Tannim222

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  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post

    They get a TON of mitigation from their attacks. Namely, killing things before they can hurt you and various secondary effects on the attacks. For example, a Brute Foot Stomp mitigates damage BETTER than a Tanker Foot Stomp. They both knock the enemies on their butts just as good as the other, but the Brute inflicts more damage and has a greater chance of killing them. Usually, Tankers don't have the edge here because the numbers are the same, or they favor the Brute because the Brute is outputting more of the ultimate form of mitigation; dead enemies can't hurt you.

    The truth is, this pushes the actual survivability of Brutes closer to Tankers than looking at their defense, HP and resistance numbers would suggest.


    .
    First comparing one attack to another even if ATs share that attack isn't cause for a balance issue when the powers numbers aren't out of whack and only work based on the stats of the AT.

    Second, Brutes who are less survivable than Tanks, get to survive well because they can defeat things faster. EXACTLY!

    Tanks survive longer because they're TOUGHER.

    Yet things aren't so cut and dry. There are situations that are capable in the SO part of the game, all the way through IO / Incarnate possibilites that allow certain Tanker combos to out dps certain Brutes and certain Scrapper combos.

    Even so, as its been asked of you, if as you state, Tanker mitigation is superfluous - which the same as saying unnecessary for 95% of the content, and damage is more necessary, how much mitigation should Tankers lose in order to have more damage?

    Oh wait, you don't want them to lose any mitigation and you want only their damage cap raised yes? When raising that cap will not benefit most Tanker secondaries. You said that 95% of the game is 0/+1 so even with a kin buffer, you aren't going to always have every secondary at cap unless the Tanker is constantly herding up those sparsed out spawns and that's if they're close enough to not get called back to their anchor point.

    You can't have it both ways.

    Scrappers and Brutes do more damage in order to survive what they can because they aren't as tough as Tankers. Tankers do less damage, but can survive longer. I know you hate that idea as a balance metric, and would prefer something that can be the toughest and dish out high damage constantly, but this isn't, and won't ever be the case for this game.

    In fact, I'd wager than any MMO that does something like this would only have but 1 melee AT in their game as a result because anything else would be unnecessary.
  2. Quote:
    IOs and the Incarnate system "don't count" when it comes to AT issues.
    That's the excuse Brute boosters have been regurgitating for years.
    It's bogus shield they hide behind so they can keep being utterly broken.
    *snip*
    Quote:
    But being tough enough to handle like, 95% of the game's content, and see no drawback from not being as tough as a Tanker
    Except for the fact that Scrappers and Brutes are never tough as a Tanker. They do not have the same base values. Scrappers and Brutes don't have the same HP cap or same base HP values. Nor do Scrappers have the same resist caps. Even if Brutes have the same resist cap, they can't acheive that with the ease that Tankers can, and not as many values that Tankers can. Even with the same defense soft cap that people build for, Tankers can get their more easily than either of those ATs and can therefore built for other areas more than they can as well.

    With regards to damage, what about those certain Tanker secondaries that can match or even surpass certain Scrapper and Brute dps attack chains? Now you have a situation where there's a Tanker thats tougher than either Brute or Scrapper, and within the same amount of time, is pulling ahead damage wise.

    Everything isn't so black and white as your blanket statements make them out to be.

    Regarding Incarnate abilities: Every AT in the game is able to make huge strides with them. There are quite a few controller builds than can put any melee AT to shame when it comes to damage, and still have safety via control. Should that be changed so that Dominators can pull ahead of those few sets that do always? No, because its the intent that Incarnate abilities allow people to do things with their builds that their character couldn't before, or do it with more efficiency.

    Tankers can increase their damage potential in quite a few ways, they could increase their regeneration and healing which would always trump that of a Scrapper or Tankers values. And in those instances where a good IO build doesn't necessarily require additional defense, a Tanker can still become work towards adding resistance or recharge, etc...
  3. I love the original film, but have yet to see the new version. Though my guess is that it will pale in comparison, just from what I've seen in trailers and whatnot and what I've read.

    However, I'd still love to see the true origin of Conan brought to life. His village raided, a young teen-aged Conan finds the fort of the attackers, and manages to do what no one else had done prior; to break into the fort and slaughter all those within.

    From then on, Conan only sought adventure, to gain by his hand those things in life that were pleasurable; food and drink for his belly, women, and treasure. Whether it was as a lowly pikeman in a mercenary troop, the captain of a corsair ship raiding the coasts, a theif, or military commander, there was only treasure to gain, or revenge if somone crossed his simple babarian notion of honor.
  4. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Obscure Blade View Post
    How? If you cast it after using WH, they are already knocked back; and if you cast it before using WH you'll eat the entire alpha and probably some successor attacks before you can use WH if that doesn't kill you.
    I'd sometimes do just that and risk the first volley of fire just so I could make sure the mobs weren't wandering off. It was a pain in the late game for certain.

    Crushing Field needing to prevent kb really isn't all about synergy with WH, but with other sets as well.

    In the end its not the major thing that needs to be addressed with Gravity.
  5. Crushing Field should prevent knock back. That'd solve the wormhole problem. Another way is to make wormhole knock down w/ out a knock back enhancer placed in and knockback if an enhancement is used.

    To avoid the initial aggro, it might work to have the power stun first. Unless that causes an issue with stunned mobs not getting caught in the aoe. The aoe could be increased a bit as well.

    One thing to know though, is that with range added into WH, you can often times pull mobs from a good distance away, and even target them from around corners or places of cover. Negating the risk of a first volley.

    The only issue I had was bosses not getting pulled with it. I didn't mind that they were stunned, or knocked about, but that they would show up as the Tank or other team mates were working on the pulled mob and the boss would begin to work me over.

    If I was lucky, I'd keep near singy, and we'd work in tandem to get the boss held. But for those levels in between, it wasn't so nice.

    Grav may not have early aoe control, which is nice. But Lift being able to knock up can act much like a short term hold, while grav distorting another mob is great for single target control. It's nice for early level play that doesn't focus so much on large groups of mobs. But that's not common when people start adding aoe teams early on.
  6. Bubba, I'd say that if its your intent to review superhero comic book movies, you make a priority list.

    Start off with something like this:

    Tier 1: Live-Action Films made after the comic (North Western American)
    This would remove such films as Indiana Jones.
    Zorro was first novelized. It had film, and a comic that was around the same time if I'm not too mistaken. So, if you want, you may have to decide if strict adherance to the historical timeline is necessary. For example, Zorro films prior to the comic aren't reviewed, while those after are. Then again, it may be even more necessary to research the comics and films to see if any films made after the publication of a comic used a story based on that comic, which does meet the criteria.

    Tier 2: Live-Action Films of superhero theme not based on a previously published comic.

    Tier 3: Animated Films based on a comic.

    Tier 3: Animated Films not based on a previously published comic.

    Tier 4: Live action films based on a Manga.

    Tier 5: Animated Films based on a Manga.

    Tier 6: Films that spawned the creation of a comic.
    This would end up including such things as Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Serenity (Firefly), etc...

    This would end up encompassing everything that spans films and comic cross overs, giving them a priority. This way, say you've completed Tier 1 and have moved onto Tier 2, but another film that belongs in Teir 1 comes out. You can then review it and go back to Teir 2.
  7. I've thought about doing something similar to this. But with the strict adherence to movies that were based on actual comic books. I might expand to manga, but I thought that might get too unwieldly especially when dealing with animated features.

    But I wanted to take it a step further, and make video reviews critiquing the films, via persona called the Masked Movie Man. Considering that I don't have any background in actual film so as to have some education into what went into the production of the films, really I'd only be reviewing them as a regular movie watcher so while my tastes for whats in a film might still be the same, I'd be able to mention some of the behind the seens stuff that was done either wrong or right as well.

    Also, to consider adding to your list:

    The Crow (1994)
    The Crow City of Angels (1996)

    There are other Crow films but they were direct to dvd release.
  8. Quote:
    Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly View Post
    I like the idea but not the direct implementation of them casting buffs. It'd be nice if they had an aura that either redirected damage to themselves (perhaps not doable) or gave those close-by additional resistance (definitely doable). Then when you are close to the Tank, you are safe
    Funny enough, Body Guard, where Tankers would absorb some of the damage directed toward nearby team mates was brought up my players here in the Tanker forums. It was later given to MMs.

    Damage reflection has been brought up multiple times. We were first told it wasn't possible. Then we were told that it was possible but caused problems. I can't quite recall what exactly, but something about server side calulations, latency, etc...where it was too much to track what damage came from where, how much would be reflected, where that reflection went, how much was taken by the recipient. But I may be wrong on that.

    If you notice, tanker APPs offer either hard control, soft control, ranged damage, or debuffs (well some self buffs to with one set).

    I still content that Tankers or more akin to melee-trollers. It'd be interesting to see what they'd feel like to play if Gauntlet carried over the Tanker secondary effects from their attacks.
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    You're trying to ad hominem and deflect with semantics. Nice try but not nice enough. My point stands. There are 'Trinity ATs' in the game. Tankers Blasters and Defenders are those exemplified.
    I don't think anything else I could say would change your mind on the matter, but I disagree completely that Defenders are the typical healor class of other mmos or even table top rpgs that led to the tactic of the holy trinity.

    Tankers by far tend to be way better than other classes of that type I've played in other games as well. But that may just be my experience.



    Quote:
    Again, you're wrong. They were intended to hide and backstab.
    Assassin's strike may kind of work like a "backstab" but it was intended to give Stalkers that first high burst of single target damage upon which they could placate and potentially deliver another high damage attack, then follow up with the remaining attacks to fill out their attack chain. Most of those attacks for most sets end up being single target in nature.

    Stalkers were meant to deliver high amounts if single target damage. Works great solo, not so much on teams. When such things as this were brought up with Castle in the past, he stated that there wasn't much else he could do for Stalkers at the time, that the problem wasn't necessarity the AT but within the game itself. Now there's that there's new tech, some of those game issues can be resolved, hopefully delivering the experience Stalkers were intended to deliver.

    Quote:
    Some Stalkers sets/combos run into that problem, but not all of them, fair to say?

    Well in that case the same can be said about Tankers' damage caps.
    They don't get maximum use from Rage, Against All Odds, Kinetics, Leadership and others in a buff rich environment. But, you won't be conceding that point, will you?
    In a buff rich environment, practically no sets self buffs are of benefit. Those same powers do about as much for Scrappers or Brutes in those situations. Build-up, soul drain, and other such powers aren't necessary if you're on a League being surrounded by multiple buffers laying it all on the melees.


    [/quote]You said, and I quote:

    "Tankers were never, once designed with the intent of being heavy hitters in this game."

    The old quote you refer to proves your assertion wrong. No matter if it's no longer applicable to the present design or if it didn't get past the design phase; it was the intent of the lead developer at that point in time and it was designed. And you said 'never'. You're wrong.[/quote]

    If the quote you choose to cling to so much was never realized was it? Nope.

    Which means that when Tankers were designed, they weren't made to be the heavy hitters you expect them to be.

    When people later brought up requests for more damage, even if it came at the cost of longer recharge of attacks, Gecko, the powers dev at the time, shot it down. The only change that occured was a modest boost to Tankers' base melee damage mod.



    [quote]Screwing someone over doesn't have to be about malicious intent. The weather can screw over your picnic plans, and there's no true anthropomorphization of the clouds and wind behind the meaning of the phrase.[/qupte]

    No, I'd say bad weather ruined my pic nic. The weather didn't scew me. My date's jealous ex that slashed my tires so we couldn't get to the pic nic, he screwed me. Now my pic nic date is shot and I need to buy new tires. Man that guy is good at that

    Either way, JB, I really do admire your tenacity. While its great to banter with you, I feel that we're starting to argue in semantics which is only serving to derail the thread.

    I think its safe to say that we both believe that Tankers are in need of change. We may disagree on what those changes are, which is fine, but I think we can be confortable in the fact that the devs are at least willing to look into it. If you want to continue our discussion about these other topics, please feel free to carry it on via PMs.
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    As is theirs.



    As opposed to ATs that are more hybrid and can better serve in multiple roles? Like heck there are. Tankers, Blaster and Defenders. There's your tank, glass cannon DPS and 'healer' there. They have their jobs and are generally very poor at doing anything else.
    Oh wow, did you just bring up the dreaded Defender = Healer argument as a point to prove your stance? Really? Yes, there are defender sets with heals in them, but not all, and even those that have them aren't reliant on them as their primary focus. There's one that may be called a "healing set" and it actually provides more regeneration that healing.

    In fact, I tend to think that Defenders are one of the more versatile ATs in the game. They're not HealorZ they're threat multiplyers. And yes, they do their "job" quite well.

    Yes, Blasters do suffer for their intended design. I'd tend to think that stems from lack of focus on designing their secondary which are all over the map when it comes to mechanics.

    Quote:
    Sorry, you're wrong. There's nothing 'Stalkery' about more max HP. And Stalkers never got Criticals before i12. That's making them more 'Scrappery'. And and the building/falling of the new stacks is actually very 'Brutey' when you think about it

    So yes, they are strengthening them towards the middle, allowing them to do more when not in Hidden (like the other melee ATs), more non-front loaded damage and to survive better. In short, to better 'scrap it up'. If they were making them more "niche-y" as you say, they wouldn't be touching their HP but would instead be buffing Assassin Strike to do more damage the longer the were Hidden or something like that.
    The entire point behind giving stalkers crits outside of hide was because they couldn't provide on a team what they were designed for, which was their stdps. Teams weren't willing to slow down and allow them to rehide, or placate certain targets, or even let them choose their target on the outside.

    Now that there's some new tech availabe, they're able to go back and revisit Stalkers and are trying to bring them back to their intended design.

    The HP being raise, while their base is staying the same is because Stalkers don't maximum use from +hp powers, they hit their cap and basically, portions of those powers become essentially useless. Then there's the issues for people who want to get accolades, or use +hp bonuses. It's a long standing issue for Stalkers that's finally being addressed.

    Quote:
    I have a quote from the lead dev at the time that says otherwise.
    This again? Touting this old quote from a dev no longer on the team, whose statement was never realized to the extend that anything about it was implemented in game has already been shot down. Face it, Tankers weren't designed that way, from the first Closed Beta until now.



    Quote:
    I happen to think their situations have a lot in common. They both suffer from over specialization and they both get screwed over by their more popular, more flexible counterparts.
    Scrappers and Brutes do not screw over anyone. To screw someone over implies personal, malicious intent to harm in some way, most typically in a material manner. Which seems to me that you've personalized this issue far beyond discussing game design and balance.

    Quote:
    A proper CoH2 is probably not going to happen at this point. Positron gave the not-so-subtle hint that '(CoH) Freedom is the future'. I believe you should take that literally.
    CoH is probably past the point where investing in a (good) sequel would be profitable. The "CCG Grab Bags" they announced at the Pummit do not bode well to me as an indicator of how much actual revenue the Market is bringing in for them. Also the Doom numbers were way down, at a second all time low IIRC, as of the last quarter(?). Is CoH going away anytime too soon? Likely not. But it's still not hot enough for the men in suits to throw money at a sequel.
    I only mentioned it in a rather toungue in cheek manner. Though its still true that NCSoft did grab the domain name. It doesn't mean its in the works. They could have just been protecting themselves in case they decided to go that route and didn't want to deal with someone nabbing it before them.



    Quote:
    Here's another way to look at it: The fewer melee ATs (or by extension the fewer ATs period) the fewer designed in weaknesses they have to have. In other words, both of those theoretical ATs can be better and more rounded because they don't have to worry as much about crowding anyone in between.
    I agree, tightly focues classes make it easy to balance a game. But make it harder to introduce additonal play styles that may appeal to more people. I think it's perfectly viable to have multiple classes, and still balance the system. It takes time, as more classes are introduced, it can warp the curve so to speak, which is why good MMOs are constantly addressing those issues.
  11. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    I know it could. And has been. I'm purposefully throwing the same argument back in the face of the people who use it against me (though DrGemini isn't necessarily who that's directed at) so they can choke on it.
    No, what you're doing isn't throwing the same agrument back. You're argument is virtually baseless, at least in the way you want things changed. Particularly by trying to use either real word examples (military equipment like tanks) or comic book examples - to which don't apply to a video game.

    The other argument provides plenty of actual in game evidence to support it.


    Quote:
    Good question. Here's another: Hybrid ATs already exist in the game and are very popular, arguably more so than their older, less flexible cousins. Do we really still need to keep the Trinity ATs as overspecialized as they are?

    My answer to that is, look what they're doing for Stalkers; rounding them out insead of pushing them further to the fringe. That's the right approach.
    Um...firstly there are not "trinity ATs" as this game has been designed. Tankers and perhaps defenders are the closest to that, but they don't play out the way the typical classes work in other MMOs. The entire point is that you needed the three main classes in order to succeeed against most paricular encounters. Here, you could end up on a team with none of or all of just those ATs and still succeed.

    Secondly, Stalkers aren't being rounded out so much as they're actually being given more of a niche - the exact oppossite of what you think is happening. The intent on the Stalker changes is to make them "the" single target dps AT.

    Here's the thing, i put "the" in quotes. That's because with certain builds, Scrappers will have powerset combos that will out stdps Stalkers, Brutes will too. Heck, right now there are certain Tanker stdps chains that beat out certain Scrapper stdps chains. And those aren't necessarily the high end builds either.


    Quote:
    You have no more justification to say that than I have to say that Tankers were designed to be heavy hitters. You may want them to the best at aggro, but they're apparently not currently and there's nothing that says they have to be better at it than Brutes any more than there is that says Tankers are supposed to be "extremely powerful" heavy hitters.

    It's just your desires versus my desires. And guess what, no matter how many people feel either way, this is not a democracy. So I feel my reasons are just as valid to take my chances with, developer bias aside.
    Here's the problem, Tankers were never, once designed with the intent of being heavy hitters in this game. They were always behind scrappers when it came to damage. You're desire has everything to do with what you want changed to have an AT work the way you've always desired it to work, but its never been intended for to fulfill that desire.

    My desire is only that Tankers are provided with some disctinction in their gameplay mechanics that will further set them apart from the other Melee ATs so that they provide a unique experience while playing them. Those ATs in particular are Brutes and Scrappers because Stalkers and Tankers are worlds apart.

    My desire isn't purely based on what I think should work or not work for the AT by using ideas extrapolated from things outside of this game. Its based on what already exists within the game itself. For all I know the devs may come in and say they see one more problems with Tankers, outline what they are, and conclude the most feasable way to resolve it is by increases the raw damage output of Tankers. I doubt it, but they might. If that were the case, it would probably provide evidence that no one else has thought to look at over the 7 years of this AT being played.

    Barring that, I'd bet that we'd see some tweaks or changes to some of the under the hood mechanics to how Tankers operate. If they were to take another step beyond that, they may decide to work with how Bruising works, and expand on their initial take on it.

    Or they might go in a completely new direction by adding other features to the AT that won't change its design intent, but define it by allowing the AT to operate with another tool in its set.

    Quote:
    There's a good case to be made all four melee ATs should be looked at from the ground up. What should happen and what can and will happen are two very different things.
    I'm certain that people could craft excellent arguments to rebuilding the entire game from the ground up, and heck that might be happening since NCSoft grabbed the domain name of cityofheroes2 a while back. But that doesn't mean that such things need to be done in this game, and nothing as extensive as rebuilding 4 ATs from the ground up will happen.

    Quote:
    I've stated before that I think if we could go back to the beginning, there should really only be two melee ATs and I stated how they could be balanced so that they're both powerful combatants and are a little closer to how things are in comics.

    One with great survivability and good aggro control, great ST damage but AoE revolving around low damage/soft crowd control.
    The other with good survivability, good AoE damage, good ST damage, attacks that lower enemy damage resistance and low aggro control.

    Solo, one is tougher, but has worse AoE damage. They end up breaking even for ST damage.
    Teamed, the first improves the survivability of the second by tanking and the second improves the damage of the first by weakening enemy resistances.

    That can't happen now, but it's closer to what I think things should have been.
    I'd like the ideas if they weren't so rigid. I love the fact that there are 4 melee ATs each with working differently than the next, each with their own flavor if you will. It provides more options for people. Some may like to play Stalkers, but abhor Tankers. Some may like Scrappers, but just can't get into Brutes. Some may love to play anything and everything this game has to offer. The more variety, the better. So long as the experience, even within a category like melee at, is unique from the other. That goes back to design intent behind the AT.
  12. Quote:
    roll a Brute if they're trumping Tankers
    The very same could be said of your Tanker damage requests.

    Which, even if done, would change nothing really for how Tankers perform their role.

    You don't seem to like the role of an aggro control character class. Yes, it stems from the days of the "holy trinity" system of older MMOs.

    Which fortunately, CoH is not. Yet, they still went an created the Tanker AT and gave it the most amount of aggro control for this type of character I'd seen in any game at the time all those tools were put into it.

    So if CoH isn't designed to work around the need for a holy trinity, why make such an AT?

    Because it can and does provide a particular game play mechanic no other AT in the game does, which is melee-centric control. It's a perfectly viable mechanic for gameplay.

    It's pretty safe to say that the aggro control mechanic is here to stay. And as such, currently Tankers were designed to be the best at it. Yet, there's a problem if they were designed to be the best at it, when another AT either gets too close to that type of performance, equals it, or surpasses it, then something needs to happen.

    Either the entire AT design of Tankers needs to be looked at and re-addressed from the ground up. Or, it's intended role needs to be looked at and adjusted inorder to ensure that it fulfills this role in a unique way and in some way that is superior to both Brutes and Scrappers.

    This isn't simply because people want to be "aggro control freaks". Though that could be a problem if you're trying to ensure particular cones are directed away from squishies etc... It's because as of now, its what Tankers were designed to do.

    Scrappers: consistant high melee damage, minor tanking ability
    Brutes: start of low melee damage, up to high melee damage, tanking ability
    Stalkers: very high single target melee damage, no tanking ability
    Tankers: moderate melee damage, high tanking ability

    It's clear that Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers have distinct roles. Brutes were meant to be a hybrid between Scrappers and Tankers. And they're pretty much designed do to so well.

    Its just that originally, brutes were meant to be hanging around Tankers, and when that became possible, the devs should've addressed those blurred lines that exist between Brutes and Tankers so they were easier to detect.
  13. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    No more Bruising.
    Unless they're going to uncouple it from the T1 and put it on every attack, no thanks.

    In fact, doesn't Titan Weapons Defensive Sweep demonstrate you can put Bruising on a Cone (and logically by extension an AoE) attack and still have it only effect one target?

    In light of that, I don't see why they shouldn't just add it to every Tanker attack.


    .
    Right now, Defensive Sweep only does Bruising on the first target if the attack hits. I'm sure they could flag the bruising portion however they wanted, to stack or not from the same caster, or stack not from same caster but other Tankers etc...

    They could also add it to cones and AoE. But I'd think that a resist debuff of 20% added to every Tanker attack would be too much. I also think that if the amount were lowered, it should certainly be added to each attack, or even allowing Tanker's secondary effects to carry over via Gauntlet, would include Bruising from the T1.

    That would make Tankers truely Melee-trollers, and allow them to debuff 5 mobs with Bruising so that even while solo, their following AoE / Cones would benefit.
  14. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    You should stop to consider that maybe that is the problem.

    That controlling aggro in and of itself isn't compelling enough for 99% of the players in the game and maybe isn't deep enough or is too artificial to build an AT around.
    In other words: do most of the people playing CoH enjoy dragging Anti-Matter around with Taunt? I'm going to take a stab in the dark and says 'no'.

    Newsflash: Tankers aren't the most popular AT in the game. That's common sense. They're an extremely specialized AT that does a job most people don't care about as long as someone is doing it. And that overspecialization is what alienates people from them.

    Pushing them further and further in that direction isn't going to improve things for them. That is counter to logic. I said before, they aren't improving Stalkers by making them turn more invisible. The proposed changes are in fact, from what I see, pushing them a little bit back towards the middle without taking anything away:

    They improving their damage out of Hide, (instead of making them Hide more for their damage).

    They're giving them what I can only call the unholy child of Criticals and Fury.

    They're upping their max HP (instead of making them more fragile).


    They aren't making them "more Stalkery", they're making them more 'rounded' and stronger towards the middle while keeping their fringe capabilities intact (but without pushing them further to the fringe). That makes sense. That's a logical approach to increase their wide appeal and competitiveness while not taking anything away from players who liked 'Stalkery' gameplay.

    So why shouldn't Tanker improvements take a similar approach?




    If this assertion is wrong when I use it to justify improving Tanker damage, why is it correct when you use it to justify aggro changes?



    .
    First, it is only your assertation that aggro control is the problem for Tankers. Its what the AT was designed for, and those design mechanics are here to stay.

    With regards to Brute damage and aggro control mechanics. First Tankers are not designed to be a high damage dealing AT. Should they do more damage? Well Bruising tells us that something was off, but that a simple increase in damage mods was not the way to go. So while the answer is or was yes, it came with one or more caveats.

    Secondly, some of the Brute gauntlet changes were made after CoV came out. Giving Brutes more tools that Tankers had. It'd be as if Scrappers were given the ability to crit when using any form of stealth. Its a tool for another AT.

    It is your steadfast refusal to see and accept what Tankers are designed to do and how they don't meet up to your expectations of what you "think" they're "suppossed to do" is the problem. Look, I can understand sticking to your guns for a right cause, but there are situations in life where if more than one person says the same thing to you about something, it may be time to consider your stance.

    You're saying the problem is this way < and then there are many people, who are quite knowledgable (far moreso than I) who are saying it isn't but its this way )))))))))))))))). You need to look at the common denonimator in this circumstances and if signs point back to you only having the problem, then perhaps it isn't the issue that's the problem, it may just be your perceptions of the issue.

    And I apologize, I'm not trying to berate you are anything, but its been years of seeing this go on
  15. The slows aren't necessary for FR, particularly with Roots available. I'd make sure you have FR up as often as possible.

    The reason I say move the proc over to Tornado is that when you have largets pinned down, or more particularly one tough target like an AV or GM, Tornado does a lot of damage. It hits often so I has a high chance of firing the proc.

    Having that high damage pet also debuff its target is good synergy.

    I just rolled at Plant / Storm as well. My first Plant character so that part is new to me. I love the character, its been by far the most fun I've had on a low level Controller that I've had.

    I'm pretty leary about going full out on planning IO sets, but if the fun only builds with levels, I may end up fleshing the character out more. I already figured on recharge and endurance being the two main parts of the build I'd have to worry about, not sure if defense is a major consideration though.
  16. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Talen Lee View Post
    Me, I'm amused by the talk of tankers who feel the aggro cap needs to be higher so they can rescue other people from their mistakes. As if the tank is the only person in the group who should be expected to play well, and as if the same scenario wouldn't just happen again if the knot of guys around the tanker was twice the size.
    That's not the reason why its being asked for. Right now, the Tanker's game play mechanic revolves around aggro control. Yet, Brutes also have the same tools as Tankers, only Tankers have the ability to Taunt / Aura-taunt / Gauntlet-taunt more mobs, except for the fact that they'll hit the aggro cap.

    Brutes can hit the aggro cap just as easily. So when the Tanker's design function is to control aggro, and they're designed to withstand the most amount of damage for a longer duration of time, but are at the same limit of what another AT can aggro, the defined role of the Tanker begins to get muddled in game. Not to mention when that other AT is almost as survivable and does more damage.

    Throughout the discussion of this thread, this realization was brought to the surface and really, it isn't too unreasonable to say, if Tankers have the tools to aggro 20 foes (Taunt+Aura+Guantlet), then let them be able to do just that. Some have asked for even higher aggro cap, but without additional tools to do so, it's rather moot. Though an idea or two have been posted about how to change those tools. It's really up to the devs at this point.
  17. You may want to consider moving something around to get a 5th slot into Tornado which also takes an achilles heal proc. In fact, I'd take it off Twoey and put in on 'nado.

    Don't forget that ontop of your defense you have a hefty to-hit debuff in Hurricane, which if you can manage to keep the really important nasty mobs at it's edge, and locked down (or kept into a corner), it'll act as defense too.
  18. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    I feel I can be bold enough to say that any Tanker (with the exception of Stone Armor) will hit the cap when teamed with one decent Kin and one or more SoA.

    Build Up for sure will ram them into it.

    On a league, chances are very good both of those will be present.

    And Kin the only buff set that would do it, but is the one that will do it the easiest. Plus there's anyone who brings Assault. Leadership pool is very popular nowadays.


    .
    Arcana hit the nail on the head. To further drive the point though, how would the change affect the archetype in the rest of the game outside of trials?

    Virtually not at all. It certainly won't help solo, and small groups. It would only benefit if the Tanker were teamed with a Kinetic using AT and they maxxed out their difficulty, or everyone else in the group went AFK and then the Tanker's damage was absolutely necessary for success. Even then, with the longevity provided by the Tanker's survivability, even being buffed to its current cap, in those same conditions, would still be sufficient for success.

    Simply put, raising the caps isn't what Tankers need. I'd highly doubt it'd make that much on an impact on trials and only serve you're particular need to see particular character's pop bigger orange numbers.

    Would I balk at the change? Nope, but I don't believe it to be necessary by any means.
  19. Ahh, Gravity, second ever character created was a Grav / Kin controller and it was my first 50, back before containment came about.

    1. Lift needs more damage - this was stated up thread - Mind's levitate is the same power and no, it shouldn't have been balanced around Propel.

    2. Animation times of Lift, Propel, and Worm Hole need to be decreased.

    3. Dimension Shift - its only useful at those levels if you're the only controller and the team manages to get too much attention that it can handle and you can take some of the mobs out of the fight. This rarely happens, and only serves to annoy most people on teams than it does to help stave off defeat.

    If it were possible, it should be changed. There were so many ideas posted about this in the past. The simplest were to make this a toggle power so it could be turn off. Or an AoE location pet power so mobs could move in out of the field. Better yet would be an Anti-Gravity Field, a location power that works like TK - except it lifts mobs off the ground randomly.

    4. WH needs a wider area of effect and the stun up front.
  20. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    Just thought of another anecdote.

    Gen13, Vol 4, #12

    The team faces teenage versions of the Authority (don't ask).

    Grunge, who can copy someone's powers and the properties of an object/material by touch, ends the battle by killing the teenage version of Apollo out of desperation. Apollo is the Authorty's Superman expy.

    A third party observer comments to the Authori-teens:

    "He beat you. You brought a tank and he had nothing. And he beat you. Go home."





    .
    Just because one, two , or a few writers at one time or another chose to make an analagy that a hard hitting tough guy is like a tank does not mean that CoH Tankers are suppossed to be like that.

    That's a completely different discussion. I wonder if Cyclops is ever referred to as a Blaster in the comics? :P
    I know that you're trying to change your tactics some JB, and say that you only want a damage cap increase because somehow, you've managed to create several tankers that hit the damage cap wall as you put it. But in reality, most of the secondary tanker sets can't do that. Outside of SS, its hard for most sets to have a +damage buff at all times. At best, most Tanker secondary sets get a form of self damage buff that they get to use some of the time by increasing the damage cap doesn't do much for the majority of the powersets Tankers use.

    Nor does it do anything for the gameplay mechanics that Tankers were designed with, which is the area I believe should be looked it in order to change Tankers. Perhaps if that were changed, it might be done in a way that does increase damage whether directly or indirectly.
  21. JB, an oft touted definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again expecting different results. You may think you've changed tactics, but only in so much as to be less confrontational. Outside of that, it's been the same as always.

    You keep quoting that old dev quote about "comic book tankers". There are no comic book tankers as the archetype system a convention of this MMO. Yes, they took inspiration from comic books, and placed labels over certain iconic characters inorder to develop the archetype system.

    But MMOs are entire different from a comic book. A good writer can take a "scrapper" and write them out to appear more like a "tanker" for example.

    As to that quote from way back when, it was brought up about given Tankers higher damage attacks, with longer activation times and longer recharge times.

    Gecko shot it down, stating that the longer activation times across the board made for the gameplay to feel way too slow and had the problem of those with faster activating attacks getting their damage in before the longer animating attacks finally did their damage.

    He also shot down the longer recharging, higher damage attacks basically sayting that nothing stopped the Tanker from still completing a extremely high damage attack chain, that (even back then on SOs and don't forget perma-hasten was possible pre-ED) with enough recharge, an attack chain would be repeatable to the point of there not being the need to have such long recharge times as a hinderance.

    Because of those two possibilities, there would be nothing to differentiate Tankers from Scrappers except that Tankers would end up actually be either too close to Scrapper damage, or in other cases do more than Scrappers. While still having the Tanker higher stats.

    And FYI, many of the player examples toted about for the requests above were using Spider-Man or Wolverine (mostly the latter) for Scrappers, and Colossus or the Thing for Tankers.

    That still doesn't change the fact that this is a video game, with archetypes designed for particular function(s). And while you spout that the "holy trinity" is bad, this game never was really designed around the "holy trinity".

    From early on, it was discovered you could have really any team make up complete most content and that those niche roles could be of use anywhere (not no where!).

    Tanker's aren't designed to be "military tanks". Nor are they designed to be "tanks from comics" as there aren't any Tankers in comics. No superhero has a aura that forces the bad guys to turn and fight them. No superhero has a punch that makes the other bad guys ignore the other heroes nearby and only attack the one to just punched their buddy.

    And every superhero has at one point in time or another taunted a bad guy by saying or doing something in order to throw the bad guy off their game, get under their skin, or gain their attention. It's just the basis of for the design for the power Taunt. How it works and why it does is the convention of the MMO.

    Tankers in this game have been designed to be aggro magnets, taking punishment to help their teammates survive difficult situations, while lasting long enough to defeat their enemies.

    I agree that there may be some inequity when it comes to the AT. But I don't tend to think in the terms that they need to somehow do more damage by a straight forward means. Instead, I think that there needs to be something done about the gameplay mechanics for how a Tanker is played in order to set them apart a bit more from the other melee ATs. Right now, gauntlet, aggro aurus, and taunt are available to Brutes and Tankers only do so slightly better. THATs the problem.

    Not the Brute damage, or possibility if built just so, and buffed to the caps by whatever for however long, that Brutes can do things that Tanker's can or can't. It's that Tankers don't behave differently enough because the tools that were more unique to them have been replicated elsewhere with only slight differences.

    Give the Tankers some new tools is the answer. If those tools allow them to do some more damage, great. If they give them more melee control, great. Either way, the AT will play differently from the other melee ATs and hopefully, that will appeal to players.
  22. The beginning portion of it sounds as fine to me as the first part of the plot of the original movie.

    Neither really makes sense as to why Tetsuo needs to be experimented on. At least to my recollection of the original anime.

    At least the ending sounds a bit more understandable compared to the ending of Akira, which felt like they really didn't know what to do with it and just cobbled together *something* to make the movie end.

    As for casting, I personally don't care either way what color of a person's skin plays what character, so long as the story and acting are good.
  23. I just don't see Tankers receiving a straight up increase in damage. It may be done in a round about way like Bruising.

    Tankers aren't called meleetrollers for no reason. They aren't melee damagers, never have been, and most likely, never will be. It's not what the AT is designed for. If you want that (melee damage), you're looking at the wrong AT.

    With regards to the meleetrollers, I once way back, posted an idea that targets under the effect of a Tanker's Taunt (not a Brutes / Scrappers, or anyone's provoke for that matter), would have an increased chance of any Tanker's secondary effect going off, and with greater effect.

    Example 1: Tanker A enters melee with Invincibility. The aura taunts a mob. Tanker A uses an attack with a 30% chance to mag 2 stun, but since its on a Tanker-Taunted-Target, there's now a 60% chance to mag 3 stun.

    Example 2: Tanker A enters melee with Invincibility. The aura tuants a mob. Tanker B uses Taunt. Tanker A uses an attack with 30% chance to mag 2 stun, but since its on a Tanker-Taunted-Target, there's now a 60% chance to mag 3 stun. Tanker B uses an attack that has a 40% chance to mag2 knockdown, but since its on a Tanker-Taunted-Target, its now a 80% chance to mag3 knockdown.

    The numbers are just an example. I wouldn't know what, if any actual increase would be best for a secondary effect to fire off, but a simple increase by mag 1 to the effect should be sufficient.

    Now Tankers are truely melee trollers, the only one that really loses out is say Fire Melee, even then, there might be a way to have the dot fire at a greater rate under a Taunt.

    Other sets like Dark Melee would have better to-hit debuffing. Sets with defense debuff, - resistance, etc.. would all benefit.

    Another way to do things is to allow a - resistance to all Tanker Taunted Targets, but only flagged for Tanker attacks. It won't stack with other Tanker -resist debuffs, but Tankers would always essentially doing more damage with their own, or other Tanker's attacks.
  24. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    Okay, are you going to actually test defeat times, like I asked, or just give me numbers? What is the difference in spawn defeat times of a similarly built Brute and Tanker? Is it 40-60%, or significantly less?
    That's a better question to ask a dev than a player. Something like this takes datamining to get an across the board numbers in order to analyze. Even then, it may be up to the dev's determination of what is "normal leveling speed" which has to take into account level by level, AT by AT, and include things such as average defeats, etc...

    It's not cut and dry, take to like sets, with like builds from Brutes and Tanks, and attack the same spawn. If that were the metric, Brutes would pretty much come out the "winner". It wouldn't matter by how much, even something as insignificant as 5 seconds could end up leading to something much larger if that were spanned throughout the entire leveling career of those to characters.

    Look at it like this, Bruising was added to Tanks when there was an extreme minority asking for any Tanker improvements at the time. It's because there was a problem.

    I believe there still is. I don't agree with JB much, and won't even say that Tankers need anything that increases damage like a damage cap increase (though I wouldn't shy away from it either ), or increasing base damage, or things of that sort.

    What I do agree with is that adding Bruising to the first tier attack was probably the quick solution that may not have been the best solution. I have no way to know if by modifying the Bruising effect across multiple attacks (the value and duration thereof) caused other types of problems or not.

    It could be that this solution may not have been ideal, but it was the only one really available to solve the few issues Tankers have: Lower damage creates a longer time to defeat, particularly at early levels, the use of more attacks forces the use of more endurance to defeat in a given particular amount of time.

    This change really doesn't do much to help the AoE defeat times, and doesn't quite equate to a full "damange increase" as JB said. That may be by intent as well, by adding a 20% unresistable debuff to resistance on the lower tier attack equated to an appropriate amount of damage increase over all to single target damage to resolve whatever disparity the devs found.

    If so, it'd be nice just to have an answer to that. And if not, how then can Bruising be changed in order to more adequately resolve these issues.

    And finally, yes, Tankers need their agro cap increased. And that doesn't negate the need for multiple Tankers on a team map. Damage is damage, aggro control is aggro control If there are two tankers on a team and the team is good enough, the Tankers can take on even more mobs than just one Tanker could.
  25. One of the issues of Tanker survivability stats and the agro cap begs the question, are Tankers too survivable when Brutes and even Scrappers can (in most cases, w/ out IOs - there are some outlier sets that are very difficult to do this with) survive the agro cap as well.

    If that's true, then is it okay that Tankers are any more survivable? The only advantage would seem to be at increased levels of difficulty (above +0), where the higher Tanker values come into play. Or do those values come into play with sustained agro cap over time?

    That is, when as mobs within the agro cap are defeated, more add in, at some point, Tankers will survive longer than either Brutes or Scrappers. And if that's true, is it beneficial for a team to have a Tanker be that survivable by that point, or does the team (we're talking normal content, at normal levels of play including builds) provide sufficient levels of mitigation and or damage that they wouldn't notice the difference between a Tanker, Scrapper, or Brute managing agro (again, we're looking at sustained agro cap over time, very large mobs)?

    If that answer is yes, than Tankers are pretty much fine where they're at. If that answer is no, there's a problem.

    With regards to the idea that its ok that using more endurance to defeat a mob because it takes more attacks that do less damage, but the Tanker can survive longer - look to the questions above. If a Brute and a Scrapper can go through the same levels of difficulty (within normal game play) than isn't that lower damage and higher endurance usage actually causing a player using a Tanker to level more slowly? Keep in mind, this is part of the reason as to why Bruising was given to Tankers. I don't know if Bruising solved this issue, it may have at least for single targets, but there's an inequity when it comes to AoE attacks.