The_Rad

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Wow this is a cool feature I recommend it to everyone.

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Again, it's a ridiculous time scale versus reasonable ones. People have no problem getting beaten by someone who spends their time practicing SKILLS. HamiO's are ITEMS. We hope to have the devs see the light on this one. MMO vets such as myself have seen them break the routine MMO mold many times before so we are holding out hope.

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If you want a level playing field for PvP, an MMORPG is not the place to find it. I suggest you go over and find some Quake 3 Arena, or perhaps UT2K4.


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I would like to point out that Quake, Battlefield:blah or starcraft have immense player bases and continue to be played for a long long time.

On the flip side nearly every MMORPG has a PvP that is played by less than 20% of their entire player base.

Gee I wonder which one of those is doing things the right way and which is doing things the wrong way....

To me that says that there is something far more successful in FPS PvP then MMORPG PvP it also say that PvP with out loot, in and of itself can be a very effective endgame.

So it is dangerous to make suggestions about FPS and RTSs. When in my opinion we should all be asking why are they so successful and why is PvP in every MMORPG so unsuccessful. At the very least it not a reason to be looking at past MMOs for "helpful" tips on what makes good PvP.

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Hmm I dont think its a problem. Now if you don't like fighting Hami, don't do it.
It may mean that some (I think a much smaller percentage than popularly thought) will beat you in PVP. So What? If you get beaten by that much and know someone is using them, don't compete against him again. The end problem solved.
I think that a lot of small guilds of Non-HamiOs will form, and you can compete with them. In fact I think that if nothing is done to change the current situation with HamiO's in the arena. People will very quickly figure it out for them selves. Someone can lie about not having HamiOs. But he can only do it once or twice before everyone knows who he is. Especialy now that we can all see his global handle, (he wont be able to try with different toons.)
For the most part, people will be honest about it and we'll be able to solve these issues easily I think.

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I suspect this was the Devs intial impression of how thing would work as well. However I think in both cases this is naive. People take the path of least resistance and if a requirement to play in PvP is to keep track of all the level 50s on your server I am thinking the easiest way is to just forget that noise.
I think there will be ALOT of SG internal PvP because thats a no hassle enviroment the Sg will set the ground rules, however for PvP to be successful it will need to be much more robust than this.

Finally speaking to how much of an edge HOs give in PvP.
I have it as second hand information, so take with salt, that a fully HOed regen scrapper can heal from 1hp to full health in less than 3 seconds. I am guessing that is an insurmountable edge in singles competition and in a group fight this would most likely neccesiate a containment rather than defeat strategy.

Seriously can even the most powerful HOed blaster output 200% of a scrappers health in under 3 seconds? Assuming that they could put out that much damage can they simultaneosly overcome reintegration and dull pain?

So finally after scores of pages we at long last come full circle back to my original, my final, my virtually unassailable arguement.

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The whole point is to increase Arena participation by increasing the number of options. I want you to have the choice of facing me with or without your loot. Simple. If you don't want to fight me without your loot, then *walk away*.


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This is the point they miss - one way or another the no-HO heroes will avoid the full-HO heroes. Either by using an Option (if added) or by limiting/skipping PvP (if an option isn't added).

What we're really arguing over is the PvP participation of the players who can't/won't farm Hami. Will we be given in-game tools to avoid the Cleens out there, or will we avoid *everyone* because that was the only *good* option left.

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Thats it.
Thats the one everyone seems so desperate to duck and avoid.
Thats the one that all the "I wannas" in the world have to do deal with.

You can argue all the other stuff that you want. How much work, how much skill whatever turns your crank. It does not matter at all.

The only thing that matters is what the majority of people will do and how much Cryptic cares.

I submit that the HOs will be a massive advantage in PvP.
I submit that most people will not farm Hamidon under any circumstances.
I also submit that most people will not abide excessively loosing to any one reason.
Finally I submit that it is in the best interest, of CoH, Cryptic, and the players to have a healthy heavily used PvP system.

From this I conclude the following.[*] Players will opt out of getting decimated by HOs one way or the other[*] If the only way out is to avoid PvP then it shall be so.[*] If the majority of players avoid PvP. Then PvP is an effective failure.[*] The failure of PvP will be bad for CoH.

I honestly believe that most players will not farm the Hamidon and nothing will convice them to do so. I also believe that the success of PvP, and perhaps a large part of CoH, will depend on enticing as many people as possible into parcipating. People will not play PvP only to loose so Hamidon enchancers are not just a killer in PvP but will be a killer TO PvP.

I strongly suspect that CoH stands on the backs of a dedicated casual base and pushing back skills to issue 5 left a bad taste in their mouths, now to strike them in the face with issue 4 maybe more than many of them can bare.

My sole stake in this disccusion is to illuminate for Statesman and the Devs what I think is a very serious issue and one I sincerely believe will prove to be a problem. It is my hope the Devs will make an informed choice in this matter and not simple choose the expiedent and potentially detremental choice of satifying the "hardcore players" at the expense of the majority.

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Well, if you read Statesman's post, for now, that's how its going to be.

I don't think rank matches should have ANY restrictions whatsoever. Not just HOs.

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Well this is just a frighteningly naive statement.

So you think that a level 50 hero engaging a level 2 hero should have no restrictions and should count against the level 50 heros win/loss record.

And you can't see an issue with that?

Or are you saying that two level 50s square off and it should be everything goes?

Which is still quite naive but at least not frighteningly so.

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I really like the TF reward idea.

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Give me an impossibly hard 8 person TF and I will lead a small tight group to blow it up on a regular basis and god forbid have some fun along the way instead of the much lauded "work" of farming hami. I won't setup a minimum 25 person popularity contest every day. I don't pay a monthly fee to do "work".

Many people are expecting CoH to jump the shark on this one and take a big dive...dare to disappoint them.

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I agree with the "jump the shark" comment. The possiblity for that moment definatly exists in issue 4. The Arena could well be the single greatest make or break point in the game to date.

Sadly Sprite has their commercial wrong IMAGE IS EVERYTHING. The mere perception of vitally important loot could do irreperable damage to CoH before the Devs even get the chance to respond.

On HOs in TFs:
It should be all high level trials and Taskforces. Most importantly there should be one trial(can be as hard as you like) that takes less than 2 hours and gives a HO as the reward.

For example giving HOs for completing the Shadow Shard TFs is NOT an exceptable compromise. The shadow shard TF is too long and too annoying, farming that would be ten times worse then farming the Hamidon. Keep in the mind that point is to give out enough HOs to equal the playing field.

Allow me to blunt.
Attacking the Hamidon deserves no respect what so ever.
The only respect that can be claimed for fighting the Hamidon is the first two times an given raider leader leads a raid, then and ONLY then the leader deserves respect.
Being a well trained monkey and repeatedly engaging in a simple and monotous task, no matter how much you like it, means nothing and earns you nothing.
So spare me any "I fought Hamidon and that means something" arguements. The respec trial is signifcantly harder and more time consuming then the Hamidon.
If you actually think the Hamidon is some greatly chellenging foe then in my opinion you should re-evaulate your ability to play CoH.

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There's always a way to rig a fight in your favor in MMOG's, and the people who have HO's slotted in all of their powers are generally the type of people who will try to find that way.

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This would seem to be a variant of the "if we cannot make it perfect then why try at all" argument. Applied to all aspects of the game nothing would change - someone will find a way to 'rig' PvE content so why bother correcting Burn or Smoke Grenade or Wolf Farming?

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I am not suggesting that they leave in a known exploit, I am trying to point out that if you really wanted a completely even playing field, this is not the genre of game you want to play. This game, and any other RPG, will always, by design, have a way for someone to improve their character to it's fullest extent. I am not trying to suggest that they "do not try at all" to do that would be ignorant. What I am suggesting is that they try and make it more even by giving people other options than the Hamidon raid to get these enhancements.

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This is a false or misunderstood arguement.
Most people do not expect or even want perfect parity in their game play. So none of this has anything to do with achieving perfect game balance. Instead what must be done is preventing serious game IMBALANCE. You have to flip your view of the situation around and come at it from the other end. It is not perfect balance that must be sought, but rather perfect power that must be avoided.


To clarify:
An empathy defender does not need to be able to go tit-for-tat with every other AT.

This is what is being argued. Making all the weakest equal to the strong. This is not the actual arguement though.

A regen scrapper MUST not be able to dominate all other ATs in PvP.

This is what people expect and want in PvP.
The real argument is that there must be many powerful play styles in PvP. No one single method must be allowed to dominate or PvP dies or horrible whimpering death.

Hamidon enhancements are a slight weaker sub-set of this arguement.
HOs will most likely allow perfect domination. Those that have repeatedly farmed the Hamidon will win and those that have not, will not.

The Hamidon is a gate in PvP that MUST be passed through to seriously partcipate. Most people will never willing choose to pass through the gate so most people will not be seriously partcipating in PvP.

So I again I say these people do not need to know that every thing will be perfectly balanced they simply need to know that they have a REASONABLE fighting chance.

It is ok to walk into a battle expecting to be out skilled, out thought, or out built. It is even exceptable, expecially if made up for in other areas, for your AT to be outclassed by most others.
It is NOT ok to walk into a every battle already knowing that you have lost for no reason other than "everyone losses against a regen scrapper" or "you are fighting a HO hero".

Perfect domination = Perfect PvP death

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Why are some people rich and others poor?

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The problem with these work-for-it arguments is that they forget the *other* capitalistic system at work here - Cryptic wants to sell product.

Unlike real-life the 'poor' can (and do!) opt out. Think about it: who's gonna pay to be poor?

If Cryptic fails to deliver something that works for the 'poor' then Cryptic stands to lose a chunk of their customers. If its a big enough chunk then Cryptic suffers.

And all your talk of work-for-it means diddly-squat compared to that.

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So, the 'successful' MMORPG rewards non-effort and effort equally, allowing nothing to distinguish the two?


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This is in fact 100% correct. the most succesful MMORPGs always mitigate the work-for-it impact. Usually by dividing the game into multiple "divisions," warriors, socialites, crafters, leaders. Some take great amount of work some do not.

I do point out that all the strongest North American MMO are selling on brand name with the exception of CoH. Even CoH is selling on a brand of sorts... superheros.

Many of the games that pushed the work-for-it mentality spiked in there membership at first and have been steadly dwindling ever since.
The MMO that wants to be truely successful will need to break with the way things were done, since that obviously does not work well for long term retention, and innovate.

CoH is the smallest of the big boy MMOs (over 120k subcribers) if they want to stay that way they need to find their nitch. They gambled by their "nitch" a very light work-for-it attitude type game. If they decide to change they are making a very dangerous gamble. It is the Developers decision however I do point out that AC, AO, Eve and all the other true equals of CoH are failing for the exact same work-for-it attitude.

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Umm... character development (leveling, timesink, EFFORT) is one of the major, if not the major, dividing line between an MMO and an FPS.

Which do you want to play? An MMO? Or a large, persistant-world FPS?

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Developing your character is the major difference not leveling, timesinks, or effort. While effort is of course a positve quality, to argue that anything in CoH remotely resembles the amount of effort required by most other MMOs is simply idiotic. This has obviously worked very much in favor of Cryptic in the Past. If they now decide that the timesink methodology supported by other MMOs is the way the game need to go i personally think they will be making a grave error.

The hamidon and it reward structure is not like anything that has existed in CoH previously. The hamidon is a "choke point" in a game perviously without any "choke points." It redefines the entire way the game is played and I doubt many people who play CoH will like the defination.

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Instead of pushing for no HO's and what not why not push for more ways to get muti-O's.

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People have asked for this.

Only problem I see is heavy HO heroes making PvP too fast.

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I am noy so sure time will be limiting factor since you could just add lives or play in massive groups.

I do think there maybe other significant balance issues however.[*]Fortitude slotted out with HOs gives ... impressive results.[*]Radiation Infection slotted out with HOs is a huge ACC AND Def debuff. [*]300% accuracy is its own obvious problem.[*]What role do certain defender types play when people are at the damage cap and near perfect accuracy.[*]What role is there for power pool def powers?[*]How tough is a regen scrapper with HOs in their heals[*]How powerful is a defender's HO enhanced heal?[*] Even i a controller can rarely get a hold on someone how bad is it going to be when the hold lasts forever?

There are alot of little issue that could crop up. They may never matter maybe the devs have them accounted for all this but by the numbers it looks like HOs will signifcantly limit employable strategies and methods of victory.

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with the new drop system, it will be MUCH MUCH harder for someone to spec out their toon, since less HOs drop and Hami spawns less often, and is a little harder. The real problem will be that most characters will get useless HOs, and may have trouble trading them. so, the problem has been stalled... now it really will take endless farming to spec out your toon.

I'm not sure very many people will be interested in doing that, and thus it won't be a noticable or glaring problem.

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I think your being almost hopelessly naive. For starts, by your own admission, you have at least 40. I would extend that to you and your SG. So this is a monsterous advantage to you and your SG. Assuming that you are not intersted in victory by any means but instead want victory by battle. Then this should obviously be a serious situation.

Second to imply that some players will not grind endlessly on the Hamidon to gain advanatge in PvP is ludicrious. The only thing that will happen is the number will drop. So instead of 100 mega elite super players there will 10 mega elite super players. If you want health PvP then there must be no mega elite super players at all. That is not to say no one should have loot, and all classes need to be exactly equal. But more to say that anything that allows one small group of players to absolutely dominate in PvP should be blunted/removed/controlled otherwise PvP as whole suffers.

An important caveat here is that a group that dominates through raw skill is still bad for PvP but at least earns respect. Nothing can be done to prevent highly skilled players from total domination and they must be weathered by the PvP community. From what I have seen the end result is usually a spike in PvP as people try to beat them, then a collapse in PvP as they prove their superority and finally a rebirith in PvP when they get bored and move on. The same happens in sports so should hardly come as a great surprise. These people however do not need any help and most certainly all the idiots players that try to imitate these hyper-skilled players do not need or deserve any additional crutchs.

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all enhancements are loot. the whole game already is loot based. this player paradigm that its not has been flawed from the start. The point is the only loot thats relatively difficult to get (i.e. you cant just purchase it) is HOs and 51+ SOs.

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Seriously don't be rediclous.
Your either splitting hairs or have never played in ANY other MMORPG ever. There is loot and there is LOOT. It should be obvious to even the most dunderheaded cantalope that HOs are LOOT.

Dude seriously all enhancements are loot? Thats just grasping at straws.

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So, what I can glean from the forums is that the high end PvP is going to be mostly Power Leveling Hamidon Farmers... I'll pass thx.

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Two things about this...

One, if they're PL'ed and have not played their character outside the arena... they will get trashed by anyone who has any kind of clue how to play their toon. Two, what you are hearing comes from a very vocal minority. You look in one thread about PL'ing and expect to get an unbiased, complete look at the makeup of the lvl 50 crowd? At least look around a little more before you come to this conclusion.

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I suspect this is not entirely true. I suspect some builds will be close to broken powerful as it is, slotting these out with HOs will make them supremely dominate. So much so that even the most skilled player may not be able to beat a player so elevated on crutchs.

Think of it like being a truely awesome player in a FPS then crank all the hamdicaps up on yourself and all teh bonuses on your foe. At certain point it will be too much for you to overcome.

The most hardcore players are going to powerlevel up the most uber ATs and then HO them out. This is a double advantage that will be especially punishing and will have PvP lurching from rebalance to rebalance. I doubt that it will be very rare that skill will triumph in these situations the advantage will be far too steep. While a regen scrapper could be brutally effective a fulled HOed regen scrapper will obliterate all who stand against them.

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The flip side of course is that it widens the gap between the haves and the have nots. Guys who raked in 50 of these on 10 raids now have to be matched by someone in PvP who is going to have to run 50 raids.

Just more insanity brought to PvP by Hamidon.

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I have to say this change honestly stuns me. In my opinion this is a NERF. AS I said before I beielve a nerf is when devs attempt to fix an issue but miss the mark and have other negative impacts.

This Hamidon nerf is huge. I literally LITERALLY now have to farm the Hamidon 40+ times. Thats for ONE character to be viable in high end PvP. Its not that can not farm the hamidon that many times I farmed rebel base 100s of times however then as now I still hate farming.

This "brilliant" new change jsut made the climb to full PvP capability that much longer. 40 hamidons a character is one monster of a hoop I got to jump through.

The funnest part about this change is that everyone who has a jillion HOs for their earlier farming now gets and even larger leg up on everyone else. So this makes the HO problem x10 times worse but hey at least people can not whine about griefing anymore.
Now its HAVES and HAVE NOTS and one helluva gap between the two.

Brilliant design choice, just like giving hurricane to level 5 shockers.

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you know i could almost get behind a NO-ENHANCEMENTS fight option.

knock everyone down to 0 enhancements and see how they go, it could be quite fun.

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It would be interesting but I think some powers and in fact some sets are balanced around the need for specific slots to be "wasted" on them.

EF for example, everyone slots it nearly the extact same way which really amount to just sinking slots into the power to make it managable.
There are other powers like this as well Ice I would rate as another candiate swaping out accuracy for damage and slow.

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That is exactly what I am talking about. Any +dmg buff that a Defender can give becomes worthless to people with six-slotted Hami-Os. Hell people in that thread are talking about dropping Build Up because they have Hami-Os. If that isn't a bad sign I don't know what is.

I would be interested to know if HOs can cap people's Def as well.

When you think about it HOs are really only hurting the Defenders and, to a lesser extent, Controllers. What the hell do you need support classes for if you can reach the cape on your powers without their buffs?

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HOs can not cap +def as far as one can tell there is no defense cap.
HOWEVER there seems to be no accuracy cap either and HOs do boost accuracy so in a completely reverse fashion HOs may kill the viability of +def.

Before you start screamming the sky is falling however keep in mind no one knows how things really work, apprently there is some another theory on +def that could in theory take care of this problem.
The maxed damage thingy does not bode well for that solution but it is a possiblity.

Also an enemy team had kinetics defender could not that defender debuff their damage? So boosting damage would be useful then.

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I think the insanely short line of sight will make stuff like that unviable. you wont be able to jump at moving targets because they'll dissapear when you get to far. I mean 75 feet isn't even the full range of a blasters level 1 attack.

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Going off topic
The line of sight is reduced to 75ft? or it natually 75ft?
Anyway I bet that is irrelevant since keep the person targtted, jump up float and hit the f key as you come down OR jump up float about and target a friend as you come down.
That all equal da big pain in the but, solved by one so very simple clicky.
There naturally will be no holds barred matchs but I doubt that will be the choice of the majority.

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I would just like to say that I am amazed at how big an issue this has become. Both sides have made some good points, however I think I have a compromise that might work for everyone.
Treat the HOs as like merit badges for level 50s who can't level any more. Then use the HO count of a player to determine the extended weight class of that hero.

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I was thinking about this as well.
It really depends on how the devs points system works.
If its a hard split between weights, so you get no point when out of your league then they may as well split the HO user into the another league.

If it is some sort of weighted point system, and a level 20 who beats a level 50 get more points then a 50 who beats a level 20 then yeah they definatly should make the HOs have weight.
Doesn't even have to be a badge system just an a background weighting system.

Finally if the devs are going to use some totally insane open system where everyone is in the same unweighted ladder and level 50s are at the top and level 2s are at the bottum then....UNG!!! Howewer I suppose the one advantage is that the ladder would be a measue of sheer power. At least until I convince eveyone to take a dive against my level 4 hero.

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there should be an option to tone down hamis, SOs, DOs, or even no ench mode. but it should be an optional rule, like the no travel powers setting. It shouldn't be a completely segregated deal.

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Which I am guessing amounts too no option.
Everything thinks no travel power switch thats fine no big deal, BUT after the first week of PvP play that no travel power switch will probabbly be on 99% of the time.

Everyone likes to think in silly predictable patterns, Ooo super speed jousts and slowing them down and blah blah blah.

No one ever stops to consider how truely outrageous flight will be, or even worse super jump.
Hmm... I jump beside you hit you with my best attack then jump up, float about for abit, moving too fast to be effected by much, then come down land beside your most vulernable friend smash them with my full attack chain and POP back into the air, rinse and repeat. It's defianatly a good tactic but it is SO good that it will just destablize everything and no one will want to deal with it. Generally just too much of a headache.

Same deal with HOs they will cause crazy distablization and no one will want te have to deal with it.

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for the challenge?

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A reasonable answer as long as it is an exhibition bout and not going to be held against me in anyway.

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yeah there should be a no-hamidon class for 45-50 too. I agree.

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Then sir we have an accord

Vote yes to the Cosmic/titan weight class.

PS:
Also I am not sure why you have 1 star so I am going to give you 4 until I catch you saying something really stupid
At the very least you can see other people's viewpoints, express an willingness to listen and compromise all superb qualities for anyone to have in a disscussion.

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/huge snip

Of course the devs can change from what they currently plan. That's why we're talking this over now - to try to get the system that seems most fair tested at the start. Otherwise, we end up with the terribleness of:

1. Initial system unfair;
2. Ubernerfing of things that seem unfair, and often nothing happen to some unfair aspects;
3. Unanticipated consequences of the ubernerfing, involving even more nerfing and power adjustments;
4. Even more unanticipated consequences;
5. Rinse and repeat until something more evenhanded is implemented.


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This is by far my greatest and very real fear. I define a nerf a little differently then most people. To me a nerf is when the WRONG aspect of a game is reduced to balance out some problem. So bascially the devs miss the mark and smite the wrong thing.

In SWG this happened literally all the time they kept smiting and kept missing the problem or smited with such horrible vengance that they got the problem and everything else as well. In CoH the Devs have a much better track record, this is half due to superior insight and half do to some very weak half-nerfs.

However the potential for the careening teeter-totter of insanity rises dramatically when something of "value" really goes on the line. Which it always does in PvP. Also once people start screaming the level headed people that "correctly" identified the problem get out shouted.

You have no reason to believe what I say but I personally have had a very good track record with identifying core issues/problems that may/will cause problems. I also have a very nearly perfect track record of getting out shouted and ignored. I listed 12 things that I though were of some concern in issue 2 before it went live, all of which were ignored, all of which generated tremendous amounts of shrill screaming, and all of which were finally dealt with.


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* * *

That is why "wait and see" is just pointless. It just delays things if there are reasons to change things before the initial test PvP come out. We know without much doubt what's going to happen with their current plan. You think it's OK? Great, let's discuss. You think it's not OK? Great, let's discuss. But there's no point in putting our heads in the sand.

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A stitch in time saves nine.
I am glad that this is getting dealth with now so that in the future the shrill screams not deafen us all and the nerf rollercoaster can be avoided.
Of also deep importance the clearer and more fundamental arguements are being made from both sides this will sure get lost as PvP comes closer and closer to live.

All too soon the self-righteous proclamtions of "Me NO HOs then me go", or "I hate loot and will never ever stand for it never ever ever no matter what remove it all NOW and I will settle for no less." will start to arrive. Or better those that hate PvP with an irratinal and all consuming passion.

Oh wait they already have....

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I'll clarify it for you... what he is saying is that until we can actually GET OUR HANDS ON PVP, we cannot tell how it will work and if the numbers are the same for PvP as they are for PvE. More specifically, the exemplar feature. How EXACTLY are HO's going to be effected by being lowered to SO's... are the numbers going to add up to one SO, or are there going to be multiple aspects of the powers that are enhanced as though by an SO? Who knows? Statesman

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I think it is worth pointing out here that I hardly need to have a simulation run to know that the army with 10k troops has a rather large advantage over the army with 5k.

However I do agree that numbers are never the full story and in fact often lie. So while the basics of a double league should are being worked up go ahead and test HOs and NO HO in duels.

I fully believe that certain types of solid teams No HOers could take down a HO team. I am also fairly sure that a fully HOed MA/Regen scrapper will decimate any other non-HO scrapper in a one on one duel.

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/snip
Personaly I am not interested in the solo ranking system. Where I see the real fun is in an out-of-game organised team league. There may be different flavour leagues using different PvP options (HOs or no HOs, travel powers or no travel powers) so as long as we can change the options we can take part in the type of PvP we enjoy. Additionally, I can imagine that these leagues will take place on the test server. This way you can roll a pure PvP build without effecting your PvE build, as long as you keep one respec on your live server you can respec as many times as you like on test to tune your build, plus teams from all servers will be able to compete. And related to this thread, if you want to play in a HO league and a non HO league you can copy your character to the test server twice.

/snip again


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I am guessing this is the way the Dev team sees PvP as well. I am guessing they are hoping for more player leagues and players to make thier own rules and their own fun then Dev controlled leagues.

I am not sure that is a practicaly or realistic though. As a rule of thumb mobs (aka masses of people) are pretty stupid and kinda easy way out.
Which means that I think most players are going to heavily favor the Dev leagues, more so then the Devs probably expect. If for no other reason then neutral arbittration. By creating the leagues the Devs are in effect taking the positions of judges or referees not a poistion I think the Devs want or are expecting but nonetheless that is the case.
This is going to lead to ALOT of "fine tuning" in PvP in general and the league system in particular.

If however the Devs don't want this I would suggest to them to not have any leagues but instead heavily support player based leagues.
The flip side of this is that a player based league will be very he said/she said. Leading to alot of unresolvable squabbles.

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Two highest level ladders one a HOdown and one a NO HO zone, where is the problem with this? Is this not win win?

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Sure, if you can come up with the point where HO's go from being a minor advantage to a major one. 2 HO's won't likely be enough to make the person who has them sloted unbeatable. 12 most likely will. So how many HO's does it take to get put on the HO ladder?

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I think Zero tolerance would be the easiest solution.
One allows HOs the other does not plain and simple.
If the player that has 2 HOs does not like this then they seem to have to reasonable options:
1) Farm the Hamidon for more
2) Remove their HOs vis repsec or reslotting

While clearly not the optiamly solution for poor "Mr I gots me 5!!!!"
I can not see their being a point in spliting up the top ladder further especially when those that are slotting HOs are in effect saying bring it, on anything goes.

Two options go HO or just say no.

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and trust me, there is nothing common or unheroic about taking down the hamidon.

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Yeah, beating on a held foe that cannot retaliate is the heart of every good hero story.

[/ QUOTE ]Do you know how many peopel die in a hami raid, its not just throw a hold on him and its over, its freakin hard, it takes good teamwork to pull it off

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O.o

Dude
Seriously your level 50.
I mean seriously Dude.
Level 50.
Dude