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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:How embarrassing that The Television's reading choices would be so transparent. Yes, I was definitely thinking about Pynchon's style of "historiographic metafiction" and "Against the Day" in particular, though you'll notice I ended up leaving out some bits of his style like character development, magical-realism and, well, quality writing. Looking back, I hope it wasn't just the quaternion references that gave it away.edit: also wondering if you were recently reading "Against the Day"
Good catch, Retrogression.
To everyone else: I apologize for my use of the term "historiographic metafiction" above. It won't happen again. -
Good for you! Season two of your favorite shows are finally on the air. It feels like it's been Aions of tortured 3rd class, checkout-lane celebrity biography. You feel the need to sit down and watch some television.
1. Fuzzy Questions:
a. So, be honest, how much fun is your job, really? I mean, are you livin the gamer geek's dream, or is it way more work than you ever thought it would be?
I don’t know. I love my job, and I love CoV, but I’m not sure that there is much intersection between what I enjoy about either one. A big part of what I love about CoV is the amazing community of players we have. My job is about developing for that community and playing the game is about participating in it. There is some overlap in required knowledge, but not much overlap in the activity or thought process involved.
Example: The most powerful moments in my experience with CoV have been as much about the silly or serious conversations I’m having in-game as they are the content I’m playing. The content is necessary in order for those conversations to happen, but think how far abstracted programming is from the impromptu communication that comes out of it. Posting on the forums is the closest I’ve come to bringing the two experiences together, but with all the great stuff coming for Paragon and the prestige demands of my SG, I don’t always have the time I’d like to post.
b. What is The Television's favorite television program??
The Television is not so vain that it watches itself, though it does Netflix and Amazon Unbox some television shows, especially as research for its forum posts. Arrested Development and 30 Rock are pretty fantastic.
If we’re just talking relevant stories, not television, my favorite story about super-powered heroes is Midnight’s Children by Salman Rushdie.
c. As someone who is just getting into the game design industry as a hobby/possible career/possible company to start, I'm curious as to how you got into the industry. What was the first game you worked on?
This is the first real “game industry” game I’ve worked on, though I’ve done a tiny bit of programming for much smaller “games” or game-like software in the research and advertising. Some of that work turned out to be more applicable than other parts. If we’re talking about the first game that I’ve worked on regardless of size or distribution, that would be the town simulator game my brother and I created when I was nine. I did the world design with wooden blocks and action figures, he wrote the simulation part in Advanced Basic. The “city simulation” part was mostly a banking and gambling system for the city’s inhabitants. Typical of all my interactions with my brother, the simulation was written so that all of the city’s money eventually went to him, the banker, leaving my citizens homeless and destitute. Watching the last of my moneyed characters squander his wealth at my brother’s casino was pretty much when I decided I needed to learn to program.
d. What techniques do you use to make meetings shorter?
I try to identify when something is not directly applicable or relevant to the purpose of a meeting or some of its members and request that we continue that part of the discussion outside of the meeting. I’ll keep the rest of my tricks to myself to preserve their abbreviating power.
2. Technical questions
a. What kind of database does CoH use? (aka, relational, custom, open source like postgres etc, object oriented, flat files, some mix?) Is there a dev in charge of the data access layer of the code and if so, who is it? (I am particularly interested because in the early months of CoH, they did several data mining tasks that took ... exceedingly long times to run, and it made me curious to a degree that still has not much abated) When you joined the team and saw how they managed the data, what was your reaction?
b. What programming language is used for character management?
These questions are going to require some technical specificity, so please bear with me. Please also understand that I don’t really know why data mining tasks used to take so long, but the following is better than accurate/true, so I’m going with it.
How we used to do it:
Before what we now know as Mapservers, CoH used a set of machines called Minkowski Cartographs to store data and model characters’ interactions with the world.
What is a Minkowski Cartograph?
The Minkowski Cartographs—or MCs—were built in the early 1970s by a team of Nobel laureates in Mathematics and Cartography. The team’s goal was to build a functional map or “road atlas” of Minkowski Space—a pseudo-Riemannian manifold identified around 1907. Each MC is a room sized device constructed of thousands of independently sliding looms and millions of strings running between them. The strings are made of several tightly braided filaments composed of a patent blend of Polyolefin and Kevlar, inter-loom segments ranging in length anywhere between 10^-32 mm and 1 mm. Approximately half of the strings run between pernambuco-wood looms. The rest are incorporated into a vast conveyor mechanism that drags against the loom strings, causing them to vibrate at specific resonant frequencies, effectively “playing” them like millions of the worlds’ tiniest violins. When played, each string produces a unique four-space wave signature which resonates through its particular loom until it is converted by transducer into an electronic analog signal. Part of this signal is then recorded in a wax disk in much the same way as conventional sound is recorded by the displacement of the spiral groove in a LP record. The other part was filtered and sent through the network for real time exploration of the model by mathematical cartographers. When first created, this was the Network Control Program of the early ARPANET.
Outcome of the MC experimentation of the 1970s:
Though the MCs proved fairly unsuccessful in providing a functioning map of Minkowski space, the MC experiments resulted in two emergent and unpredicted consequences. First, they were very clearly the inspiration for String Theory. Second, as part of their efforts to map Minkowski space through the MCs, scientists began to uncover and chart what appeared to be various sections of a modern city complete with pedestrians and airship implied by the mathematical definition of Minkowski space as portrayed in the MC. Due to the use of hyperbolic quaternions in Minkowski space, physics as modeled by the MCs was significantly more flexible than what we experience.
MC Use by early CoH:
Intending to capitalize on the pre-existing city simulations provided by the MCs, City of Heroes purchased and reused the now renamed “Mapservers” to provide the persistent world of Paragon City. This created a number of problems. First: game engineers and even game administrators on the project required doctorates in math or physics as well as extensive textile industry experience just to maintain the Mapservers, let alone add new features. Second: due to the wear of continuous vibration in four-space, critical strings often broke or became “snagged” resulting in bugs and “Lost Connection to Mapserver” messages that were almost impossible to track down. Third: as you note, data collection was extremely time consuming as the entire mapservers had to be shut down and the wax recording disks carefully removed from each loom on every mapserver.
What happened to the MC devices?
Due to the above and many other problems, the CoH team eventually realized that the Minkowski Cartographs were un-maintainable. Sadly, once dropped by the game, these great loomed-machines were inexplicably destroyed by a group of self-proclaimed neo-luddites. The same group of history-deniers has virtually erased all record of the machines by continuously deleting Wikipedia articles written about them.
What we use now:
Now our mapservers are written in C and use everything from SQL databases to various in-house flat file systems to represent our data. Characters are pretty much created and maintained by SQL queries, but the specifics of the queries are generated by C.
Please let me know if the above raises any more questions. -
Quote:My vid card (happy-very-early-birthday to me!) is a brand new Radeon HD 5670 with 1GB memory. I have dual Dell 1907FP monitors. The computer is a home-built with an Asus (possibly M2N-E?) motherboard with AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4800+ 2.4GHz.
Would you like the output from my City of Heroes Helper, as well?
Thank you very much for your response.
Thanks for the info--I think this is what we needed. It sounds like you're experiencing the same leak as the majority of other players reporting in this post. -
Quote:Also, what video card are you using? I want to make sure we know all the video cards this effects.Another confirmation. I had the same issue, and it was near constant. I could only play for a short while before the dreaded "sound loop/CTD". I went through the forums, read the posts, updated video drivers to the latest, defragged, rebooted, no joy. Disabled monitor two, and now it is stable.
Of course, this rearranges my desktop icons ever time I do that.
EDIT: Update ... I played a little, zoned a couple times, and slowly it eventually started to climb again. I guess it didn't plug it completely but it did really slow it down. -
Quote:It's not unusual for CoH to try to allocate up to about 1.2-1.3 GB of memory when I play for a long time. This happens because of loading up all the textures for the various maps, villain groups, etc., that I see in a single session of game-play. It wouldn't surprise me if you were also getting that. However, if the game is steadily getting bigger and bigger without you doing anything, or going way beyond the 1.2-1.3 GB I'd expect, that's probably a sign of another leak.Thank you, kind sir. Yeah, on mine, it did dramatically slow it, but after an hour or so, and three or four zonings, I was back up to 1.2 million KB in memory, so I think it is only a short-term fix at best.
Can you verify what you're seeing for the second, slower leak? -
Quote:Thanks for checking that out so quickly! Now we have a pretty good idea of how to reproduce/look for the problem and a...slightly more palatable...workaround.Hey Television: Myth confirmed: Disabling the secondary monitor plugs the memory leak.
Do you still notice a small leak, or does it seem like this solved the problem entirely? -
Quote:I've been having a similar issue to Jackrabbit's, and I've managed to pull the info off of CoXHelper. I decided to do two tests, one at the graphics that CoX thinks my computer can handle, and then one at absolute minimum. I have tried a few fixes (like a fresh install of CoX, clearing out my hardrive as I am on a laptop, and running it in safe mode) but none of them have fixed the problem. Typically the crash is accompanied by a massive spike in memory usage, usually around 3,000,000 k that is observed with the Windows Task Manager from a base line of around 1.5k.
Are those drivers the latest for your graphics card? Note that some laptops make it very difficult to install the latest drivers... -
Well, I was--on specific Radeon HD cards--but it sounds like this is happening to you, if a bit more slowly, with only one monitor?
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Quote:We saw a crash in the contact images that was due to old video hardware not drawing the portraits correctly, but we fixed that on Wednesday. That one wasn't associated with a memory leak, though. Are you definitely getting a memory leak with the portraits? If so, that explains why it's still not fixed for you...Has anyone had the virtual memory loss AND the computer freezing when you were simply opening up the Contacts tab to get/turn in missions? It can even happen if I'm logged in with the Contacts tab open and I don't close it quick enough. Additionally, in the rare times I CAN open the Contacts tab with impunity, checking the progress on my Detective/Broker makes the computer freeze. And it never unfreezes.
If that's the case, please post your setup info (like the posters above). If it's not a memory leak, lets create a new thread to track down anyone still experiencing that issue so we can find what video cards/other circumstances are involved. -
Quote:Looks like you've got a different video card than the other guys experiencing the leak, and I only see one monitor in your report. Are you running with one or two?Yes i was watching task manager and it was down to 35 mb free at one point before the freeze.
ran a tf in minimum settings at 800x600 and the game was constantly locking up, 8 man team.
In safe mode today solo it was ok just very ugly
If we can find someone else experiencing your problem, Cyberknight, then we can identify similarities to start testing. -
Quote:We were able to reproduce this! I'm happy we found it because it means we can actually start looking into how to fix it now.This is exactly the same kind of behavior I've seen in the base, but I get it with crafting. I'm already in touch with Arbiter Oates.
Thanks again to everyone who contacted Arbiter Oates with details. This made a big difference.
Edit: This is in reference to the outrageous memory leak when editing a base. We're still investigating the dual monitor memory leak. Sorry if I tricked anyone. =( -
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Is it possible for you to disable 3d rendering on one of your monitors when you have both of them up?
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Quote:So I was just shooting in the dark on that one. Are we actually saying the second monitor is looking like it's causing the problem? That's extremely useful information.UPDATE: I just finished running an hour with no crashing or even hesitation loading while using just a single monitor. Peak Memory usage (via Task Manager)was just above 900MB. Never really came close to 1.7GB+ I had been getting running dual monitor.
I'll keep banging away on it to see if I can reproduce the crash.
Edit: (Thanks for testing so quickly by the way!) -
Quote:It looks like you have both of your soundcards installed at the same time. I haven't experimented with sound cards as much as I should: were you able to just switch between the two sound cards, or does it always use the PCI card if it's plugged in and switch back to the onboard card when the PCI card is removed?This is my normal set up using the ATI HD 4850 to run both Monitors. I've also had the crash with only one monitor connected, and also running off an SB Live! Value PCI card instead of the onboard RealTek chipset. But it happens much more regularly with the configuration I posted.
Also: you said you've crashed with just the one monitor connected and either sound card. Is this the same memory leak, running out of memory crash, or something different. We just recently fixed a really nasty crash while respec'ing for instance. I assume it's the same, just making sure. -
This sounds like it might be a different problem. Have you noticed that you're running out of memory (in task manager) before the sound loop/crash?
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So same sound card, which is interesting. It looks like you're both running with two monitors as well?
Looking for any other similarities that would help us reproduce the problem.
Quote:Monitor's Max Resolution: 1600,1200
Video Device Name: ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series
Manufacturer / Chip: ATI Technologies Inc. / ATI Radeon Graphics Processor (0x9442)
Video Memory: 512.0 MB
Driver Version: 6.14.0010.7070
Driver Date: 4/6/2010 8:45:46 PM
Driver Language: English
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor's Max Resolution: 1600,1200
Video Device Name: ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series
Manufacturer / Chip: ATI Technologies Inc. / ATI Radeon Graphics Processor (0x9442)
Video Memory: 512.0 MB
Driver Version: 6.14.0010.7070
Driver Date: 4/6/2010 8:45:46 PM
Driver Language: EnglishQuote:Monitor: SyncMaster 910N/912N/913N/915N
Monitor's Max Resolution: 1280,1024
Video Device Name: ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series
Manufacturer / Chip: ATI Technologies Inc. / ATI Radeon Graphics Processor (0x68B8)
Video Memory: 1024.0 MB
Driver Version: 6.14.0010.7070
Driver Date: 4/6/2010 8:45:46 PM
Driver Language: English
Monitor: SyncMaster 910N/912N/913N/915N
Monitor's Max Resolution: 1280,1024
Video Device Name: ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series
Manufacturer / Chip: ATI Technologies Inc. / ATI Radeon Graphics Processor (0x68B8)
Video Memory: 1024.0 MB
Driver Version: 6.14.0010.7070
Driver Date: 4/6/2010 8:45:46 PM
Driver Language: English -
We got the hardware, but we're still not able to reproduce this problem with any of the 5000 or 4000 series cards using the 10.4 drivers. However, the problem is extremely pronounced with the 9.8 drivers...but you're not running the old drivers. Any chance you didn't restart? (I know I'm reaching here). Anyone have creative ideas for what's going on?
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Quote:Television: Sorry for the late reply. XP SP3, Radeon 10.3 I BELIEVE but I'll doublecheck when I get home.
Thanks. Please try upgrading to 10.4 when you have time, but I believe we have reports of people who still have the leak with the 32 bit version of the 10.4 drivers as well when running on XP with the 5770. This is still really useful information if you could confirm it's the case for you, though. -
Quote:What operating system are you using? Windows XP SP2 for instance? Windows 7?Try this on for size: I just let the game sit at the login screen for about twenty minutes and it's grown to, as of this post, 945,000KB with a steady process rate hovering around ten percent. At the LOGIN screen. Doing nothing.
Time/size
10:02:50 /962,XXXKB
10:03:15/ 972
10:03:30 /977
10:03:45/ 986
10:04:15/ 992
10:04:45/ 1,003
.....
EDIT THE SECOND:
Now at 1,200,000K as of 10:15:10
Rate of increase appears to be approximately 300K/second.
Edit III:
Game froze exiting a mission @ 10:35:00, mem usage stopped @ 1,691,356K. CPU use flatlined. Note: Mem usage fluctuated during actual play, rate of increase no longer consistent and in some cases went down.
Edit IV: son of Edit: Crash output:
Assertion failed
Program: C:\Program Files\City of Heroes\CityOfHeroes.exe
Time: Wed May 19 10:34:38 PM
Process ID: 896
File: c:\src\utilitieslib\utils\superassert.c
Line: 1857
Expression: 0
Error Message: CRT abort() called
ERROR: swDumpStackToBuffer - timeout (258) waiting for dumpHeap is NOT corrupted
Last windows SYSTEM error: Not enough storage is available to process this command. -
Quote:Radeon 5770 eh? I assume with the 10.4 drivers?Try this on for size: I just let the game sit at the login screen for about twenty minutes and it's grown to, as of this post, 945,000KB with a steady process rate hovering around ten percent. At the LOGIN screen. Doing nothing.
Time/size
10:02:50 /962,XXXKB
10:03:15/ 972
10:03:30 /977
10:03:45/ 986
10:04:15/ 992
10:04:45/ 1,003
.....
EDIT THE SECOND:
Now at 1,200,000K as of 10:15:10
Rate of increase appears to be approximately 300K/second.
Edit III:
Game froze exiting a mission @ 10:35:00, mem usage stopped @ 1,691,356K. CPU use flatlined. Note: Mem usage fluctuated during actual play, rate of increase no longer consistent and in some cases went down.
Edit IV: son of Edit: Crash output:
Assertion failed
Program: C:\Program Files\City of Heroes\CityOfHeroes.exe
Time: Wed May 19 10:34:38 PM
Process ID: 896
File: c:\src\utilitieslib\utils\superassert.c
Line: 1857
Expression: 0
Error Message: CRT abort() called
ERROR: swDumpStackToBuffer - timeout (258) waiting for dumpHeap is NOT corrupted
Last windows SYSTEM error: Not enough storage is available to process this command. -
Quote:Yes, since I17. Saw it in Test too. I also get periodic freeze-crashes without an error window when zoning or exiting missions. Those ones I have to kill the process on. I'll do some testing tonight, what should I look for that screams "Memory leak?" How big is City SUPPOSED to be in Taskmanager?
PC running XP Home
Radeon 5770
AMD Athlon X2
4GB RAM
80GB system HD.
(other?)
I can't tell you how big it could possibly get without a leak--if you're standing around with 50 of your friends we're going to load a ton of textures, etc, for them. Especially if it's actually 1000 of your closest friends who each have totally unique costumes and run by you in sequence. However, I wouldn't expect to see it go above 1.3 GB under most normal conditions. Other people on the forums can tell you if they consistently see above that.
What you're looking for with the leak is the game using up consistently more memory all the time. I often see little changes when I move my head around or someone runs by, but if you're just sitting there with memory use climbing...that's a bad sign.
I'd check memory use by CoH by looking in task manager. If you're on Windows that is. If you're using Linux, you're probably cool enough to to know how to do this better than I could tell you. -
Yeah, Arbiter Kim did a really good job of digging into this problem last time, but it looks like we didn't end up catching it. This time we're looking at getting a different kind of information and maybe some different tactics for reproducing it (we may need to see your specific bases for example). Even if you talked to Arbiter Kim before, we'd appreciate you contacting Arbiter Oates for this second wave of investigation.
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Quote:If you are experiencing this particular leak, please contact Arbiter Oates (via PM). Our team hasn't been able to reproduce this yet and Arbiter Oates is collecting more details.Simply open up the base editor in a medium or larger base and stay zoomed out and go afk. Or just let it sit there for awhile exit the editor and go about playing like you normally would and sooner or later you will crash or freeze. The game keeps using more and more memory and never releases it after using the base editor. I've seen cityofheroes.exe get to 1.7 gb in the task manager before. Usually crashes at 1.4 - 1.5 though.
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Quote:Are you saying the crash looks like a result of a memory leak, especially during a map move, or due to something else? I have not personally seen crash reports that would indicate a memory leak in these conditions, or experienced it myself, but we have seen some as-of-yet unexplained crash reports during map move. If this is what's going on, that is EXTREMELY useful information and there are a few of us who will get a better night's sleep once we know.I have a rig which uses both nVidia and ATI PCI-E cards. I have the same silly habit of watching my RAM usage. (Probably because of my job I guess) and have seen the exact same situation appearing after i17 was released. It doesn't matter which Video card (nVidia 9800 or ATI 4850) is being used for the game even when the unused card's drivers are completely unloaded. After 'X' interval, especially when I'm exiting missions, calling up the Costume panel, or entering the Auction panel. I found the programhas either crashed to crash reporter or hard locked.
Athlon X64 5000+ (2.6Ghz) 3GB RAM
ASUS (nVidia 420 series) Mobo
XP Pro SP3
All drivers up to date.
ATI HD 4850 512MB
or
nVidia 9800 512MB
Would you please put your contact information (the best way for me to get in touch with you) in the crash report and mention "Television"? Then PM me. Once you do, we'll find your crash report and get the context we're missing. The more info we have, the easier it is to track these kind of issues down.