't think I'm asking for too much. Dark Miasma can crank of AE heals and keep not only themselves but ALL of their minions alive while they are being pounded on. FF doesn't have that option. I can't keep my minions alive indefinately with heals...I have to make them harder to hurt in the first place. Other secondaries have a mix of heals (such as poison) and attacks, or defenses (traps) and attacks, or just lots of attakcs (trick arrow) that they can use...FF doesn't have those options.

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Just because players ignore our pets currently, and the bubbles don't help for squat, doesn't mean that is the way it SHOULD be!

Taking out the general so his troops will fall has been a valid tactic since...well since tacticcs were conceived.

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Absolutely, however it would also be historically and tactically accurate to say that troops take steps to protect their general. Using your analogy, I am a general who prepares my troops for battle by providing them the best possible bodyarmor. Currently, my troops go into battle with me, but I go into battle virtually naked. People ignore my troops because they are hard to hit, and simply kill me, because as soon as I die, my troops "surrender." Under the bodyguard system my troops will leap in front of attacks in order to protect me, BUT THEY WILL TAKE OFF THEIR ARMOR BEFORE THEY DO. They will still "surrender" if I am killed. I can't heal them, and I can't help them fight back like other generals can. I want to undeerstand, why is it that when my troops leap in front of attacks to protect me, they remove their armor first????? This makes no sense!

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Taking a PROactive rather than REactive approach is often the better way to go about things.

The best defense is a good offense, but if no one intends to attack you then all you've accomplished is starting a war that nobody wanted to fight in the first place.

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What war??? I'm pointing out what I (and others) feel are inequities in the way Bodyguard is being handled, especially in light of the PFF nerf to MMs. This isn't a war, this is a discussion, or at least it would be if people would refrain from using personal attacks.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Open your own eyes! In PvP, AoE attacks are the extreme minority. It is the single target damage that kills us, and when we share that with our pets, our bubbles do NOTHING to help.

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Right, okay .... and this is different from PVP NOW in ... precisely WHAT way, again?

NOW: Single-target damage dealt directly to the MM ignores any benefit from the MM's secondary powerset with very few exceptions (mainly, debuffs already applied to the damage-dealer) ... and when the MM is nigh-inevitably one- or two-shot, the pets die anyway.

SOON: Single-target damage dealt directly to the MM ignores any benefit from the MM's secondary powerset with very few exceptions (mainly, debuffs already applied to the damage-dealer) ... but now it is almost impossible to even THREE-shot the MM, because some of the damage is spread out among their pets.[/i]

Ao ... what exactly is the problem, again ...?

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I am surprized that some of you just dont understand his point. It is pretty clear.

Reguardless of if the mastermind has bodyguard or not, the /FF secondary has a big design flaw. It was designed for a purely PvE game. PvP was added later. It is simply not designed for PvP use, and that is not fair to any /FF user. It is just a lot more pronounced for a Mastermind then other /FF classes. What is the point of a powerset that is primarily focused on reducing the damage my pets take, when in PvP combat, all the damage is focused on me? The only thing that made /FF worthwhile in PvP was the ability to turn PFF on and off frequently, which is no longer an option to masterminds.

Even if you have bodyguard active, and the damage gets spread to the pets, even then that little bit of damage they are getting ignores the protection they are supposed to get from Forcefields. This secondary is already at a big disadvantage in PvP, this little fact is just "adding insult to injury".

There is however a simple fix for this problem. Allow the mastermind to target himself, so that he can cast his two forcefield buffs on himself. This way the MM gets to enjoy the same damage protection in PvP as he does in PvE. The difference being that PvE damage is focused on pets, while PvP damage is focused on mastermind. /FF needs to accomodate for this fact.

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Thank you. I've been arguing this for days now, and you seem to be the first person (at least the first who bothered posting) who can actually see my point.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles.
Justice

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Open your own eyes! In PvP, AoE attacks are the extreme minority. It is the single target damage that kills us, and when we share that with our pets, our bubbles do NOTHING to help.

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Right, okay .... and this is different from PVP NOW in ... precisely WHAT way, again?

NOW: Single-target damage dealt directly to the MM ignores any benefit from the MM's secondary powerset with very few exceptions (mainly, debuffs already applied to the damage-dealer) ... and when the MM is nigh-inevitably one- or two-shot, the pets die anyway.

SOON: Single-target damage dealt directly to the MM ignores any benefit from the MM's secondary powerset with very few exceptions (mainly, debuffs already applied to the damage-dealer) ... but now it is almost impossible to even THREE-shot the MM, because some of the damage is spread out among their pets.[/i]

Ao ... what exactly is the problem, again ...?

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The problem is that FF is the ONLY secondary powerset which is going to have powers that are effectvely USELESS due to the implementation of bodyguard. Other secondaries have heals, or attacks, or both, whith which they can fight back or extend the lives of their pets and themselves. FF doesn't have heals and doesn't have offensive powers. Our secondary is designed around PROTECTING our minions and other group members, but bodyguard is going to allow damage to not only BYPASS our bubbles but to ignore the resistance of our minions as well.

Sure, that is what is being done now. Heroes ignore our minions and kill us. Minions die when we do, and bubbles end up playing no role and provide no benefit. That doesn't mean that it should be that way, or that it should stay that way.

Just because thats what is happening now doesn't mean its right!

The problem SHOULD be obvious to anyone paying attention. Its not rocket science!

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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I desperately hope for AI upgrades with I7, however, none have been announced, so I don't expect any.

Positron mentioned during beta that they'd be actively trying to get the AI to be "smarter" but I don't think even if they did some minor changes that it would warrant inclusion in any of the press releases.

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I think the MM comunity would disagree. Any AI upgrade is definately something deserving of publicity and much rejoicing.

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Open your own eyes! In PvP, AoE attacks are the extreme minority. It is the single target damage that kills us, and when we share that with our pets, our bubbles do NOTHING to help.

In the situation you describe your bubbles do nothing currently, so what exactly is the problem?

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The fact that bubbles CURRENTLY do nothing has no bearing on the problem at hand. We have been trying to get Devs to implement something that would cause heroes to have a reason to target pets first before the MM. Something along those lines would have allowed pets to use their defenses AND resistances, and would have given MMs the increased life expectancy we've been asking for. Just because players ignore our pets currently, and the bubbles don't help for squat, doesn't mean that is the way it SHOULD be!

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No, detoggling isn't being removed completely, but it is (paraphrasing) "being drastically reduced." This is a serious nerf for those of us who use forcebolt offensively....because its one of the very few offensive powers in the FF set

Seeing as how this entire bit is purely speculation I see no reason to actively argue about it. "Drastically reduced" can mean a great many things and until it hits test I'm going to resuggest not jumping to conclusoins based on an extremely vague phrase. Some powers could remain untouched while others see a removal entirely.

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That is true, however, if the MM comunity makes our thoughts, wishes, and expectations known now BEFORE I7 is even on test, we may have a chance of something being tweaked favorably while the work is still being done. Speaking out AFTER the fact will have a much lower chance of getting changes considered, and even if changes are decided on, it will be long months before they are ever implemented. Taking a PROactive rather than REactive approach is often the better way to go about things.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Well the only possible solution to this issue is to have the henchmen affected to have their dmg resistance be taken into account after the dmg split by BG is taken. To hit checks dont make sense since they are volunteering to take the dmg for their master.

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Actually, I would find this an acceptable change, even if it does continue to bypass my bubble protection. It may make no sense to have damage I dump onto my pets make a seperate check to see if it hits, but the pets should definately get to use their own resistances.

This would still basically circumvent nearly all of the FF secondary powers which are designed around keeping the minions from being hit, but at least it would be a small step in the right direction.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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HELLO!!!!! Detoggles are being nerfed!!!!!

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HELLO!!!!! "Nerf" is not the same as "eliminated entirely".

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It wasn't me you were responding to, but I wanted to put in my 5 cents
I have 3 accuracy 1 range and 1 recharge in my forcebolt. Slotting of forcebolt isn't the issue. Please address the issue, which is the fact that Bodyguard is making FF secondary virtually useless.

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Read my SIG. My main IS a /FF mastermind, and I don't think my secondary has been rendered "virtually useless" by the advent of Bodyguard. Indeed, my bubbles mean that AoE stuff will do LESS, inherently, to my pets. Thus, I can survive LONGER against AoE's, with my pets in Bodyguard stance, than many other MMs.

See, they work together ... IF you're willing to open your MIND and EYES, and look at it from perspectives different from the one you start at.

As for me? FB is slotted 3 ACC, 3 Recharge. Fast-firing and reasonably likely to hit.

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Open your own eyes! In PvP, AoE attacks are the extreme minority. It is the single target damage that kills us, and when we share that with our pets, our bubbles do NOTHING to help.

No, detoggling isn't being removed completely, but it is (paraphrasing) "being drastically reduced." This is a serious nerf for those of us who use forcebolt offensively....because its one of the very few offensive powers in the FF set, and is the only one that is commonly taken (required, yea, I know, but the others are RARELY used).

As for your slotting of forcebolt....you effectively wasted 2 recharge slots IMO. with 1 recharge Forcebolt recharges with perfect timing to hit a player who has just regained their feet. More than that and you hit them while they are still down, allowing them to regain their feet and have ample time to act before the next one lands.

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Not trying to discredit your research in any way but there is always the possibility of further AI upgrades for the pets to be included in the upcoming update. My suggestion is to take a wait and see approach before coming to conclusions. What you find to be true now may not be true then.

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I desperately hope for AI upgrades with I7, however, none have been announced, so I don't expect any.

Between the horrible AI pets currently have, the depressing setup time we have upon entering a zone or recovering after death, and the difficulty in moving our pets throughout a zone, I think MMs are the most needy AT in the entire game right now. No other AT has as many gaping holes in their playability, especially for PvP.....its just too bad that no Dev has addressed any of them yet, other than Bodyguard....and look at how that has been handled so far....

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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The problem I have is I have been trying out defensive/follow. Using a low level mastermind, I had two pets. Both set to defensive/follow. I walked up to a group of three yellow-con minion enemies. I could have killed them all fairly quickly, if I just ordered the pets to attack them one at a time, but I wanted to see the fight play out by using defensive to get my pets fighting.

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That's just it. You were trying to use it in a situation where you didn't need it. Bodyguard isn't supposed to be great in every situation, if it were, there'd be no use for the other MM commands. It's to fix one specific situation, where mobs attack the MM while ignoring the pets. The Defensive stance actually works quite well in this situation.

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I ended up with three enemies attacking, one of my pets fighting back, and the other one just standing there next to me NOT fighting. I had to order an attack to get them both to fight.

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If you want the initiative Attack/Aggressive is a better option. If you need someone to protect you, that's what Bodyguard is for. Try turning on Defensive and attacking foes directly yourself. Defensive works best when you have aggro on you instead of the pets.

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I also tried out the idea of ordering my pets to attack and then quickly order them back to defensive/follow mode. This is no that easy. If you do it too quickly, they never attack. But the longer you wait, you are creating a larger window of bodyguard being down. Bodyguard is starting to seem more like a gamblers power to me.

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You're looking at it the other way. You don't need to be in your shell all the time. If you did, MM's would be horrible right now, and they're really not. Play the game normally as if Bodyguard doesn't exist. Then when you get aggro and start taking direct damage, flip on Bodyguard to get your pets to protect you.

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Sounds great, and is absolutely true in PvE. Nobody really NEEDED bodyguard for PvE, however. What we need it for is PvP, and that is the area in which (from the information given so far) it is going to be sadly lacking.

I like the way the poster made an attempt to test pet responses. I think the fact that you want to dismiss his tests to be extremely nieve. Sure, he didn't NEED to use bodyguard mode, but he was doing it to TEST the reactions of his pets. The confused reactions of his pets are rather typical, as a matter of fact.

What I would suggest (and what I have been working on) is a macro or keybind that will cycle your pets through offensive and BG modes. The one I am working on accesses a text file every time I hit the key to get the next set of orders. Every set of orders takes one group of pets off of bodyguard mode and tells them to attack, simultaneously taking another group off of Attack and setting them to BG duty. This allows for semi effective use of all pets, in a civil war volley style mode of engagement. Do all pets fire at the same time? No. This cuts down the burst damage I am able to dish out, while maintaining fire from all pets and rotating them through BG duty (spreading around any absorbed damage).

Face it. Pets on BG mode are STUPID, and might as well be on passive for the most part (passive would be better in many instances, where the pets aggro and actually run out of supremacy range).

The only way to get the most out of your pets is to actively give them direction. The safest way to avoid having players swoop down and gank us in PvP will be to always maintain a bodyguard contingent of 2-3 pets. Considering the cycle rate of most pet powers, rotating them through BG mode won't adversely effect our longterm DPS, it will only limit our burst damage (which means we'll have a much harder time gettting kills, but we'll also live longer and not have to waste time summoning and buffing new pets as the Devs seem to want us to do.)

No, I'm not happy with the stated implementation of bodyguard, but I definately plan on using it to the best of my ability.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Lemme examine FF ...

You've got Force Bolt...in PvP knockdown is a thing of the past especially for the folks like brutes an tanks and even scrappers an stalkers.

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It's still a detoggler.

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HELLO!!!!! Detoggles are being nerfed!!!!!

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Chances of hitting it twice in a row on anyting are also nil considering even blasters seem to have amazing def (yay APPs).

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So slot for accuracy. *shrug*

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It wasn't me you were responding to, but I wanted to put in my 5 cents
I have 3 accuracy 1 range and 1 recharge in my forcebolt. Slotting of forcebolt isn't the issue. Please address the issue, which is the fact that Bodyguard is making FF secondary virtually useless.

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I'm not asking to "sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy ". I'm asking that my secondary have SOME EFFECT on the combat. You are traps, you have things you can do that will effect the outcome of the fight....you can fight BACK using your secondary. My secondary is supposed to effect the outcome of a fight by allowing my pets to have increased longevity. THAT is what FF is all about...not hiding in my PFF as you suggest. I don't want to use PFF all the time, and I couldn't even if I did since the nerf. You tell me to run away....if I do that I lose the protection of my pets since they can never keep up with me...so the only real solution you are offering is....if I am attacked, put up PFF and run.

Again...Every other secondary for MMs is useful with regard to bodyguard. The ONLY real purpose of FF is to extend the life expectancy of my groupmates and minions....Bodyguard as it stands will bypass the entire purpose of my secondary.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Whats the problem? Your bubbles do exactly what they've always done... End of story.

Under the VERY situational 'oh crap' BG useage, you face the same penalties that all of do, namely that pets get no def or res mitigation of shared damage... But then BG is saving your bacon where you'd normally be toast. If you need to remain under BG for more than a tiny period, you'd have been long dead anyway.

FF is much more group oriented secondary - and its benefits to group members remain unchanged. If your pets are attacked directly, then your bonuses apply - if *you* are being attacked, and order pets into a BG formation, you're in the same situation as any of us - you have a very short amount of leeway now that you should utilise to stop being attacked. And yes, you still have PFF.

Your choice of secondary makes you automatically more suited to group PvP - BG in this situation gives you enough time for group members to help divert the attention of the attackers.

I suggest you group up more.

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You are correct in the fact that minions of ALL MMs have their resistance and defenses ignored. What you are blindly overlooking is the fact that other MM secondary sets provide powers that can be used during that combat, either to fight back or to keep yourself and your pets healed. FF doesn't have the offense, or the healing the other sets provide. The one thing it is SUPPOSED to provide is defense, and now it doesn't even do that. So I'm not exactly in the same situation, am I?

As for your comment about getting other group members...yes, I'll definately be doing that...but it doesn't change the inequity of FF with regard to BG as it is currently being defined, does it?

Please address the point, don't try to side track it.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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I don't have that much experience with FF, but do Force Bolt, Detetion Field and Force Buble really have no effect on combat?

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Forcebolt....4pts of damage with knockback. Anyone with knockback protection can ignore this attack. The only thing about this attack that is useful currently is the detoggling effect, and detoggling is being nerfed as well. Before you say that not all heroes have knockback protection....anyone who PvPs to any serious extent DOES, and its not hard to get through the leaping pool.

Detention field- I can hold someone...oh wait....its not a hold, it phases them so they can't be hurt. Sure, they're not hurting me, but they also can't be effected by the outside world. Whats more, they can activate any powers they want that are self effecting. Detention field tends to allow your target to have time to heal themselves, or give you time to run. It is not a form of combat control. Whats more, it is single target...Dark Miasma has the same power in an AoE form.

Force Bubble...This is marginally crowd control, but it isn't letting me immobilize or hold people, so they have no trouble running away if they are being hurt. This can prevent many players from getting in to melee me and anyone near me, but not all. It provides NO defense against ranged attacks, which is the majority of what tends to be used. Yes, it can make life miserable for some tanks and some scrappers, but not even all of them.

Does FF have slows? no.
Does FF have immobilizes? no.
Does FF have holds? no.
Does FF have damaging attacks? no.
Does FF have fears? no.
Does FF have heals? no.

What does FF have? It has bubbles witch add defense to those I put them on. But wait.....just attack me, my minions will soak up that damage WITHOUT applying their defenses, WITHOUT applying their resistances....yes, this makes virtually my entire secondary USELESS.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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MMs safety comes from hiding behind pets,..

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For starters. The there's your secondary and your power pools powers. The MM secondaries all have some form of control in them. MMs are the best soloing AT out there in PvE, as they combine god-like safety with very nice firepower.


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Incorrect. FF does not have a form of control. All it has is the ability to extend the life expectancy of my group and minions. It doesn't even protect ME all that much. While all of the other secondaries have control or attacks of some sort, FF does NOT. Bodyguard completely bypasses all protection that I can put on my pets, by channeling the damage directly through me.

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I do a lot of PvP missions, as those are the best xp bang for your time bucks. Scrappers and brutes are about kneck-to-kneck the fastest soloers, but they can have problems with different bosses, depending on their build. MMs, otoh, are setup-time slower, and can deal with bosses in pretty much absolute safety. Even if it's a very tough boss, you can kill and run, come back, and take care of it. Only controllers match that safety, but they lack the firepower.

-Jeff

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You do a lot of missions...but how much exp do you have in PvP?

I PvP a LOT...more than any other MM on my entire server. I think I have a right to be more than slightly upset by the fact that my entire secondary is going to be bypassed by players and totally ignored in PvP.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Against AoE attacks...MAYBE. But we still lack any way to fight back effectively (forcebolt hardly counts) we still don't have a way to keep our pets alive, and remember, AoE attacks are a MINORITY of the attacks in the game. The large majority of what people use in PvP are single target. Knowing you can pump damage through the MM and kill the pets easier and faster than attacking the pets themselves (even with AoE attacks) why should anyone every bother attacking a pet? As I said before, Traps, Poison, even Trick Arrow can fight back....Dark Miasma can heal....FF get to sit there and watch our pets die, because our bubbles are IGNORED, and the protection we provide to ourselves is laughable.

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Ok, don't take this as a flame

You seem to be complaining that you have no attacks, and having picked up a supporting secondary (FF) as opposed to a more offensive one (traps/DM/Poison) have little you can offer the fight yourself if you are personally under attack...

Well... Newsflash. That was always going to be the case.

BG is NOT a '100% fix all, sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy whilst he ineffectively plinks at you whilst pets kill him' solution.

BG should be used as an emergency buffer period, where you attempt to place yourself in an advantageous situation - ie. where the enemy is no longer frickin shooting you.

The role of the MM in PvP has not changed - we're never going to be a class that can (or should) stand there toe to toe with a DD class knocking lumps out of each other until one drops. BG should buy you time, and help remove the potential for sudden death - but inevitably, if you're getting hit, you'll want to stop getting hit.

The PRIMARY order given to your pet in PvP should still be an attack order, not a defensive (BG) order. This is how we'll do the majority of our killing. If we start taking hits, then sure, go Def - and run like crazy - then go on the offensive again.

Finally, need I remind you that as a FF user, you have the ultimate option of PFF - massively raising your defense.

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I'm not asking to "sit there in complete and utter safety laughing your [censored] off at the enemy ". I'm asking that my secondary have SOME EFFECT on the combat. You are traps, you have things you can do that will effect the outcome of the fight....you can fight BACK using your secondary. My secondary is supposed to effect the outcome of a fight by allowing my pets to have increased longevity. THAT is what FF is all about...not hiding in my PFF as you suggest. I don't want to use PFF all the time, and I couldn't even if I did since the nerf. You tell me to run away....if I do that I lose the protection of my pets since they can never keep up with me...so the only real solution you are offering is....if I am attacked, put up PFF and run.

Again...Every other secondary for MMs is useful with regard to bodyguard. The ONLY real purpose of FF is to extend the life expectancy of my groupmates and minions....Bodyguard as it stands will bypass the entire purpose of my secondary.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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In PvP, what happens to you now? Presumably, your enemies just ignore your pets and Build Up+Snipe You, or whatever.

Now, if you've got your pets on Defensive/Follow, you're effectively being given up to 75% more HP, drawn from your pets.

Yes, it doesn't really bring your secondary into play, but that's not really different than before, right? Your pets die when you die, and in my experience, it's faster to kill the MM (unless using PFF), and ignore the pets than it is to target the pets.

Is your complaint that bodyguarding won't do anything, or that it won't do enough?

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What I'm saying is that the implementation clearly sets up FF secondary MMs as having huge PvP disadvantages. No other set is having powers bypassed by this implementation. Dark Miasma is actually being BOOSTED tremendously due to their AoE heal. The strength of FF is protection. I don't get the versatility traps, I don't get the offensive load of poison, what I'm supposed to get is defense...not so much for me, but for my minions.

What does this implementation allow heroes to do? They can now bypass all of the bubbles that I put on my pets. Sure, I will live longer. I'm not arguing that. My problem is my secondary is about PROTECTING my minions, and this implementation of Bodyguard allows heroes to bypass all of those defenses, ignore all of my minion's resistances, and simply pour the damage in through ME.

Other MM secondaries will allow you to be doing SOMETHING about it, either fight back, lay traps, use poison, etc. but FF doesn't allow for that, except for forcebolt....a laughably minor damage attack, which if they have acrobatics they can even ignore the knockback effect. Yes, it can detoggle, but even THAT is being nerfed with the detoggling changes...right?? So while Dark Miasma is using their heal, poison is using their various poison attacks, traps can lay down their mortar, triage beacon, poison trap, detonate a minion, etc., Even trick arrow, a set rarely taken, would have ways to fight back.... FF is supposed to do what? I sit there and watch my bots die because my secondary doesn't have any way to fight back...and the defenses it is SUPPOSED to provide are being circumvented by the very power that is keeping me alive. The trouble is 1) I can't run, because I'll run out of bodyguard range of my pets. 2) I can't heal my pets. 3) I can't effectively fight back. Now I get to put up my PFF, run for the safety of the zoneline, just to spend another 5 minutes making and buffing pets again.

Didn't ANYBODY on the design team think this through?

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Are you ignoring the fact that the force fields you apply to your henchmen will still be effective against the AoE attacks targetted against you? They will take their share of damage to you unresisted and undefended in the bodyguard mode, but the part of the AoE attack that targets them will be resisted and defended against. So in this regard forcefield Masterminds will have superior protection against AoE attacks than the other secondary types.

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Against AoE attacks...MAYBE. But we still lack any way to fight back effectively (forcebolt hardly counts) we still don't have a way to keep our pets alive, and remember, AoE attacks are a MINORITY of the attacks in the game. The large majority of what people use in PvP are single target. Knowing you can pump damage through the MM and kill the pets easier and faster than attacking the pets themselves (even with AoE attacks) why should anyone every bother attacking a pet? As I said before, Traps, Poison, even Trick Arrow can fight back....Dark Miasma can heal....FF get to sit there and watch our pets die, because our bubbles are IGNORED, and the protection we provide to ourselves is laughable.

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It sounds like he's upset b/c FF isnt the best 2ndary anymore, lol.

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How very constructive.....

It was always arguable that FF was the best secondary. In fact I would say that most MMs that I see around have Dark Miasma...which plays right into this Bodyguard setup.

What I'm upset about is that while other secondaries have powers that will allow the MM to fight back or heal their pets, my secondary does neither. My secondary is based around protecting my pets, which means there aren't any real attack powers in the set...which means that since damage done to me bypasses all the defenses I put on my pets....virtually my entire secondary is negated.

At least let my bubbles do SOMETHING useful in PvP.

Suriyama

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In PvP, what happens to you now? Presumably, your enemies just ignore your pets and Build Up+Snipe You, or whatever.

Now, if you've got your pets on Defensive/Follow, you're effectively being given up to 75% more HP, drawn from your pets.

Yes, it doesn't really bring your secondary into play, but that's not really different than before, right? Your pets die when you die, and in my experience, it's faster to kill the MM (unless using PFF), and ignore the pets than it is to target the pets.

Is your complaint that bodyguarding won't do anything, or that it won't do enough?

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What I'm saying is that the implementation clearly sets up FF secondary MMs as having huge PvP disadvantages. No other set is having powers bypassed by this implementation. Dark Miasma is actually being BOOSTED tremendously due to their AoE heal. The strength of FF is protection. I don't get the versatility traps, I don't get the offensive load of poison, what I'm supposed to get is defense...not so much for me, but for my minions.

What does this implementation allow heroes to do? They can now bypass all of the bubbles that I put on my pets. Sure, I will live longer. I'm not arguing that. My problem is my secondary is about PROTECTING my minions, and this implementation of Bodyguard allows heroes to bypass all of those defenses, ignore all of my minion's resistances, and simply pour the damage in through ME.

Other MM secondaries will allow you to be doing SOMETHING about it, either fight back, lay traps, use poison, etc. but FF doesn't allow for that, except for forcebolt....a laughably minor damage attack, which if they have acrobatics they can even ignore the knockback effect. Yes, it can detoggle, but even THAT is being nerfed with the detoggling changes...right?? So while Dark Miasma is using their heal, poison is using their various poison attacks, traps can lay down their mortar, triage beacon, poison trap, detonate a minion, etc., Even trick arrow, a set rarely taken, would have ways to fight back.... FF is supposed to do what? I sit there and watch my bots die because my secondary doesn't have any way to fight back...and the defenses it is SUPPOSED to provide are being circumvented by the very power that is keeping me alive. The trouble is 1) I can't run, because I'll run out of bodyguard range of my pets. 2) I can't heal my pets. 3) I can't effectively fight back. Now I get to put up my PFF, run for the safety of the zoneline, just to spend another 5 minutes making and buffing pets again.

Didn't ANYBODY on the design team think this through?

Dr. Corvus, I like the way you crunched the numbers to show the usefulness of Bodyguard.

Personally, my problem with Bodyguard is the fact that it bypasses my entire secondary line. I am a FF secondary. I put bubbles on my minions every 4 minutes to extend their lives and make them more durable. Bodyguard, if implemented as described, will have all of the damage I pass to my minions bypass the bubbles completely! What good is my secondary now?

In PvP, why should any hero target my pets? They are harder to hit than I am, and have more resistance. Now, heroes can pump damage into me, and if I don't have bodyguard set, fine...I die just as fast as I always have (faster because now I can't fade in and out of PFF). If I do have bodyguard set, they can kill my pets by attacking me, and they will kill them FASTER and EASIER than if they attacked them directly. My set doesn't come with a heal, like Dark Miasma, my set depends on PROTECTING my minions and making them harder to kill. All bodyguard does is make my minions EASIER to kill.

I guess if you want to PvP post I7 as an MM, you better have Dark Miasma as your secondary, because FF is going to be pretty worthless.

Yes, bodyguard will extend my life expectancy, but it does so at the cost of my entire secondary.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Personally, I think there was a much better way to deal with this Mastermind PvP problem, so I think I'll post it and see what everyone thinks.

What if, instead of dying the second their mastermind bites it, the henchmen continued fighting? What if they doggedly chased the person who killed their leader until either he/she or they themselves are dead?

This would change the dynamic. Suddenly the hero would have to make the tactical decision "Is that attackless Mastermind really my primary target?" I think this would give MMs higher survivability because, most of the time, the enemy would naturally come to the conclusion that the top tier pet is the primary target and the MM himself, along with his lower tier minions, is more the mop-up material instead

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No, this wouldn't help. The problem is that MM pets lack movement powers, which means that anyone who kills the MM and runs is going to get away. Even if the pets do follow him, they will draw all sorts of aggro from NPCs and will be killed, thus removing any threat.

Having minions survive the MM is definately not the answer. What we need, what we've been begging for, is a way to convince players they need to kill our minions (at least some of them) BEFORE they kill us.

If there were a 20% chance per minion in supremacy range (even if they were set for bodyguard, such as it is now) for any attack aimed at the MM to hit a random pet instead, THEN players would find it necessary to target specific pets rather than the MM.

5-6 pets one of them automatically takes the hit
4 pets 80% chance
3 pets 60% chance
2 pets 40% chance
1 pet 20% chance

Doing this would encourage players to take down specific pets, rather than allowing damage to be randomly dealt to whatever pet jumps in the way. It would also still allow the pets to use their defenses and resistances against the attack (which the current setup doesn't do....it is currently easier to kill minions by targeting the MM who is easier to hit, and simultaneously bypasses all resistances the pets may have.

We want a reason for our PETS to have to be targeted....NOT US. All that bodyguard in its current implementation will do is insure that WE are the targets, and never our pets....THAT is the problem....that, and the fact that FF users can't help protect their minions under the new system. This just made FF pretty worthless.....and made Dark Miasma very powerful due to its AE heal.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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So as a Robot/FF mastermind, I had to have a 2 min timer on PFF...WHY?

Please explain to me why it is that the damage I take goes to my minions and IGNORES their resistances and defenses! They should still get a chance to apply their own resistances. Lets assume it automatically hits, because they are leaping in front of the attack or some such, so they don't get their defense...ok.....why don't their RESISTANCES apply?????

I took forcefield so I could help DEFEND my minions...now I'm happy they can help defend me, but I'm not at all happy about the way all the bubbles that I take the time to renew every 4 minutes ARE IGNORED!

Why should any hero in PvP ever target a robot? They're harder to hit than I am, and they would get to apply their resistances to the damage. NOW, the heroes can just attack me directly. I'm MUCH easier to hit, I have FAR fewer resistances, and the damage will get transferred to the minions anyway!

We wanted a reason for the heroes to have to kill our minions. You just gave a solid reason for them to NEVER target them.

Sure, this is better than nothing...but it sure wasn't very well thought out. This may be a nice boost for PvE (which we didn't need a boost for) but it will be of little help in PvP which was where we were hurting.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
Justice

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Your using you a gut guesstimate of how you think things will turn out. I've learn not to trust my initial gut guesstimates in certain areas. Math is one of them. I need to work through the numbers before I make a judgement. I think you need to as well. Let's make it very apparent of how good a thing this really is for Masterminds.

2000 pts of damage on you, all 6 pets in Bodyguard mode.

Total parts = 8 (2 parts for you and 1 part for each henchman)

For for you 2000 * (2 / 8) = 500 pts

OUCH! But at level 40, you are still on your feet.

For you henchies

2000 * ( 1 / 8) = 250 pts

Most vulnerable is Tier 1 pet. They have 505 Health at level 40. Tier 1 pet are at almost 1/2 Health. But they are still up. Your higher tier pets are in even better shape.

Now let's look at the results. You just to an attack of a magnitude that only an Arch-Villain/Hero can throw. You are hurt pretty bad, but you are still on your feet. You pets are in rough shape but still on their feet. And they are now responding to the damage in kind. And you think this is a bad thing?

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Most MMs have been asking for something to help us in PvP situations, NOT PvE. We were originally told that the boost for MMs would be a PvP buff, which would help us also in PvE. I do just fine in PvE even without bodyguard, because I'm not the one drawing the aggro. What we need is something to help with heroes automatically targeting the MM instead of the pets in PvP. This buff, while it will extend the life expectancy of an MM, is not going to change the fact that the MM is the primary, and probably ONLY target. Why should any hero target your pets, which are harder to hit than you are, and have more resistance than you do? Now they can target you, and pump all that damage through to kill your pets faster than they could if they targeted them specifically. And if you DON"T use them on bodyguard, all the better....your'e dead already.

My entire secondary is designed to help protect my minions. This power, while nice at prolonging my own life, allows heroes to ignore all the bubbles I put out there and kill my pets without having to worry about their defenses OR resistances. At least dark miasma can use their AE heal. My secondary is about PROTECTING my pets, and now that protection can be completely bypassed! Sure, my life expectancy is now extended, but at the cost of virtually my entire secondary!

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Currently I see MMs with 5 minions roam freely near the hero base able to inflict heavy damage without going down (in single combat - 1 squishy hero vs 1 MM w/minions). I think it would be fair to add a shared 'effect' on the MM too, so that if the MM got mezzed or held, those minions in bodyguard would also be effected. The total time effected could be cut/shared by this same 2-1 ratio.

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You want to NERF MMs? Excuse me??? We have the lowest health, after dying it takes us several minutes before we can get back into the game, our pets draw aggro everywhere we go, and we're constantly ganked by players who simply ignore the pets.

This MIGHT help with the last part, but I'm not very hopeful. I think it will simply promote people using TP foe to bring us away from our pets long enough to 1 shot us. This "buff" has varrying degrees of usefulness depending on the type of minions you use, but also depending on the secondary you have. This is going to be extremely useful for darm miasma users, since they can heal all of their pets at once. Not very useful for FF users, because not only do we lack a heal, but the damage we "share" with our pets bypasses their resistances and defenses...making all the bubbling we do WORTHLESS. Why should any hero ever attack a pet, knowing they're harder to hit, and harder to hurt once they are hit, than the MM is. People will be able to kill my pets faster by simply pumping damage into ME than targeting one specific pet after another.

I can't believe someone actually came in here crying for us to be nerfed so that status effects get shared also.

Have you played an MM in PvP? Do you even have a clue what its like, how frustrating and difficult? If not, don't call for Nerfs, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Suriyama
40 bots and bubbles
400 PvP rep
Justice