T_Immortalus
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Quote:1) Most people do not question it. I didn't at first because I just wanted to play.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Good luck with that. I don't know of any law that would prevent this kind of thing from happening, because with the free month, you have a month to educate yourself about the policy. Or, knowing that it's a subscription-based game, you shouldn't be surprised that it comes with a subscription cost.
2) Those who do question then just avoid subscription game on principle, same with other services. They don't have a real right to sue when they have no idea how it really is and haven't fallen prey to it.
3) Laws are reactive and get made when things are found to be wrong. There could very well be no law truly preventing it, but a civil suit brought against the company can still be made and eventually lead to a law if the companies do not voluntarily change as a result of the case.
4) It isn't the subscription that is an issue, not entirely. I would gladly pay for "server access fees", but I expect that if I pay a fee for content I will be able to use that content without accessing the servers and being forced to pay again. -
Quote:No, that is always likely because of human nature.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The fact that you got yours for free doesn't give your point any more validity. The fact is other people do pay, and for your point to be valid all those people who do pay would have to be doing so without reason. Which means not just MMOs, but lots of subscription industries all over the place would have to be violating this principle of yours.
As to the notion that the only reason this still happens is because no one has thought to sue over it, that's not likely.
There is always someone who is greedy and there is always someone who will follow another's example.
We have laws because we have had things happen that we need to prevent from happening again.
The law itself is reactive, not proactive. It is about deterrence and punishment when deterrence fails, not prevention as if "we stopped you from stealing, go along your merry way now" instead of "you are going to jail for attempted theft".
Companies do what others do that works as well. They have a $15 monthly subscription because other companies set theirs at that point and it worked fine for them.
People used to be screwed over by price-gouging all over until laws were made to prevent it.
Seriously, you can't argue "it hasn't happened yet" as a reason for "it will never happen" since obvious things like "no human has set foot on Mars" are only true because we haven't done it yet.
And if it does happen and the financial model they have been using is perfectly legal then what happens?
I shut my mouth then since it is finally questioned and decided by a lot of people who seriously consider the possibility that it could be illegal.
It has to be tried first. -
Quote:So I couldn't have made a mistake in the past by paying for a subscription for content I already purchased, blissfully unaware?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Well, you've been doing both for years under the current City of Heroes model, so I would say it can't be that much of a problem for you. You're going to find, if you pay attention, that this issue of paying for general access, and then paying for specific elements within the thing you access, is actually extremely common, not just in gaming, but literally everywhere.
There are people who fight for that bliss as well.
Actually, such access is a service then, there is no content provided, least of all a physical item. If there is a physical item then it is specifically listed as "free" so they can stop use of it without costing you a dime or it is agreed upon with a signed agreement before they charge you for it.
Maybe I should go ahead and sue. I wonder if I can find a lawyer or group of lawyers that will try this logically pretty sound case and only charge when/if I win?
It would sure teach these companies a lesson about fair treatment of customers.
I really don't want to kill a good game with legal proceedings that will drastically reduce their available revenue though. -
Quote:My question was rhetorical.Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I already told you how many you need up thread. Then I asked a question. How many veteran months do you have?
It takes so many months(you posted it) to unlock them, but it takes zero months to buy access to them.
So where is the official statement saying "those who have purchased City of Heroes and Villains retain access to masterminds and controllers"?
It's not so much a point for me, as I will have access to them thankfully, but a point for other newer subscribers or those of the future who subscribe or don't ad buy the boxes.
This is also an issue with AE and the Architect Edition of the game which I purchased.
Pretty much, their point about "customers will retain everything they have purchased" is either incompletely explained because they didn't explain that box purchases include those archetypes(because they do) or it is a mistaken oversight that needs to be rectified or it is an outright lie. -
Quote:Right now they do. I could sue them for past expenses, the box and content costs specifically(and get much more than I paid as a punishment to the company for screwing customers), for charging a secondary fee that was not agreed to on a signed form before purchase.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
1) But THEY'RE not turning it off: you are.
If they can ban you from accessing the content, not just the servers, then they are illegally banning you or illegally charging for the content, or illegally not allowing private use of the content.
This has been tested with movies. Movie owners are now, at least in the US, legally allowed to make back up copies of their own movies that they paid to own without a secondary fee despite movie companies not wanting that allowed.
TV service providers, internet service providers and even cellphone providers all offer free hardware with a service agreement because of competition and legal issues with charging for an unusable product. They also make you sign agreements for such even if they charge for it, before they charge you.
And, you know what?
I really didn't want to get this discussion on the question of legality, even if it is a big part of this.
I just want to play the game and purchase new content, while retaining all the content I paid for, and have it be fair to everyone in the future where all options are viable. -
Quote:I don't wan to touch the issue of "we already paid for booster packs which were fine" because they don't include time to use them at all, unlike the box/digital game purchases, and they were made using developer time taken away from improving the game we pay for them to improve it, through both/either box costs and server access fees.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
3. Even if we players voluntarily pay more than our subscriptions under Freedom than now, just like now its still not unfair if we are getting more for our dollar. Booster packs, for example, are not "unfair." Paragon experimented with releasing more content somewhat ala carte, and players were willing to buy it. If we didn't buy all those booster packs when they were released, we wouldn't then be getting all that content for free instead: we just wouldn't be getting it at all.
If I get more game for the same amount of money I used to pay, that's more than fair. The fact that Freedom might have even more than that for me to buy is not unfair, its being like every other store in existence. Even at my salary, there aren't many stores I actually shop at where I can buy out the entire store.
I just can't legally or ethically rectify the cost of content and the cost of server access fees on top of each other.
One doesn't make sense when the other is present unless the latter is optional. -
Quote:1) I disagree with their option to turn off access to the content I paid an ownership fee for beyond the first month payment of $15.Originally Posted by Selina_H
I'm boggling at this. Are you saying it's not fair that, under the current system, you get nothing if you pay nothing? Seriously?
Wow. I only watch about an hour or two of actual (non-Hulu) cable TV a week. I sure wish Time Warner would reimburse me for all that time I spent sleeping instead. Again, seriously?
They charged me more than $15 for the box; they even charged more than $15 for a digital copy.
That is not right in any way to deny content the customer owns even if they can't use it on the company servers.
2) You pay as a service for Hulu, not as a product. You have to sign an agreement before you can pay as well, right?
This game requires no service agreement and we pay for content as well. That is not right.
You also can record things on Hulu when you are unable to watch it, right? You can on satellite TV with a free DVR box with the agreement. -
Quote:1) They haven't questioned it which is why it hasn't been tried yet. Maybe they haven't thought of it like I have yet or any other reason that prevents them like I have my reasons.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You have a highly skewed version of reality. Not even the most hardened opponents of onerous EULAs that I know would agree with you that requiring a subscription to use a service is illegal or unethical. This occurs all the time. You pay to install a satellite television system, but you still have to pay a subscription to use it.
2) Yes, a service fee is fine, but they charge both as a service and a product.
3) I got a free DVR and tuner box with a satellite TV service agreement. I didn't have to buy it first then pay again to use it. If anything, they are both included in an agreement signed before installation, unlike MMO games.
You just gave more credit to my point. -
Quote:no, I know how it works, but not everyone has enough months.Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Now I see where your panties got all up in that bunch. You have no idea how the Paragon Rewards system works. And that's not an insult, it's an observation. You really don't.
How many months veteran do you have?
How many veteran badges does it take to unlock the mastermind and controller?
How many veteran badges does it take to buy the box that definitely includes one of those 2 archetypes as a feature?
there is a discrepancy that needs to be rectified there.
I can see holding them back for those who did not make a box purchase, but anybody who has bought a box paid for those archetypes as part of the original game. -
Quote:That does not prove it when their right to deny you access to content you paid to own is also in question.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I can prove you did not pay for access in perpetuity to those ten archetypes by buying the boxed editions. Stop subscribing now, then check to see how many you continue to have access to.
(edit: their right to turn off access to the server is theirs, but not a right to turn off access to the content, that is what is in question)
What does the $35 beyond the $15 for the first month actually cover?
Answer that and you shall see my point.
I bought that content. I have a physical disk. I have the right to use it.
What if I bought a digital copy at $30(or whatever) that included a month of time?
What does the extra $15 cover?
I have the right to use the content that I obviously paid directly for, which is easily proven by the above digital example.
The ONLY reason this still happens is that they have not been tried in court yet to set a precedent that forces companies into a more fair business practice.
I guarantee somebody could sue and either reach a huge settlement that makes the company change the policy, and all others with the same policy, or goes to court and wins.
I even believe it would happen with other companies even after changing their policy due to previous customers being under the problem model.
I would sue if I thought I could get a lawyer to try it with little money and wanted to destroy the company, but I just want them to be better.
I don't want to force them to be more fair. I want them to choose it so I don't have to. -
Quote:Which is why I made the distinction later on that you pay $50 for the box which includes only one month of game time that costs maximum of $15.Originally Posted by Dr_Illuminatis
You aren't paying for the game when you purchase the box. You're paying to have initial access to the game.
Either that is one hell of a price gouge at $35 for the physical materials included or they are charging for the content development and thus ownership of that content in so far as you are allowed to use it, under the same rules that allow users to make copies of their movies for their own private use and can use their movies without an additional fee.
Either they are overcharging or they are charging when they should not be.
Neither is right. -
Quote:News to me. A friend in the beta told me they are for sale at about $12 of points per archetype.Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
That's the funniest decision ever. "You know what people will really pay for? Arachnos Soldiers." That's like GM suddenly adding a surcharge for the radio in your new Chevy to receive AM stations.
I'll be seriously pissed if I can't at least pay a one time fee to unlock my existing epic archetype characters, even if per character. -
Quote:1) Forum tip of the day: Insult others when they accuse you of insulting them. It makes you look so much better. /sarcasmOriginally Posted by Lemur Lad
Forum Tip of the day: If you say it's going to be your last post in the thread, don't come back and post more. Certainly don't come back and post another page and a half of the same rambling stuff.
They aren't. Premium accounts keep what they've paid for. ATs included. Unless there's been some clarification since the 5-10 times I saw it directly reported from SDCC that that was the case.
See, this is what I mean about you not having a fundamental grasp of certain facts. Cite where you get this information, state your point clearly, and you can be corrected. Stop running so far afield when you're not even fully conversant of the basics.
(Yes, the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated, makes it perfectly fine for me to say that because you asked for it by treating me as such.)
2) http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=268436
Where do Masterminds and Controllers get unlocked? Tier 5? $195 worth or so after Freedom launches? 3 times that before it launches?
I could have sworn that I paid about $50 for City of Villains and about $50 for City of Heroes, and an additional $30 for both with all 3-4 different versions I purchased over the years, which definitely included 5 archetypes each, "tanker, blaster, scrapper, defender AND controller" and "brute, corruptor, stalker, dominator AND mastermind".
They're well beyond $100 spent in the tiers and I don't even get credit for that $100 on the tiers to unlock them.
Tell me where it says I will get my mastermind and controller unlocked simply for owning a boxed copy?
Nowhere?
That seems like a serious oversight that needs correcting. -
Quote:I could not resist quoting this and adding to it.Originally Posted by Dr_Illuminatis
The only thing required for them to do with our subscription money, is to keep the servers up and maintain the game as it is. Anything other than that is something they have time to work on because they want us to keep playing.
That is why I have a problem with Freedom.
1) I literally did pay for all base 10 archetypes, including masterminds and controllers, because I bought the first boxes that included them.
If they are going to let us keep what we have purchased then they shouldn't be taking those archetypes away from me and those others who bought the boxes. They have record of serial codes applied to ensure this.
Go ahead Lemur Lad; refute that the first boxes included those archetypes as a feature under the same price. I would like to see the excuse for letting people play the other 8 for free while those who purchased can't play all 10. Not even "performance issues" could be cited as a good enough reason.
2) That was always an issue with the subscription, and remains so for every mandatory subscription game. It's a legal issue.
They sell it like any other game, but require a second purchase to use it. That would be highly illegal price-gouging if not for the free month of play included with the purchase, but it may not be enough.
A) You still pay full ownership price for the box, not just the $15 for the game time. You own it so, legally, you have the right to use it even fi that means offline.
B) That doesn't account for other content which must follow the same rules.
Any expansion or downloadable content does require the initial box purchase(but you wouldn't buy it without that anyway) but it also does not include any minimum amount of time to use it.
I wouldn't be surprised if a game company, even Blizzard, lost the battle over that sticky issue of charging for ownership but requiring "server access fees" before you can use it.
Not even the EULA and ToS and fine print on the box saying "additional online fees apply" can save them from the trouble of selling ownership of a product, like a movie, and not allowing use of it without an additional subscription "rental fee".
The reason they put "server access fees" in the agreement where you must click "yes" to play the game is to allow them to charge you extra for content, despite the fact that the content needs to be usable without those fees otherwise you do not own it and should not be charged for ownership then.
There are only 3 solutions to that which could avoid legal issues.
A) Stop charging for content and let people download the game and all content for free but require a subscription.
B) Stop charging a subscription and rely on content sales to cover operating costs(which works extremely well).
C) Keep charging ownership and subscriptions, but allow players to use the game and all content offline if they choose. Additional players are not guaranteed with any game so they don't have to include any way to play with others, but they could allow LAN play as well to encourage purchases.
Point is, the mandatory subscription, and even the optional one, are problematic. They have to be done right or there are a lot of legal issues that can be brought up.
I am actually thoroughly amazed that nobody has tried to sue Blizzard or any other subscription MMO company because of this.
Don't tell me it's not an issue because of the EULA ToS or whatever document the game company has. Those haven't been tested enough in court and often they won't hold up, which is why the legal team is always trying to update them to cover as many holes as possible. The very act of selling a non-refundable(due to laws) product before making a customer agree to the EULA and ToS that requires a secondary purchase is likely illegal.
3) The very truth that subscriptions do not cover content costs is worrying for subscribers.
That gives them free reign to add content to the store that you have to pay extra for, just like the premium members, and nothing new for your subscription, leaving you with just the exclusives and $5 of points for $15 in cost.
It's very likely that a subscription will be far from worth it when you end up paying $10 more than everyone else for a few exclusives that may not be enough to justify that extra payment.
P.S.
1) Yes, I get more with Freedom by unsubscribing than I do before Freedom, but that is no excuse for taking away certain content(masterminds and controllers) that were included in content I paid to own.
It also does not justify the required payments for content as a subscriber when the subscription should allow use of all content so long as you subscribe, otherwise it looks like a lot of price-gouging of subscribers while the F2P purchasers get more fair treatment.
That is why I do not wish to subscribe, on top of the other reasons mentioned before.
I do not trust them to give subscribers what they pay for fairly under the evident system.
2) I may get more from unsubscribing after Freedom than before, but that doesn't mean before was right or fair or that after is entirely right or fair to subscribers or non-subscribers.
3) I still don't think all that time I paid for and could not use, due to real life things like sleeping and work, was right either. The fact that they treat my account as lesser value than a continuing/new subscriber with Freedom despite all that money I spent and didn't get the full value of(like a prepaid cellphone plan would allow full value usage) does not make me happy. It's not right or fair.
Yes, they have a right to make money, but they should be adding to the game to do so and will be doing that so it is unnecessary and unfair to take away things that were already paid for or paid for in all that wasted value with unused time.
After all, what "server access fees" are necessary when you are not accessing the servers?
Edit:
@Lemur Lad
Search massively.joystiq.com for at least one example of news about a study being done that "only 10% of F2P players spend money".
Even if that is an extreme case. Lots of F2P players, expected under common sense, will not spend anything, especially if they don't see much reason to. Many are probably cheap but many are also just wise in having to justify purchases.
You're just intentionally insulting me there, especially since you can't possibly say that about my post on page 7.Quote:Complexity of thought and language is fine when you have the skills and take the time to convey it, but you haven't.
You can't take the moral high-ground by taking the moral low-ground.
If you aren't blindly defending a system then counter the points made with evidence to the contrary or accept them as predictions of the future(in the cases when they are) that are just concerns that I would not like to come to pass and may or may not come to pass.
Just know, when(implied if, as always) these things do come to pass that it will not be good for anyone who subscribes.
Edit 2:
Lots of non-paying players means lower performance for everyone and higher cost for the game. That is why it is a bad thing.
They need to encourage people to pay, not demand it when people have a choice to not pay.
They only hurt their veterans with demands by taking away things or making some things exclusive when they probably shouldn't be or making them pay extra beyond the monthly subscription too much.
They're "right to make money" is really our "right to spend money" when we want to. They need to make us want to spend, not feel obligated yet again. We'll support them if they are fair to us. -
I would like a Time Control set as I posted an idea, that is now gone form the forums, 3 years or so ago.
I actually really really like your idea for a pet.
It would be awesome to summon an alternate version of ourselves, using our costume but with the ghostly effect that incarnate lore pets have as well.
I would make it more like the current Singularity pet from Gravity Control where it is highly resistant to most damage and mezzes for balance and story reasons(after all having your former/future/alternate self killed wouldn't make much sense and if it couldn't be killed then it would mean it has strong defenses you grant it).
I would also make it do negative energy damage for two reasons.
1) It's an alternate version of yourself, sort of an opposite, perhaps even from an alternate universe where energy and negative energy are switched.
2) Scientists have theorized that travel through time or manipulation of it would require "dark energy" or "negative energy" to be possible in any measurable sense.
I happen to think all time based attacks should be negative energy for the reason stated above.
It's not an issue right now with Time Manipulation doing no damage and thus having no apparent damage type.
This would also give us a set other than "dark" that does negative energy like sets other than "energy" do energy damage. Many people also do not like the "smoke" graphics of dark either, especially when it should be more like a black version of radiation blast in looks.
Edit:
I swear Time Manipulation looks a lot like the set idea I came up with back then. I even called it either Time Manipulation or Temporal Control.
Edit 2:
Definitely want the ally for this to be focused more on mezzes than damage. I love that Singularity pet. He must be given flight as well(not there so technically weighs nothing) because that helps tremendously with pathing issues and following a flying player.
I actually hop all pets get upgraded speed soon. They all all so slow to follow that you have to teleport them around many times. -
This is the last time I am posting in this thread, and only because you people don't even try to comprehend the literal meaning of my words. I guess I need to explain yet again.
Quote:I paid for the things I have and want to keep.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Basically, he's whining because he wants something for nothing and he can't have it.
I bought the original game boxes and every game box since that included bonuses and game time. I paid for access to the original 10 non-epic archetypes by buying the boxes. They should be included in those purchases.
Yes, completely free players should not have access to them because they didn't buy a boxed version, but I paid for the content that was included in the boxed games specifically(the basic 10 are on the boxes listed as a feature).
I wonder if they will continue selling boxed games or digital copies that no longer include what they say they do? They probably will see a false advertising case because of this if somebody is sue-happy.
I'm ok with losing epic archetypes, really, because I did not pay directly for them. That's an extra payment I can deal with, even if it is a bit expensive and sucks to have my existing characters taken away.
My main concerns with the invention system lockout until a certain level of spending(or with a sneaky little licence/subscription scam) are that it comes way too late in the reward tiers beyond other things many people have constantly expressed their desire to skip because they suck and that so much other content depends on the system that it would be foolish to lock it away for so long.
Everything beyond the old TO/DO/SO system has something to do with the invention system. You have AE tickets that won't be worth much anymore(when really that should still be good but kill the xp and inf rewards of AE) without invention recipes and salvage to buy. You have merits for TFs/SFs that will also be mostly worthless and no longer be incentive for people to run old content that doesn't see much use. You have alignment merits, which are included with the Going Rogue alignment change system(I better have this system since I own Going Rogue and it is a feature on the box) that pay for recipes almost exclusively.
It's just not wise to do that, especially forcing somebody to either spend a high amount or buy into a pseudo-subscription.
I can see restricting that content some, but not to tier 7 at 27 months of subscription or $405(note 1) of direct payments or any combination of both. That's just plain stupid and greedy and probably insane.
I'm ok with that. I'm not getting new stuff for free, of which there will be a ton of. I still will have more than enough reason to pay more than $15 per month, but it's a choice, "pay or don't enjoy that stuff", that can be put off if finances are not doing so well.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really simple: If you stop paying a monthly subscription fee, you aren't going to have all the same stuff as people who do.
They ARE going to add a boatload of new stuff to the store, so they don't need to restrict us former subscribers from certain things we already have that are so very important(especially not archetypes that were included in box purchases).
F2P makes money off more content. That is how it works. They don't need to take away past content nor should they. They have plenty of room to add more content than we ever had before to the store and end up rich for it.
So, why make your past subscribers(like me having paid over $500 total over the years) feel like their money isn't worth as much to you anymore? Why make their subscribed time worth less than that of a new or continuing subscriber, especially when you have a "subscriber only" tier to entice?
(I also think most subscribers won't reach tier 9, without insane spending on top of the subscription, before the tier 9 VIP items are swapped out, and that is a bad move.)
After further thought, I actually won't have to pay much extra by unsubscribing and going Premium, but subscribers will, eventually if not immediately.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The ONLY way you have to pay extra for stuff is if you want to stop paying a monthly fee.
I will always have to pay for things in the store as F2P/Premium, but subscribers have that stipend to soften it a bit.
The only problem with that is the stipend guarantees that they want subscribers to have things to purchase and do so.
I can guarantee that, eventually if not immediately, content release to the store will greatly outstrip the subscriber stipend to the point that even saving will not get you one quarter of the things in the store, while you see less content included with the subscription which you will also lose if you unsubscribe.
Your subscription covers almost everything right now, but, after Freedom, it will cover far less than that.
The "freemium model" is meant to have an optional subscription where subscribers get some exclusives and get most content while they remain subscribed with the stipend for temporary boosts and a bit of content from the store(or unlocks should they choose to let the sub lapse at a point in the future), while the free players pay for everything directly, paying more if they get everything.
The one CoH is using is making both pay much more(eventually for sure) and leaving very little reason to actually subscribe(the exclusives) which may not be important enough to free players to subscribe for. (I can see the grindy Incarnate System, that requires large groups, getting less and less easy to find groups with server transfers of some to the VIP server and others letting their subscription lapse, not to mention the server transfers to spread out to lower population servers where play will be smoother than the servers packed by the influx of free players.)
It seem like, eventually, the subscription(as they will be changing it for Freedom) will just be $15 for access to all old content and some content from the store, a few unnecessary exclusives(if you can play free without them then they are unnecessary, plus people may not put much weight into them for whatever reason such as grind) and $5-6(6 with the extra points for VIPs at a high tier) worth of points, 1 paragon reward token and a signature story arc(which may only be a single mission or 3 given at a time for all we know). (all that per month and only as long as the subscription is maintained.) It will essentially just be the exclusives and point stipend that make subscribing worth it, but even those will likely not be enough to entice or keep subscriptions as the store fills with more requiring extra money.
Maybe you think a subscription for that stuff above, which still requires extra purchases to be made for most new content, is just fine, but, personally, it doesn't look quite worth it to me.
I can tell you it certainly may not be worth enough for those coming here because of F2P who didn't find the subscription worth it before Freedom. They tend to spend less with statistics showing(as best they can) that most F2P players pay little or nothing while 10% of them pay more than the equivalent of $15 per month to varying degrees, while still not subscribing.
It looks like subscribers will be the ones paying extra while free/premium players will pay less overall for the same content as time goes on.
I think that sums up my point pretty well.
Veteran premium players, and free newbies a bit too, are getting a raw deal at first, losing masterminds and controllers that were included with the CoH and CoV boxes(meaning they should keep access to them for buying the boxes) and the invention system that is pivotal to a lot of content, but subscribers will end up with a worse deal if Freedom continues the way it apparently is(encouraging subscribers to spend more than their stipend in the store).
That is why my original, admittedly harsh, post that started this debate.
If you didn't read and try to understand that(guess you won't read this either), including the correct meaning of it, then you have just shot your rebuttal in the foot, so do yourself a favor and reread as objectively as your possible rage(possible because you shouldn't be raging after this post) will let you.
Edit:
I also bought the Architect Entertainment boxed edition of the game, so I can make a case for having full access to that system with my account as well. FYI
Edit 2:
(note 1): 27 months of subscription for newbies after Freedom launches, but 81 months for current veterans at $1215 already spent on the game just to unlock tier 7 benefits of the invention and AH systems. WOW! That's a...lot late in the tiers for your veterans who will not be happy to lose the invention benefits(such as set bonuses and the ability to craft more or drops to sell or ability to sell them). I guess it's only the most veteran who "deserve" that content, and anyone who may not have been able to subscribe earlier and continue subscribing, perhaps because they were too young or didn't know CoH existed because of no advertising from CoH, are left to wait a long long time or spend a LOT.
/shakesheadindismay -
Quote:I'm just saying 2 things to clarify for those who seem to not know how to read.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
All you seem to be saying is you expected to stop paying your subscription and get everything you wanted for free, and now you've decided to stop paying your subscription and not play instead. You know what? I'm ok with that "change" in decision. Somehow, I think NCSoft is fine with it also.
1) I want to buy "content" not "time", thus stopping subscribing.
This should be a perfectly valid and worthwhile choice for those who choose it. As of the current Freedom info, it is not worthwhile because you lose access to a lot that you "can't even purchase" as it is "subscriber only".
2) I may have been harsh up there, but I think this is a pretty crappy system for any vet who either can't(I have low funds ok, get off my back) or won't out of the principle of paying for unused time(this sucks too).
Learn to read people.(wasn't in reference to you Arcanaville, but you did miss what I said I want(to buy content not time)
Edit:
Again for emphasis....
I want to pay.
I don't want free.
I just don't want to pay for time and not get all of it.
Even paying by the hour is preferable to monthly. -
I'm putting this here because I have no idea where else to that I can even post.
I'm a loyal 33+ month veteran of this game.
I've had a lot of fun in this game and bought quite a bit of extras, from every boxed deal/rerelease to many boosters.
I've recommended and defended this game to many people.
I've been an active voice helping other players understand the newbie-unfriendly overcomplicated immersion-breaking systems in a messy overly-complex UI of this game.
I've been extra excited for each new issue.
I've eagerly made a new character using the newest power set each new issue.
I am excited for the new issue.
I love the new things coming.
I can't wait to play Time Manipulation.
I can't wait to be able to buy things that I actually want directly instead of renting access and paying for things i don't want.
I have been hoping that this would make content more frequent and even better through direct ales giving developers a direct line of feedback as to which content is best done so that they can improve and sell us more.
I knew the future of city of Heroes was bright.
I'm sorry, but I say no.
No, it is not that good anymore.
I was wrong.
I have become less and less and less and less enthusiastic about the new issue, issue 21, coming out soon with every few days.
I have been learning all the details as they have been released, but also later as someone points me to things I missed.
I have questions, but even more answers that are not good.
I "was" looking forward to CoH: Freedom.
I "was" thinking this would be a much more fair financial model akin to those used by DDO and LOTRO.
I "was" sure that I would retain everything I had already paid for and most of the unlocked things.
I "was" certain that, even if I had to pay a premium, I would be able to permanently unlock content.
! "was" certain that the developers would be moving away from making content take longer and be rented to make money.
I "was" certain that the way they would make money would be through releasing new content that people want to buy.
I "knew" that this would be a version of F2P that would make every customer feel that their money spent was welcome and worthwhile.
I was very wrong.
I have discovered that despite over 33 months of veteran time, fully paid, I will be losing access to 6 archetypes that I previously had access to.
I have discovered that, apparently, I will even lose access to the characters I have already made that are of those archetypes.
I have discovered that I will have to pay a pseudo-subscription "license" just to "rent" the invention system or AE.
I have discovered that purchasing that "license", or not, will still not allow me to benefit from any invention origin set bonuses.
I have discovered that the "licenses" can be avoided, and I can get back partially systems which I already have, by subscribing for approximately another year after Freedom goes live to unlock the remaining Paragon Rewards tiers.
I have seen how the game used to play.
I have seen what these overly-complicated systems add to the game, and it is worth the complication.
I have played this game before it was even half as good as it is now.
I have seen that almost everything that has been added to the game while I was subscribed, or unable to pay, will be taken away with Freedom.
I have seen that some of it will be locked behind the subscription with no option to unlock.
I have seen that some of it will only be accessible through a "pseudo-subscription" fee.
I predict, many VIP players will switch to the VIP only sever.
I predict, the decision to restrict the invention system will mean less people will pay to deal with it.
I predict, demand will increase but supply will inevitably not keep pace, driving the in game market prices to the inf cap for even more items.
I predict, the restriction of the incarnate system to VIP subscribers only, and absolutely, will result in fewer incarnate trial teams to be found, especially with VIP subscribers leaving for another server.
I predict, there will be very little grind to keep non-subscribers busy with them being restricted almost entirely to SOs.
I predict that even generic IOs will not take long enough to obtain to earn much money from "licenses" and keep people busy.
Most of all....
I was excited, but now I am starting to feel hatred towards this game and the decisions made.
I have seen other F2P models. I have seen other F2P conversions from P2P.
i have seen the past history of this game and its extra content sales.
I have seen other F2P games sell temporary stat boosts.
I have seen other F2P games sell content unlocks.
I have seen other F2P games treat their veterans well.
I am seeing City of Heroes do some of those.
I am seeing City of Heroes not do some of those.
An am seeing City of Heroes make mistakes. I am seeing it make mistakes that I can't accept on principle, let alone on my wallet.
I was hoping for F2P to continue supporting the best MMO I have ever played.
I was hoping that my patronage and money spent would be welcomed and worthwhile.
I was hoping to be able to pay a fair price and get what I pay for.
I was not hoping for a grind reset back to 2006.
I was not hoping for more grind that I had to pay a lot for.
I was hoping to no longer be charged for a rental fee when the rented property was not even in use.(server access fees while I sleep)
I was hoping for fun above all else.
I do not think it is smart or fair to lock existing characters away from veteran players, especially not those that have played over a year already. I have never seen a game do this before without a mandatory subscription.
I do not think it is smart or fair to lock away content permanently behind the subscription without a one-time purchase method of unlocking it as well. Content should be for all.
I do not think it is smart of fair to lock away systems behind a subscription then sell only part of the system back for a temporary fee that is no different than a subscription. This is just a dirty trick to get a subscription out of non-subscribers.
I do not think it is smart or fair to treat your veterans as less than new subscriptions. they are the reason your game still exists, and you have the nerve to give them a reduced amount of rewards from Paragon Reward Tokens compared to subscriptions after Freedom launches?! You have the nerve to tell them "you will be able to unlock all that you have access to" and yet still leave certain major benefits like the character classes they had and systems they had access to at such a high tier that only the most senior of veterans can even get those basic systems they all once had?!
You have the nerve to take things away from them that they have paid for over many months and years and charge them to get it back?! Why not just keep everything locked behind a subscription and forget the conversion to F2P?
I don't think it will go over well with future subscribers as you release more and more content that they still have to spend points on instead of being included with the subscription. I do think that will happen.
After all, we have seen super boosters behind an extra fee despite paying a mandatory subscription. It isn't too far a stretch to see that the monthly stipend of points for subscribers has to be for something. It is obvious there will likely be more and more to buy that will be over the monthly stipend and impossible to save the stipend for all or even most.
Eventually, subscribers won't even be getting a good deal at that rate. It would be better to stay under the current system then.
Look, "free to play" is supposed to be a way for customers to have options and to feel they are getting a good deal so they will pay you for that deal. It's supposed to be defined by the removal of the mandatory subscription in favor of direct purchase of content and temporary statistical boosts with, perhaps, and optional subscription.
You're allowing us some options, but they are expensive, not to mention the things we have to buy back after they were taken away.
You're still leaving the subscription as a mandatory fee for content, rather than for exclusive services and free play of the purchasable content.
You're treating game content that is currently, and should always be, permanent as if it were a repeatable purchase of a temporary statistic boost.
I'm sick of this. I've had enough.
F2P should be fair to both the people who buy content piecemeal with one time purchases and the subscribers, but you are clearly not being very fair to non-subscribers and blatantly ripping off veterans who choose to buy content individually.
Your system even leaves huge holes where you can ripoff subscribers eventually.
If nothing else, every piece of content should be available through a fairly priced one time purchase of permanent access to it while services, such as character renames and transfers and global channel access and forum posting ability, are restricted to subscribers only and perhaps temporary licensees.
This is not fair to your veteran customers who are the reason you still have jobs, let alone future customers.
This isn't even fair to your subscribers who will have a constantly reduced pool of possible teammates for exclusive content. How many people can you guarantee they will have to be able to run all that new incarnate content now and in the future?
That's a big chunk of the game that non-subscribers can ignore and can't keep them busy and paying or even give them incentive to subscribe for because they lose it if they stop subscribing and it is supposedly "optional" and not required for any of the content they do have access to. Why would they subscribe for more unnecessary grind and more challenges that feel the same as challenges they already have access to? Why would they continue to subscribe once they experienced the story? Are you sure another grind is enough to hold their interest?
Why can't you just make fun content and sell it to us. Sell us more costume options, more stories, new zones, revamps to old zones and all sorts of content.
Don't force us to subscribe for it or you'll end up with no more subscribers than you already have, those already willing to pay a subscription for more of the game than those in the future will have to pay a full $15 for. What looks like less content for the same amount of money doesn't look very enticing to those who didn't find $15 worth the entire game as P2P.
I'm a veteran.
I'm disappointed in the prices.
I'm perturbed at the subscription only content instead of just services and a stipend.
I'm just plain angry at the loss of content I already have, especially my current characters.
I'm not going to subscribe to CoH Freedom. I'm not even going to spend any money the way this looks.
In fact, I think I'll probably just uninstall your greed-machine and hope that others do the same.
I'm sorry, but I say no to your scam.
I will not suffer unfair treatment, price gouging and lack of the best content simply because I am smart enough to not fall for your pseudo-subscription licensing and refuse to pay for unused subscription time.
You should have taken a page from the book of other f2P/freemium games that treat their customers fairly and make them WANT to spend rather than forcing their hand.
I don't WANT to spend money on your game if this is the direction you are taking, where my dollar is never enough to unlock content you make and never enough to buy even temporary access to services.
You obviously don't WANT my money or you could easily make me WANT to give it to you by giving me things to spend it on and at a fair price.
I'll take my money elsewhere and hope your game sees the light and changes, for the sake of every customer, or fails and teaches you a hard lesson about "biting the hand that feeds you".
P.S.
I loved Time Manipulation, even just the concept,but the fact that I won't have access t IOs or bonuses to make it more easily playable severely dampened my enthusiasm.
You may say "the game isn't balanced around inventions", but you constantly balance around that system and the incarnate system otherwise how can incarnate content even require incarnate powers? how can a challenge be maintained unless you constantly adjust to the level of the players instead of letting them overpower it like true "superheroes"?
Also, your game is stupidly laggy and inefficient with dumb stupid things going over the internet that should never do so. I saw a French "this player has quit the team" message in my chat box the other day, despite the fact that it was an automated string and I am playing on an English client. Why would that ever send a French string rather than a much shorter universal code for "quit team"?
Dumb. I can easily design a more efficient system that is still secure. and don't give me that "you would do it if you could" or "then do it" or "you can't because you haven't" because we all know there are a lot of different reasons why I haven't yet and the vast majority of them have nothing to do with lack of ability or dishonesty about that statement.
The point of the statement is that this game is worse than games that are even older than it or the same age.
I've played WoW, o a laptop no less. I never ever had my character "rubber-band"(a.k.a. move back to a previous position or to the position that the server says "no, you are here") in WoW simply because they had the obvious idea to eliminate the obvious cause of rubber-banding.
Their game obviously is doing quite well still, many thanks likely to their emphasis on performance rather than unnecessary proprietary complexity that nobody would even want to copy because it is so bad.
I'm letting my time run out and not coming back unless there are some major changes to make me feel welcome and my money feel wanted rather than demanded. -
Quote:I think a truly gold glow look would be awesome, but even the ouroboros portal looks more yellow.Originally Posted by FlashToo
The one question that remains: Is its uncustomized appearance, as the coloring of O-portals and the inventory icon of Temporal Sands salvage has been suggesting for long before the set existed, gold?
The teaser video and screenshot(the one I've seen) seem to imply a default green/white coloring for Time Manipulation powers.
I'm not a fan of green, plus it doesn't scream "Time" to me, but white or purple are good looks in my opinion. I actually was expecting white and/or purple as the defaults considering the nature of time and the implications of those colors.
Anyway, I just want plenty of color customization for this set, maybe a few alternate animations if they're feeling generous.
Note:
I'm definitely pretty happy with the powers and what they do so far. I've moved on to the visuals.
I can't wait to play it. -
@Arcanaville
When are they going to offer you a job?
I don't want them to though because you wouldn't be able to share all the juicy statistics and be our "this is broken" advocate then. It's just an obvious thought.
Edit:
Or, maybe you are already employed by them and I just missed the memo. -
Quote:I really hope it is that strong and yet balanced.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I believe I called Time Manipulation, when I first saw it in closed beta "an undeserved gift from the gaming gods." Its amazingly strong, but not quite game-breakingly strong, so I will feel very safe rolling one and enjoying its almost ludicrous strength knowing that once it goes live it will be relatively safe from the nerf bat.
It is definitely a strong competitor to Kinetics and Rad, but its primary advantage is that it seems a better solo and leveling set for most skill level players. It actually feels like the mutant love child of trick arrow, radiation, and pain.
I absolutely love the concept and really want the power to go with it.
I'm still worried about what the durations, recharges and endurance costs will be, but I am less worried if you are impressed by it.
Edit:
I actually solo a lot, as I prefer, so this is very good news indeed. -
Quote:I wish I knew what you were talking about in regards to willpower, but I'm left scratching my head, "Cassandra?".Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't think any one power in the set could be considered, on its own, overpowered. I will say, however, that I had the same Cassandra problem with Time Manipulation that I did with Willpower, so I'm just going to do what I did with Willpower: roll one and enjoy it.
If Time Manipulation is relatively easy to use(compared to things like the powers of kinetics or trick arrow that keep you almost too busy to attack), like willpower is compared to the less friendly energy aura, then I will be very happy with it and enjoy it no matter what anybody says.
I don't bow to others opinions, least of all when they whine about a set being too common for them to use despite them liking what it does. Why do people torture themselves by avoiding what they like for the sake of being supposedly "different" and actually being identical to other crazy people? -
@Narkor
Shut it.
Seriously, you're whining about a single power versus a whole other archetype.
Widows get mez protection up to brute and scrapper levels, defenses up to the defense soft cap with up to 60% resistance at low health to everything but psionic(which they have a lot of by default), stealth that rivals stalkers, all the previous in auto powers or toggles that are always on, good melee attacks that do toxic damage which is hard to defend against and ranged single target AND AoE damage that uses a type of damage that isn't commonly resisted or defended against at all.
You put Mind Link on top of those already awesome benefits with the already awesome survivability and it's already overkill. It's too much so it gets a longer recharge that you can't easily affect. The fortunata version is even longer recharge than the night widow because of their benefits over the night widow.
Mind Link is meant to be a hard to use buff/AoE panic button.
Mez protection alone is a game changer that Time Manipulation gets none of. A simple minion can stun a Time Manipulation character. Based on that alone you should shut up.
That sounds pretty epic to me even if Mind Link isn't the way you want it.
Also, you seem to think "epic" means "best archetype ever", but, despite how strong the widow is, it is only "epic" in so far as it has more utility than other archetypes and needs to be unlocked.
It is still balanced along with every other archetype as it should be.
Now, Time Manipulation is no better or worse than Radiation Emission or Kinetics, so why aren't you whining about them as well?
Just look at Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. Those can provide survivability rivaling what the widow has so why not whine about them?
What about the fact that Stealth plus a stealth proc IO is better than Mask Presence is alone for a widow?
Just stop whining for a nerf on a set that they are a lot harsher on than you will ever be, especially when you'll be whining for it to be buffed as soon as you play it and find it lacking something your widow has(like mez protection).
Now, can we get back to discussing the set on its own merit instead of trying to compare them using anecdotes instead of facts to destroy a set that is mostly how it should be?
Edit:
As for Time Manipulation, I'm pretty happy with what I see.
I really was hoping it would rival Radiation Emission for utility and strength because that is the only buff/debuff set I will ever use with it as good as it is.
I just hope all the powers will not be too difficult to use with most of them being clicks that need to be refreshed often. I still want and need to attack in there somewhere, not just debuff.
I am concerned about recharge of the powers and duration along with endurance cost though.
I really hope they have long enough duration to be useful for an entire spawn and can at least be made short enough recharge with SOs to be used every spawn.
We can only put one power on auto-click, so I hope these won't be a micro-managing nightmare like Robots/Force Field Masterminds were until the single target buffs were made AoE(though they still can be a mess).
Also, please do not balance these powers with a single IO in mind. They need to be perfectly playable with good old normal SOs. You should be able to solve the issues of the build at level 50 with plain SOs.
This is especially important with the restrictions of the invention system with Freedom.
P.S.
I love being a "crapper"(scrapper/corruptor) and getting into melee range to debuff, buff and deal damage. That is a really fun playstyle(partly because of the risk) and I am very glad to see the developers supporting it with this set. -
Quote:For me, it's the sleek simple design that sets Ghost Widow apart. It's not too busy(like ulterior and exo proto and even stealth options are busy) and relatively uniform in theme without being to flashy. Her outfit is just subtle and makes sense as looking functional. Her outfit even tops her more human alternate Belladona Vetrano.Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Can we call it? Is it safe to say that Ghost Widow is the single most compelling character design in the game, as voted by the COH forums? Reading through all the posts, I don't think we can make any conclusions about single best Male character design, but Ghost Widow appears to get the trophy for "Favorite Design" and "Favorite Female Design" by a pretty wide margin.
Wonder if it's possible to identify a "Favorite Male Design"? Or a 2nd favorite female design, since GW ran away with the top spot.
I like the new look for Mother Mayhem as well. It fits her well with the slutty look that suits her desire to be "loved by everyone", whether they want to or not.
My actual favorite female character design is Numina. I like the semi-transparent look very much, and she also has a relatively simple functional outfit. Gravity powers are just cool too(if I remember correctly that she has them).
As for favorite male design, it has to be Tyrant-Emperor Marcus Cole in his golden armor. It really suits his actions and personality while also being one very nice outfit, which looks functional yet again. I would love those gauntlets and shin-guards around his forearms and shins for my own character as well as the chest-plate.
Why can't we have rather simple and smooth metallic armor pieces like that?
It would be awesome especially if we had a lot of texture options for putting something like metallic versions of the chest emblems on both the chest-plate and gauntlets and shin-guards.
I would so pay for that in the new Paragon Market immediately.
"Just take my money, please just give me those costume pieces! I'm begging you!"
I'm definitely a sucker for simple-fancy outfits that look like they would actually be comfortable and easy to fight in. That's why I use the metallic tights most common, fancy and shiny yet simple and comfortable(I imagine it as a sort of liquid metal skin). I also love sleek non-segmented armor pieces.
Edit:
This is what I absolutely NEED:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/w/images//0/0a/Tyrant.png
That armor is absolutely amazing. Maybe the shoulders are a bit bulky, but I want the chest-piece, gauntlets(or are they bracers?) and shin-guards, without being stuck with the leather boots underneath on any of those pieces please(I want my own under-layer).
I would love to put them on the current segmented full metallic tights, or a new non-segmented version(yes please).
Please!!!!!????? Pretty please with sugar on top and a cherry!?
Edit 2:
I actually like the way the metallic tights look most with reflections off as a graphical option. It looks more like actual metal, more of that "matte metal" look you(Noble Savage) were posting about(in my opinion). I prefer that metallic look over anything else, with a close second being the widow tights that don't change with reflection settings but seem slightly too shiny so that you lose the detail of the contours.
I would love the same sort of "shine" of the basic metallic tights to be applied to those smooth armor pieces like those Emperor Cole-Tyrant has if/when we get them.
Pleas and thank you from the bottom of my heart if I can at least purchase these armor pieces in a booster/paragon market a.s.a.p. for use with metallic tights. -
Quote:You are wrong.Originally Posted by slainsteel
I added in poison dart to add another DPS power; since the build is at over 200% recharge, I can afford to have a longer attack chain, having another DPS power should help my DPS to go higher than what it would have been with just Subdue->Dominate->Gloom
More recharge reduction allows you to have a "shorter" attack chain.
You lose DPS if you have more than one power recharged and choose to use the weaker one.
There is a reason people keep telling you that Subdue>Dominate>Gloom is all you need. It is ALL YOU NEED.
You can get Aid Self back in if you ditch Maneuvers(the leadership pool) and ditch Total Domination. Those are unnecessary and not very helpful as I said above.
By the way, your build is NOT soft-capped to defense.
My builds are soft-capped to all positions easily by level 40 without Mind Link, but your build is lacking AoE defense and really shouldn't be when you took more defense buffing powers than I did.
Completely remake your build from scratch. Use our builds as guides.