Tenryuu

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If you are waiting, inactive, for the 10 seconds it takes to rehide, then you are flatly wasting incredible damage potential. I mean, the example we're looking at here is the one of facing melee foes, so it's not as if they're Blasters off pelting you while you try to rehide (which is a tough problem). It makes no sense to me to stand around and wait for a natural re-hide to achieve double damage on an attack. For an AS I could see it, because at an equivalent BI of 19.4 you might not be able to deliver equivalent damage in 10 seconds. But for a standard crit?

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Some people fall for it, some don't. Most people I've run into, when they see their health at half and know I've already used my Placate and follow-up... they don't heal. I don't know why, but I guess they feel confident that I can't scrap them down fast enough. So, they don't hit that heal, just yet. That's why I wait for that crit. Even if it's a normal one. By the time they realize that I've just vanished, I'm already firing off the finishing blow faster than they can manage that heal.

When you play the helpless, incompetent Stalker, people get confident. It's a nice edge. While I may not be incompetent, I'll certainly not be able to use the deceptive cover much longer.

By the way... the times the Dull Pain bug helped the most were against Blasters, Spines Scrappers, Tankers (due to needing to conserve endurance), and Dwarf-form Kheldians (for the same reason as Tankers).

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If anything the change in combat style this requires is going to increase your DPS. That is unless I completely don't understand something you're doing. Because I can't fathom why you want to rehide in this way if you can't use it to AS.

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You CAN use the chance to AS... but you have to NOT be hit while doing so, just as if you were doing it normally. It's not like Placate where they can't attack you. They still can, but it's an extra opportunity, regardless.

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DP turns a stalker into a scrapper with placate, hide and AS. And that is a nasty scrapper.

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Until you notice that we have to sacrifice some attacks to fire off that crit, unlike a Scrapper. We also don't get the nice damage (well... maybe EM does) as regularly.

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It sounds to me like the difference here is that you didn't need to use any tactics at all about how you fired your placate.

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It's not timing Placate that's a problem... Placate DOES NOT count as re-Hiding during combat. SR re-Hides during combat. Ninjitsu re-Hides during combat. Energy Aura re-Hides during combat. With the Dull Pain bug, you can sit around, taking the hits and re-Hide as long as you don't attack. It has NOTHING to do with Placate.

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I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where you have the liberty of firing an AS on a foe (which DP did nothing to make easier) but they could break your hide.

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Imagine what a Super Reflexer could do. Not attack for 7-8 seconds and, as long as they weren't hit, re-Hide on the spot. NO PLACATE INVOLVED. That is what I'm talking about with Dull Pain. Instead of Scrapping away at their resistances and heals, I could re-Hide by taking their hits, (in some cases) hoping they don't kill me, and not attacking. In which, I could then AS (if they didn't fire off an AoE or hit me with something else). The Dull Pain bug was a knockoff of being able to dodge attacks to re-Hide WITHOUT Placate.

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My recommendation, especially since you've got a whole stable of Stalkers: wait and see. Maybe you really won't like it. I'm willing to be you will find a way to adapt.

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If I really don't like it, I'll be doing the same thing other people have done when they found they couldn't play to their style. Delete the character and make one that DOES fit the playstyle. This isn't like my Regen Scrapper where all the Regen changes and adjustments rolled off my back like water. Those were nothing to complain about, in my opinion. This change directly affects my "I don't care if I'm seen. Hidden status is merely for criticals." playstyle.

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You will be giving up your single most effective power, in the sense of the power that provides you the most benefit the highest percentage of the time. Only Integration's mez resistance has a bigger effect on your playability as a Regen Stalker.

3-slotted for heals, you can look at Dull Pain as the approximate equivalent of 37% damage resistance that can't be bypassed by anyone or anything. At the same time, it boosts your regen rate by 59%. Dull Pain plus Instant Healing, while not a combo you can have running all the time by any means, make a Regen Stalker, even with those Defender base HP, incredibly hard for almost any character to kill without a team. And they can't be detoggled.

If your goal is just to be a Stalker torpedo who goes in for the kamikaze kill, go nuts. I think you'll be hating life in PvE.

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The reason I'd be dropping Fast Healing and Dull Pain is because DP is going to become virtually useless to me and I need two power selections, if I'm going to pick up two other powers.

I killed Regen Scrappers, Invuln Tankers, and Dwarf form Kheldians for the sole fact that I could re-Hide while they were hitting me, to get that extra burst damage (and chance to AS, if they couldn't interrupt it) before I ran out of Endurance. Without that extra damage, I'm just whittling away at an armored vehicle with a toothpick (as I'm not Energy Melee). I guess this is just the game's way of telling me that I'm meant to scavenge for squishies like the rest of the Stalker population.

To me, just because something gives you bounty and reputation doesn't mean it's worth the effort. Heck... do you think I'd only have 200 rep, if I were picking off Blasters, Defenders, and Controllers like the rest?

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And that's why it's no surprise to me that it gets the harder time with rehiding.

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Even WITH Dull Pain's bug, it's not as easy re-Hiding, simply because Dull Pain can't be up all the time. Now, it's like "Yay. I can delay the inevitable, but not actually kill anything worth killing!"

Yes, I'm a bit crazed and semi-irrational, here. I'm losing my playstyle and pride (as a hunter) with this change. Why would I react in any other manner?

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In PvP I've dueled Nin stalkers and beat them. I have taken on things that they can't because they can't stay in the fight long enough if their lvl 38 power hasn't recharged yet. Do I use the DP bug? No. I don’t' need to.

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Well, yeah. I don't suspect that a Stalker would live too long after being ASed... I'm talking about the targets worth killing. The big guys.

I think this is pretty much what I'm going to have to resort to, now... Urgh. This isn't just a hit to my character. >/ It's a hit to my pride.

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[I actually don't have DP on this char. I've meaning to respec into it, but I have not used the respec yet (I'm waiting abit to find out how Arbiter leary actually works).

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Hrn. What are your methods of attack? Hit'n'Run/Open With AS or Scrap/Finish With AS?

With the change coming, I'll have to change my build to pick up Stealth, now, so I can be a typical Stalker and not run into problems.

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When I'm on my stalker I don't seem to mind getting killed as much as I do on my tank. I'm usually willing to give a get to get a kill, but I still do my best to run like hell when I have too.

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On my Stalker, it's no big deal to die. I like being rather gutsy. It causes quite a bit of chaos, when people don't expect me to stupidly pop into a group of heroes... and yet I do.

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The best counter to a TP'ing /dev blaster is to start stlaking them, which is easier with claws and focus.

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I'll probably be dropping Fast Healing and Dull Pain, now, to pick up Assault and Tactics. =/ Then I can do just that.

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Regen gets something: it gets to be regen. It will be easier to knock out of hide when this gets eventually fixed, but it has superior damage mitigation on average.

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With our below average HP, it gives as much mitigation as the +Def sets against enemies with high Acc.

Nope. It just takes about 3-4 simultaneous (or rapid) hits to knock you out of Hide with Dull Pain running.

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So what your telling me that if you went into auto-hide the exact same time that Dull Pain went off, you would never lose HIDE effect?

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That's not what's being said at all. Currently, while Dull Pain is active, you cannot be easily knocked out of Hidden status, unless you attack. Multiple attacks from enemies can override this and reset Hide's suppression. It works just like Mez Protection. When Dull Pain wears off, Hide works normally and you lose Hidden status as soon as you get hit.

Dull Pain doesn't affect Assassin's Strike, whatsoever. So, the only thing you can manage is criticals while under fire, like the +Def sets.

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And on the same note, if you were held or terroized the exact moment that Dull Pain went off you would be "forever" held or terroized?

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No. While Dull Pain is active, people can get a few more hits in before Terrorize wears off. It doesn't affect Holds or any other mez.

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Feel free to think that way man. If you mean PvP then fine, but the idea that it's gimp in PvE is just laughable. I know what I've done with mine, and I mean it when I say the idea of someone calling it gimp makes me laugh.

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PVE is rather managable, yes. The OP was talking about PVP, though.

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I do pretty good in pvp.

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Just a question. Is that with or without the assistance of Dull Pain's bug? I know for a fact that I'm now easy bait for */Dev Blasters TPing me into Mines. With the bug, I could be TPed onto the caltrops and walk off without a scratch due to Hide sticking.

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I really enjoy playing this char. I have no idea why everyone thinks regen is gimp.

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Our ability to take a hit is the equivalent of the others being able to avoid damage. Our ability to re-hide with Dull Pain was the equivalent of the other sets being about to avoid the damage, period. Now that one is being taken away, we have a slight disadvantage. In so, our damage output has also taken a small hit.

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I too have a claws/regen stalker, but I can tell you as far as pvp goes, /regen isn't the best. Not bad, but not the best.

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It's equal, currently, but it seems that'll change.

Well, all I can say now is that I'm reconsidering my main, for the fourth time. =P That bug was the only thing that made */Regen viable for Stalker combat. While I can still function in PVE without that, it certainly kills my DPS in PVP.

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I was that someone that sent the PM to Statesman. If I still had his reply, I'd post it here. He said it wasn't a bug, but a "feature." Either way. For those who don't know, Dull Pain prevents you from being knocked out of hide easily, during its time of activation. So, it's like click mez protection, but instead, knock-out-of-hide protection.

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Actually, Tenryuu, it was me you asked, and I apparently answered too quickly without actually understanding what you were asking.

I am sorry to say that my response was incorrect. This 'feature' as much as I personally like it, is really a fairly nasty systemic bug that we are fixing. Again, I'm sorry for giving you incorrect information. By the way, this bug can cause issues with Badges failing to be granted.

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Really? Weird. Cause it was Statesman's name on the reply I DID get. The question I had sent to you, I got a read receipt for, but no reply... so I asked Statesman and that's when I got my reply.

I have to say, then, that there's a bug with the forum PMs. =P

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In another thread, someone reported that they asked he devs about the dull pain behavior and they reported that it was working like intended.

That is, with dull pain up I can stand around getting wailed on, and still slip back into hide.

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Could you point me to that thread in here or by PM? If that's intended, then it's quite a feature for us regenners.

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I was that someone that sent the PM to Statesman. If I still had his reply, I'd post it here. He said it wasn't a bug, but a "feature." Either way. For those who don't know, Dull Pain prevents you from being knocked out of hide easily, during its time of activation. So, it's like click mez protection, but instead, knock-out-of-hide protection.

Note: You CANNOT use Assassin's Strike, however, if you're getting hit. It still gets interrupted. So, it's only use is landing that critical or not having your Placate screwed up.

Ah. Sorry. Should've quoted you, instead. Would've saved me a little time. =P

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People who PVP a lot and design their characters to excel in PVP generally make room for stuff like tactics or whatever, simply because it does give them an advantage. I know a duo who stimmed each other in the arena and were constantly accused of hax. Wacky.

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I'm made for PVP... just not built like the other one-shot wonders. I'm not Energy Melee, so I can't just go around with 4 powers from my Primary. =P

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Well, assuming that Touch of Fear is in the stalker version of DA when issue 7 gets to the test server, might it not be good to see how it works before predicting doom?

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One didn't have to wait to realize that Instant Healing, as a toggle, on a Regen Stalker would be overpowered, ya know. Same goes for Quick Recovery, really.

And just so you know... I'm not predicting "doom/DOOOOM!!!11/whatever" on anything. I never cried that it'd be gamebreaking. I never said "omg it gunna ruin all of pvp!!11" or anything of the sort. I also never theorized that my PVE game would be screwed due to any PVP changes that may come about. I just noted that it was far less resisted, because you asked and I properly quote:

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If it's uberer than stun, how is that possible?

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So, I gave a reason. Beyond my reply, this whole thing shouldn't have existed.

I should've given an existing example, as well, since you seem to think I'm only crying doom (when really, as I stated before, I was just answering your question and [later] replying to your sarcastic remark). So, example:

Example of how it works:
Build Up > AS > Placate > Next Strongest Attack > Fear > [wait a few for Hidden to pop back up] > Finish (most likely with AS, since it'd be recharged by then and the enemy can't move away, unlike with Placate)

Yes, it's a valid chain, but... you can't possibly see how this would become annoying to another person? Ah well. Shame on me for continuing this, to begin with.

Ninelives:
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this arguement sounds alot like the spec terror arguement when the arena first came on.

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Except that those with Spectral Terrors are too non-threatening, on their own, for that to even become a real problem.

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Uh huh. Exaggerate much? I have been subjected to ToF in PVP and it was strangely not all that hard to deal with.

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I guess I just suck, then. *thumbs up*

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One power available to anyone who wants to take it. I know of a few people who have deliberately taken it for PVP.

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Yay for those who have room to do so.

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Or you could pack your own break frees. Packing break frees is not something that would suddenly be required by the existence of fear-wielding stalkers, after all.

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1. It's not Stalkers I'm worried about, as I am one (and I've only one reason to hit up Warburg... which won't take long). It's the Scrappers that are a pain. However, I did note, as a Stalker, that it'd be a bit overbearing as a power used by a Stalker that didn't require one other to obtain. The only reason I even care is that it could eventually affect me, as all Stalkers share key powers that people seem to constantly complain about. The arguments could only be furthered if one were to make it easier to pull off the powers in question.

2. As a Stalker, I don't really have room to pick up a fear resistance power, unless I cut out a few of the powers that make me a non-Hit'n'Run Stalker. My fault, I know.

3. Seeing as I can't afford to slot-out with SOs with Infamy alone, I can't just run from the zone every time I run out of Break Frees.

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And we naturally don't want stalkers to finish anyone off easily. Or for some builds to have an advantage in some situations over almost all builds.

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Corrected.

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Just for the record, Stimulant provides fear protection. So do break frees.

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One power sure does make up for the many that resist Disorient/Stun. I guess I could always try teaming up with someone who just might carry a buttload of Break Frees for me or, by chance, someone who has Stimulant.

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But for some insane reason, when I hit a boss, he hits back. If it's uberer than stun, how is that possible?

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Fear isn't as resisted as Stun, as far as I know... so, while it may not be "uber" in PVE, it's definitely quite the pain in PVP and could give a Stalker the recharge time that they need to easily finish someone off.

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Though I do agree with double daggers...why not something better? Maybe dual kunai (a dagger ninjas use, is able to be thrown and used in close combat) that seems much cooler.

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Probably because Kunai are virtually useless outside of anime. They're daggers, but also not. They weren't originally weapons and were only used as such by people who couldn't afford them. They were blunt, unless sharpened for the purpose of using it as a cheap weapon.

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Please can we make all PvP zones Hero vs. Villian? What is the point of having heroes trashing one another in PvP zones?

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Only one is Free-for-All and there's a reason for it and it goes along the same lines as Items of Power. Would you rather trust someone else with something so powerful or yourself? ((If anyone says "someone else" I'll just have to accept that there are people I can easily plot against =P ))

While I would like to make a Cleric John Preston character, myself, I think it's far more reasonable to ask for a Stalker melee set than a Stalker ranged set. =P

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_Castle_, weren't you the one to ask for "new" Stalker sets? (i.e. the psychic-dagger set)

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The most popular requests seemed to be:
- Dual Daggers
- Psychic Melee
- Bo/Staffs
- Sais

Even though those last two are horrendously NOT Stalker-like.

It makes me giggle so. *eyes twinkle*

Don't you just love the idea of the environment changing as you're having an epic battle in the midst of it all?

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The problem is that I think side-changing will be abusable and seriously break things....

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in what way? I have a hard time thinking up ways to break the game this way....

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I like the idea of Stalkers being able to AS and then retreat to the safety of Hurricane.

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Question:

Would AT titles change?


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No. It's been answered before. No.

The suggestion, however, is a little neat. Though, I'd still prefer to be a Stalker, even on the hero side.